OR IS IT???

Please note possibly in vane but I wish to clarify this is not a Watson vs Mayfield thread. This is about the trade orchestrated by Stefanski and obliged by Berry and the Haslams.

Why would I dare state this as not only a bad trade but possibly the worst trade in franchise history.

First I would like to put to the record a few things.
1. Watson when coming into the NFL I championed him on these draft board threads - No I wasn't a we got to get him guy. But when reading how he will not make it in the NFL I made a good case on why I thought he would succeed.

2. The up and comings of FANTASY has tainted the scales on Offense vs Defense. Lets put one thing straight - DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS! Not QBs. I know, I know for years we were touting the position as the HOLY GRAIL. It is without a Doubt the most important position on the team but case in point.

Bears Dikta teams - it was the defense not Ed McMann a good QB but not elite.
Tampa Bay first SB...it was the Defense and running game that won the championship not Don Johnson.
Ravens 2000 SB....it was the Defense not Dilfer....DILFER for crying out loud!

Although Stafford is probably a little better then the above QBs it was the Defense that got the Rams their championship last year.
Payton Manning in his last SB win great leadership but just a mere image of himself as far as talent goes but it was the Broncos Defense that won them a championship!
I'm sure you can find exceptions as their always are some. But to build a dynasty you got to do it by DEFENSE and an attention to the LOS both on O and D - quite frankly the OL as a Unit is more important for a championship than an ELITE QB.

Was Baker an Elite QB again no debate but I without a doubt believe he was of the caliber to win us a championship. But for those who will Insist on tearing him a new hole. THEN DRAFT ONE.

Just cause we were the most inept franchise in drafting a QB that doesn't mean there isn't a Good QB out there to be had - nurtured and groomed from the draft.

So just how do you build a championship Defense. You do so from the draft. Its all about the LOS weather its with a 4-3 or a 3-4 Talent on that line or edges is what you got to get and when you get one they are good for 10 years.

Two variables in my mind give me the gall to state this was the worst trade ever.

1. The character of Watson, yes he looks like the boy next door until you get to the "BUT" and its a big BUTT! And it does mean a lot. He's already settled with 20 something of the young ladies - so there is no question in my mind that he was terribly wrong in his actions. A questionable suit was shooed away cause she was wrong and there was no settlement. You going to tell me a God Fearing young man will not have a hard tome following Watson to hell and back to win a championship???

2. 3 years of First round picks...a death sentence to any team. Let us say a team did such a haneous crime to the league and they would receive a "DEATH SENTENCE" from the league it probably would be in the form of losing 3 years of first round picks. Although a different era you can look at the Herschel Walker trade. The Vikings never recovered from that trade. I love my Browns so I hope we are not the NEW version of that scenario!!

So far we are 2-1 on Watson's return The two wins he was a none factor - Defense and special teams got the win. The One Loss was against the Bengals a team we ruled for the last two seasons this game we lost convincingly. He has a lot of rust to knock off.
Our O will have to dominate. We will see oh and the other fact that really bothers me. Is 2020 Watson had a SPECIAL YEAR and yet his TEAM was was 4-12. I also see us becoming a passing team. Stefanski will not beable to resist - guess who will become irrelevant. Nick Chubb - Hunt will be his kind of guy. Lets trade him in the off season might as well get a first or 2nd for him while we can. I love Chubb - I'm a OL guy who loves the run and play action. But I kid you not. Watch Stefanski request this from Berry.

So did we make one of the dumbest trades in football history? There is a big possibility. Ski is in my Crap house for sure in getting the ball rolling.

Please do not make this Baker vs Watson. Thank you in advance. You can mention their names just its not my debate message.

Have a merry Christmas and part of my bitterness is my heart is getting weaker and weaker - Transplant is out of the question as I don't have the multi millions need to over ride the fact I'm a poor candidate. Love you all!

This is the only portion of your post I take issue with. I've seen nothing to indicate this is the way any of this went down.

And welcome back tab. It's nice to see you posting again. Hope all is going better for you as of late.

Writers priviledge Pit. But Baker was never Stefanski's guy. He tried to mold him into his QB and the way he orchestrated this was by his usage of Baker when injured. And he had a problem saying "HE's MY GUY" anyways its my view take it or in your case leave...it doesn't really change the thread but I truly believe this and think the lowest of him for doing this to our team! Et Tu Brutus kind of guy! him not yo9u...lol

I don't discount what you're saying but by that same token it was Dorsey who drafted Mayfield. So by your logic he wasn't s guy selected by this FO either. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this portion of your post.

Its not the drafting Its the usage of the player that makes him good or bad. Stefanski cannot adjust - he couldn' adjust his playbook to Baker. He can't adjust game day. Its why I think he is not a good Coach at all...AT ALL!
jmho

I can certainly see some of Stefanski's weaknesses and it did seem to me the longer Baker was here the more Stefanski tended to move away from his strengths. But I also don't think Baker is or was a complete QB. I don't think you can be dependent on having your entire playbook comprised only based on what a QB does well without expecting him to evolve into a complete QB. And there is certainly some truth that a coach needs to be able to develop talent. There's also truth that you have to draft players with the ability to be developed. It's not an all or nothing proposition. I present to you Anthony Schwartz.

There was nothing about his college career that gave any cause to draft him where he was chosen other than straight line speed and his SPARQ score.

EO, I don't like him at all as a person, but I think DW could get us there. I don't particularly think he's any better than Baker. Hell, one week, Baker plays like he's on fire, and the next, like he's a third-string backup. DW will have his ups and downs too. I hope he at least returns to form enough to get something out of him if he doesn't work out for whatever reason. As far as the trade itself, I felt it was horrible, not blockbuster, not even close. Now had DW not had the off-field issues, I would still grade it as bad just because we gave up way too much for what appears to be the same player stats-wise. And I get that DW passed the eyeball test @ the Texans, but he hasn't here yet IMO. So I feel a little nervous, but I think the rust or whatever will clear itself up during the offseason.

So this is how I feel about the trade in particular:

1) We reached and overpaid for a similar but commonly agreed better player.
2) We took a dump on Baker; not cool.
3) We trashed Pittsburg for Big Ben, then signed a sexual predator of our own. Again, not cool.
4) Who knows what all those pics will end up costing us?
5) And finally, the part that really pissed me off is that they shoved a predator up our asses and just expected us to be cool with it.

TBH, I'm good watching but disliking our QB. But I think I'm going to need results next year, like playoffs at minimum, or I might hang it up with this team. And that sucks because players have never mattered that much to me in the sense of rather I love this team or not, but now they do. And weighing the fifty years I've been a die-hard fan against the DW trade, it sucks to be in this position. DW's rapeyness does not matter to some guys; they want to win at all costs, and I understand why. But for me, it's more complicated than just wanting the shiny new toy. But at least I got a taste of watching him now, know that I can without cringing relentlessly, and can look forward with the hope that he's everything they say he is going to be for us in the future.

DW is better.

I go for the "or is it?" portion of the question.

Only time will tell. At this point it has the potential to be a bad trade. It also has the chance to be a great trade.

As for Stefanski's ability to adjust, I think we are seeing the adjustment taking place now. Maybe part of the problem was some players inability or unwillingness to adjust?

I know this won't be popular, but maybe Chubb isn't the type of lead back that best suits the game we are going to play with Watson at QB. Chubb is a negative in the passing game, and even in the running game he isn't a one cut, hit the hole runner like Hunt, or even D Johnson. If we run more RPO's, I am not sure Chubb is our guy. He isn't going to be able to string out along the line looking for his hole.

I’ll reserve judgment until this time next year or so. The rust factor has to be accounted for (and in theory Stefanski needs to get used to DW as well).

I am a little concerned that I’ve read his style doesn’t necessarily mesh well with Chubb’s, so I’ll keep an eye out for that.

It was a great trade. Why?

In 2021 they felt this team was ready to compete yearly for AFC North and then Super Bowls. What happened they saw a QB that was limited and a team in their same state pass their team because of their QB.

Bringing in Deshuan Watson gives them a QB that was considered a top 5 NFL QB that will help the team to be able to compete yearly for AFC North and then Super Bowls. Baker's limitations would have prevented the Browns from that.

While Watson's contract looks and feels bad right now. In 2 more years, it will start to look like a bargain. Watch what happens when Lamar Jackson, Joe Burrow, and Justin Herbert's contract are up.

Good to see you posting Eo.

The final grade on this trade will be in 3-4 years time. I agree with you the final grade has nothing to do with who they replaced - look how badly Baker has played elsewhere, that's one part of it that indicates that ultimately moving on was the right call. The question is the cost and player they moved on to.... This year was just a turd flushed down the crapper. We had a brief moment early in the season of "Daaaamn, Brissett is better than any of us thought, maybe ..... maybe". Then we lost 3 winnable games for a variety of reasons and Stefanski/Woods were chief amongst them - after that the season was always done. Maybe/Probably one of the reason's we saw so many players commenting negatively in the locker room, the realization this season was a waste.

Watson is knocking off the rust and improving each game. He's not really done anything truly remarkable or elite yet - but I think most think that level of play is coming. I think next year will tell us most of what we need to know - but truly, just like a draft pick, we got to give it 3 years.

And if Stefanski wastes Watson's talent, if the $1/4 Billion is a bigger impact on the cap than some keep saying, if some of our favorite players (Chubb and Garrett) don't get resigned when their contracts are up - some of that should be a factor, but the real litmus test is how good Watson is. Elite QB's are hard to land in the NFL. 23 years since the return has proven that, looking around the NFL at other teams shows us that. Give it time and eventually we'll probably mostly all agree one way or another.

Welcome back Tabber.. No evidence that Baker wasn't never a Stefanski guy. The year before, when Baker wasn't injured, he lit up the league.. so IMHO, Baker could execute the offense that Stefanski brought to bare. NOBODY does well injured the way he was. Not a QB anyway.

Having said that, and knowing the partnership that Berry and Stefanski have formed, I have no doubt that Stefanski agreed that an Upgrade was in order..

What I will never care for is the baggage that comes with Watson being worth what they gave up.,,, 3 first rounders and $230 million seems a bit much for a guy with that baggage. I'll also say that the way they handled Baker was Trashy.

I find it funny that Baker is still being paid, at least partly by the Browns. (Panthers also)

I doubt that Stefanski started this. I bet it was backroom conversation between Berry and Houston that brought it to light,, I'll be real happy if we win big with Watson, but no way will I ever be happy with how this came down and what he costs..

EO...it's good to hear from you..! I've been wondering how things are going for you and now that you have given us an update, you hang in there and keep fighting. EO, do your best to enjoy those things that matter the most. Merry Christmas to you and your family.

I also believe that Defense Wins Championships..something that became more evident once the Browns got into the regular season and were losing games by slim margins. While the Browns owner and management focused on improving the offense, I was concerned about the defense. Also, now that GM Berry's draft picks have had time to gain experience we have a better idea about Berry's ability to judge defensive talent.

Berry's draft picks have another year of experience under their belts...I ask the question, Are Berry's DEFENSIVE draft picks good enough to win a Championship..?

Concerning the other subject concerning QBs...Time will tell..!

Take care, mac

Nice to see you posted EO. Sorry to hear you're not doing well but hang in there I'll keep you in my prayers. I don't really want to debate whether we should have signed DW or not I've already given my opinion on the subject. One thing I will say again about the 3 1st round draft picks. We don't draft well in the 1st round anyway. Since we came back in "99 the only guys I can think of that were worth that pick were Myles and Joe Thomas. Some others were OK but didn't live up to being taken in round 1. It doesn't mean we wouldn't have hit on those 3 we traded away but our track record is lousy no matter who was doing the drafting. JMO Oh and Alex Mack too.

It is impossible to refute your take their. It feels illogical to "expect" that different FO guys in Cleveland can repeat the same failures over a 30 year period...yet we continue to do so. I believe Clem is on to something about the water/air/building in Berea.

There are exceptions to a rule, and your original post attempts to list 5 times where defense won a super bowl, but in 2022 the league is not on super bowl 6, they are on like 50 something years. Offense wins championships.
and defense
but Investing > in offense.

The trade may have been a waste. The Defense has cost this team the last 3 years. The offense didn't need much of an upgrade. jmho

Prayers up EO .. merry christmas

It's too early to tell if it was a great trade, but the rest of this post is spot on, especially that last sentence. You could almost see the panic when Harbaugh and some others spoke out against this trade. When it comes time for tight pockets Mike Brown to pay up, history indicates he won't.

The issue of 3 first round picks will probably hurt us. There are people saying that it won't because we've picked so many busts with the first rounders, but in the last 5 years we've had 7 first rounders and 5 of them are currently starting for the Browns.....Garrett, Njoku, Ward, Newsome and Wills. The other 2 were Jabril Peppers and BM.

Funny, I thought the same thing at the time. But I actually think it helped them make the decision... chew Jackson up and spit him out. There will be no contract unless he takes them to the promised land within the first two franchise tags.

Agree with the 1st rounders -- and even Peppers would have meant much more to this defense than OBJ ever did on the other side of the ball.

We need to flip the script next season and become a destination for FAs looking for a ring. If not, we'll fall firmly into the "puncher's chance" category for the next few years.

You're probably right. They don't want to get Flacco'd a second time.

Put the trade for DW side by side with the Ernest Byner for Micheal Oliphant trade,

I still think Byner/Oliphant was worse,
also, I think if you look back from this far along, that what the Browns got, for what ended up being that WR who went to the Falcons and ended up having/forcing Tom Brady's Patriots to overcome such a deficit in the Super Bowl.

At least in those two Byner and the WR won 2 playoff games in their career, Watson hasn't won 2 playoff games yet.

The Browns trade up for Trent Richardson Rb, in the year RG3 was drafted and later Kurt Cousins, the fact that the Browns didn't make that trade up for a pick be a pick of Ryan Tannehill, @b of the Titans, Who was right there for the taking... also comes to mind.

I'd guess that one of the Haslams, demanded they move on from all >>>>all all of the players who liked to dance and showboat from the 2020 team.
hmm. J. Landry, and R. Higgins and B. Mayfield are no longer on the Browns, and OBJ. Who else?
...
I don't like analytics, and I don't think the personalities of those from Harvard, )many politicians)
and many NFL greats, Terry Bradshaw, Mike Ditka, John Madden, Mean Joe Greene, Randy Moss, Mike Golic, Michael strayhan, Ray Lewis
Rob Gronkowski Jon Gruden, others.. there is somewhat of different personality traits on display from most Harvard individuals
and most NFL all time greats
and enthusiasm and a certain willingness to throw caution to the wind, in spite of analytics doesn't lead to one indiv. having the ultimate success on both the NFL Field,
and Harvard, in fact, I think it's almost mutually exclusive.
But, if Bo Jackson could play football and baseball in the same day, then never say never.

But the NFL and Harvard haven't mixed since Nineteen sixty five. = I don't like analytics.

If you look back at what the Browns got in trade for the pick that ended up being Julio Jones I don't even remember it but
here is a part from
Wikipedia on Julio Jones, ... if he had done this for the Browns he would have rivaled Myles Garretts greatness over the last few years.

Quintorris Lopez "Julio" Jones Jr. (/ˈhuːlioʊ/; born February 8, 1989)[1] is an American football wide receiver for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers of the National Football League (NFL). He played college football at Alabama, and was drafted by the Atlanta Falcons in the first round (6th overall) of the 2011 NFL Draft. He is regarded as one of the best receivers of the 2010s.[2]

After a productive rookie season, Jones recorded 1,198 receiving yards and ten touchdowns in 2012 and was named to his first Pro Bowl. After an injury-plagued 2013 season where he only played five games, Jones led the Falcons in receiving yards in 2014, and made his second Pro Bowl, beginning to develop a deep chemistry with team quarterback Matt Ryan.[3][4] Jones broke out the next season, leading the league in receiving yards and co-leading in receptions, both of his statistics ranking top five all-time in a season. After this season, he was named to his first All-Pro selection. In 2016, Jones again had a productive year, garnering another All-Pro selection, and helped to lead the Falcons to Super Bowl LI. Over the next three seasons, Jones amassed 4,515 yards, the most by any player during that span, including leading the league again in yards in 2018.

With the Falcons, Jones amassed 12,896 receiving yards, most by a receiver since entering the league,[5] and more than any receiver in the 2010s, with 12,125 yards during that span.[6] In doing so, Jones was invited to seven Pro Bowls, including six consecutive from 2014 to 2019, was a first-team All-Pro selection twice and was named second-team All-Pro three times.

Jones has been noted for having a rare combination of size (6 ft 3 in and 220 lbs), speed (40-yard dash in 4.39 seconds), catching ability, strength, leaping ability, and body control, which has drawn frequent comparisons to Calvin Johnson.[7][8] On November 11, 2018, Jones became the fastest player in NFL history to reach 10,000 career receiving yards.[9] On September 15, 2019, Jones became the all-time career receiving yards leader for the Falcons.[10] On October 5, 2020, Jones became the all-time career receptions leader for the Falcons. His career average of 91.9 receiving yards per game is the highest in NFL history, and as of 2021 he is tied for third all-time in career games with 100-yards receiving with 59 career games. [11][12] In 2021 after another injury-plagued 2020 season, Jones was traded to the Titans after reported disgruntlement with Atlanta's new front office.[13] After being released by the Titans in 2022, Jones signed with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

I just disagree. The trade of Paul Warfield to the Miami Dolphins was the worst trade in franchise history. Hands down.

I remember reading that during the 2017 draft after we took Myles, and that was the right thing to do, Hue Jackson called DW and said we were going to take him at #12. I don't know what happened after that, I think we traded down to get more picks, but obviously we never drafted him. What a colossal mistake that was looking back.

It's good to see ya around these parts, again, Eo.

It's a very risky trade
The Browns gave up 3 1st RD picks in exchange for potential.
Has a NFL team ever gave up 3 1st RD picks for a QB who's
Career record is around .500?

I agree - it's why he has good success on the initial drive of a game, and doesn't have much success the rest of the game. I know I am speaking in generalities, but....

As of now, at least to me, it seems like Watson is a circle trying to be forced into square hole. We have no offensive identity. Hopefully that will change because we have invested the Franchise's future into this trade.

Then you are foolish. EVERY business uses analytics. Every sport uses analytics. Being from an Ivy League school is irrelevant. Your broad brushing is pointless. The problem is not analytics. That buzzword is grabbed by everyone who roots for a team that has problems as being the cause of the problems. My issues with the Watson deal are that too much was given up, the ownership and FO either didn’t have a clue what his punishment would be or worse, didn’t care and, finally, that his numbers with the exception of his last season were actually not phenomenal. They were very good but so were Baker’s 1st and 3rd years. I am not saying that Baker is as good as Deshaun. I am saying that there was an element of hype to Watson really keyed into his last year. I am also saying that the Browns have issues with coaching and talent evaluation. Analytics isn’t the problem because analytics is only one tool that organizations use.

