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I've thought making this thread for a couple of days but haven' had the time... This thread is kinda to talk about what we do in the offseason and what we need to do. To get this thread going, a couple of questions........ What do we do about the closer role? Are we happy with Joe Bo? Do we HAVE to make a move to keep up with Miguel Cabrera and the suddenly awesome Detroit lineup? LET'S GET IT ON!!!!! 
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I'll start... Quote:
What do we do about the closer role? Are we happy with Joe Bo?
Personally, Yes. Something is to be desired about the closer role, don't get me wrong, I love Joe Bo and the way he closed games (sometimes  ) but, with the AL Central making the biggest splash in FA so far, I don't think we are doing much. What about Kobayashi? Can he do it? I dunno, he's unproven (In America).....Do we toss Tony Sipp in the mix?
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Do we HAVE to make a move to keep up with Miguel Cabrera and the suddenly awesome Detroit lineup?
Yeah, I'd like to see a big move, a trade, a FA signing...something. But I really really wanna see Trevor Crowe. If Lofton does come back, I wanna see Crowe in LF. Sizemore has locked up CF (Crowe's original pos.) and I think Crowe would just make this an awesome outfield... 
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Is Barfield part of the indians plans next year now that Cabrera has come up ? Marta gonna work out, Marta gonna stay healthy, seem when he plays AAA he can stay healthy, moves up to majors and get hurt. ? Was Carmona a one year wonder ?, can he become consistant we dont know that from him, We better have a back up plan incase. Always sign bull pen arms, we do need to look at our options at closer, just to see what there, I to like Joe Bro....but every season 90% of the teams must look. Cliff Lee & K.Shoppach for Jason Bay....Wow....If we make that bad I might have to buy my Pirate friend supper, i'll feel bad like we stole him....Supper will be at Mcdonalds but it's supper non the less. I like Shoppach, will hate to trade him but it's like passing up a night of cards & pizza with the guys for a night with Jessica Simpson....Ya dont pass it up.... If we trade Shoppach what options do we have, sure probebly alot of back catchers we can signs, but who's catching in Buffalo last year ? If the Yankees trade for Santana....How long until he is on the DL with arm problems...... Pitching, pitching pitching
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I don't like that Jason Bay deal. I'm not sure that he bounces back like everybody thinks he will. Giving up Shoppach and Lee is quite a bit. There are plenty of other Indians/Lee rumors going around. There was Lee and Gutierrez to Toronto for Alex Rios, Lee and Marte to St. Louis for Anthony Reyes and Bryan Anderson, Lee to Washington for Kearns and minor leaguer, etc.
As for catching depth, last year at Buffalo they went with a combination of Mike Rose and Yamid Haad. Perhaps one of those would work, but realistically you might be looking at rushing the development of Wyatt Toregas, who was at Akron last year and was added to the 40-man roster this offseason.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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good points....
so what do you think of the Tigers adding Willis & Caberea..Me personnelly, honestly Caberea was the deal, he can carry a team when he wants to, but as mentioned earlier, he has been known to have a weight problems, true or not I dont know but his weight has come up alot
willis to me was dumped off or tossed into the deal, big money paid to a hard throwing inconsistant pitcher, when on he can bring the heat, but his ERA was huge last year, to me they dumpped him while his value was somewhat avergae, but than again in baseball average starting pitching is valuble,
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Quote:
I don't like that Jason Bay deal. I'm not sure that he bounces back like everybody thinks he will. Giving up Shoppach and Lee is quite a bit.
I not only think Bay will bounce back, but who's to say Lee will either? I think that's a huge steal. Lee has already expressed that he wants to be a starter and will probably be a malcontent if he's pitching in the bullpen this year... but where exactly does he fit into our rotation for next year after it all falls into place? Sabathia, Carmona, Westbrook, Byrd, Sowers, Miller, Lofgren, etc. One way or another, Cliff is probably headed to the pen. This is all without mentioning that he's been mediocre at best for a while now and he's overpaid at $5m. I'd be glad to get rid of him.
Shoppach would be tougher to get rid of IMO but last year Victor proved he can get the job done in the basestealing game, making Shoppach's defensive abilities less desireable. If Shoppach were younger, it would make more sense to cling to him, because Victor is going to be 29 going into the season, but Shoppach himself will be 28. We'd need to go find an answer at backup catcher then, but that's much easier to do than finding a right handed power hitting left fielder.
IMO, when you can get a guy who should still be in his prime at 29 one year removed from an All-Star appearance for an extra arm that hasn't been good for a while and a backup catcher, you pull that trigger all day IMO. Plus... the fact that Bay and Grady are good friends can't be anything but positive for our chemistry.
