DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Defense

Another area of concern on the defense is the regression in the sack totals. The Browns are currently ranked 26th in sacks through 16 weeks (3rd in the division) compared to being ranked 9th overall in 2021 (2nd in the division). Rankings from "statmuse."

DE Sack Totals
2022 Garrett - 15_________2021 - 16
2022 Clowney - 2_________2021 - 9
2022 Thomas - 1_________ 2021 - NA
2022 Winovich - 1________ 2021 - NA
2022 Wright - 0__________ 2021 - NA
2022 Rochell - 0__________2021 - NAS
______________ J. Jackson 2021 - 1.5
________________ Weaver 2021 - 0
2022 Sub Total - 19_______2021 Sub Total - 26.5

DT Sack Totals
2022 Bryan - 3___________2021 - NA
2022 Elliott - 2___________2021 - 0.5
2022 Winfrey - 0.5________2021 - NA
2022 Togiai - 0.5_________ 2021 - 0.5
2022 Stille - 0___________ 2021 - NA
2022 Perry - 0___________ 2021 - NA
_______________McDowell 2021 - 3
___________________ Day 2021 - 1
______________M. Jackson 2021 - 0.5
_________________Billings 2021 - 0
________________Bronson 2021 - 0
2022 Sub Total - 6_________2021 Sub Total - 5.5

2022 LB Sacks - All - 5.5___2021 LB Sacks - All - 6

2022 CB Sacks - ALL - 1.5__2021 CB Sacks - All - 2.5

2022 Safety Sacks - All - 1_ 2021 Safety Sacks - All - 2.5

2022 Total Sacks - 33_____ 2021 Total Sacks - 43


The Browns are looking at a possible double digit sack total difference year-to-year unless Tomlin allows a PS OT to go against Garrett the whole game like Stefanski did last year.

Gloating over decreased production????

Nope, questioning the one-way direction the entire team has been going the last 2-years with no accountability for the person who's supposed to be the leader of the team - Stefanski. Three years with a talent laden roster considered a Super Bowl contender yet never finishing higher than 3rd place in the division. That's not gloating, that's a pissed off fan wandering what the hell the Browns are going to do to right a freaking sinking ship.

Just curious. Should that also include Myles and other D players who spoke up earlier in the season? The claim that the D was confused and didn't know what their assignments were? Or is this a selective situation?

J/C

This may have been mentioned earlier in the thread, but the fact that Clowney was able to dictate that he only play on 3rd down in the previous game is just as bad an indictment on the coaching as anything. When he said that, he should have been told he was now covering kickoffs. If he balked at that, I'd send him to the locker room and out the damn door right then and there. And before anyone wants to play the, "Did you say that when game...?" I don't think any player should be speaking out publicly in a negative way about the team unless it's the "We need to do better" type of speaking. Now I realize that even in a great team structure (Steelers, Pats, etc.) a player can step out of line/speak out to the press, and it doesn't mean it's a reflection on the culture/coaching, but here it seems to have happened a bit too frequently.

I don't really think your post is out of line at all according to my line of thinking. I think the discrepancy lies with one is being so harshly punished by the team and the others not even being so much as reprimanded in public for it. Maybe the indiscretions weren't as grievous by the other players but even those promoting this punishment towards Clowney have openly admitted that those other players made comments they shouldn't have made. And all we heard from the coaching staff when they made those comments were crickets.

I don't have a problem with how they handled this situation with Clowney. I have an issue with the total lack if consistency on any level.

I agree that inconsistency (from the coaches/team) is what looks worse than any single, individual issue. I get that certain players have earned more leeway on some situations, but there should be little to no gray area in these cases. The term "conduct detrimental to the team" comes to mind, and I feel it should be applied consistently for the sake of team first, self second and a strong culture.

Muffin said today in a presser that Clowney said he was injured but could play on third downs

JC said he's playing now because he loves the game but his attitude, production and effort don't reflect that. With MG playing opposite of him his production should have been much higher.

I would not have had any issues with JJ III being benched for a game. I also think Garrett should have been benched for a game for the car wreck incident.

In your world, I suppose a traffic ticket deserves the same penalty as armed robbery. Once again, another example of you trashing the Browns.

More coaching genius, Vers? Another fn ridiculous Coaching and FO call. Just like punishing Myles. These guys are speaking up because things are not right in Berea. But hey, hate away. You are good at that.

If he refused to play, that's on him, and he gets what he gets. But I won't condemn the guy for speaking out.

Milk, that's the problem though - nothing was done. Now, management has decided to take action against a player that most likely won't be here next year anyway. What's the point? I managed people for almost 45-years, and I can tell you that the quickest way to lose your team is to be inconsistent and/or lie. The other employees or in this case players are always watching, and they are like elephants - they never forget. I said it last year that I believed Stefanski had lost the locker room and this year's events clearly proves that he has lost the locker room, again. This little event with Clowney, though appropriate, will have all the players asking themselves why it took until week 18 for this HC to take any action. For those who don't believe my opinion, stay tuned because it's going to get much worse. I've had to go into places to clean up crap just like this and it's no picnic because they lose faith in the entire management team. It's coming to Cleveland and faster than most can imagine. The culture is gone once you get labeled inconsistent and/or lie, you have no option then but to move on because you'll never get that place or in this case locker room back.