That is a tie. I'd put Paul Brown trading Doug Atkins in the same boat.

It was a great trade! A quarterback who might turn out okay for three first-round picks we would’ve most definitely blown.

Atm I'd rather have Baker and the picks. We will know if it's a good trade next year.

Absolutely a great post eotab, I think I agree with everything said ... especially "3 years of First round picks...a death sentence to any team"

It was the WORST TRADE IN NFL HISTORY the day it was made.

Last place
Leshaun money grab.
The worst point he has played so bad he you could not trade him for a bucket
Of bolts.

Hey Vers, are all these guys "Baker Boys" too? Normally, anyone who disagrees with your constant hatred posts is a "Baker Boy."

If we traded Watson today... what would teams give for him?

I'd bet a 3rd round pick and he'd have to restructure his contract or we may have to eat 50% of the cap hit.

I really hope he gets back to DW of old asap.

LMAO..........you have to be kidding?

4 games (25% of a NFL season) 700 yards/(175 per game) 2 TDS 3 INTS 58% completion % 69% RTG. 37.4 QBR.

NFL = Not For Long

I think you are a nice guy, but the NFL isn't DawgTalkers. Teams would still give up multiple firsts for Watson. Please don't delude yourself w/the nonsense that passes for football talk on this board.

28 th draft pick to the 9th.

What would you trade for Wilson?

Wilson? I thought you were talking about Watson.

Their performances this season have been pretty similar. I can see how easy it would be to confuse the two.

Actually that's not accurate - I know Watson is coming back from a 2 year absence and this last game was in bad weather - but Wilson has a QB Rating of 81.6 while DW is a little further back at 69.3.... I don't believe any of us on the board no matter our feelings about Stefanski or any of the players believes Watson will be basement dwelling in the ratings next year, but to your point above, I just wanted to point out that Wilson and Watson are not playing at a similar level this year so far.

That's not as far apart as you may think it is. I don't disagree with you about the future. I was speaking in the present tense.

What's more worrying is that his video tapes from these 4 games are probably worse than his stats. Just watch..

I'm by no means a QB expert but I noticed following;
(I also listened to those with better knowledge then me...)

Just so there is no misundetsanding. I judge him as a potential elite QB who's maybe rusty, not like a 3nd round draft pick or a second rated leftover FA.

1) Maybe contrary to my earlier belief his thinking process has so far been slow. Sometimes our receivers is wide open and he simply don't react fast enough to make a throw.

2) His primary target so far is Amari Cooper but when he's covered Watson often fail to readjust and find another target on time. He simply isn't aware of what happens outside his eye focus. Either slow thought process or maybe he hasn't have the ability to think outside his initial plan?

3) This is the most worrying part. His accuracy in these first four games is average at best but what's worse is that his arm velocity looks mediocre compared to other elite QBs like Allen, Burrow and Mahones.

Rusty? Lost his mojo? Bad luck?

Maybe Berry and our scouts has overestimate his ability by looking to much on his stats without taking everything into context and then they was drawing the wrong conclusions out of pure desperation?
So far it doesn't look good.

I wonder what his SPARQ score was coming into the draft?

Here it is.....

Quarterback

1. Trevor Knight, Texas A&M (96.2)

2. Joshua Dobbs, Tennessee (87.9)

3. Deshaun Watson, Clemson (81.4)

4. Davis Webb, California (79.4)

5. Mitch Leidner, Minnesota (75.3)

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2017/03/2017_nfl_draft_sparq_ratings_w.html

Watch the tapes. That's all i'm saying....

Actually I was trying to give you some data regarding your supposition that the FO gives too much credit to stats. I'm not trying to indicate whether you are right or wrong. I do know however that they have relied on SPARQ scores heavily in the past. That's how we ended up with Anthony Schwartz. There was nothing about his tape that indicated he was worthy of anything close to a third round pick except for his straight line speed and his SPARQ score. SPARQ scores are stats personified.

Okay...

Sorry. My bad.

I’m just worried when I look at the tapes because it doesn’t look good. I will give DSW time improve himself until week3 next season but after that I think what we see is what we get.

Burrow's arm strength should not be even remotely mentioned with Allen and Mahomes...more like Andy Dalton or even Colt McCoy. It's either a dink a dunk or a chuck with Burrow...he's blessed to have those weapons to throw to. While Watson is struggling thus far, his arm strength is still significantly better than Dwayne Haskins Burrow.

I agree that’s a canon ball but I say to you the same thing. Watch his tapes. It doesn’t look good and I saw plenty of bad throws when he was unbalanced and only could rely on his upper body strength.

Look at Allen and Burrow and compare. Huge difference in accuracy and arm speed when they’re under pressure.

It seems vers didn't wish to bother to take a couple of minutes to show that watson is a finisher. I will help him out with that.

He has had 8 4th quarter comebacks and 10 game winning drives. I would consider that a finisher.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/comeback.cgi?player=WatsDe00

If there is any cause for concern in any of that it would be that all of those came in 2018 and 2019 including the 2019 playoffs. He had none of those in his 2020 season. He did however throw for 33 td's and only 7 int's in 2020 with a completion percentage of 70.2%.

I think looking at things under a microscope can blur the QB watson has been in the past. He has been very good.

I'm not trying to argue w/you. I was just replying to what you asked us to do. I do think it's hard to argue that the guy doesn't have a strong arm after watching that particular throw. It's not like you have a strong arm for just one throw and then it goes away.

We all hope he’s an elite QB that can elevate our receivers and TE. It’s from that perspective I judge him.

Look at his last drive against NOS. That’s not what you expect from a $230 player. Cleveland is freaking cold in December and January and DSW doesn’t look like a cold weather guy. I really hope I’m wrong but to succeed in the play offs he needs to be at his best when the climate is close to Alaska level.

Also because I know you are knowledgeable just look at the tapes how he prefer Cooper in his first reading and seems to block out his second and third options. Maybe a coincidence but so far it’s worrying.

If you prove me wrong I’m more than happy because in the end we’ll want the same thing. Success. Maybe I’m just more skeptical than you.

I hate to make this comparison but it's entirely appropriate in repsonse to your post.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player_id=MayfBa00

This guy with 7 4th Q comebacks and 8 game winning drives. And whether folks like him or not I don't think many or any call him a finisher.

It's exactly what I would expect from a $230 player.

Sorry couldn't resist, found it amusing in what has been a busy day for me.

I was asking about both

You said teams would give up multiple picks for Watson

so...

What would you trade for Watson?

Key word is past. Look at Russell Wilson. If I’m not mistaken he had DeAndre Hopkins until 2020 as his primary target. Maybe that helped?

Arm strength is a very over rated metric regarding QBs.
Kinda of a funny thing. Burrow is 2nd in the NFL in passing yards
And TDs. You dont dink and dunk to 4000 yds .Dink and Dunk ? Can you define dink and dunk?
Cause dink and dunk has Been the Browns passing offense
All year. If arm strength was everything then why was EJ Manuel
Akili Smith Jamous Winston David Carr Brandon Weeden
Ryan Leaf Todd Marinovich all busts?
Accuracy and anticipation and reading coverages supersede
Arm strength.

So you are comparing game winning drives of a QB who has had 12 years playing in the NFL to a QB that has played a full 3 seasons in the NFL? Yeah.... no.

I think you're trying way too hard to discount what watson has done as an NFL QB. You are right that it was in the past and nobody knows for sure that's what he will be 100% in the future. But after 700 days not playing in a game I think you're expecting too much too soon. And basing an evaluation of him under that microscope is premature.

I agree. That’s why week 3 next season will be my final judgement day. After that it’s hard to give him more excuses.

On a side note. Change play caller/HC and I think his chances to succeed will increase. Maybe another unpopular opinion….

All you have to do is watch a Bengal game to see what I am talking about. His YAC with those weapons is ridiculous. He gets in trouble when he needs to put some stank on a throw...especially to the sideline. His long ball is usually a 50/50 throw to Chase or Higgins that they win with ease or is to a wide open WR...wide open because of the embarrassment of weapons they have at his disposal. Dink over the middle...dunk to the LOS to a WR...chuck it up and let his stud WRs go get it. No significant arm strength.

Allen has a cannon....but he didn't get accurate - and still isn't. What he did get is a Diggs who catches the trash that gets thrown so often...same with Gabe Davis.

Look at the WR room of the teams in the playoff hunt...we've not been in that company STR.

I don't know that it's an unpopular opinion per say. I can understand why people may see it that way.

I've seen the Bengals play with Burrow. From what I've seen Burrows game is much
Like Bradys. Timing and anticipation throws. Burrow has enough
Arm strength. It's not a rocket arm like Mahomes
Or Allen but Burrow is every bit as good as them.
If I rewind Burrow has outplayed Mahomes in 3 match-ups.

Smh sorry Vers...

What would you trade for Wilson?

Not much. But, Wilson didn't miss nearly two years of football. Wilson has played like crap all year. His replacement in Seattle is playing better than Russ did last year. Wilson also has had many former teammates call him out. Wilson has his own office instead of having a locker like the rest of the guys. Wilson has called out his OL and coaching staff.

Look, like I said earlier..........I like you and it's okay if you disagree w/my take. You won't resort to lies and insults. It's just a difference of opinion. If you really believe that we could only get a 3rd rounder for Watson.....so be it. However, I don't believe that is true at all. Different opinions. No big deal.

I know you didn't ask me. But didn't want anything to do with Wilson b/c I knew the price would be too high for a QB in his 30s and needing a new contract. My opinion before the season, Wilson is on the down slope of his career mainly because he's in his 30s, not bigger body QB that can taken the hits. He's had injuries that has kept him out of games the past few years due to taking lots of hits from running and having a bad line. Seattle rode him like teams have ran RBs into the ground.

I would maybe trade a first rounder for him, but that would be b/c i was desperate for a QB and trying to make a name for myself as a GM. My discussions with Seattle would've been me offering a 2nd rounder or less b/c I knew Russ and his agent would want to hold the team hostage for a big contract. I wouldn't do it for that reason, b/c I have/had a feeling I would only get 1 to 2 possible great years from him, then by year 3 he's a shell of his former self b/c of his past. That would be the issue b/c his agent i would assume, would want a 4-6 year contract paying him franchise starter money. I would know that would screw the team over in the future with that crazy contract. It's just not worth it. He was already showing signs of regressing while at Seattle.

I'm going to make a statement that is totally an opinion, but I feel is true. If we get 75% of the QB Deshaun Watson was when he last played for Houston it will be better than any QB play we've had since Bernie was in his prime and what's that; 35 years ago.

Brutal. Let's hope it gets better!

He has played in three games after sitting out nearly two years and one of those games was in perhaps the worst weather conditions in Browns history and this guy is ranking him w/qbs who have played all year. Talk about cherry picking.

I agree with Vers - using a 3 game sample size after a two year absence has little value. It is all about next year.

Bad weather didn't stop some posters criticizing former players - and it is interesting that cold weather (even extreme cold) statistically has relatively modest impact on passing stats (google it - there are lots of articles) wind however has a huge impact.

www.boardroom.tv/how-does-cold-weather-affect-nfl-games/

No doubt that it's the wind rather than the cold that makes playing football really hard.

First of all, Watson has played 4 games not 3. Second of all, the Saints played in the exact same weather conditions but were able to overcome it for the win. Third and most importantly; if you're going to spend years claiming excuses for injury, poor o-lines, or 7 different coaches in 5-years is inexcusable then a self-imposed hiatus (suspension and quitting on a team) that was rewarded with a 230M guaranteed contract shouldn't be an allowable excuse for weeks of poor performance either and for sure not the weather. IMHO, Watson being rusty was expected at a certain level. Being 41st in passer rating after 4-games is a poorer start than most have expected with his predetermined skill set. I'm sure that Watson will improve as time goes on and he becomes accustomed to the speed of the game but that doesn't relieve him of his lack of improvement over the first 4-games. I think that it's safe to say that most didn't think Watson would get off to this poor of a start. Of course, he will be compared to the play of the other QB's as he should be - after all, he's supposed to have elite status. The hope of every Browns fan is Watson takes a step forward this week against the Commanders. The Browns are paying for an elite QB, the fans just want to see some of that elite play on the field. It's week five playing with the best OL in football, the top RB duo, and a best route running #1 WR - it's time to see some steps toward what the Browns are paying Watson for. That's not "cherry picking" either.

"Deshaun has no right to be playing football at all (indefensible no matter what); but since he is, I'll pick a few stats that show he's the worst QB in the NFL."

Umm, yeah, that's cherry-picking.

Is that what y'all dawgs saw? The worst QB in the NFL??

I've seen a QB who expectedly struggled after not playing in a game for 700 days. In each game I saw steady progress until last week where the wind was blowing so hard one couldn't possibly expect any QB to throw the football accurately.

I'm in between on Watson at the moment. I actually respect Vers football observations enough to accept the premise that DW should be Elite for the Browns. Many others concur with Vers as well, and since I knew almost nothing of Watson's play, I have set and tempered my expectations according to the hype around Watson on this board. Four games in, my biggest problem with DW is that I have not seen a single flash of eliteness. Seriously, if his poor performances are due to rust, I should at least have been able to see a flash or two of his elite 'super powers,' but NOPE, nada, zip, zilch... And now there is so much going on in Berea, with vibes of implosion, a possible loss of the locker room, and crackhead moves like bringing in a reviled Youtuber and penis boxer to be our hype man that I can't help that those 'same ole loser browns' feelings that I'm experiencing now are creeping into my mind.

I have never seen elite DW from his Houston era, so I can only go by what others say about him. But I trust many of those others when it comes to football talk, so I'm doing my best NOT to BE A HATER. Still, with so little to go on and current news starting to feel like we're headed to yet another reset to some degree, I think I'm going to need DW to act like this is Missouri and Show Me because right now, I'm not a believer.

Bottom line...did the Browns make the playoffs?

Watson took over a team that had a chance to make the playoffs..now, there is no chance of Cleveland making the playoffs.

Never forget, in the NFL, football is about qualifying for the playoffs so your team, the Browns, have a shot at winning a Super Bowl.

The Browns 2022 season was and is a "failure".

So to piggyback off this a bit...

The hole you talk about he needs to crawl out of won't get any easier with Sterfanski. He's 8 ft under starting the season. The only thing that can save Deshaun and possibly Sterfanski next year is to land a top 5 WR. That's the only crawling out of this hole. Most nfl games come down to 4 or 5 plays. You need one or two of those plays to be the receiver making it easy on the QB. Deshaun can add a play or two with his feet, a dimension the Browns have never had.

If they roll into next year with Cooper, DPJ, and some mid round rookie, that's not going to end well. The book is out on Stefanski. Teams stopped playing the pass about 5 games ago.

I believe Watson will remain about 9th through I2th in the AFC in passing abilities in perpetuity, including next year, therefore finishing about 7 and 10 next year would be right at par, or a little above actually.

If that's the case we'd be in a world of hurt. Personally I expect DW to play at close to a similar level to his Hou days.

I think “experts” who draw conclusions about how good a qb Watson is based upon this short season that followed two years of inactivity have about as much credibility as the “experts” who tell us how terrible a qb is based upon an injury plagued season. Which is to say very little!

IKR! It's all BS. QBs don't coach and only play one position at a time. Forty-seven other players and the coaches also have a bearing on the game. It just all makes me angry that we can't seem to get the right combination of players and coaches to win consistently, and some other teams never skip a beat and are very good every year.

it must be more than 6 times today, that I either read on here, or heard on a podcast about

the ole seven hundred days off excuse.

Which shouldn't be a necessary excuse for a really really good @uarterback.

At the end of the day... we need Watson to shine majorly and deliver us a Superbowl in the next 2 years.
I want nothing more than for this to happen.

Everything else will be a failure and a total disaster.

That is a subjective opinion. We are all entitled to choose what is a success or a failure or a disaster. Of course, there is a group of posters on here who are hoping and praying for a disaster so they can say "I told you so."

There's a part of me - because of the way this season was flushed down the toilet like a turd, and because of The Predator we have at QB now - that feels like the bar is elevated for the assessment of this trade to be called a success. But the reality is - if we win the AFC north, if we get deep into the playoffs and appear in a couple Championship games over the next 3-4 years, even if we don't win a SB. The trade would be a success. We were within a missed targeting call of going to the Championship game in 2020. I think we need to get there with DW to call this a good trade - and I think we need to be a consistent play off contender.

I don't believe Browns fans are praying for disaster. I think some fans are convinced Stefanski is a bad HC. I think some fans are still struggling with a man called a sexual predator by the former judge who heard all the evidence (exhibiting sexual predatory behavior) being the face of the Browns. In both cases they can be vocal - but I don't see any of them wanting the Browns to fail.

Sure there is. You just love to make up BS in your own mind.

A few things...

1. We weren't a targeting call away from anything. That play happened in the first half. This is another one of those misconceptions that gain a life of their own similar to OBJ was running the wrong routes.

2. Fans truly don't care about what Watson did. They only care that he isn't playing very well now. If he ever plays well, the whole morality club will come up with all kinds of reasons to root for him.

3. The Browns do need to be playing for the division and be in the playoffs annually, but that has nothing to do with Watson. It just needs to happen to turn this franchise around and change the culture around here. But that won't happen with Stefanski. It starts by getting rid of Depo and hiring smart competent people who are good at their jobs. The Browns don't have that. With Stefanski as HC, the Browns will finish fourth in the division next year. I'll take financial bets on this or I'll leave the board forever if someone would like to wager on this.

The morality crowd can separate his play from his depravity. At least I can. If you've been reading any of my posts about his play you can see that. So have some others you try to lump into one group and label as all thinking the same.

This. I don't see what's so hard to understand. I've stated I know and accept people who simple don't care what Watson did. I feel differently, but I can separate what he did and his play on the field.

I usually ignore most of your posts.

This is rationalizing that you really don't care what he did as long as the Browns win.

And I usually laugh at most of yours. So here we are. Just like that last one you just made. Hilarious stuff.

No it's not. But you do you. You are always right - except when your not I guess.

Again Vers! (I can't believe I'm falling for such weak BS again but I blame the snow and the bad weather... )

Listen wise man. I'm born and I partly live in Scandinavia, 100 American miles away from the Polar Circle and at least 12+ hours flight away from Cleveland.