We're... we're good?
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Winter Meetings: Pirates, Indians discuss five-player deal involving Bay Wednesday, December 05, 2007 By Dejan Kovacevic, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- That Jason Bay deal, all of a sudden, is alive. In a surprising twist, the Pirates and Cleveland Indians revived talks at the Opryland Hotel late last night and developed a framework for a five-player trade, Bay and catcher Ronny Paulino going to Cleveland for outfielder Franklin Gutierrez, catcher Kelly Shoppach and either starter Cliff Lee or a minor-league pitching prospect. The deal is not done. The sides are expected to continue talking late this morning. Most of yesterday, it seemed as if the Pirates and Indians were finished -- at least for the time being -- on the Bay front. But it is possible that Cleveland felt pressured to make a bold move when its American League Central Division rival, the Detroit Tigers, made the blockbuster acquisition of Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis from the Florida Marlins earlier in the day. Gutierrez, 24, is a right-handed hitter capable of playing center and right field who batted .266 with 13 home runs and 36 RBIs in 271 at-bats last season. The team employing him would own his rights until 2012. Shoppach, 27, is a right-handed hitter with some pop -- .261 average, seven home runs in just 161 at-bats -- and he is trapped in Cleveland behind Victor Martinez. His rights would be retained for four years. Lee, 29, would add another left-hander to a rotation that already has three. He won 14, 18 and 14 games in 2004-06 but dipped to 5-8 with a 6.29 ERA last season and was demoted to Class AAA at one point. He is guaranteed $10.5 million the next two seasons. More details to come this morning. First published on December 5, 2007 at 2:28 am http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07339/839260-63.stm
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Would be nice to keep Gutierrez. Log - who is this catcher coming back to us from the Pirates - any info?
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Whatever happened to the second player from that deal, Andrew Brown? I saw him in Spring Training a few years back, he looked good.
I want the Cleveland Browns to be my pallbearers so they can let me down for the last time.
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I know you weren't asking me (not trying to step on log's toes) but I looked up Paulino's numbers. He had 457 AB's, a .263 BA, 11 HR's, 55 RBI and 25 doubles. I don't know what type of defense he plays which is Shoppachs' forte. Not too shabby.
Last edited by DevilDawg; 12/05/07 11:24 AM.
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We have to make that trade...Paulino I believe, is very young, and we are giving up basically nothing. Lee, Gutz, and Shopvac for Bay and Paulino is a steal...
you had a good run Hank.
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Hmmm... that trade isn't nearly as favorable to me as the one just involving Bay. I don't know that trading Gutierrez is particularly what we want - we'd just be filling one outfield spot by trading another.
We're... we're good?
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Quote:
We have to make that trade...Paulino I believe, is very young, and we are giving up basically nothing. Lee, Gutz, and Shopvac for Bay and Paulino is a steal...
Giving up Gutierrez isn't basically nothing IMO. He's been a big prospect for a long time, he just had a hole in his swing that he seems to be fixing. Paulino is a fair substitute for Shoppach and gives us a bit more youth at catcher as well (even though he's still 26 himself)... I'd still have a hard time dealing Gutz though, he may develop into a star and we pretty much have him until he's 28-29.
We're... we're good?
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No problem Devil - thanks for taking the time to look it up. I probably should've made it an open question, rather than directing it towards log.
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Quote:
Gutierrez, 24, is a right-handed hitter capable of playing center and right field who batted .266 with 13 home runs and 36 RBIs in 271 at-bats last season. The team employing him would own his rights until 2012.
If Gute goes in the deal for Bay I would be pretty upset. I view him as a much better player then Bay maybe even by next season and especially down the road.
Bay's numbers in (538) AB's were:
AVG .247 | HR 21 | RBI 84 | OBP .327 | SLG .418
If you project Gute's numbers out to a similar number of AB's (542) they would be:
AVG .266 | HR 26 | RBI 72 | OBP .318 | SLG .472
What exactly are we gaining here? It seems like a Guitierrez for Bay swap wouldn't be that great of a deal so why would we throw in Lee and Shoppach as well? Franklin is a very good young outfielding prospect. Guys with his all-around game, at such a young age, don't grow on trees. Maybe I don't know enough about Bay but aside from Grady, Gute is the best young outfielder we have. We're swapping a player that's 5 years younger and probably has more potential, for one who had similar numbers. It doesn't make sense to me.