Have you read all of what he said?

So far, I just see him calling out the staff for setting Myles up to win at his expense. And tbh I saw that. Last year it seemed like teams focused on Myles, and Clowney was a force. This year, not so much. And like everything else that has gone wrong, it's coaching and FO ineptness getting in the way.

You guys can make all the excuses you want to make, and hit all the scapegoats you want to hit. But until we fix the top of this franchise, the bottom will remain dismal. But browns fans tend to throw players under the bus for almost anything to justify losing. And the crappy job the coaches did will get swept under the rug for another year.

That is something he never bothered to tell the coaching staff and Myles. The way he went on about Myles makes him look like a petulant child who is jealous of his teammate. The reason Myles gets moved around is because he gets double teamed more than anyone at the edge. They move Myles around so the defense is less predictable and they have more opportunities for sacks. Yes it helps Myles but that is a byproduct of the reason.

The it telling Myles and coaching Staff came from Myles. He said that he wishes that Clowney would have told them

Man, you can go about your endless diatribe about how the Browns are rotting from the inside out. That's your prerogative. But you're twisting this event inside-out.

The quickest way to lose your team is to let this go unchecked. "What's the point?" That's absurd. Clowney made comments that would have him sent home from every org in the NFL. You're saying it would be better if Stefanski did nothing. Wow.

No, keep your agenda out of the conversation. I am saying that Stefanski has been sitting on the sidelines allowing this kind of crap to go on all season long. Now at season's end he decides to make an appropriate decision on Clowney which he should have been doing since October. That is why I said, what's the point. What, does suspending Clowney suddenly give him credit for holding people accountable after he's been missing in action the whole damn season? I'm not saying Clowney shouldn't be addressed - I'm asking where the hell has the leadership and accountability been all season?

I have the agenda.

I'm speaking specifically about the JD situation. You're following your agenda of trying to prove Stefanski is such a terrible coach -- ironically enough, by using an example where he shows strong leadership.

You're trying to use it as some litmus test that proves Stefanski is a weak leader by citing some lack of response with previous incidences. So, even though you weren't privy to any of the conversations with players after they "spoke out" in the media, we should assume Stefanski did nothing -- because you said so.

Since you're such a leader of men, how would you have handled the earlier episodes? Sent them home? Outted them in the media? I'm real interested in your answer, since you've boasted 45 years of "team building".

He's right. You do have an agenda. Your agenda is trying to look at the situation fairly, rationally, and w/out bias, while searching for the truth. Shame on you.

Proper team building comes from good leadership and laying out clear expectations. Once those expectations are delivered, it becomes a responsibility to hold your people accountable to those expectations. Consistency as to how you address those situations develops the culture of the team and reenforces your leadership. Doing those things consistently without waiver builds trust with your people because they know there will always be equal treatment and fairness to all concerned. Once you have the trust of your people and they believe in the culture and leadership, they will walk through walls for you.

Inconsistency (from the coaches/team) is what looks worse than any single, individual issue. One of two things are happening on the Browns - either the level of expectation has never explained, or the leadership is nonexistent due to the demonstrated inconsistencies.

IMHO, whether Stefanski talked to Johnson, Delpit, Garrett or the anonymous player or not, the penalty was not consistent for comments and or social media posts that were detrimental to the team that each one of them did. If the Stefanski penalty is a 1 game suspension, as it appears that was levied against Clowney, the accountable leader would have delivered the exact same punishment to the other players for the same offense, CONSISTENCY! Inconsistent application of the rules is not strong leadership in any way, shape, or form.

If this suspension was for the "only playing on 3rd down due to injury," I ask the same question - what was the expectations and the consistency with dealing with the issue? If Clowney was injured, why wasn't he in the blue tent? If he wasn't injured but refused to play except on 3rd down, where was Stefanski while this was allowed to happen? Where's the leadership and what message did he send to the other players by allowing Clowney to pull that crap and keep playing?

I don't have to have an agenda to prove Stefanski is a terrible coach, he's doing it all by himself and his failure in the AFC North proves that along with his locker room issues. I just post about his continued failures.

jc -

All of the following are true.

1. Myles did not deserve to be inactive for what he said.

2. Delpit and JJ3 did not deserve to be inactive for they said.

3. Clowney deserved to be inactive for what he said.

4. Stefanski is a below average coach and leader surrounded by other below average coaches, players, and others throughout the organization. His actions toward Clowney, whether you agree with them or not, do not change this.