Since I late 2017 started to follow the Browns I have spent at least an hour or two reading forums, browses thru You Tube listening to Quincy, Uncle Shay, and Skip, Colin, Stephen A or whatever their name is.

I slaveishy follow RedZone with Scott Hansen, beside me I has my iPad where I watching the Browns if that game is available and when we (the Cleveland Browns) lose/win I'm angry/happy like a little child on Christmas. When we won that first play off win against the Steelers I was singing and dancing Corvette Corvette in to the bed until my wife kicked me in the back and told me to shut the **** up, it was four a clock at night Scandinavian time.

I'm probably as invested (time wise) as you and one of my biggest dreams is to see the Browns on First Energy Stadium. I sleep in my Nick Chubb replica bought on a scam site in Thailand. Last winter I had to throw away my Baker Mayfield original shirt because of obvious reasons but **** happens. I agree that hurt a little bit because I liked that boy but it didnt prevent me from continue to support my team.

I want the Browns to win as much as anyone but I'm not going to sugarcoat bad results, weak performances and underachieving players/coaches/GM. You know my stance regarding DSW. It's personal and steams out of bad family experiences.

Being critical of Ski, Berry and underperforming players is because I care, probably too much. Soon 60 years old and in this time of my life I don't have time for BS and excuses. If it walk and sound like a duck.....

If I think the Browns has a better chance to win with a new HC, GM, player or whatever I will express my [censored] opinion on this whenever I like.
Most of the time I'm probably wrong but I don't care and BTW the same is probably true for you too. That's part of life being old, critical and too ******cynical my brother.

So FFS stop now pretending you're a unique Top Orange&Brown and the rest of us critical sodders are fake wannabes ... ( hugs my friend )

I didn't say a freaking word to you.

I know but I couldn't resist. You're ATM my favorite target except Brazilian president Lula da Silva, my local politicians and everything that's woke.

No, you just said "a group of posters" to give you plausible deniability claiming you weren't pointing out anyone specific.

Watsons stats with the Browns 2022

Starts minute 40.

No idea if he's good at breaking this stuff down - but I watched form the 40 minute mark. Concerning if there is any accuracy to this amateur's breakdown.

The amateur film break down guy is clearly a hack .... his latest video "Baker Mayfield played a PERFECT Game vs the Broncos' ELITE Defense! Week 16 Film Room" He must be trash.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Pf3QlHVNL0&t=29s

Well he's no Sean McVay, but then some people think Sean McVay is wrong too.

Watson will need to play the very best ball of his career
In order for the Browns to even think of a Wild Card berth
In 2023. His 2020 season is kinda misleading.
Yeah he threw for alot of yards and had a really good TD to INT
But the Texans had no running game whatsoever.
Of course his yardage was alot.
Some of his yardage was garbage time yards
And the 4 wins the Texans achieved were vs cremepuffs.
Yet the Browns gave up 3 1st RD picks for a QB who had
Mediocre record in Texas.
Now fast foward now. His QB rating is worse than Wilson's
And Mayfield. And the truth is..Mayfield has outplayed Watson
In his tenure with the Rams
It's a bad trade considering what was given up.

j/c...

It will be interesting to see how Houston comes out of this. They had a hopeless situation in a QB that refused to play for them. Now they have the 1st overall and our (currently) 11th pick. I would expect them to draft Young or Stroud.


Worst trade ever? Watson would have to self-destruct to top the Broncos trade for Wilson, imo.

Seattle with the 3rd overall pick, compliments of the Broncos terrible season. Broncos now saddled with a terrible QB, leader, and contract. Wow.

I don't know if it is the worst trade ever, but many sports reporters felt that it was the worst contract ever. I can't disagree with that.
The loss of draft picks is a little bit of a moot point because the Browns wouldn't be able to afford them anyhow.

Talking about trades, do you know what I would do if I had a say? Every year about 2 months before the draft I would shop our #1 pick for either more draft picks in the 2nd rounds or possibly a lower #1 pick close to round 2. Everyone is complaining that we gave up 3 #1's for DW. AS I stated before on this board with examples, we don't draft anybody very good in the 1st anyway with just a couple of exceptions. We do better in the 2nd and 3rd rounds and honestly our #1 picks usually play like 2nd and 3rd rounders anyway, usually 3rd. Unless we needed a QB and we had the 1st - 3rd pick in the entire draft I'd do this every year. However, now that I'm thinking about it, we have had the # 1 pick in the draft a few times took a QB and we still screwed it up. OH my!!!

The only games we get here are Cowboys or Texans. I watched Watson play when he did play mainly because my son and daughter-in-law are Texsan's fans and were season ticket holders until he got transferred to Louisville. I was never impressed with Watson. I doubt I will be now. We gave up way too much for what I see as a slightly above average Qb. If he doesn't take this team to the SB in the next 2 seasons, we made a bad trade. You only give up that much for a Super Bowl, anything less is unacceptable.

j/c:

Watson hasn't played great thus far. The last game was in horrible conditions and that should at least be factored in just a little bit. The weather was the major story just a couple of years ago. Anyway, I think Watson was far, far greater than just an average qb who did not impress people. There are reasons why so many teams wanted him on their team. There are reasons that teams agreed to give in to the trade demands of the Texans. There are reasons teams overlooked the allegations against him. He put together one of the greatest years of any qb in recent memory on a team that had the worst talent in the league. I think some folks forget the Texans had traded away D-Hop. I am not going to get into an argument w/the Baker lovers, but I'll post this article for those of you w/an open mind and let you evaluate just how good Watson was.


Galina: Why Deshaun Watson was the NFL's best quarterback in 2020

By Seth Galina
Feb 15, 2021


As much as we all try to separate the performances of different positions from their teammates in order to isolate production, players with stronger surroundings will always fare better than those without.

We’ve spent the past month praising Aaron Rodgers for his MVP 2020 season and bowing down to Tom Brady for his playoff run to a seventh Lombardi Trophy. And why shouldn’t we? Those two were the highest-graded quarterbacks of the entire 2020 season. They deserve praise. One could even argue that Rodgers’ season was one of the great quarterback campaigns of the PFF era (since 2006).


Of course, both signal-callers played on teams that allowed them to showcase their talents. Brady’s Buccaneers happened to boast a top-five defense to continually keep him ahead of the game in terms of field position and game state. Plus, he had the best receiving corps in the league.

Rodgers was given opportunities to find open receivers via Matt LaFleur’s wide-zone and play-action scheme, and he had arguably the best receiver in the league in Davante Adams. It’s hard to go back and look through the list of the great quarterback seasons of the past 15 years and find examples where quarterbacks did not have other elite factors going in their favor.

That’s why I’m ready to make the argument that Deshaun Watson was not only the best quarterback of 2020, but also that he had the best season of the past 15 years — and maybe ever.



Absolutely nothing went the Texans' way last year, and Watson still routinely played at an elite level. Former Houston head coach and general manager Bill O’Brien traded his team's best receiver, yet Watson played better than ever before. O’Brien was fired midseason, but it didn’t phase the quarterback. He played with a terrible defense, a terrible running game and no star receivers and put up the 19th-best regular-season passing grade of the PFF era (91.2). He’s one of 29 quarterbacks to finish a regular season with a 90.0-plus passing grade.

Those 29 quarterback seasons are generally regarded as the greatest individual campaigns of the past 15 years. Tom Brady’s 2007, Peyton Manning’s 2013 and Patrick Mahomes’ 2018 are all included in this group alongside Watson’s 2020.

Better surrounding factors allow a quarterback to stay away from negative plays. Being down in games forces the quarterback to attempt more difficult passes. Not having a running game puts the quarterback in more ominous down and distances. Not having receivers who can separate forces the quarterback to hold on to the ball.

And yet, Watson torched the league despite having nothing going in his favor.

We can start with the overall records for each of those 29 quarterbacks. If a signal-caller is having an elite year, chances are his team is doing well. Twenty-six of the 29 quarterbacks’ teams won at least 10 games that season. The quarterback is the most important factor, but you can assume that other factors were involved to get to that plateau of wins.

Twenty-eight of the 29 quarterbacks’ teams finished the season at .500 or above. The only team to finish below that threshold is the 2020 Houston Texans and their four wins. Better quarterback play has resulted in wins more often than not. Watson, even while being a part of this elite club, did not have any team support.

For starters, he didn’t have much of a defense. The Texans finished 31st in defensive expected points added per play in 2020. Only the 2006 Indianapolis Colts defense was worse from a league ranking perspective, as they finished 32nd the year that Manning carried them to a Super Bowl win.

Worst defense EPA ranks among 29 QBs with 90+ season grade in PFF era
QB Defense EPA Rank
25. Tom Brady, 2011 28th
26. Patrick Mahomes, 2018 28th
27. Andrew Luck, 2016 29th
28. Deshaun Watson, 2020 31st
29. Peyton Manning, 2006 32nd

Watson is also part of a group of 10 players who notched 90.0-plus passing grades despite their defenses finishing below 20th in the league in EPA. Philip Rivers’ 2010 season in San Diego topped the list, as the Chargers' defense finished second in the league that season.

The Texans also couldn’t run the ball. They finished 31st in 2020 in EPA per rushing play. The next worst unit was the 2019 Seattle Seahawks, who finished 28th in the league while Russell Wilson still produced a 90.0-plus grade. In fact, in 17 of the 29 seasons, the rushing EPA per play of the elite quarterback's team was in the top half of the league. At the top is Manning's 2007 Colts rushing attack, which finished first that year.

When it comes to surrounding talent in the passing game, Watson doesn’t fare as poorly but does find himself in the bottom-third in a couple of categories. The Texans' team pass-blocking grade ranked 19th among the 29 seasons. Aaron Rodgers’ 2014 season was at the top with a 92.1 team pass-blocking grade. And unsurprisingly, Rivers’ 2018 season was at the bottom with a 59.7 cumulative grade.

The 2020 Texans team receiving grade was 20th in this group. Andrew Luck’s 2016 season saw the Colts finish with a 75.5 receiving grade, the lowest in the sample, while the 2016 Falcons and Matt Ryan’s great season finished at the top.

From a macro scheme perspective, we can look at play-action rate and screen rate to see how protected these quarterbacks were. Play-action passes, whether they be RPOs or otherwise, tend to define the reads for a quarterback and create distractions for defenders that a regular dropback does not.

PFF has play-action data going back to the 2012 season, and Watson again comes in pretty low. For this, I used league rank in terms of percentage of throws that were off play action because of how play-action rates have risen throughout the NFL over time. The 2020 Texans sat at 28th in the league this season in play-action rate. Only Brady’s 2020 season and Ben Roethlisberger’s 2015 season were lower relative to the league at the time. The 2016 Falcons finished first in the NFL in play-action rate that year.

PFF's screen data goes back to 2011, and it provides similar results. Watson’s Texans placed 21st in the league in screen rate — 17th-lowest of the 23 players in this selection. Rodgers' 2020 season had him throw the second-highest rate of screens in the league, while Rivers’ 2018 was last at a league rank of 29th that year.

Watson’s 2020 season is at or near the bottom in almost all team categories. River’s 2018 campaign is rough from a scheme and offensive line perspective, but he played with a top-10 running game and defense. Luck’s 2016 season and Wilson’s 2019 campaign are almost as rough as Watson’s 2020.

A big part of PFF grades is the opportunity to have negative plays. If you are 2007 Tom Brady throwing to Randy Moss, your opportunity for negative plays is small. If you are 2016 Matt Ryan, who is not being asked to perform straight dropbacks often, your opportunity for negative plays is smaller. Rodgers playing behind David Bakhtiari, Josh Sitton, T.J. Lang, Bryan Bulaga and Corey Linsley in 2014 limited the pressure he faced, and therefore, there was less of a chance to have a negative play.

It’s not to say those seasons aren't great — they are, undoubtedly — but Watson’s season, without any semblance of team help and still grading at that incredible level, might be the most impressive.

I’m less concerned with the supposed scheme issues than the talent surrounding Watson. The complaints about lack of play-action chances are definitely founded in reality. With Bill O’Brien coming from coaching Tom Brady, that’s the scheme he brought with him to Houston. No one complains when Brady’s coaches don’t call play action enough for him, because he can drop back and complete passes without it at an elite level.

That’s what happened with Watson this year. He didn’t need play action. Watson was the third-highest graded passer without play action, screens and RPOs this season, behind only Rodgers and barely behind Mahomes. Could the Texans have gone away from the “all-stick route” offense? Maybe, but Watson was playing at such an elite level that he was getting completions on any concept drawn up for him. These macro scheme complaints don’t really hold up when talking about the elite players in the game. Does Jared Goff need play action? Yes. Did Watson require it? No.

Did this stop me from making the same complaint? Also no.



Watson has always had this level of play in him, but like so many other quarterbacks, performing at such a level for an entire season proved difficult over his first three years in the league. Specifically, Watson's floor games of past seasons completely vanished in 2020. Over the first three years of his career, Watson had 12 games where his passing grade dipped under 60.0. He had no such games in 2020. And getting his turnover-worthy play percentage down to 2% from 3.6% in 2019 was part of that.

In the Texans' Week 3 matchup against the Steelers, Watson engineered a superb two-minute drill that showed everything he’s about right now. The Steelers would end the season ranked second in defensive EPA per play, and Watson tore them up. Getting the ball back with 1:14 left in the first half at their own 25, the Texans took five plays to get into the endzone, with Watson going a perfect 5-for-5.



We start with a quick hitch route to Brandin Cooks. Watson really could throw to either tight end Darren Fells or Cooks. On this concept, with the cornerback off, you are reading the first low defender. He immediately buzzes outside, which opens the throw to Fells, but Watson never believes he can get out fast enough to get under Cooks' route, either. He throws as soon as he finishes the end of his drop and puts the ball on Cooks' outside shoulder, where it should go.

On throws that we chart and bucket as “stick” throws, Watson’s adjusted completion percentage jumped from 76% over the previous two seasons to 92% this past year. His grade on those attempts was good enough for second-best in the league. He took what was given to him and kept the chains moving.



The Texans try to start picking up chunk yardage, so they call their sail concept hoping to find Randall Cobb in some space. The Steelers end up in Cover 3, but with the flat defender getting wide immediately off the snap, Cobb settles into the void instead of staying on the run to the sideline. The read for Watson is to quickly check if the outside receiver can win on his deep route and then to read that same flat defender for a high/low with Cobb and the running back.

Again, with the flat guy so wide, it creates space for Cobb to sit into. Watson reads it the same way and delivers into the void. He hammered Cover 3 this season to the tune of a 93.0 grade, which ranked second-best in the league during the regular season.



The Steelers are starting to get nervous and show like they are going to pressure Watson and play man coverage behind it. They end up rushing only four while playing man with a low-hole defender. Watson is looking to his right early in the drop and sees the player covering Fells run and open a window for Cooks on the in-breaking route.

The problem is that the Texans' offensive line has trouble picking up a stunt along the line of scrimmage, forcing Watson to come off his spot. When he’s ready to throw again, it looks like that low-hole defender spooks from throwing to Cooks, so he takes off into an opening and gets outside the pocket before finding Fells on the sideline for another first down.

Plays like this are where Watson really took his game to another level. We’ve always known he can move around outside the pocket, but he was throwing dimes when on the run in 2020. His grade improved from 67.6 on “scramble drill” plays in 2018 and 2019 to 94.5 this season, which led the league.



Again, the Steelers decide to blitz and play man coverage. Watson opens his dropback by looking to his right, but the man coverage on his wide receiver and the outside leverage on Fells by Cameron Sutton eliminates those two routes.

Watson moves his eyes to the left and finds Cobb again, this time on an in-breaking route, for another first down. Watson has always been good at these throws we chart as “horizontal leads.” He produced the third-highest grade in the league on these types of throws beyond 10 yards. He also led the league in the regular season on throws that we chart as “next read” — where his eyes had to work back across the field.



The touchdown throw is a beautiful drop in the bucket to Will Fuller V. The Steelers are showing man to man with one-high safety before the snap, and as long as that safety doesn’t fly over to the sideline, Watson is going to take his shot to Fuller. In rhythm. Beautiful throw. Six points.

This was Watson the whole season, even if the wins and traditional box score stats didn’t come with it. He took his game to the next level, and it’s why whenever you see potential trade packages for him, the return is astronomical.

If this is who Deshaun Watson is going forward — not a one-hit wonder — there are maybe four teams in the NFL that don’t need to take a look at him. Watson was the best quarterback in the league in 2020, and he arguably had the best season from a signal-caller in the past 15 years.


https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-deshaun-watson-best-quarterback-2020-houston-texans

Thanks Vers for posting this article but can I ask a few questions about Watson.

I have now watched all his throws with the Browns but I'm still not convinced. I know he's rusty, 700+ days without a competitive game and so on but can you give me your thoughts about the following;

a) his thought process seems to have slow down a little bit compared to his highlights with the Texans. Its not a huge difference but it's apparent time to time that his mechanics isnt the same and sometimes he also has some thought lapses where he completely lose his rythmn. Is it only him being rusty or is it possible that being without competitive games for so long has made him lose a little bit of his sharpness?

The reason I ask is because one of my boyhood heroes, tennis player Bjorn Borg, recently admitted that when he took his famous brake from top tennis at age 25 (ranked number one in the world at that time) he could never after that recover his best sharpness, speed and rhythm. One or two hundreds of a second in almsot every phase if his game made the difference. Not even 6 month of hard training helped. The sharpness and rythmn wasnt the same any longer.

b) so far I can't see that hunger and willingness that I saw when he played with the Texans. Maybe I'm fooling myself and search for things that isn't there but in general I don't like when a player looks indiffernt or smiling after a bad play/or after the game. Whats your thoughts?

c) in my opinion one very good receiver isn't enough. Even a elite QB needs at least one elite WR, a very good TE (maybe Njuko) and one very good route runner (Amari Cooper). Without a 1rd draft pick 2023 and 2024 we're in a bad position but what's worse is that we (including Stefanski) has a bad reputation when it comes to taking care of talented receivers. Rightly ot wrongly it's a fact that the Browns has a reputation to be a little bit dysfunctional and that's also something that could work against us.

Whats your thoughts about getting a new elite WR. Whats the best case scenario and off course what's the opposite? How will it affect DSW in case we can't get a elite receiver that can help him?

e) finally do you think that Stefanski and Watson is a good match and in that case why? I also want you to be critical and give me potential reasons why it shouldn't work. If you struggle to find reasons think Baker and it will work (sorry for that)

Thanks in advance and if you prefer not to answer I still wish you a Happy ending of 2022 and a HNY.