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Buster Onley reported at about 10:30 this morning that the deal was dead for Bay.
Eat it Phil...
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Quote:
Buster Onley reported at about 10:30 this morning that the deal was dead for Bay.
I heard that too. Also heard that the Pirates didn't think they were getting enough in the deal.
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Quote:
I heard that too. Also heard that the Pirates didn't think they were getting enough in the deal.
Those greeding little.....There not suppose to make out on the deal....we are 
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Paulino is a fine player, but if the deal involves Gutz, there is no way that I touch it. I'm okay with giving up Gutz if the return is a clear upgrade. Bay isn't. When they talked of including him for Alex Rios, I was fine with that. A big no on that proposed deal, for me.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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I am hoping we throw our name in the hat for Rios as well. I would not give up Gutierrez who could be a five tool player for Jason Bay. However, I would give him up for an All Star in Rios.
Throw the Jays a deal involving Gutierrez, Lee, Shoppach (if they're looking for a catcher) and a 2nd tier prospect like Brad Snyder for Rios and bullpen help.
Or... keep pursuing Bay with a deal that involves... Bay and Paulino for Shoppach, Lee, Francisco, and a minor leaguer.
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it's also been reported that the Mariners are talking with the Indians about Lee...
What could this be... We've already robbed them twice. Can we do it again?
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Quote:
it's also been reported that the Mariners are talking with the Indians about Lee...
What could this be... We've already robbed them twice. Can we do it again?
I heard we were interested in Ibanez.
Eat it Phil...
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That rumor has been out there and I REALLY hope its not true. I know, its probably a fair deal when I look at what Lee's actual value is. However, the main reason to trade Lee now is the weak free agent pitching market drives his price up, making it a good time to trade him. If we're only getting actual value, I'd rather just keep the pitching talent than a mediocre hitter.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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Quote:
it's also been reported that the Mariners are talking with the Indians about Lee...
What could this be... We've already robbed them twice. Can we do it again?
How many all-star venezualian shortstops do we need?
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Quote:
That rumor has been out there and I REALLY hope its not true. I know, its probably a fair deal when I look at what Lee's actual value is. However, the main reason to trade Lee now is the weak free agent pitching market drives his price up, making it a good time to trade him. If we're only getting actual value, I'd rather just keep the pitching talent than a mediocre hitter.
I totally agree, Id rather keep his arm for depth in case we have an injury to one of our starters.
We have been pretty lucky overall when it comes to our pitchers staying healthy.
Eat it Phil...
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I think we HAVE to get rid of Lee, Sowers, or Laffey. We MUST get a corner outfield that can provide us another big bat. Whether it be Jason Bay, Alex Rios, or someone else.
We have right now.... CC, Fausto, JW, Byrd, Laffey, Sowers, Lee, Miller, Lofgren, and Huff as quality pitchers and prospects. Laffey and Sowers are very similar and in my opinion one should be out the door. However, Lee may bring more suitors because he did win 18 games in 2005.
I say keep all 3 of the prospects for future spots in the rotations and depth, but try to move 1 of the 3 left (Sowers, Laffey, Lee) before Spring Training and then move anoth at the deadline if Lofgren or Miller has stepped foot in our major league clubhouse and provided more depth.
We really need to sure up our outfield. Crowe really fell apart early last season and this scares me. I figured we would already see him in a Tribe uniform. Francisco may be an everyday player, but he is still unproven and we need stability.
BTW, I really like what I hear about Josh Rodriguez. I think his play last year makes Andy Marte expendable and gives us a future option at 3B if Peralta or Blake find themselves on another team.
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All this Indians talk is useless, because when we add Johan Santana, the World Series title is going to stay in Boston 
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All this Indians talk is useless, because when we add Johan Santana, the World Series title is going to stay in Boston
You wanna crown them, then crown their...!
I want the Cleveland Browns to be my pallbearers so they can let me down for the last time.
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No offense, but I'm so tired of the Boston/New York talk its not funny. Instead of being about a baseball rivalry, all that has become is who can steal the most media attention. And the sports media in this country is so idiotic they lick it up like its going away. It would really be horrible to be a fan of the Blue Jays, Orioles, or Rays because baseball is so busy catering to two fan bases that they are royally screwing those three fans bases over by allowing this to go on.
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I'd do the Bay deal....I mean Bay has some pop which would give us another decent power hitter in the outfield with Sizemore. I don't see why people aren't willing to give up Franky Gutierezz (sp?), I mean we still have Ben Francisco in the wings don't we? Francisco has more power than Franky G if I'm not mistaken..
