DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Worst trade ever...

4 games (25% of a NFL season) 700 yards/(175 per game) 2 TDS 3 INTS 58% completion % 69% RTG. 37.4 QBR.

NFL = Not For Long

I think you are a nice guy, but the NFL isn't DawgTalkers. Teams would still give up multiple firsts for Watson. Please don't delude yourself w/the nonsense that passes for football talk on this board.

28 th draft pick to the 9th.

What would you trade for Wilson?

Wilson? I thought you were talking about Watson.

Their performances this season have been pretty similar. I can see how easy it would be to confuse the two.

Actually that's not accurate - I know Watson is coming back from a 2 year absence and this last game was in bad weather - but Wilson has a QB Rating of 81.6 while DW is a little further back at 69.3.... I don't believe any of us on the board no matter our feelings about Stefanski or any of the players believes Watson will be basement dwelling in the ratings next year, but to your point above, I just wanted to point out that Wilson and Watson are not playing at a similar level this year so far.

That's not as far apart as you may think it is. I don't disagree with you about the future. I was speaking in the present tense.

What's more worrying is that his video tapes from these 4 games are probably worse than his stats. Just watch..

I'm by no means a QB expert but I noticed following;
(I also listened to those with better knowledge then me...)

Just so there is no misundetsanding. I judge him as a potential elite QB who's maybe rusty, not like a 3nd round draft pick or a second rated leftover FA.

1) Maybe contrary to my earlier belief his thinking process has so far been slow. Sometimes our receivers is wide open and he simply don't react fast enough to make a throw.

2) His primary target so far is Amari Cooper but when he's covered Watson often fail to readjust and find another target on time. He simply isn't aware of what happens outside his eye focus. Either slow thought process or maybe he hasn't have the ability to think outside his initial plan?

3) This is the most worrying part. His accuracy in these first four games is average at best but what's worse is that his arm velocity looks mediocre compared to other elite QBs like Allen, Burrow and Mahones.

Rusty? Lost his mojo? Bad luck?

Maybe Berry and our scouts has overestimate his ability by looking to much on his stats without taking everything into context and then they was drawing the wrong conclusions out of pure desperation?
So far it doesn't look good.

I wonder what his SPARQ score was coming into the draft?

Here it is.....

Quarterback

1. Trevor Knight, Texas A&M (96.2)

2. Joshua Dobbs, Tennessee (87.9)

3. Deshaun Watson, Clemson (81.4)

4. Davis Webb, California (79.4)

5. Mitch Leidner, Minnesota (75.3)

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2017/03/2017_nfl_draft_sparq_ratings_w.html

Watch the tapes. That's all i'm saying....

Actually I was trying to give you some data regarding your supposition that the FO gives too much credit to stats. I'm not trying to indicate whether you are right or wrong. I do know however that they have relied on SPARQ scores heavily in the past. That's how we ended up with Anthony Schwartz. There was nothing about his tape that indicated he was worthy of anything close to a third round pick except for his straight line speed and his SPARQ score. SPARQ scores are stats personified.

Okay...

Sorry. My bad.

I’m just worried when I look at the tapes because it doesn’t look good. I will give DSW time improve himself until week3 next season but after that I think what we see is what we get.

Burrow's arm strength should not be even remotely mentioned with Allen and Mahomes...more like Andy Dalton or even Colt McCoy. It's either a dink a dunk or a chuck with Burrow...he's blessed to have those weapons to throw to. While Watson is struggling thus far, his arm strength is still significantly better than Dwayne Haskins Burrow.

I agree that’s a canon ball but I say to you the same thing. Watch his tapes. It doesn’t look good and I saw plenty of bad throws when he was unbalanced and only could rely on his upper body strength.

Look at Allen and Burrow and compare. Huge difference in accuracy and arm speed when they’re under pressure.

It seems vers didn't wish to bother to take a couple of minutes to show that watson is a finisher. I will help him out with that.