I was about to post another article about Watson, the offense, and the coaching. I'll post it after I respond to your post and I think it may help to answer some of your questions. I'll try and address a couple of your other questions first.

--I think we could really use another good WR. I think Cooper is good enough to be our #1. DPJ has progressed, but we need a 3rd guy. Maybe a guy who can stretch the field. I don't buy that Stefanski has a bad rep w/WRs. That's something that steve manufactured and folks on here bought in w/out researching the real truth. I also think that Watson will help draw WR FA talent here if we are willing to pay fair market value.

--I think Watson's fire is fine.

--I do think his mechanics are off. I've noticed that his footwork is getting out of whack. I think that is the biggest culprit on his poor throws and lack of production. I also think it's the area where the rust is most evident. Of course, the speed of the game is huge, too. I think a lot of attention is being paid to his mechanics right now, but it's hard getting quality practices in this time of year. It will be an emphasis next year in the camps.

I will post the article now and I think there are some things in it that touch on a lot of what you said.

News & Notes: Deshaun Watson believes more scoring coming soon for offense

Watson knows the Browns need to find more ways to score in the final two games of the regular season
Dec 29, 2022 at 03:43 PM

Anthony Poisal
Staff Writer



Deshaun Watson kept his answer simple Thursday when he was asked what area of his game he's looking to improve after his first four starts with the Browns.

"Offensively, especially as the quarterback, we want to score more points," he said. "Not just for me, but for the whole offense, we want to score points and put ourselves in position to put a game away and help our defense out and our special teams out. I know it's a team game and we have to complement each other, but we can help ourselves offensively. I take pride in that, and I take full control and responsibility of that."

The Browns have scored three touchdowns since Watson returned from his 11-game suspension and took over starting duties in Week 13 in Houston. After not finding the end zone in the first game, Watson has manufactured one touchdown each game — a 13-yard throw to TE David Njoku against the Bengals, a 3-yard pass to WR Donovan Peoples-Jones against the Ravens and a 12-yard rush from Watson last week against the Saints.

Watson had two good chances to secure his fourth touchdown in the final minute against the Saints, but well-placed passes to the end zone to Peoples-Jones on second down and Njoku on third down were dropped. The record-cold weather during that game certainly didn't help — WR Amari Cooper also dropped a pass in the end zone earlier in the game after his feet slipped on the frozen, snow-covered grass.

Now, with much more normal conditions this week at FedEx Field and temperatures expected to touch 60 degrees, the Browns expect to see a jump in offensive production Sunday against the Commanders.

"These next two games, we will have some decent conditions and we can really see where we're at right now," said offensive coordinator Alex Van Pelt, who also admitted that the conditions created "some factors that played into our evaluation process."

The touchdowns should also be easier to find now that Watson has had four games to operate the offense in a live setting and build chemistry with receivers. He's felt himself grow more comfortable with the playbook with each game, and he believes that comfort will lead to bigger plays — and more points — before the season ends.

"I feel very comfortable with (the offense)," he said. "The progress is continuing to grow each and every week. The stats might not show it or say it, but right now, this is not about any statistics or anything like that. It's about me improving as a quarterback and getting back into rhythm and getting into the rhythm of this offense and this team. As far as my decision making, reads, throws, timing and everything like that, it's been getting better each and every week."


But Watson still has areas that need to improve for the offense to take that jump. Van Pelt said huddle operation, play calling and footwork improvements will all be the top points for Watson in the last two games.

"Those are the biggest steps," Van Pelt said. "Just continue to improve in those areas. The accuracy is there. You're starting to see that come back. His ability to make plays on the move is back. Really, it's just a matter of fine tuning footwork, operation and all of the things that come with quarterback play."

For Watson, the top goal is to do whatever is necessary to find the end zone — and a win.

"Whatever we need to do to figure out each and every week going against a different philosophy, different team and different coordinator, we have to find ways to put more points on the board," he said.


https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/new...ves-more-scoring-coming-soon-for-offense

I forgot to answer if Stefanski and Watson are a good match. Watson touched on it when he said that he felt very comfortable in this offense. I think almost all qbs are a good match in this offense. It is very QB friendly, and that is enormously important. It's very similar to Kyle Shanahan's offense. Watson should thrive in it. What's more important is that I think Watson will make Stefanski's job a lot easier. He's never had a qb who had this many tools in his tool belt. The Browns have wisely invested in their OL and I think this offense will take off next year. We have to remember that despite the constant negativity on here, the offense has actually performed well this year for the most part. And we did it w/a backup qb.

Ah, the "we suck at drafting" as justification for giving up three 1st round picks. I guess that works if you think we should keep people in charge that suck at drafting.

Thanks for your time, I appreciate it it.


I don’t fully agree with you when it comes to Stefanski and I will do my best to in a fair way to explain why.

a) with a potential superstar like Watson (if he develops like we think) we need more than ever a HC who can inspire, install confidence and communicate with total conviction.

So far what I see with my owns eyes from my telly, listening to his pressers, listening to people with better knowledge than me then Stefanski hasn’t so far in his time with us been that guy. Some elder former pro from the Chicago Bulls who’s a Browns supporter said on YT that either you have it or you don’t. He didn’t believe on Ski as an inspiring coach who had it. Being that guy that a group of physical alpha’s listen to, trust and follows until they falls off a cliff takes something extra and Ski hasn’t yet the results, the reputation and the charisma to demand the trust and the sacrifices it takes to walk that extra mile.

b) Accountability. Every successful coach I have seen in my 50 years as a sports nerd has that ability to quite quickly separate the underachievers from the winning at all cost guys and do something about it. Kevin is IMO a nice guy but he’s not a hit man who clears the deck only with his eyes and facial expression. He’s also too soft and square as a communicator. I think these things matter more than anything when the game is tight and you have a elite talent on the field. Making good players great and great players to be elite takes more than nice little words.

Great leaders talks simple when necessary and inspiring when it matter most. Think Lionheart and Martin Luther King and you grasp what I mean. Most warriors love that ****.

c) Delegate and trust. Read that again. In such a complex organization every experienced leader knows the importance of delegate and trust. With only two eyes, one brain and limited time to your disposal smart delegation is a must.

d) Our defense has been a cluster **** more often than not. Our offense has also failed more often than expected. Any smart leader knows when it time to take command and make changes before it’s to late. Kevin hasn’t done that and the criticism has grown day by day and now it’s almost out of control. That’s bad management from both him and Berry. Doesn’t matter why and who’s to blame, sometimes a change is just necessary just for showing off.

These is a couple of my concerns with Stefanski and his leadership. Am I totally wrong you think?

Pit, I didn't make that statement to justify the trading of 3 1st round picks. I made it basically out of disgust about all our bad drafting. The way I look at it. the 1st in "22 was DW. The picks that we would have made in "23 and "24 in the 1st round would most likely, given our draft history since "99, turn out to be marginal players at best no matter who is making the picks. So why not take a shot at what everyone seems to agree is a top 5-10 QB. At least DW is established. WE just have to hope he gets back to his previous form or close to it.

It doesn't matter if I think you are wrong or not. You presented your case w/out all the usual insults and attacks that so many posts contain. You were not offensive and you articulated your points very well. It's okay if we disagree on the particulars. It was a good conversation.

I don’t like the framework around this trade but in fairness it’s almost impossible to properly judge the level of success/fiasco until his time with us are over.

The circumstances around this trade is complex and involve many factors that’s not football related. All the way from how Berry/Stefanski handled Baker, the drama before DSW decided to be a Brown, everything surrounding the allegations, the media coverage, the press conference in late Mars 2022 when Berry introduced him, his strange interviews and finally his suspension.

That’s a hell of a journey as a Browns supporter. Hope. Anger. Sadness. Disappointment. Happyness. Confusions. Debates. Anxiety. Moral dilemma’s. Frustration and hope again.

My heart and head has never been in sync when I debating the rights and wrongs. That’s frustrating on is own merits.

From many perspective it’s an awful trade when factoring salary, 1rd picks, my own soul-searching and moral feelings. On the other hand as a supporter, sports fanatic and a man old enough to be the young man’s father it’s thrilling and full of hopes.

It’s not an easy ride to be a Cleveland Browns supporter, but frankly I wouldn’t want to have it in any other way.

I understand where you are coming from - and the only way to know how the trade plays out is to wait and see what happens and how good Watson plays for the Browns over the next 4-5 years.

And while I also understand the baggage that came with DW - and he's been found guilty of being a sexual predator (exhibiting behavior of a sexual predator is the same as being one in my book) - the one comment you wrote that I don't agree with was how they 'handled' Baker. The NFL is a business - players get moved and cut all the time. Baker's immaturity caused him to react badly - that's on him. And if Berry or KS or anyone else told Baker "Your our guy" right up to the moment DW signed or was courted .... that's just how this business works. Finally - whether the Browns were right to move on from Baker has no bearing on whether the trade for Watson was right or wrong. Judge the Watson trade based on what we gave up for him and how good he plays for the Browns. If Watson balls out and we sart going to the playoffs consistently - it'll probably be a good trade. If he doesn't - or he quits on the team or gets another suspension for any other transgressions - it'll be a bad trade. If Watson is merely "good" and the Browns continue to be out of the playoff picture - some might try to make an argument that it was a good trade I don't know, but I expect more.

Deshaun Watson has not been found guilty of anything in a court of law. He has not even been to trial. I get that this will lead to yet another slew of posts from a certain group of posters, but our country's legal system has not not convicted Watson of any crime. Period.

No-one said he was found guilty in a court of law - where do you even come up with this crap?

Deshaun Watson was found guilty by the NFL and by the independent arbitrator, a former federal judge Sue Robinson. Before Sue Robinson heard the case - you were telling this board how impartial Sue Robinson was and what a fantastic track record she had - you preached that you and everybody else should accept her findings. To this point she is the only person to have heard "all" the evidence.

No, I disagree b\c we can take info from the very first play he plays.
It didn't take Baker 4 years when in his very first action for the Browns he led the team back from a deficit to beat the Jets coming into the game for Tyrod Taylor.

It hit me,,, 3 min ago, ... so far D. Watson is a lot like the Trent Richardson ac@uisition was going to change the Browns fortunes in the running game, just ya know, back then, don't judge him for the then next 4+ years.

No, I disagree, got to stop and examine right there,
marginal at best. ?

Look at the Jets before and after Sauce Gardner ?? Big , WhOA big difference in the entire fortune of the team, and that is one pick.

And, not only.. are you not getting a pick but the other thirty one teams will still get their allotted yearly improvements

.. Like it or not, David Njoku, was a top 28 pick, the top 28, ))old time first rounders) or actually about top 23, top I8 to 23, Njoku was seventeenth in draft pick se@uence iirc.
.. Like it or not and popular or not, the Browns fortunes in team success hinged on David Njoku making plays, whether folks want to admit it or not,
even in 2020. ... and another thing,

CAN WE JUST gloss over that Berry and Haslam and whomever got rid of Rashard Higgins
... .... ARRGH , after years and years when you FINALLY FIND A Rashard Higgins YOU KEEP HIM,
This franhise:
is like a loved one:
that keeps relapsing:
into the same wrong decision.

Will they learn?
... ... arrgh, don't remind me , Njoku? they passed on TJ watt,
.. OH, doh, we had Myles, can't possibly take the best player if you already have one at the position.

You passed on TJ Watt, that is numbskull insult worthy.

Throw I see your point and it's relevant. However, when since we've come back in "99 have we made one pick that's had such a positive effect on our team? Maybe Joe Thomas? We haven't drafted a guy like Sauce Gardner that has influenced our team like he has and how many drafts have we had 2 picks in the 1st round 3? and we still didn't hit on any of them. Ward is good but he only plays half the year and when he does there are times, he plays like a 4th rounder. Look, I respect your opinion as I do others on this board and I'm happy to post back and forth with you on the subject matter but if anyone else feels I'm wrong about this please let me know. There are many examples on OTHER teams drafting one guy and him making a big difference in their fortunes but I haven't seen that here at least since "99. There were years I could have put all the names of the 1st round talent in a hat pulled out a name and had a better pick than the one we chose. It's pathetic!!!

I don't agree, which is fine - my points would be: Baker's success wasn't consistent and pro-longed. It was patchy and intermittent and while his final season he played hurt for 15 games and people can debate the impact you can't debate how bad he looked in CLT. Suggesting you can pass a final grade on Watson after 1/3 of one season, after a 2 year absence, doesn't seem realistic me - let judging him on even less time/games.

And there in lies the 3 1st round picks, 230 million dollar guarantee gamble. I understand that you point out the gamble in making the 3 first round picks. But at the same time you pointed out how that gamble works in both directions.

Exactly, it is a gamble. Like putting up your house because you think you have a great hand. If you lose it will set you back for a long time!!

On one hand you would have three shots at finding a superstar player. On the other hand you only have one.

I think a lot will depend on if Stefanski (analytics dept. ??) can design an offense that fits Watson, or tries to fit him to an offense.

Watson is a proven superstar. Multiple teams were willing to give up the 3 first round picks plus more in order to trade for Watson. The Browns haters don't want anyone else to consider that fact. It's just more of the "we Browned it...."

Personally speaking, I would rather give up that draft capital for a proven elite qb than give up similar draft capital for guys like Wentz, Goff, Trubisky, RGIII, Trey Lance, Justi, etc.

Baker got some publications' rookie of the year, let's not forget. He didn't get rookie of the year but a second publication iirc. gave him rookie of the year, and didn't he break the TD pass total for a rookie his Ist year, just to define
"not consistent and prolonged, patchy and intermittent" and, even if he benefited? Is the current winningest @b in the Browns stadium, he took from Roethlisburger spit. again, just to define "not consistent and patchy and intermittent" for Bakers success.

Moving on.
=============

Back to the draft picks being a part of the trade again.. ... again... sigh

The Career of, Julio freaking Jones aaaghhhhh.

The Browns are doing the same things for 30 years ?
look at the trophe case?
look at the div. they didn't win, the playoffs they didn't make, the trophes?
exact same thing and
will they learn, will the ownership learn? Will they make and sustain a brand and an identity and an ONFIELD identity?

He has proven he was a superstar. He has proven he was a proven elite QB. You act as if multiple teams haven't been wrong before. And multiple didn't and wouldn't go as far as the Browns did or he would be there instead of here.

I'm not saying he won't get back to what he once was. But those claiming they know he will don't know if that will happen either.

IIRc, to correct myself, they didn't pass on TJ Watt when they picked Njoku, it was the selection of Jabril Peppers at about I2th overall
if my memory ... that was where TJ Watt was still available, and all after they took TJ Ward at about 4th overall.

They passed on TJ watt for Jabril Peppers and later got Njoku, now? is that the year Kelce went to the chiefs at TE?
I think it was Kelce, if you saw Kelce's receiving production in college from the TE pos, and had paid attention to TE receiving for any course of a few year period in college prospects then Kelces numbers stood out like a Billboard, like a Billboard on steroids, as in that doesn't come around even every decade.
one of those TE's, I may have the player wrong, it was one of those TE's from back then.

In 2017 we took Jabril at # 25. The Steelers took Watt at #30. What a draft that would have been for us if we took Watt. We had already taken Myles at #1.

I don't think you have any idea what other teams were willing to give up to get Watson and you have no idea what kind of $$$ other teams were willing to throw at him. And IF you did, that would mean absolutely nothing because all that matters now is what he does as a Brown.

Watson is very likely to be better than Baker or Brissett in 2023 and beyond. Even in 2023 and beyond, the question will always linger....are the Browns better off with Watson? Or some other QB plus (3) 1st Rd picks, a 3rd and (2) 4ths and 230MM of guaranteed money?

He doesn't have to just be better...as that bar wasn't very high to begin with...but he has to be MUCH, MUCH better.


Who in the hell are these "Browns haters" and how do you have any clue what they want...about anything?

There aren't any Browns haters. It's just the kind of BS he tosses around in a lame attempt to further his agenda and show his disapproval of anyone with a differing opinion than his own.

There are numerous reports that talked about that there were multiple teams who agreed to the compensation the Texans were asking. I never once mentioned the money angle, but yet again, a Fabulous Baker Boy is trying to deceive others.

And the fabulous Baker hater carries on.

All this talk about if the trade was worth it or not is just dumb, even if Watson never regains his 2020 form. Watson is an elite athlete, with an elite arm, exceptional accuracy, and is a proven leader that guys want to play with and for...basically the caliber of QB the Browns have never had. You make that trade every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

The only thing that will hold Watson back is the coaching staff, and they will unless they get kicked to the curb.

So...you have no proof of what you repeatedly claim to be true...you left out nearly a quarter billion $$$ contract (kind of relevant, ya thnk)...and catching you in your lies = someone ELSE deceiving others.

The best part of all that agenda BS is that no one on this board is disputing - or has disputed - that Watson over Baker is an upgrade at QB.

Agreed. It's the Baker fans who can't admit they are wrong and are trying to find ways to trash Watson and the Browns. Take WSU's post for example. Dude lies and then calls me a liar. LOL........they are unreal.

Even better - we moved up from the 2nd round to first round to draft the Joke at #29 before Watt at #30.

It boggled my mind at the time and still does to this day. Could have had bookend game wreckers at DE for the past 5 years.

Exactly, yet when you question these types of consistent blunders you get accused of having an anti-Browns agenda. Nice post.

A lot of people love Sashi, but his roster decisions were the worst I have ever seen since I started following the Browns.

You make up so much BS I had to invest in a coal shovel.

What BS? It's been confirmed that multiple teams agreed to the Texans' trade demands. That's not BS. It is not a lie. It's a fact.

So another Adult is needed because Vers is spamming the boards again with agenda, BS and nonsense once more. And apparently when posters point this out we get branded as children.

But in an attempt to sift through the current back and forth and deflection - here is the post that Vers is calling others names over - and falsely claiming that WSU is lying.

1. No one knows what other teams offered HOU - that's a straight up fact.
2. Knowing that HOU ACCEPTED other offers (I think there were 4 teams in the mix) - in no way shape or form means that anyone KNOWS WHAT WAS OFFERED. We only know what Cleveland finally did trade. And we know what HOU was reported to have wanted.
3. Last point - we absolutely have no clue what-so-ever what teams offered Watson in terms of contract and $$$. Another straight up fact.

So WSU made a post that was 100% legit.

Vers is spamming the baord multiple times calling him a liar. And apparently because some posters care enough to respond to this BS and pattern of behavior that is endless from one specific poster - we get lumped in with the cancerous poster.

If all it took, or would take is for multiple teams to want him at the time to =NFL greatness then
RGIII would have had a much longer and better career than both
Ryan Tannehill and Kirk Cousins who are both still in the league, and RGIII? I dunno, ,I think he's been gone a couple of years.