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You're mistaken. Gutz hit 17 HRs between Buffalo and Cleveland and that was in only 400 ABs. Add in 20 2Bs (a sign of power growth), and him hitting 25 HRs in the majors this year is a distinct possibility. Francisco had 15 HRs and 30 2Bs, while being a year older than Gutz and spending much more time at AAA. Basically, they put up comparable stats, but with Gutz being a year younger allows him to project much better (which doesn't include his superior defense, arm, and speed into the equation either). Francisco projects as a platoon player/4th OF while Gutz looks to have a much higher ceiling (Alex Rios high) and a downside as a 3rd OF contributor who is above-average defensively for a CF and MLB elite for a RF.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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Quote:
You're mistaken. Gutz hit 17 HRs between Buffalo and Cleveland and that was in only 400 ABs. Add in 20 2Bs (a sign of power growth), and him hitting 25 HRs in the majors this year is a distinct possibility. Francisco had 15 HRs and 30 2Bs, while being a year older than Gutz and spending much more time at AAA. Basically, they put up comparable stats, but with Gutz being a year younger allows him to project much better (which doesn't include his superior defense, arm, and speed into the equation either). Francisco projects as a platoon player/4th OF while Gutz looks to have a much higher ceiling (Alex Rios high) and a downside as a 3rd OF contributor who is above-average defensively for a CF and MLB elite for a RF.
AGREED GUTZ MUST STAY ON THIS TEAM!!!!
Unless we trade him for that Alex Rios guy you mentioned.
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If the Tribe could get Alex Rios, I do that in a heartbeat. Lee, Shoppach, and an OF prospect. Not sure what it would take but Rios is what we need!
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Quote:
You wanna crown them, then crown their...!
THEY ARE WHO WE THOUGHT THEY ARE....IF YOU WANNA CROWN THEM CHAMPIONS....CROWN THEM.....BUT THEY ARE WHO WE THOUGHT THEY ARE AND WE LET THEM OFF THE HOOK....
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All Pro
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If the Tribe could get Alex Rios, I do that in a heartbeat. Lee, Shoppach, and an OF prospect. Not sure what it would take but Rios is what we need!
I agree - I do this trade in a heartbeat.
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I like Shoppach, will hate to trade him but it's like passing up a night of cards & pizza with the guys for a night with Jessica Simpson....Ya dont pass it up....
I really don't think Shoppach is expendable; he's practically the best back-up catcher in baseball, and would start on many other squads.
Bay brings no more a guarantee than Cabrera takes to Detroit.
Hang on to Kelly,...work on better pitching.
You CAN pass on Simpson, if you're married,.... 
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[I really don't think Shoppach is expendable; he's practically the best back-up catcher in baseball, and would start on many other squads.
I agree but for a bit differnt of a reason. People think Shoppach has no future with V mart here but I think in the long run Victors uture will not be at catcher. I think at ome point in the not so distant future Martines will be stepping out from behind the plate. He is just too good of a hitter to have his career cut short but they physical wear and tear that a catcher takes on his body. Porbably the only reason he hasnt already is the log jam we have at the first base and DH position. I think if we didnt have Travis,, Martines and Garko would be platooning at !st and DH already.
JMO
KING
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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I really don't think Shoppach is expendable;
I agree.
I would really like to see a way to start him and move Martinez to another position....like first or possibly left....if not DH.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
Quote:
I really don't think Shoppach is expendable;
I agree.
I would really like to see a way to start him and move Martinez to another position....like first or possibly left....if not DH.
Can't DH whilst we have Travis,...too slow (?) for the outfield, so he's gotta play first. Can Garko play the outfield or third ?? This is not a bad problem to have, especially if we get to keep Lofton, and move Blake back to right -- and that really ain't necessary since he tore it up at 3rd last year,....(at some point you have to trade the bat for defense...) geez, hate to take Gark's off first.
Not a bad set of problems to have,....
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Can Garko play the outfield or third ??
No. Not just no, but without a doubt in my mind, no. Garko was a poor catcher and started as a poor 1B, but worked his way up to average by the end of the season (below average range, above average at short-hops). Garko is a 1B for the rest of his career.
I cannot understand why people have this infatuation with moving Vic and Peralta. Their defense isn't Gold Glove caliber, but it is far from killing the team. Plus, these guys are worth the money they are getting for playing that position. Offensively, Vic is average at 1B and Peralta would be average at 3B. If you leave each at their true position, they are far above-average in value. When you are a small-market team you have to maximize value to compete (in this horrifically flawed system that we are forced to deal with).
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