He has had 8 4th quarter comebacks and 10 game winning drives. I would consider that a finisher.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/comeback.cgi?player=WatsDe00

If there is any cause for concern in any of that it would be that all of those came in 2018 and 2019 including the 2019 playoffs. He had none of those in his 2020 season. He did however throw for 33 td's and only 7 int's in 2020 with a completion percentage of 70.2%.

I think looking at things under a microscope can blur the QB watson has been in the past. He has been very good.

I'm not trying to argue w/you. I was just replying to what you asked us to do. I do think it's hard to argue that the guy doesn't have a strong arm after watching that particular throw. It's not like you have a strong arm for just one throw and then it goes away.

We all hope he’s an elite QB that can elevate our receivers and TE. It’s from that perspective I judge him.

Look at his last drive against NOS. That’s not what you expect from a $230 player. Cleveland is freaking cold in December and January and DSW doesn’t look like a cold weather guy. I really hope I’m wrong but to succeed in the play offs he needs to be at his best when the climate is close to Alaska level.

Also because I know you are knowledgeable just look at the tapes how he prefer Cooper in his first reading and seems to block out his second and third options. Maybe a coincidence but so far it’s worrying.

If you prove me wrong I’m more than happy because in the end we’ll want the same thing. Success. Maybe I’m just more skeptical than you.

I hate to make this comparison but it's entirely appropriate in repsonse to your post.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player_id=MayfBa00

This guy with 7 4th Q comebacks and 8 game winning drives. And whether folks like him or not I don't think many or any call him a finisher.

It's exactly what I would expect from a $230 player.

Sorry couldn't resist, found it amusing in what has been a busy day for me.

I was asking about both

You said teams would give up multiple picks for Watson

so...

What would you trade for Watson?

Key word is past. Look at Russell Wilson. If I’m not mistaken he had DeAndre Hopkins until 2020 as his primary target. Maybe that helped?

Arm strength is a very over rated metric regarding QBs.
Kinda of a funny thing. Burrow is 2nd in the NFL in passing yards
And TDs. You dont dink and dunk to 4000 yds .Dink and Dunk ? Can you define dink and dunk?
Cause dink and dunk has Been the Browns passing offense
All year. If arm strength was everything then why was EJ Manuel
Akili Smith Jamous Winston David Carr Brandon Weeden
Ryan Leaf Todd Marinovich all busts?
Accuracy and anticipation and reading coverages supersede
Arm strength.

So you are comparing game winning drives of a QB who has had 12 years playing in the NFL to a QB that has played a full 3 seasons in the NFL? Yeah.... no.

I think you're trying way too hard to discount what watson has done as an NFL QB. You are right that it was in the past and nobody knows for sure that's what he will be 100% in the future. But after 700 days not playing in a game I think you're expecting too much too soon. And basing an evaluation of him under that microscope is premature.

I agree. That’s why week 3 next season will be my final judgement day. After that it’s hard to give him more excuses.

On a side note. Change play caller/HC and I think his chances to succeed will increase. Maybe another unpopular opinion….

All you have to do is watch a Bengal game to see what I am talking about. His YAC with those weapons is ridiculous. He gets in trouble when he needs to put some stank on a throw...especially to the sideline. His long ball is usually a 50/50 throw to Chase or Higgins that they win with ease or is to a wide open WR...wide open because of the embarrassment of weapons they have at his disposal. Dink over the middle...dunk to the LOS to a WR...chuck it up and let his stud WRs go get it. No significant arm strength.

Allen has a cannon....but he didn't get accurate - and still isn't. What he did get is a Diggs who catches the trash that gets thrown so often...same with Gabe Davis.

Look at the WR room of the teams in the playoff hunt...we've not been in that company STR.

I don't know that it's an unpopular opinion per say. I can understand why people may see it that way.

I've seen the Bengals play with Burrow. From what I've seen Burrows game is much
Like Bradys. Timing and anticipation throws. Burrow has enough
Arm strength. It's not a rocket arm like Mahomes
Or Allen but Burrow is every bit as good as them.
If I rewind Burrow has outplayed Mahomes in 3 match-ups.