BAKER IS NOT ON THIS TEAM ANY LONGER!!!!!

Geesh, you guys much have Doctorates in dead horse beating.

And what does that have to do with watson?

Have you ever seen Andrew Berry's? ... of course you have.

Sheldon Richardson, Malik Jackson and Larry Ogunjobi are all, and were better at DL than Jordan Elliott, but? Andre Berry is ...

What play did Jerome Ford ever make to earn a roster spot on the Browns?

Somebody? has been trying for 4 years to pass off Drew Forbes and Nic Harris as real NFL players, but?
Berry drafted Anthony Schwartz off the track and field court,
Tony Fields II who probably today couldn't have started in those College two matchups yesterday.

That OL from Cincinnati Hudson who just can't take an injured Jed Wills spot last year when Wills was noticeably injured,
the Berry who brought in Jacoby Brisset in 2022, the Brisset whose dropbacks in the red zone lost, I think lost a couple of those games in the first seven weeks of the year
2 and 5 record. Berry is a gem.
Yep, DPJ and Harrison Bryant are the next Kelce and ?? receiver who left the chiefs for the dolphins. blah.

Did your friend in Houston give you that information.

It is factual that multiple teams agreed to the Texans trade demands. This has been reported by the most reputable insiders, including Shefty and Rappaport. Spin away w/your crap, but facts are facts.

Now, we will wait for one of your epic psychotic rants like the recent one where you went off on Memphis for not attacking another board member.

Maybe Paul DePodesta is making our draft picks too

Baker was the Browns #I overall pick After>>>> and may I repeat after fans patiently, pfff. put up with
I and fifteen, then 0 and I6, and bringing back the coach that ended up one, thirty one and one.

Let them beat the dead horse for one, thirty one, and one weeks.

Because
Browns ownership couldn't get a 2nd contract with their guy, their brand. The guy they chose when they had the number one overall pick.

Besides what is the worry? Baker putting up 51 points and Deshaun never putting up 40+.

So WSU made a post that was factually accurate. I made a post that was factually accurate and even states that multiple (four I believe) teams had offers accepted.

And you continue with the nonsense and deflection. Once again you have been proven to be talking out of your read end (that was your expression from the other day when Pit nailed you with more facts right?) .... can't make this stuff up.

Wasn't there a reported "cost of admission" to even get in the discussion? Didn't those four teams meet that threshold?

You say you care enough to respond to Vers and call him out. It reads as insecure, immature, and stalkerish. You follow him around incessantly and then try and convince everyone that you're not part of the problem. It's a message board. Why don't you ignore him.

That's sort of funny coming from you whose posted multiple times recently about loving to troll and get what you think is an emotional reaction to your posts. You do you, I'll do me.

My post references that Hou got the offers they were happy with / accepted. And it states that we don't know what they were... Which is what wsu said and got called a liar for.... a factual statement. If you actually know the specifics of what was offered and accepted feel free to shsre.

I do enjoy trolling guys like you. It's easy and fun and entertaining. Doesn't change anything I said.

You enjoy being a troll? Bit psychotic if you ask me.

Perhaps you should volunteer somewhere, or get a job.

I will consider volunteering but I'm not unretiring.

Confirmed by who/whom? The actual TEAM(s)? They are the only ones who really know and they haven't said squat...not that that matters to your agenda. In your agenda-driven world, articles that you agree with are gospel...articles you disagree with are lies or written by a hack or a Baker fan.

Watson had a no-trade clause...so signing him and the contract he demanded/received are every bit as relevant as the picks that were given up...and you also have no idea what kind of $$$ other teams offered. Not that details and context mean anything to you.
Everyone on this board "got over" Baker months ago...except for you. You prove it on a regular basis.

The articles were posted on here. They were on both NFL Network and ESPN shows. There were 5 teams that agreed to the Texans trade demands. They lie and then turn around and pretend I am the one lying.

And you are right, 888 stalks me daily. It's creepy as hell.

So, which teams? Just a quick search, I found 6 teams that INQUIRED. https://sportsnaut.com/deshaun-watson-trade-interested-nfl-teams/

But I can't find the 5 teams that AGREED to the texans trade demands. Maybe I'm not searching deep enough.

The 4 finalists and Indy. However, Houston said they would not trade w/Indy because they were in the same division.

Cool. Links?

Nope. I gave them to you the last time you asked. That was before the season. I'm enjoying our victory and am not doing yet another search. I've posted this information multiple times.

It's amazing that we have a small group of posters who are actually trying to challenge another poster so it throws shade on the Browns. And what a coincidence, they are all part of the Fabulous Baker Boys.

I've spoken my piece. I'll leave it to others on who to believe.

Btw----it warms my heart that you guys are upset tonight because we won.

I'm not certain I ever asked that before.

I'm throwing NO shade at the Browns.

I'm not a Baker boy, either.

Better buck up and back up your lies.

And as I stated in a different thread, I'm glad the Browns won today.

Odd, isn't it? Everything you posted is a fallacy.

Also, Baker isn't on the team. Not sure if you are aware of that seeing as how you constantly post about him.

Have another drink.

I thought you had already spoken your "piece". Guess not?

Can't help but take a lame shot though, can you? Speaks volumes about you, however.

As do all your posts.

I'll just copy my last post: I'm not certain I ever asked that before.

I'm throwing NO shade at the Browns.

I'm not a Baker boy, either.

Better buck up and back up your lies.

And as I stated in a different thread, I'm glad the Browns won today.

Odd, isn't it? Everything you posted is a fallacy.

Also, Baker isn't on the team. Not sure if you are aware of that seeing as how you constantly post about him.

Implying I'm a drunk is about as juvenile as one can be. Sad, man. Sad.

Browns Win!

Browns win? Who cares? Aren't we here to argue and prove our pints of view? The game results don't seem to matter.

But seriously, a winning NFL Sunday is always awesome.

You have to understand that for some fans, fandom is predicated on winning. If the team isn't winning, their level of fandom drops significantly.

Honestly that might be true for many fan bases. I am sure there are also fair weather Brown's fans. But to level that against a core base of fans who have followed this team through so many losing season's - I think it's a bit misplaced. I think having come closer to winning over the last 3 years maybe expectations are higher, maybe criticism is elevated? Maybe concern over players, coaches and FO is more intense because fans might believe we're wasting talent? I wouldn't equate criticism as fandom dropping.

I agree, but we see more that simple criticism. At least where I might draw the line. I suppose everybody has a somewhat different line, but I think most have a pretty good grasp of where those somewhat flexible parameters reside.

I guess I simply tune out the extreme opinions that I think are more like rants than real opinions, I mean there's an angry person ranting no-matter what we do right? Likewise do the same with posters trolling for a reaction. I know, I know - I should do that with the hypocritical, bullying and BS agenda posting that I keep commenting on too.

It's called frustration. It's a common human emotion. Next week the Brrowns will be fighting in a game to see who takes last place in the AFC North. Fans aren't happy about that and it's perfectly understandable. It isn't some nefarious and terrible thing. They've been through a lot and deserve a winner. Just because they're frustrated over losing doesn't mean "their level of fandom drops significantly". That's a false narrative.

So what you're trying to pass off as fact is that what they stated publicly that they wanted in a trade for watson was in fact what they demanded behind closed doors? That's like saying a used car salesman won't take anything less than the sticker price. I'm not trying to say you're wrong here. It's possible that you're right. It's also possible you're wrong.

I'm happy with the results of yesterday's game.

We won and he looked like the light switch turned on in the second half

I have already said that I posted this information on here before. This is from a different source, but it's basically saying the same thing. After all these years, you should know I just don't make up. You might detest me at this point, but I have never been a liar and in your heart, you know that is the truth. Here is an excerpt from a longer article.

That ^ proves nothing. You make up *** all the damn time. Your newest made-up line is stating that Browns fans are upset when the Browns WIN with Watson. THEN...state that those unhappy-about-a-win Browns fans (who don't exist in that manner) are just now unhappy because Baker is gone. That is so ridiculously stupid and yet another example of you spewing your alternate-universe-facts that everyone knows is BS.

Just because YOU wanted the Browns to lose with Baker at QB (and then disappeared during the happy-Browns-fan-times) doesn't mean others do now as you did then.

Which in no way states that the least they would take for him is three first round picks plus other picks. And that doesn't mean that I think you're a liar. It means I think that you are taking what they said publicly as what they were willing to take behind closed doors. Like I said before, as if a used car salesman won't take less than the sticker price. I don't believe those teams knew what offers the other teams made. I don't think they all offered the exact same compensation as a result of that. I do think there was a floor of what the Texans were willing to take. I don't think any good negotiator tells the truth in a public announcement if what they're actually willing to take. A good negotiator always asks for more than what they are actually willing to take. I agree with you that the Texans approved the trade compensation of those teams before watson could agree to a contract with any of them. I've also seen nothing to indicate that it was 3 1st round picks plus more. None of us know what the bottom threshold was that the Texans approved among those teams.

And I don't detest you. Some people just take message board back and forth far too seriously. I'm not one of those people.

Y'all are unreal. It proves nothing? LMAO

I'm glad you are so miserable because we won.

Let me know what specific draft picks and compensation was agreed by each team ... I guess with your obsession you will need to find cast iron links. That will "prove" what compensation was agreed. Without that - no-one knows. Example (from memory) - it was reported HOU wanted 3 first round picks. But the Browns gave up 3 first round picks, a 3rd rounder and 2 fourth rounders.... Did others offer as much? More? Did some offer multiple first rounders this year meaning less needed on the back end? Did some of the teams offer back end loaded deals that HOU accepted? .... Maybe you know and can share, because the rest of us don't know. Which is the original statement you are still railing against.

Do you have any evidence that Houston was demanding 3 1st round picks plus even more draft picks for watson other than some public statement indicating it? Do you know what the minimum offer Houston approved among those teams they approved? That's really the only sticking point here. No need to act as though others are acting in bad faith or trying to insult you.

How about you guys show some links that say the Browns were the only team to agree to Houston's demands?

I'm done w/it. The rest of the board will decide on who is telling the truth and who is trying to start a fight.

Yet it wasn't us claiming to know what Houston's demands were and what the offers they approved were. I would be done with it too if I were you.

Refusing to address credible points by you is not an indication other people want to fight. You've used that BS for a long time now when you wish to dodge an actual discussion you want to avoid.

Between the two of us...only one disappeared while things were rolling.

Cannot read all the posts got to lay on a pillow which sends data on my heart to the heart failure specialist.

1. Personally I think Watson is a good QB but I'm not sure how good to overcome the trade value. Again this is with me thinking 100% Healthy we had a QB who could take us the Trophy.

2. Actually I have been surprised not of the rust but of how Watson locks onto a WR and that is it. His decisions have not been good He holds onto the ball way too long. That and his accuracy might be due to the rust we will see.

3. Great defense with good Offense wins championships. 3 first round picks hurts the defense. Cause stud DLmen come from the first round. All the You Tube Browns experts claiming Watson played great half on Sunday...not quite sure how much he won that game. Cooper the first target of a WR made a great play and turned a 1st down into a 50 yd. TD.

Regarding the frozen game what irks me is our opponent adjusted by running the ball and throwing only 4 times the 2nd half - and the irking part as stated terrible conditions to throw the ball and yet we decided to throw the ball 31 times in the game. Stefanski sucks!

Take care guys/gals - Love my Browns hate Watson not as a QB most definitely as a leader and mentor to our children...Hate the fact that my son who I talk football with the most was becoming a Browns fan... NOW he hates the team for the trade of a user of women.

EO...good to hear from you...yep, Watson seems to lock on to #2 a lot, with the other receivers being Watson's second or third option on most plays. I believe Watson is a long way from the QB he once was and it comes down to Watson's mental ability to process his reads. It seems that Watson is struggling with the mental part of the game and trusting his receivers...other than #2.

j/c:

Hmmmm.......


Nick Caserio: There were “a few more” teams interested in Deshaun Watson
Posted by Mike Florio on March 19, 2022, 5:18 PM EDT


Four teams ultimately jockeyed for position to secure the services of Deshaun Watson: Panthers, Saints, Falcons, and Browns. More than four were interested.

The field was cut to four based in large part on teams failing to meet Houston’s threshold trade expectations.


“I would say there was a fair amount of teams, but what we tried to do was bring the teams that had a legitimate interest, and that was based off the compensation that was presented,” Texans G.M. Nick Caserio told reporters on Saturday. “Going back to the earlier questions, I think there was a certain threshold that I had established in order to make it a legitimate discussion, and if we got to that point then we could engage further. I don’t want to get into the exact number, but there was a few more, however many teams than what everybody was reporting towards the end.”

The Colts reportedly inquired, but they had the door slammed in their faces by their division rivals. The real question is which other teams made a trade offer that was deemed too low to secure permission from the Texans to meet with Watson?

That was indeed a genius move by Caserio, the smartest thing the Texans have done in several years. If they had (as I thought they would) allowed Watson to meet with teams and then create a list of those for which he’d waive his no-trade clause, Watson possibly would have decided to waive his no-trade clause for only one team. That would have destroyed Houston’s leverage when the time came to talk trade.

By pre-qualifying teams to trade for Watson by requiring acceptable trade terms to be tendered, the Texans ensured that they would get what they wanted for Watson before letting Watson decide what he wanted.

The fact that a few more teams tried is intriguing, since perhaps one or more were considering swooping in with an offer the Texans would have taken in order to make a last-ditch run at Watson.


https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...more-teams-interested-in-deshaun-watson/

Let me guess..........."this proves nothing." LOL

Well it 100% doesn't tell us what any team offered for Watson. As has been mentioned multiple times - we know what the Browns offered. We don't know what anyone else offered. From your post, I guess you are verifying this?

I get confused... this ongoing 'debate' has had so many angles.

What does this prove, other than the fact that Deshaun is an elite QB and most NFL teams would love to have one?

Yeah. I’ve moved on from Baker, from 2021, the trade for DW, the draft picks we gave up, et cetera.

The draft picks - we just have to deal with that hobbling, and by that mean we have to dig harder into the WR and DL prospects in the next draft.

I’m glad we have DW, he’s an elite, Super Bowl-winning type of QB.

Sorry eotab, I forgot to acknowledge your post. I hope you’re on the mend, I always like your contributions .

Sorry, I think some of you pick.

It was widely reported that there were several teams who met the parameters set by the Texans. I say several because I am not sure at this point, but 4 teams made the cut if I recall correctly. One other team was rejected by the Texans because that were a division team. At that point the Watson team and the approved teams could work out the specifics of the deal.

What the hell are people arguing about here?

It does get confusing because a couple of guys continually want to start fights. I'll be clear about my contentions. There were multiple teams that agreed to the Texans trade demands. No one knows exactly what the trade demands were specifically, but teams agreed to the parameters of what Caserio and the Texans were asking for before they got to meet w/Watson. Thus, the Browns were not alone in offering a king's ransom for Watson and it also shows that Watson was viewed as an extremely valuable commodity by multiple teams. I believe it is nonsense that some were trying to argue that the Browns were the only team willing to agree to the Texans trade demands.

Thank you, peen. If you have been paying attention since I rejoined the board, it is painfully obvious why 888, Pit, arch, and WSU are trying to make this argument.

No need to apologize. Lamp what is stuck in my head is that Oh 5-10 years ago I remember an article and no I am not going to cut and past and link - either take my word for it or not. Possible more than one poster will remember the article.

It was about how impact picks made for a team are necessary especially first rounders. The were noting that if a team Bombed on impact picks for 2 years they were in a hole the Browns were brought up because we were busting on our impact picks - 1999 until 2016 we had pretty bad impact picks...stretches of unbelievable bad. I think 2017 with Garrett broke the Spell. If a team went 2 years they were in Hell for the team build up. Also noted in the article was the teams that went against Franchise and could lose 2 first round picks and that would ruin them ergo why a tag would benefit the team doing the tagging. Combined with remembering the Herschel Walker trade Dallas to Vikings it crippled the Vikings for decades actually just until their recent success but the Defense could take them far as their good Offense gets them in the playoffs this season but Defense not strong enough to win a championship. That is why I made this post. cause its not 2 seasonal 1st rounders but 3 years crippling us.

Vers I'm sure there was interest for Watson...but who made a solid offer giving up what we did???

Also my fear on this is what says Watson will stay here after his 5 years is up...season 1 was a total bust 23,24 still no 1st round picks to build on the team. Will we be a playoff team as we transition from a running team to a passing team - ergo passing 31 times in crazy weather.

jmho

got to run...

The "fight" started because you called WSU a liar for saying just what you wrote - we don't know what teams offered what for Watson. I even wrote a post saying we knew 4 teams had offers accepted, but the DETAILS were unknown - and you dug in, started insulting people more and now were here and you are back tracking and playing victim again. Familiar pattern.

There you go. From your own keyboard.

888 is lying yet again. I wish the Refs would step in and suspend him for his constant lies. I did not say a word to WSU until AFTER he called me a liar.

This is the crap that Memphis was referring to on the Player News thread. I do try and let a lot of 888's lies go, but if I don't say anything, people are going to actually believe his crap.

First WSU post:


Vers Calling him a liar:


My response:



That's all there in this thread, in that order.

And here we have Vers throwing out names and calling people liars endlessly. I agree - I really do wish the Refs would step in.

Well at least you finally admitted they weren't demanding three first round picks behind closed doors. And then you blame everyone else for it. Typical Vers.

I'm certainly glad sane people run this board and not you.

j/c:

Lolz.

Yes, he is the one who claimed Houston demanded 3 1st round picks. There's zero doubt about it and you provided undeniable proof of it. He also called WSU a liar after claiming he did not. I wonder if he feels he should be held to the same standard of being suspended that he says others should be held to when he claims they are lying? Even in this case where he's actually lying about other posters lying like he just did to you?

So "we believe" is what sealed it for you?

Yes. I believe Rappoport's info over children squabbling on here.

That and they rejected a trade a year prior that included three first round picks.....but yeah, they wanted less a year later.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...nd-three-first-round-picks-before-draft/

Deshaun Watson Worth 'At Least' 3 1st-Round Draft Picks in Trade, Per NFL Exec
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...-round-draft-picks-in-trade-per-nfl-exec

"NFL executives believe Houston Texans quarterback Deshaun Watson is worth at least three first-round picks on the trade market.

According to ESPN's Jeremy Fowler, an anonymous NFC exec said: "Oh yeah—he's worth at least that. The haul would be pretty insane."

Arguably the market was set two years prior.

And some more.....

Multiple teams offered packages, including three first-round picks, for Deshaun Watson
https://www.nfl.com/news/multiple-t...g-three-first-round-picks-for-deshaun-wa

Again, one year before Watson was traded.

"We believe" isn't info. He doesn't even report it as being factual.

I know you don't like me, but thank you for posting that information. I wasn't lying. I don't lie and I have a long history of not lying. I might make a mistake, but I don't do it intentionally. I remember posting the particulars of this a long time ago. I haven't searched hard, but I did a couple of quick searches and did not see the Rappaport one or the Shefty one that I previously posted. Anyway, thanks again.

Ah, those pesky little non facts being posted as facts.

Why don't you post a link that only the Browns were willing to meet the Texans trade demands. You guys ask for links and then dismiss them when they are provided, yet you post nothing to support the claim that the Browns were the only team that satisfied what the Texans wanted.

Alright boys and girls; if you're trying to follow this somehow-ever-unfolding saga, here's what we know so far...


A bunch of teams wanted Watson, teams realize the quickest road to the promised land is an elite QB... Surprise, surprise.

A few teams were willing and able to ante up the insane assets required to get their foot in the door and negotiate.

The Browns were one of those teams.

Since the assets were deemed adequate, it's safe to say Deshaun was ready to choose a different team when the media proclaimed the Browns were "out".

Haslam Backed up a Brinks truck.

Deshaun said he wanted to play here all along.

Deshaun is a Brown with the richest contract in NFL history.


People are still arguing over who wanted him the most, who offered the most, how many teams were window shopping, how much he is really worth, etc, etc... None of that changes the timeline or course of events.


What is the point of all this??

I don't know what you're trying to argue. Didn't the Texans say the price to even negotiate was a minimum of three 1st round picks? Straight from the horses mouth isn't factual enough??

I agree w/the money angle and that is why I NEVER brought that into the conversation. I don't know this for a fact, but it's logical to assume that the Browns offered Watson more money than the other teams, especially since he initially rejected the Browns.

My point all along was that multiple teams agreed to what the what the Texans were asking for. The Browns were NOT the only team to do so. I am fairly certain that 5 teams agreed to satisfy what the Texans wanted in return for Watson. I do remember something about the Browns and Texans sorting out the particulars after Watson did say he wanted to go to Cleveland, but I'm not sure what those particulars were.

What I want to make clear is that I did NOT lie about this and I'm sick of being followed around and being accused of doing so by the same few people day in and day out. I do realize that this was probably really hard for guys like you to follow since there were so many different posts. I'm just trying to make my position clear.

You really have no idea how this works and love trying to turn the tables don't you? It was YOU who made the claim it took 3 1st round picks. You and nobody but you. NO statement was made in anything provided on this board that provides anything proving that. "We think and we believe" are not statements of fact. They never have been. Nobody said that it didn't take 3 1st round picks. Only that nobody has any way of knowing what the actual parameters were and what was offered by the other teams. It was you making the claim you did. And here I thought you had been an English teacher.

They made a public statement to that effect at the beginning of all of this. Nobody has any idea of what they were actually willing to take in the negotiations that took place behind closed doors. Every business deal has negotiations. And generally speaking, nobody pays the initial asking price for anything if they have a clue how to negotiate. As I said, there is no actual evidence that shows what all of these teams offered.

Oh, I know exactly how it works w/you guys.

In your own mind. You are the one who made the claim. Nobody else. The only thing anybody else said is you had no way to prove that. You did claim that the Texans would take nothing less than 3 1st round picks. Then you claimed you didn't say that. That's how it really worked.

I know I made the claim. I also know the 4 guys who acted like I was lying and would not let it go. Just wondering.........do y'all ever get sick of being wrong?

There is evidence, you just don't want to acknowledge it as such. You want to hide behind ambiguity because we don't have a spreadsheet with every team's offer. If the Texans said three 1st round picks was the price of admission, and five teams entered negotiations, you can bet that five teams offered three 1st round picks.

And generally speaking, supply and demand enters all negotiations. Limited amount of elite QBs, all teams want one = there isn't any real 'wiggle room'. If a house is listed for $250,000, and there are four other offers, you gonna bid 235? That doesn't show that you're savvy... that shows that you are dumb... and at the end of the day, the loser. You can call those that didn't lowball "clueless", but it just shows you refuse to apply common sense for the sake of more endless argument.

The point is someone said we don't know what other teams offered for Watson. True statement. That poster was called a liar by the resident cancer.

Read my post in response to this original interaction. I even acknowledged and tipped my hat to it being known (widely reported) what Houston was asking and that 4 teams seemed to have made the cut so to speak - but that the actual/real DETAILS of what was offered and accepted was not known.

I've since been called a liar too - and generally much maligned by the cancerous one. And I realized what at least part of the issue is - when a poster has a disagreement with Vers and in their posts explains a position that either refutes or challenges Vers postion - he simply cries victim, starts calling everyone a liar and other names. Just look at the talk centered around the "Top 5" defense that Vers has mentioned many, many times in the last 2 years. When we dug a little deeper - it was top 5 in yards given up, 14th in points allows, 11th in DVOA. When all that was presented - Vers started name calling and deflecting and acting like a victim again. Shocker I know.

Thus far you haven't proven anyone else wrong despite your grandiose claim to the contrary.

Nobody stated any facts supporting what the offers of the other teams were. None. "We believe" isn't evidence of a fact. Sometimes people try to put things off as facts that were never presented that way. That's how they get fooled into believing things that aren't true.

So exactly what did the losers actually offer again? Yeah, that's what I thought. After all that word salad you have no idea.

I hope this conversation ends soon, but Memphis actually posted reports from reputable news sources while others have not. I would not say he is the one talking out of his ass.

And those sources only said what they believe and think while giving no statement of facts.

JMHO, worst trade ever......Browns get Ernie Davis- give up a first and an all pro in Mitchell.....Davis never plays a down. One of the reasons NFL started combine/ physicals.....GO Browns!!!!

Here are some all-time bad trades...Each posted below in it's own post

Pulled them from this link if you want to look at some of their other thoughts.
https://www.thesportster.com/football/top-15-worst-trades-in-nfl-history/

New Orleans Trades Up to Get Ricky Williams

After featuring on the cover of ESPN Magazine in a wedding dress alongside Saints head coach Mike Ditka, Ricky Williams was not the solution to the team’s woes. Perhaps that is because of the massive price tag that the Saints paid for Williams, which included basically their entire 1999 draft class and a 1st and 3rd round pick the following year. Losing an entire year of talent was too much for the Saints to overcome, despite Williams rushing for over 1,000 yards during two of his three seasons with the team. Williams was then dealt to the Miami Dolphins for four draft picks including two 1st rounders.

Raiders get 4th Round Pick for Randy Moss

The New England Patriots knew they were acquiring one of the greatest wide receivers in the history of the NFL when they swapped the Oakland Raiders a 4th round pick for the services of Randy Moss. Moss was coming off a lackluster season and appeared to be frustrated with the Raiders before leaving to become Tom Brady’s favorite target. Moss flourished in the new offense, with 23 touchdown receptions in his first season en route to the Patriots making a legendary 20 game winning streak into the Super Bowl

Herschel Walker to Vikings

In October 1989, a wild notion on a morning jog from Jimmy Johnson led the Cowboys to trade the team’s star running back, Herschel Walker, which was the deal that started a dynasty. The Cowboys were more than willing to part with Walker, two 3rd round picks, one 5th round pick, and one 10th round pick in order to receive the haul of the century from the Vikings. The Vikings gave up several players in addition to three 1st round picks, three 2nd round picks, one 3rd round pick, and one 6th round pick. The Cowboys used several of the picks to select franchise cornerstones like Emmett Smith and Darren Woodson, but were able to move several of the picks to acquire other players. The genius move orchestrated by Johnson and Jerry Jones helped the Cowboys win three Super Bowls by 1995.

Packers Bet the Farm on John Hadl

Once upon a time in 1974, the Green Bay Packers were absolutely desperate for a quarterback and Dan Devine believed a veteran quarterback would lead them to the Super Bowl. John Hadl was fresh off of leading the Rams to the playoffs and was dealt to the Packers for an amazing haul of five draft picks. Hadl was a 33-year-old quarterback at the time of the trade and would go on to start only 19 games for the Packers, going 7-12 in those games. For their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks in 1975 and their 1st and 2nd round picks in 1976, the Packers received only 9 touchdown passes from Hadl.

REPOST:


The liars lament is that once the lying starts, the liar loses track of what he said and what other lies are built upon the first lie.

After all the information that Memphis posted, I think most of the board recognizes who was telling the truth and which small group of posters were attacking another poster. I can live w/that.

Agreed...nothing says more than words from your own keyboard.

j/c:

So now that we've all seen Watson play several games as our QB what are you guys thinking about him? I'm curious.

He takes a lot of sacks, we knew that, on display today.
He throws interceptions, at least one in every, just about every playoff type Big game, .. could have been known, on display today.
He can make some big throws and 3 TD days wow touchdown passes, could have been known, on display last week.

He runs around in the pocket sometimes like plastic man, happened today.

He can be the reason for a loss the same as a reason for a win.

He didn't do anything to make me rethink my thought that he has a limited ceiling of per game production, of about 3.five TD passes

same old Watson, for bad or For Good.

You could be right but DW would still the best QB we've had since Bernie even at 75-80%. JMO

$230 million doesn't buy what it used to.

A chevy will get you where you're going just as well as a mercedez, rusty or not.

Why? What has he done here? Did you see something elite?

Watson 2022 stats

6 games

170 attempts
99 completions
58.2% completion %
1103 passing yards
6.5 avg.
7 TDs
5 INTs
79.1 Rating
38.6 QBR

Can't get much worse than this...
Baker had a destroyed arm last year and had better stats in (almost every) category.

That little post is going to raise the hair on someone's neck.

If it's factual, it shouldn't.

But, I guarantee the excuses will come.

Made me think here is Baker's last 6 games in 2021. He led the team to 2 wins and 4 loses.

193 attempts
103 completions
53.3 % completion%
1,093 passing yards
5.5 avg
9 TDs
10 INTs
52.8 Rating
34.6 QBR

As you can see Baker's stats were worse than what Watson put up and he had played all season when Watson was shaking the rust off wfter missing 2021 and 11 games in 2022. Which is why Baker is no longer a Brown, a Panther, and probably will be an ex-Ram.

You picked 6 games out of Baler's full season when his arm was basically hanging on by 1 tendon.

Watson has no excuse. The rust should have been shaken off in training camp or after 1 game.

*I don't think Baker is the answer. My point was Watson hasn't been worth 230 mill and 3 first round picks. (10th pick next year).

He looks cuttable/tradeable like Baker.

Hopefully, he figures it out next year.

I remember in O>seven ish, When Derek Anderson had his best year, one thing he'd do regularly that came from the start,
and easy to overlook
b/c he was a backup, coming in, and making little by little happen,
what he did was even if many of the drives were scrap held together with bailing wire, Derek Anderson would lead the team to five to seven scoring drives per game.
Pretty elite to do week after week more times than noticed. Esp. when you consider, who did it before or since? I don't know if anybody.

I did not cherry pick. I simply picked the last 6 games Baker played in 2021. Kept it as apples to apples as possible with DeShaun's 6 games. DeShaun was shaking rust of missing 1 full season and 11 games. When everyone was in mid-season form, he was attempting to operate in a brand-new offense from the one he last operated in. He was trying to figure out how to best utilize the talent around him since he never played with them before. They were also, trying to figure out how to play with a brand new QB they never played with before. I do fully expect that we see a completely different DeShaun next year after he completed an entire off-season program with his new teammates and builds chemistry on and off the field with them. He went .500 in his first 6 games to end this season and put-up better stats than last year's so called QB.

j/c:

Yep, the Fabulous Baker Boys have "moved on."

But the Baker troll hasn't.

Can we drop another $230 million to get another 4-point bump in QBR?
Maybe we can crack 60% and 1200 yds?!

Baker's arm was also taped to his body the last 6 games of the season. So, it's probably not even a fair comparison.

Watson signed his contract in March of 2022.
He was given a playbook at that time.
He had all of training camp to practice with the team.
He has had 7 months to learn the offense... before he played his first game.
He knows all of the plays and who his first and second and third reads are in the offense.
He had 2 weeks of practice before playing his first game.
He was up to speed by the time he stepped onto the field.

If you look at all of the players that come back from IR in the middle of the season (after being out from the year before), none of them look rusty after 1-2 games.
Watson looked like back backup QB.

Watson's QBR average was 34.6 putting him at #31 between Miles Davis and Mack Jones.
Watson's QB rating average was 79.1 putting him at # 30 between Carson Wentz and Baker Mayfield.

Watson's stats (this year) are worse in pretty much every category compared to his rookie year.

And he is still an upgrade over Baker!!!

Right. I'm the one who brought Baker up.

Let's see what Watson does playing a whole season first.

Watson's escapability and pocket sense is extraordinary. He still has that aspect of his gaem

If we are nearly seeing the ceiling of his ability to read defenses pre and post snap and the speed of his progressions, then I think most fans will be disappointed come the close of the 2023 season. I still don't believe the value of the Watson trade has anything to do with Baker - BM time here was done and exemplified in this last game where TJ Watt got chipped every play even with Watson's elevated pocket awareness and athleticism. Compare that to last year where repeatedly Watt was left 1 on 1 versus our 3rd string LT and much less athletic QB who was badly hurt ... I think at that point the relationship was already dead and buried. At the time I didn't want to believe a HC would hang a player out to dry, but after the 4th, 5th, 6th sack maybe you make an adjustment. But 9 sacks and four by Watt - and still going 1 on 1 with Watt?

Not yet... But I certainly hope you turn out to be right.

And Baker wasn't signed to a 230 million dollar guaranteed contract. Can you explain what Baker's numbers have to do with a QB the Browns chose to pay 230 million? Thanks in advance.

The post I was referencing said Baker had better stats in almost every category (you conveniently left that off your post) and I was showing that he did not. Watson was actually an improvement from that bust over the last 6 games this year vs last year. I fully expect Watson to be much improved from these 6 starts next year. But as lack luster as they were they were better than Baker's.

Once again you have decided to ignore who brought him up in the first place and only address those who responded. Some things never change.

Oh come on, Comparisons are only natural..

The sad part about this set of numbers is that it's just like their career stats! Damn near identical.

I have another question. In our gameday threads the same poster has posted repeatedly that, "Watson can't read a defense." Is this true? Somewhat true? Not true at all?

What do you think? Thanks in advance.

Not true. He has demonstrated in the past that he is very good at reading defenses. That does not go away.

I think only the coaches and the QB himself REALLY know. In his six games this year, he didn't really do anything special - including what looks like a reading of the defense.

Our offensive pass-catching weapons have been subpar for a long time - and this year was no different. When pass-catchers run wide open, you'll look like a great reader of a defense. When they don't...you won't.

If you look at his last 2 playoff games vs the Buffalo Bills and the Kansas City Chiefs he throws for 635 yards with 3 TD's and 0 Int's and an average QBR of 108.5. Does that sound like a QB that cannot read defenses? By the way he beat the Bills and lost to Chiefs.

I also read where a poster was saying he throw's interceptions in big playoff caliber games. That does not seem to be the truth either. Sounds like a poster that just does not like Watson, the team in general, or was just trolling.

Watson missed a lot of football over the last 2 seasons. Defenses evolve and scheme rapidly. He’s got his work cut out for him. What could possibly go wrong?

I don't disagree...but those playoff games were a long, long time ago...and with guys who can/could get open and catch the ball.

My point of view is that we can't say - after 6 games here - whether we was/will-be good or bad at reading defenses here.

You don't have a clue about reading defenses. You are pulling things out of your behind because you are mad the Browns moved on from Baker.

Where did I claim that I believed Watson cannot read a defense? You are the only poster on here who pulls Baker thoughts out of his own behind.

Geesh the same old same old...smh

I again happen to believe Baker was good enough to win a championship with...but the key to us doing so is through the D not the O. I said that all along. When Brisset played I said that, When Baker played injured I said that. When Watson played I said that.

Rust: We all expected it after all he didn't play for 2 seasons. Watson's body should have been in pristine condition. His throwing arm and technique was not in too much rust. What has surprised me because I was told how good he was but the part that I totally got to see was unexpected as Watsons pre snap reads were not good, He didn't go through progressions as promised. He didn't sit in the pocket and hitch up out of danger he basically would just take off, run around and get sacked. But the kicker is the trade that I claim to be bad...Not Watson as I don't think we are seeing the finished product yet.

Fact: It is a tough mountain to climb on losing out on 3 years of first round picks.

Last year at # 13 we could have had Jordan Davis for our Defense - A DT (hmmm could we have used one?) at 340 who played for the NCAA Champions Bulldogs and ran a 4.78 40 which is just unheard of and a once in a decade talent that would benefit playing along side Garrett. Or if that was not your flavor we could have picked Jahan Dotson an amazing WR prospect that would have went well along side Cooper and DPJ.

This year at # 10 We could have Bryan Bresee DT or Paris Johnson OT - just a quick look at the 2023 draft.

The trade is why Kevin Stefanski will not be considered to get fired this year. He is a terrible HC, Oh right he won HC of the year in a year that there was not much coaching because of Covid and his ONE GAME OF FAME winning a Playoff game for our Browns...oh wait he could not coach that game cause of Covid. But his glaring weaknesses popped up in all our losses - His desire to pass, pass, and pass so that for example in our last game. The best player on O (not Watson) is Chubb. He ran 12 times for 77 yds a fantastic 6.5 yds per carry. But Stef is closely linked to Watson. We fear the only thing that can make this trade worse that what it is would be to lose Watson after his 5 year contract is up.

When the trade was made I looked at Watson and his incredible stats in 2020 what really bothered me was after having those stats the teams record was 4-12 terrible just terrible I think it was 4-10 under Watson as he might have missed 2 games??? that bothered me a lot.

Well I tried to tell all this was not a Watson vs. Mayfield thread but some just cant let it go. This was about THE TRADE which had Watson involved and his play is in question as it must be not good but GREAT to start justifying this Trade. Have a happy New year everyone and who will you be rooting for in the playoffs? KC? Bills? Cowboys? Hey at least we got the draft to look forward to...OH WAIT no we don't.

jmho

It's kind of hard not to compare the two when you start off w/saying you think Baker was good enough to win the championship with and then proceed to trash Watson. Please answer this, tab.

If Baker was "good enough" why didn't any teams want to trade for him until we had to agree w/Carolina to pay a large part of his contract? Why did the Browns want to move on from him in the first place. Why did only one team claim him off of waivers? Why is ranked at the bottom of the qb rankings while being healthy?