Smh sorry Vers...

What would you trade for Wilson?

Not much. But, Wilson didn't miss nearly two years of football. Wilson has played like crap all year. His replacement in Seattle is playing better than Russ did last year. Wilson also has had many former teammates call him out. Wilson has his own office instead of having a locker like the rest of the guys. Wilson has called out his OL and coaching staff.

Look, like I said earlier..........I like you and it's okay if you disagree w/my take. You won't resort to lies and insults. It's just a difference of opinion. If you really believe that we could only get a 3rd rounder for Watson.....so be it. However, I don't believe that is true at all. Different opinions. No big deal.

I know you didn't ask me. But didn't want anything to do with Wilson b/c I knew the price would be too high for a QB in his 30s and needing a new contract. My opinion before the season, Wilson is on the down slope of his career mainly because he's in his 30s, not bigger body QB that can taken the hits. He's had injuries that has kept him out of games the past few years due to taking lots of hits from running and having a bad line. Seattle rode him like teams have ran RBs into the ground.

I would maybe trade a first rounder for him, but that would be b/c i was desperate for a QB and trying to make a name for myself as a GM. My discussions with Seattle would've been me offering a 2nd rounder or less b/c I knew Russ and his agent would want to hold the team hostage for a big contract. I wouldn't do it for that reason, b/c I have/had a feeling I would only get 1 to 2 possible great years from him, then by year 3 he's a shell of his former self b/c of his past. That would be the issue b/c his agent i would assume, would want a 4-6 year contract paying him franchise starter money. I would know that would screw the team over in the future with that crazy contract. It's just not worth it. He was already showing signs of regressing while at Seattle.

I'm going to make a statement that is totally an opinion, but I feel is true. If we get 75% of the QB Deshaun Watson was when he last played for Houston it will be better than any QB play we've had since Bernie was in his prime and what's that; 35 years ago.

Brutal. Let's hope it gets better!

He has played in three games after sitting out nearly two years and one of those games was in perhaps the worst weather conditions in Browns history and this guy is ranking him w/qbs who have played all year. Talk about cherry picking.

I agree with Vers - using a 3 game sample size after a two year absence has little value. It is all about next year.

Bad weather didn't stop some posters criticizing former players - and it is interesting that cold weather (even extreme cold) statistically has relatively modest impact on passing stats (google it - there are lots of articles) wind however has a huge impact.

www.boardroom.tv/how-does-cold-weather-affect-nfl-games/

No doubt that it's the wind rather than the cold that makes playing football really hard.

First of all, Watson has played 4 games not 3. Second of all, the Saints played in the exact same weather conditions but were able to overcome it for the win. Third and most importantly; if you're going to spend years claiming excuses for injury, poor o-lines, or 7 different coaches in 5-years is inexcusable then a self-imposed hiatus (suspension and quitting on a team) that was rewarded with a 230M guaranteed contract shouldn't be an allowable excuse for weeks of poor performance either and for sure not the weather. IMHO, Watson being rusty was expected at a certain level. Being 41st in passer rating after 4-games is a poorer start than most have expected with his predetermined skill set. I'm sure that Watson will improve as time goes on and he becomes accustomed to the speed of the game but that doesn't relieve him of his lack of improvement over the first 4-games. I think that it's safe to say that most didn't think Watson would get off to this poor of a start. Of course, he will be compared to the play of the other QB's as he should be - after all, he's supposed to have elite status. The hope of every Browns fan is Watson takes a step forward this week against the Commanders. The Browns are paying for an elite QB, the fans just want to see some of that elite play on the field. It's week five playing with the best OL in football, the top RB duo, and a best route running #1 WR - it's time to see some steps toward what the Browns are paying Watson for. That's not "cherry picking" either.

"Deshaun has no right to be playing football at all (indefensible no matter what); but since he is, I'll pick a few stats that show he's the worst QB in the NFL."

Umm, yeah, that's cherry-picking.

Is that what y'all dawgs saw? The worst QB in the NFL??