Why were multiple team willing to sell the farm for Watson if he isn't all that? Why did he receive such a large contract if he isn't very good?

This worst trade ever link became a Baker vs Watson...and the trades to make that happen....OK.

Chubb might be best O player, but PLEASE don't forget he got STUFFED multiple times- as stated before, we must pass and run to do either well. It IS a passing league. Watson, minus the rust, is FAR superior to the best of Baker. There is a reason Baker has BOUNCED from team to team....he may, but probably won't EVER start in the league as THE MAN for any other team. Time will tell.

I said what I said because I wanted to clarify my true beliefs which does eliminate the desperation in deciding to make a "BAD" Trade.

But you are so intent maybe by others who wish to debate you on this subject. Instead of reading and understanding someone's opinion you totally missed the key statement which was not that I believed we could win with Baker (A healthy Baker) you bring up Panthers which is not relevant as he was still recovering from surgery. But I look at Baker who prior to getting injured in 2021 had the 3rd highest Completion % in the history of the NFL in their first two games of a season. Anywho...you sucked me in lol I just was being very honest but you instead wish to bring on the debate as that is important to you throughout...your hatred for Baker. You know what is funny Vers. In your hatred for Baker you lambasted him for a LACK OF CHARACTER cause on his 21st birthday he got stinking drunk and attempted to run away from campus police...You told us how his Character was bad.

Me my dislike for Watson is not in his QB play but for the fact that 60+ women made a complaint about his sexual predator conduct and 24 took him to court on it. And you sit there claiming Baker had bad character and now Character does not have a play in this.
But for me it had a big play. We committed a fully guaranteed contract on a QB with terrible character the worst by any Browns player and probably the only one worst in the history of the NFL was Hernandez the murdering TE.

Sop take your debate with the Baker boys. ANSWER this, how can you back a QB with a low life character such as Watson. I am ashamed to be a Browns fan but I was convinced to root for the Browns not the QB which I did so.

But this thread is not remotely involved with me trying to prove that Baker could have or have not taken us to a Championship. He was one play away with a SB challenge in 2020. A Defense to be invessted in and become one of top 3 in the NFL I thought would get us there. But you go ahead and keep on beating that dead horse. I stated that I thought Watson would improve on his play but would not be that Mahomes, Brees, Brady difference maker, it would be the D same as with Baker.

Even out of desperation its a bad trade on the character issue alone.
jmho

Baker will never sit down as a backup in the NFL. He’s proven that twice, asking for a trade here and asking to be released from the Panthers. Maybe he’s learned from his mistakes, maybe not.

We disagree on some things, but I respect your opinion. I will only add that I can support Watson because he was never even tried in a court of law, nevermind found guilty. I am not omniscient. I have no idea what is the truth and what is not the truth. I am not asking you to agree w/me about that, but I don't really want to get into that here because it's not "Pure Football."

Anyways, I continue to pray for you and I truly wish you the best in your continued health issues.

I’d say it’s a toss up between Watson and Big Ben. Difference being the penalty handed out to DW was twice as much. BTW, Jim Brown’s character wasn’t spotless. Lot’s of bad hombres go through the NFL. Most straighten themselves out. A few don’t.

Ray Carruth, Michael Vick, Ben R and Pacman Jones agree.

Which is a very odd thing for you to be saying..... now.

You see, before the hearing entrusted to Judge Sue Robinson, we both claimed we would honor her decision. But you seem be confused about what that means or have decided to accept the part you choose to accept and dismiss the rest. Because the punishment phase of her ruling is based on her findings. Without finding what and if someone did something wrong, there is no punishment. The punishment is nothing more than the end result of the findings which is actually what the decision made is solely based on.

I kept my word and accepted her findings as I said I would. In their entirety. You on the other hand have chosen to pick and choose which part of her decision to accept and which part to cast aspersions on.

If you choose to accept her finding, then he has now fulfilled his punishment and there should be a forgiveness stage. That was not the law of the land trial so to speak. That was a ruling that stated in the NFL's eyes did he commit conduct detrimental to the league. In the law of the country, we live in he was never found guilty because they did not find enough evidence to prosecute. Now he seems to have been tried and convicted in the jury of public opinion but not in a jury of his peers. There is a difference. As far as the NFL goes, he has now doe his time and we should all move on.

Forgiveness is earned not given. I have heard nothing from watson asking for forgiveness or an apology. Talk to me after that happens about forgiveness. I'm simply pointing out who made the claim they would accept her decision and who is and is not honoring their word in that regard. You can spin her ruling any way you like, But she described exactly what she found him having done. After which she concluded those actions broke the NFL personal conduct policy. Like I said, some people like to include the parts they want to and ignore the rest.

Nobody is trying to convince you to accept her ruling. There were simply some on this board who said they would. I know both myself and Vers were.

People are entitled to believe what they want to believe. I chose to believe an experienced judge who actually heard all of the evidence. That too is my choice.

Pit likes to speak for other people and their intentions because he likes to fight. I did accept Sue Robinson's ruling, which was six games. However, trying to imply that Sue Robinson was the judge in a court of law in this case is an outright lie. The ruling was in regards to whether or not Watson violated the NFL's Personal Conduct Code. It did not go on Watson's legal record. He is not on file as a sexual predator. He did not serve jail time. He never even went to a legal trial in an actual court of law. There are just a few guys that try to make this something it is not and Pit is typically at the center of such things.

I didn't make any claim she was a judge in a court of law in this case. I claimed you said you would accept her decision when in fact you only accept the punishment. There is no punishment without ruling on the facts of the case. I'm sorry you wish to blame me for something you chose to do which was to choose the accept the punishment while rejecting everything else. That's not what you said you would do but the decision didn't work the way you wanted it to. So you decided to accept the punishment but not what he was actually punished for. That's not my issue. You can stoplying by making the claim I tried to say, or even imply this was a court of law.

We both knew and know it wasn't a court of and and nothing I have said here in any way implies that. But we both agreed to accept her decision, not just the part of it we agreed with. I did and you didn't.

None of your lies or temper tantrums will change any of that.

I have said I accepted her decision dozens of time. You just want to fight so you run around me making up things that are false.

Just to throw a wrench into this, the NFL chose not to except her ruling, would that not make her ruling null and void?

The punishment phase is not the decision. This isn't complicated. The punishment phase is only the end of the process. There is no punishment without the finding of what someone is being punished for and the conduct that is the reasoning for the punishment. I understand how your desire to deny that requires you to blame someone else for pointing it out, claiming that's their fault because they want to fight and acting as though it isn't true. That's a you issue.

Well, the NFL sure as hell did not accept her ruling. Also, Pit and others did not accept her initial ruling and wanted the punishment increased.

For the record........I said I would accept her ruling and have done so. However, that is in terms of his punishment w/the NFL. Legally speaking, I would not accept any ruling that was not done in a court of law. I believe in our system. It has flaws, but it's the best we have. It sure beats witch hunts. And here is the kicker that no one has bothered to explore because they want to win an argument. Had Sue Robinson ruled that Watson deserved no punishment and did not come close to doing anything wrong......I would have not said that proves Watson's innocence.

Truth is that I have no idea what the truth is or isn't. He might be innocent. He might be guilty. I don't know and will not judge his innocence or guilt if it hasn't been proven in a court of law.

Not wanting to fight? LMAO..........You come on here every single day and rarely do you have an original thought. Instead, you attack the opinions of other posters as if you are some sort of judge on what is right and not. It screams of a miserable person w/a fragile ego. Constantly belittling others to prove how great you are. We would all be better off if you just posed your opinions on the matter instead of belittling multiple posters day in and day out. Carry on, but I'm done w/you.

You were replying to yourself, right?

Here you have exchanged the words "her decision" with "her ruling". Even so, her ruling includes her finding of the facts. You have no punishment without the facts you have determined that you base the punishment upon. You still can't seem to comprehend that part can you?

I accepted her punishment although I didn't think it was severe enough based on the facts she stated that the punishment was based on. You know, acting in a predatory manner and egregious conduct he perpetrated on these women. By throwing out his version of events she took the word of those women over the word of watson. So she obviously didn't believe him either.

I was happy the NFL increased the suspension however. It felt far more fitting according to what Judge Sue Robinson found the facts of the case to be.

You know there used to be a poster on here who claimed he gave the counterpoints in these discussions. Then he left for a long time. Oh wait, that was you. Were you just trying to fight? You crack me up.

They accepted her ruling but didn't accept the eventual punishment, which she herself said was not enough; however, NFL precedent dictated it. As far as I know, the entire football world accepted her ruling, including her use of the word predator. The only people I see denying that have some DW fetish where star QBs can assault women, and it doesn't count.

Who are those people? I haven't seen anyone post anything of the sort on here.

Talking heads' reactions when the report came out.

JC



Are we back on this again?

This is really even more simple than the rest of your post(s).... there is one person who has listened and adjudicated over al the evidence. That person is a highly respected former judge. She heard the case against Watson, not in a court of law but as an independent arbitrator. She literally lambasted Watson in her ruling and tore him a new one, and she highlighted he has shown no remorse for his actions and she summarized his behavior as having exhibited predatory behavior and had committed sexual assault as defined by the NFL.

Debating the length of suspension or any other aspect of this is a deflection of the facts. One respected judged heard the evidence and came to an unambiguous decision and branding of what Watson was guilty of. End of story.

Anyone defecting from this and saying there is any doubt of what Watson is most probably guilty of is lying to you or lying to themselves. Period. There's no real reason to keep talking about it - but here we are with folks sort of trying to debate the definition of the word "is" as a means to deflect.

Can't get any clearer than that - Thanks 888

Yes, they won't stop. Same few people over and over and over again.

That is like the pot calling the kettle black tenfold!

The funny thing is, for most of us 'Baker Boys', we've moved on and are just trying to have honest discussions about our concerns. But if you say anything remotely negative or question DW's greatness, then you can expect Vers to rush to his defense and attack you, demean you, or talk about you in the third party as if he is not directing what he is saying at you. Maybe next year we can all start on the same page. But it's beginning to look like things will be this way for a few years.

Yep, it's a fan forum where each person is supposed to be able to post opinions about the Cleveland Browns. Of course, that opinion better fall within the guidelines of the chosen one or you can expect attacks, and just plain nastiness, The funny part is if your opinion happens to contain undisputable facts, you can expect to be threatened to be blocked. Works out well most of the time because you can then move on to another topic without being immediately attacked unless you get a group agreeing with your post then it's like waking up a hibernating angry bear.

It's not just legit criticism of DW - I've seen legit criticism of Stefanski similarly dismissed and the name calling and "Baker Boys" deflection similarly used.

Hate getting sucked into this but here goes.

Watson not being tried on this so therefore I think he is innocent until proven guilty.
1. something like 95% of these cases NEVER GO TO TRIAL. It is embarrassing and emotionally damaging to the victims so they almost always take the settlement.
2. The shear numbers of cases sort of tells all to me - its common sense. Also the settlements are very similar to a plea deal in reality. Somebody who has One case and none before or after just like a plea deal I can give plaintiff the benefit of the doubt....but 24 that spells repeat offender to me. jmho that is my opinion and I gave my reasoning behind that opinion.

It is just part of why this trade is one of the worst in our history. We've had so many drafts and opportunities to groom a QB that it smells of INCOMPETENCE on the part of our coaches and organization. So instead of fixing it (Incompetence of our owners) we have decided to sell our Character out to the devil.

I see a very talented player making the entire offense about him and breaking off the play and run around to get a pass off hardly ever throwing it away so that if not completed if ends up a LOSS putting us in definite passing situations. competion % and yardage will be nice - once the rust comes off the INTs will come down I'm sure. But will we win...cause now we won't have the run game. Actually we are forcing ourselves to get rid of Chubb - might as well cause if we don't use him hey get a draft pick - he is one of the few RBs that could get us a good pick in return. Chubb has one game at 3.8 yds per carry and it is said his game is falling off but we have to remember we have gone away from the "TEAM COMMITMENT" TO RUN the ball! We are without a doubt a PASSING TEAM NOW.

tab, I did not want to answer your earlier question because I knew the board bullies would come out w/more personal attacks, but I did reply to you because you asked respectfully and I've been worried about you. However, I am going to bow out of this conversation due to the aforementioned posters who want to fight and demean others. You can PM me if you like and we can talk.

Yet you made a comment about it before I did. Funny how all you have is deflection for the very same thing you did. You helped open the door and I responded. At least be honest about it this time.

Oh the irony!

The worst trade ever? Not even close to Paul Warfield to Miami for a #1 pick, which we used on Mike Phipps, who did ok we did make the playoffs with him, but he was average at best while Warfields bust is in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, Now that's a trade no one has ever forgotten ...

True enough.

But future trades with Phipps ended up netting us Newsome.

Strange how things go.

I agree and brought up that trade earlier in this thread.

The Phipps thing in interesting. The trade happened one year after I started loving the Browns as an 8-year-old. I remember him well and over time my memory was he was among the all-time lousy "name" QBs. Now that I am retired and love to watch old YouTube videos of "This Week in Pro Football" with Summerall & Brookshier, I have changed my tune a bit.

I didn't realize bow big, strong and athletic he looked. His stats were bad for his career, especially when compared to today's QBs with no play calling responsibility and rules that make them get hit much less frequently, he had some pretty good games. He made a play against Pittsburgh where he broke at least 2-3 sack tackles, scrambled around and threw an accurate deep ball with a charging lineman right in his face. I gained respect for him the past 3-4 years.

It took him a while to break the lineup because we had Bill Nelson still able to walk. That is back when rookies QBs were not expected to start right away, even if they were high draft picks.

I'm sorry but the Mike Phipps trade has to be the worst. At 6'3 and 210 LBS. he was big for an early "70's QB. He was strong and maybe athletic, but he was horrible. 49% completion rate and 55TD passes and 108 INT's for one of the best receivers of his generation. We got fleeced. We're no better at picking QB's now than we were 50+ years ago. At least we got Ozzie Newsome out of it. That's why we had to trade 3 #1 picks and pay DW 230 million.

I thought Phipps was garbage. He had almost twice as many career interceptions as TDs. That is mind boggling.

I loved his replacement, Brian Sipe. He is my favorite Browns QB of all time. Undersized and not a big arm. Not even sure if he was drafted. Came from the USFL. But, the guy was a real leader. Extremely intelligent. Gutsy as the come. And he was productive.

We replaced him w/the stiff that was Paul McDonald. I yi yi yi.


Edit:

I misspoke about Sipe. He was drafted in the 13th round and spent his first two years on the Reserve Squad. He went to the USFL after he left the Browns.

Actually, Sipe was drafted in the 13th round. It's a toss up for me who was my favorite qb - sipe, or kosar.

Sipes USFL career came after the nfl.

You are correct. I edited it a few minutes ago.

It is part of the trade effect: We are going to change our offensive commitment to that of a passing attack Our usage of Chubb will go down so I say if that is the case (not my choice) TRADE CHUBB. Now we are looking into changing into a 3-4 defense (the choice of the Haslams) so I think a sure HOF DE will be Garrett and we will have to trade him (I think we can get two 1st round picks) because Garrett is not a LB and would lose his status trying to become one, actually I think he would be demanding a trade. Woopee oh what a mess all a carryover of the trade.

This all comes down to be careful of what you ask for. Of course these are a lot of worst case scenarios playing in my head. This all bothers me cause we were on the cusp of acquiring team talent in a way we never had before. 3 All Pros on our team. Bitonio, Chubb and Garrett!!

Vers if posters bother you just ignore when they do so - we are getting too old for the chest beating I will kick your butt in Mantra.
My doors are always open to any poster who wish to discuss or ask questions. Hehehe something Ski should have done a long time ago.

I understand the thought on Chubb. As with you I don't want that, andI doubt we will, but long term, Chubb isn't the best type of back to complement Watsons skill set.

As for Garrett, he can play in any defensive front a team wants to play. I don't see any reason to trade him.

Serious question; what is the right type of back to complement Watson's skillset? I mean, if he can't work with a top 5 back and his top 10 backup, I doubt you'll find a type to fit. I assume you are saying he needs a back that is quick to get outside and who is more reliable in the passing game... I put that on the line and coaching more than anything else. Between Chubb and Hunt, Watson should be able to move the ball on the ground just fine. The line must successfully pass block first, though, and play calling definitely plays a factor in the run game's success and how Watson performs.

I don't agree that Chubb isn't the right type of back for Watson. Both could work effectively w/anyone. I think Chubb's age and cost will eventually lead to him leaving the Browns though.

During the playoffs last year, I came to the realization that the Browns were toast w/Baker at qb because the AFC was loaded w/young, stud QBs. These guys might make mistakes. They might play poorly. But, the are difference makers who can still win you a game when they are not at their best. I did not think getting a guy like Matt Ryan, Cousins, Jimmy G, or any of the guys in the draft would be enough to challenge the great, young qbs in the conference. We made the trade for a truly elite qb that is also young and I realized that our leadership finally "gets it." Watson did not look good this year. Perhaps he never will. However, it the reward was worth the risk.

A year later and look at this:

Watson plays best out of the gun of some sort. I don't think that best fits Nicks running style.

Nick isn't a good run at the line type runner. He is better going outside to find his lanes. He also isn't a plus receiver. With Watson I think you need a plus receiver and a one cut runner...similar to a Hunt in his prime.

Again, I don't want Chubb gone and am not saying we should trade him. I am simply saying that if we seek to maximize Watsons skill set, the type of O we need to evolve might not be the best type of O for Chubb to excel.

I love the way you can voice an opinion without including some bias rant. I'm in total agreement with your diagnosis for the changing schemes on the horizon coming out of Berea. With change comes uncertainty and I believe that's what you're trying to express. I've been attacked for voicing these opinions, but I still believe the stats can't be ignored as the Browns head into the 2023 season.

Since 2019 (the last four seasons), a top 5 QB as determined by yardage (current ranking system), has produced over 4500 yards passing in a season. Watson has shown in the past that he has exhibited that skill set leading the NFL in passing in 2020 with 4823 yards. If Watson is to return to that type of form, the offensive scheme the Browns have been running will have to change. IMHO, you don't go out a sign a player to a 230M guaranteed contract and not build your offense around that type of skill set.

For almost a year now, all I've heard on this forum is how the Browns have acquired a top 5 QB now. If Watson is indeed going to be a top 5 QB, then there is going to have to be some unpopular changes on the offense that some here refuse to recognize.

1. As you said: "It is part of the trade effect: We are going to change our offensive commitment to that of a passing attack Our usage of Chubb will go down so I say if that is the case (not my choice) TRADE CHUBB."

2. Wills LT, this is also a part of the trade effect. If the Browns are going to a passing offense, you can't have the most important position on the team outside of Watson being ranked 60th in PFF for all tackles but even more importantly a 31st ranking out of all LT's that played enough snaps. With 230M invested in your QB, putting him behind the 31st ranked LT is a plan for disaster. After three years, the improvement at the position just isn't there.

3. WR upgrades should be without question. If you're going to pass for 4,500 yards or more - the Browns need more and better weapons.

4. Finally, a real OC. Stefanski is here to stay it appears, but something has to change from his documented past if the Browns 230M QB is going to be an elite top 5 player. 3 years in Cleveland and 1 year as OC in MIN, Stefanski hasn't had a team throw for more than 3,610 yards in any season since he's had control of an offense. In Cleveland it hasn't been above 3,540. Even if you look at Minnesota, Cousins threw for 4,298 in 2018, 3,603 with Stefanski in 2019, 4,265 in 2020, 4,221 in 2021, and 4,547 in 2022. If Watson is going to be the top 5 elite QB the Browns are paying for, then the HC has to change his offense to incorporate over 1,000 yards in additional pass offense that his history has shown he will not do. Let me be perfectly clear, I'm not saying Stefanski cannot do it, what I am saying is his historical past says he won't.

IMHO, there's a lot of major question marks for this team on both sides of the ball entering 2023. The defense is certainly going to be a huge question mark this off season, the offense has just as many holes that I think many are ignoring. I'd love to see your take on this off season coming up.

Just my opinion - I don't know that much is going to change on offense. On D it's a different matter and it needs to change and will change with a new DC. But most of the overhaul will happen on the D I believe. Limited draft resources, Cap is obviously impacted by some big contracts to star players like DW, MG, Ward etc. Generally on offense I think:

- I think Nick will average 20-24 touches a game which is about right if we want to look after him long term. Gives him enough touches to make an impact every game. I still see him out for 3rd downs - KS and Berry, Depo think that's a winning formula and I don't see them changing.
- I think KS will continue to be the OC and will continue to fall into bad habits when games are tight or being lost: lack of half time adjustments and getting pass happy. Being too cute on 4th downs. Going for it on 4th down at one of the highest rates in the NFL while being mid pack for successful conversions.
- The Schwartz experiment needs to be over - lots of speed but "not a real football player".
- We do need a burner to stretch the field and keep safeties honest - that might be the only 'starting' addition at skill a position we make (for 3 WR sets) and though past experience we might take a RB project in the mid-later rounds . We'll add some OL depth.
- I honestly have no clue how Watson will play. As Jim Donovan said, and others, Watson had one good half in 6 games. While he was knocking the rust off - there was a lack of consistent progress which is worrying. As a few posters indicated - DW had a full preseason with the Browns, he played 6 games with the Browns. Being so far away from his peak performance by the end of the year compared to what we saw in HOU, after that much prep and game time, is at bare minimum a bit concerning. The good news is he's certainly not going to be worse than previous QB's we've had - the bad news is that "good" QB play is not what you made that trade for or signed that contract for. Just look at what some young QB's ave achieved in the NFL this year for comparison - no better comp than Purdy.

I guess in summary -there are two scenarios I see: Much improved team play all round, better coaching, better D and playoffs ... and Stefanski venerated. Or we continue to muddle through with more of the same that we've seen the last 2 years and even with good QB play from Watson, excuses and deflection but ultimately a neww HC next year.

With better QB play we will have the ball longer on O IMO. Therefore, we will have more O plays which should allow a good balance between runs and passes. That should make everyone happy. JMO

I don't understand why we think that a very good QB cannot learn a different system. So, Watson is better in the shotgun. I think there will be plays he will be in the shotgun in this offense. 3rd and long's, 2-minute warnings, etc.... I don't see why lining up under center will be that much of a problem. Watson is an elite level athlete and once he has a better grasp of the offense and better timing with his receivers, he won't have an issue in the play action.

Chubb is better suited as a down the hill runner, but he also gained some yardage running around the ends out of the shotgun some this year. He two is a great athlete that can adapt.

While we build the offense around a franchise QB I don't understand why we want to change everything. This offense is easy enough to operate a mediocre QB in Baker got the team to the playoffs. When he made the correct reads and took what the defense gave him and spread the ball around. Baker's problem is he thought he was Brett Farve and wanted to be a gun slinger throwing the ball down the field and forcing it in coverage. Watson can do that and make the down the field connections out of this offense that Baker could not make. I don't believe that Watson has to be in the shotgun every down to be successful. And I don't believe that he and Chubb cannot coexist.

Chubb and Garrett are great players they can play in any scheme it is playing in a scheme that does not utilize their skill set to nth degree. Which will make either player not producing the way they would in a run based program or a 4-3 defense.Who would fit (RB). Hunt has lost a step I think but he is said to fit with Watson. I would say two coming out in the draft.
1. Devon Achane, I doubt he would be there in the 2nd when we pick.
2. Would be Deuce Vaughn, I love this kid he is a hard runner and a scat back that can run good routes and stretch the field making space for all..

Again I think Chubb is a great athlete and can make himself into a pass catcher its just that isn't his best suit I think Watson should do a lot less running around and would work better with a running attack and let him blow teams away with play action. If they play man and nobody is open let him take off when the D has their back turned. What I did not like was Watson just taking off after a quick one two boom off and all wowing at him making something out of nothing...no he made the nothing and I don't like a QB to save his completion % BY TAKING the sack and not throwing the ball away.

Garrett "can" play in a 3-4 he just would be in an element that would not have him comfortable and effective. Fish out of water so to say. That would be like letting Reggie White play in a 3-4 and not in a 4-3. We got one of the best 4-3 DEs and then we will make him into a LB.. I'm sure he can make the most out of it....but I will guarantee you after a season he will be demanding to be traded.
jmho

And who is it you're going to blame for bringing up Baker this time? Who is it you're going to accuse of not being able to get Baker out their brain this time? Everyone knows who that really is. It's you.

One would think that if watson is the great QB they think he'll be is that it should be no problem having a top 3 producing RB in the same system. I guess some have decided that it's no longer an advantage to be a duel threat O that can both run and pass.

I agree on Garrett. That said, i don't think we switch to a 3-4, so no worries.

I might disagree with Chubb, but agree on Achane. Achane might be there given backs seem to fall, but I doubt we would take him.

As for watson running, i think that is a part of what is being coached, and I can argee with that. If the 1st look isn't open and there is a clear running path for Watson...take the easy 1st down.

If the first look isn't open, go through your progressions. I'm not against a QB running the ball, but making that a part of the game plan often times has its consequences. And those consequences often times turn out not be be good. We're witnessing that in Baltimore.

I am not blaming anyone. However, this was in the very first post on this thread:


Baker has been discussed repeatedly in this thread, but I get it...........it's cool if one says positive things about Baker, but don't say anything that offends the Almighty Pit. You haven't aged well. You are constantly irritable, miserable, and attacking others who don't share your opinions.

Watson will be able to play in any offense. Furthermore, guys who really know the game like Cossell, Burns, etc all talk about how quarterback friendly our offense is. Our offense will naturally evolve due to the special talents of our franchise qb in ways our previous qbs never could. Good times are ahead.

So you're basing a comment you made on page 12 of this thread due to a comment made on page 1 as your excuse for making it? That's a reach of epic proportions. Yeah, we get it.

No, what I'm doing Vers is pointing out the hypocrisy you use on a regular basis. And you forget, I've met you. I mean if you wish to get into the topic of who hasn't aged well. I'm not the control freak on this board who tells people what they're allowed to post in threads. Who blames people of high jacking threads because I don't like their posts. I mean if you want to talk about getting irritable, miserable and attacking others who do not share in your opinions. Would you like a full length mirror for your birthday!

I did not say a freaking word to you. I posted my thoughts on the situation w/out attacking a soul. You quoted me and once again called me out. Baker's name has been all over this thread. You ignore that, get on my case when I was clearly showing support for Watson and the team's chances moving forward, and then have the nerve to say I attack others who don't share my opinions.

I could care less what your opinions are. Voice them, but you don't get to tell me what to post. Btw---you sure as hell didn't attack me when we met. Pffttttt...

Yet here you are.


Where did I tell you what to or what not to post?


Why would I? I had no desire to take advantage of the situation.

So you are saying he was right and wasn't the one that introduced Baker into this thread but it doesn't matter someone else did because it was too early in the thread for your convenience?

And I bet he is the hypocrite too...

Considering he was 40piints below excellent QB that says it all
Did he even measure up to kizers first year

I hope this 'dream' of what you think we got in Watson materializes soon. I'm tired of hearing how good he is and would like to see it myself. We would have been better off with Mayfield under center this year, regardless of what he did when his life got turned upside down during the diva off-season. And the only elite thing we got from DW this year was the price of his contract, the stench of his off-field mess, and excuses for his play. Those were elite. You will never convince me that we could not have won with Baker. He's a damn good QB.

I am not trying to convince you of anything. Get lost.

Unfortunately, better QB play will not net the Browns more plays based on the stats. The top 5 passing teams (top 5 elite QB's) averaged 1074 total plays in 2022. The Browns had 1072 total plays in 2022. That's only 2 total plays difference for the whole season than the teams with the top rated elite QB's in the entire NFL in 2022. Statistically speaking, better QB play will not net the Browns more plays on offense.

Just another quick note, of the top 10 teams in total passing yards for the season, only 1 of those top 10 teams did not make the playoffs and it took until week 18 to eliminate them - the Detroit Lions.

I think in order to justify the trade for DW, the Browns have to be
In the AFC Championship Game every year.
Cause if you can't advance that far then your franchise
Is no better off then when Mayfield was the QB.

I don't disagree in general - although 'Every Year' might be somewhat extreme. Injuries, schedules, matchups all play a part. Assuming the Bengals remain a dominant force in the AFCN, beating them 2 out of 3 times every single year would be tough. I guess my expectation is a Super Bowl appearance at least once in the next 3 years and say 'play offs' the other 2 years, rather than say Championship Game each of the 3 years. But either bar you use - you are correct, without going much deeper into the playoffs the trade becomes a failure imo.

There is going to be so much pressure on Berry , Stefanski, and Watson
To get this turned around as in NOW.
I don't think any of the 3 have ever had this much pressure and urgency
Placed them at anytime previous to their roles with the Browns now.
All this talk about what DC is coming to Cleveland, I think this
Team will go only as far as the offense takes it. The Browns don't
Need a elite defense to reach the SB.
It's needs a elite / top 7 offense. And I'm not so sure that KS
Can produce and Scheme up a Top 7 offense.

The fair expectations would be challenging for AFC North each year, being a perennial playoff team, and knocking on the door to a Super Bowl each year. I think the run the team made between 1985 and 1989. That philosophy says knock on the door enough times and you'll eventually kick down that door.

The late 80's teams would have done that had Modell stayed patient and not demanded Byner to be traded or if he would not have fired Marty. The knocking on the door would have continued and I firmly believe they would have eventually knocked that door down.

Well, the Browns have supposedly gone out and traded for that top 5 elite QB that should produce the type of offense you referenced. The issue that will continue to be a question mark all the way until next September is if the Browns have the capability to over hall their offensive scheme.

As I stated in a previous post, out of the top 10 teams in passing in 2022, 9 of those were in the playoffs and the only miss was eliminated in week-18. The difference wasn't in the number of offensive plays run either because the Browns ran 1072 in 2022 compared to the top 5 passing team's average of 1074. The issue is the number of plays passing the ball compared to running the ball.

The Browns passed the ball 540 times for 3,444 yards in 2022. The top 5 elite QB'd teams passed the ball an average of 673.8 plays for an average of 4,645.4 yards in 2022. The math says the Browns threw the ball 133.8 times less for 1,201.4 yards fewer than the top 5 elite passing teams.

Of the top 5 rushing teams in attempts (the Browns were 5th), only the Eagles made the playoffs. Likewise, of the top 5 elite rushers in attempts in 2022 (Chubb was 3rd), only Barkley from the NYG made the playoffs. The Browns had 532 rushing plays for 2,490 yards in 2022. The top 5 elite passing teams averaged 400.2 rushing attempts for an average of 1,629.8 yards. Again, the math says the Browns ran the ball 131.8 times more and for 860.2 yards more than the top 5 elite passing teams.

Now some have said that a more balanced offensive scheme is the ticket to success in the NFL. Some have even complained very often about Stefanski getting pass happy. Even though the trail to the playoffs confirmed by the stats proves otherwise, each is entitled to their own opinion. However, if you're going to trade for an elite top 5 QB and pay him a 230M guaranteed contract, why would you set your offense up to where the team produces stats comparable to the 22nd rated passing offense in yardage?

Remember, as stated above, the number of plays between the top 5 elite passing offenses and the Browns is only 2 plays. The math says that there aren't extra plays on the horizon. What the numbers do say is there has to be a different distribution, especially if you're going to get the return on your investment for a top 5 elite QB you acquired.

Like I stated, and they are the facts, 9 out of the top 10 teams in passing yardage made the playoffs in 2022. For the Browns to become a top 5 passing team with their 230M top 5 elite QB, the Browns will need to pass the ball approximately an additional 134 times and run the ball 132 times less than in 2022. That's 24.44% less running plays in 2023 than 2022. The elephant in the room is can Stefanski scheme his offense for almost 25% less running plays when he has a history of scheming lower pass totals?

I don't pretend to have that answer nor do I question the vast array of opinions on the forum. What I will say though, IMHO, paying a QB top 5 elite money on the only fully guaranteed contract in the history of the NFL could clearly be classified "as the worst trade ever" if you're not getting top 5 elite QB play and production from the player. Not being in the top 5 elite level in passing yardage would not be getting your return on investment.

The answer to many of those is Jacoby Brissett was the starting QB for 11 games. It amazes me how people forget this on a myriad of topics re: the Browns.

Yep, 11 pages later, out of nowhere he makes a post about Baker unprovoked. Had you have been born with eyes you could see.

First thing that popped into my mind.

I nearly pointed this out - 11 pages and 3 weeks .... there was no relevancy of BM in this thread any longer as a topic to "reply" to ... anyone is free to bring up and talk about any topic/player/coach they like, but let's not pretend the player was part of this thread at the point he was re-introduced. Not a big deal - but here we are.

And as a result, the Browns had a top 10 offense. Brissett far exceeded the expectations and produced an offense that was ranked top 10. So I have no idea what point him being the starter is supposed to make in hind sight. With a top 10 offense the Browns amassed a record of 4-7.

Not only that but he judged Baker in a year where he was injured and unable to carry the team on his back. The year before is something he won't even bring up.

Not to be mean, but what the hell does that have to do with anything? The 49ers used 3 different QB's this season and passed for over 400 more yards than the Browns. Miami used 3 different QB's this season and passed for 1,067 yards more than the Browns. IMHO, that has been and continues to be the issue with the Cleveland Browns, there's always an excuse - every year, every decade, and every game. In Stefanski's 4 years (1 OC and 3 HC), he has never had a team pass for more than 3,540 yards in a season - NEVER. The offense hasn't been set up to have an elite passing team and I think it's highly questionable that it will be set up for that next year either.

After the Browns made the trade for Watson last year, the Browns had no idea how long Watson would be suspended or if he even would be suspended. Truthfully, do you believe the Browns made a concerted effort through trades, FA, and the draft in 2022 to build an elite passing offense for their newly acquired top 5 elite QB? So, after wasting that opportunity in year one of your top 5 elite QB's 230M guaranteed contract, are you 100% confident that the Browns will make the necessary moves to ensure that they become an elite top 5 passing team led by a top 5 elite QB and be in the playoffs as all top 5 teams did this year? If not, then the Browns are not using their top 5 elite QB and losing their return on investment making this "the worst trade ever."

My post was about Watson and the team's future. Pit was starting a fight and of course, you fell for it.

I'm not going to get into all of that. You see I'm not against them moving on from Baker. The way they went about it I thought was a little shady, but that's the way business goes. Baker had some skills that he was strong at. I think Stefnaski relied heavily on that alone in his first season here and the results were great. But the problem with Baker for me is you can't win the grand prize with a one trick pony.

The things Baker was actually good at were very limited. And as we saw, you can squeak into the playoffs that way. At least one time. But soon defenses will figure out just how limited your O is with a one trick pony. Stefnaski can't open up his playbook and run his entire system, not even close to that with a one trick pony. You see, the expectations for a young QB is that as time goes on he will make progress. He will grow and expand as a QB. His skill set and abilities will expand. I never saw that in Baker.

Where the problem is IMO is people trying to make him out as a villain or a hero. People who at one time claimed moxie and self confidence was a great thing now use that as a weapon to attack him. His supporters pretending or acting like Baker was some well rounded QB when he clearly wasn't. As is usually the case the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Yep, when this is your opening salvo it's quite clear what it was about. None of this was necessary to make the point you claim your emphasis was on. But you made sure to include it. That's you're right but don't expect anyone to believe you when you lie about it.

You don't have the authority to dictate on what was necessary or not. You are just a miserable old man looking to fight.

Awe, you stole someone elses line. How original you are. I know what wasn't necessary. That wasn't necessary and you know it. And as I said before, it's your right to toss Baker into the mix when claiming it's only to discuss watson. That doesn't make me miserable. It means you attack anyone that questions you. Just so we're clear, nobody has to bring up Baker to show watson gives the Browns a better chance to win in the AFC North. You chose even though you didn't need to. At least man up and own it.

What's really sad in all of this is that you think that my posting the way I do on this board makes me miserable. That's hilarious. This is just a football message board. It isn't life. Lighten up Francis. I mean if what you post or what other people post determines whether your life is miserable it's you that has a problem. This is a pastime for me. It's not high on my priority list.

And allow me to show just how fragile people such as yourself and Peen are. Yesterday I pointed out that an 8-9 season and a 7-10 season were mediocre. I pointed out that each season since Stanfsnski got here his W/L record had gotten worse. Both totally accurate and true statements. You and Peen lost your ever loving minds over it. Peen called me a troll for posting it and you jumped on the bandwagon as if I actually give a damn. What you may wish to consider moving forward it that your incessant outrage acts to fuel me more than dissuade me. But you do you.

As I said then and I'll say now, would you like a mirror for your birthday?

Because you have an unused one to give away?

Yeah, that's it. You're getting very weak. did Vers hire you attorney Frank?

No, I don't gang up w/others to pick on another poster.

Neither has anyone else on this board.

You see, the difference is I don't value my self importance high enough to concoct a conspiracy theory that some gang is working together and is out to get me. That sounds like some very narcissistic behavior.