5. The Browns are a dysfunctional mess. See #4.

Thanks for the confirmation.

j/c:

Just wondering if people on this board watch other games? Is Aaron Rodgers held to the same standards as the rest of his teammates? Russell Wilson has his own office instead of a locker? Is that consistent treatment? Stephon Diggs had a meltdown on the sidelines a few weeks back. Was he sent to the locker room, benched, or fined? Allen and Payne got into a fistfight last year. Is that the result of great leadership? Antonio Brown made some sort of Social Media video while Tomlin was telling the team to not share team things on social media. Is Tomlin not a leader? The same A. Brown removed his uniform during a game and went off the field doing jumping jacks or something similar. Is Bruce Arians a terrible leader?

I could go on and on and on and I bet that those w/an open mind can recall hundreds and hundreds of times when good and great coaches were unable to control their players. It's just that some want to trash our current coaches while turning a blind eye to what are common occurrences around the rest of the league. I think most people who read the board enough know the reason for the motivation that drives most of the complaints.

You ask very valid questions but in the end our concerns is about the Browns leadership and results.

Anthony Brown is a special story. I don’t know if it’s mental illness, drugs or just casual craziness behind his meltdown. Even if Tom gave him his mentorship it didn’t help.
Stefon Diggs wins games on regular basis. That helps when you go bananas and your coaches shake their heads.
Rodgers is just goofy and too smart for his own good. As soon as his contract is up he’s gone.
Russ Wilson must start to win games on a regular basis otherwise someone will close his private office. Nobody is impressed.

It would be nice if we could discuss the defense on a thread entitled Defense and perhaps talk about leadership on the Stefanski thread, the Berry thread, etc.

You may not think Stefanski is a leader, but that doesn't mean we all have to agree. I disagreed w/your leadership take on the Stefanski thread, but I did not say a word because we are all entitled to our opinions and that was the proper place to discuss him.

Jimmy Johnson used to say that he didn't treat his players all the same. If Troy Aikman showed up 5 minutes late for a meeting he would be like "Troy c'mon buddy, let's try to get here on time. be a leader and show those other guts how it's supposed to be done" but if the 52nd player on the roster showed up 5 minutes late, "sorry buddy, you're cut, pack up your locker."

You have missed the whole point of the discussion. No one has said anything about a leader being able to stop the acts of discontent. Just because a player acts up isn't a reflection of the leadership, but it becomes an issue when you don't react.

Let's take Antonio Brown as an example you want to use. Brown removed his uniform, acted like a jerk, and made a fool of himself on the field. Arians couldn't stop what Brown did but as soon as the game was over, he released Brown from the Buccaneers. His conduct was detrimental to the team and immediate action was taken. Bruce Arians was blunt when the Buccaneers signed Antonio Brown that he wouldn’t get the benefit of the doubt if he caused any drama in Tampa Bay. “He screws up one time, he’s gone,” Arians said in October of 2020.
Arians set the expectations and followed through in a consistent manner. In 2018, the Steelers benched Brown for his antics and traded Brown for his drunk driving conviction.

Russel Wilson having his own office has nothing to do with this conversation. However, the effects it had on the team has become evident and the new HC didn't even last a season. Call it what you want, but the unequal treatment has caused serious issues in Denver, and I want to thank you for providing proof of my point. Where is the leadership and consistency in how you treat your people?

The Stefon Diggs issue was actually a brilliant display of leadership and how a HC should handle a game time situation - unlike what Stefanski did with Clowney only playing on 3rd down and doing nothing.

Sean McDermott and Stefon Diggs had a surprising exchange during the Buffalo Bills’ win over the Cleveland Browns.
Diggs was caught by cameras looking a bit emotional. The receiver and coach then had an embrace in the first half of the 31-23 win. What made it curious was the time of the contest it happened.
Up until that point, Diggs had not been targeted in the passing game by quarterback Josh Allen. It would appear that’s why he was upset.
Both McDermott and Diggs publicly downplayed what happened.
“I’m a very charismatic, high-energy guy. He knows that sometimes I just need to take a breath,” Diggs said via video conference. “I always expect excellence from myself. And I always want to be dominant. And I feel like if I’m not being dominant, I’m not doing my job at times. He knows I’m a competitor, and he always kind of brings it full circle.”
The coach explained how he was just trying to do his job. Help where he can.
“I just wanted to offer a couple words of encouragement and settle everyone down,” McDermott said via video conference. “I thought Stef did a great job of taking that message and running with it and putting his own signature on it.”
After Diggs settled in, his next catch was a touchdown.
Overall, Diggs only had four receptions against the Browns, much below his usual lofty standards.
Still, Diggs managed to leave his stamp on the game.
Plus, it’s not unheard of for a No. 1 receiver to have a couple of games a season where they aren’t leading the way. That’s why everyone gets paid, after all.

Let me explain it to you again. Leadership is not stopping incidents from happening. Great leadership occurs as to how you handle those situations. You do not build trust within your team by not acting. In fact, it's just the opposite, you lose the trust of your team when you treat others differently. If you set the expectations, then you are accountable for enforcing those expectations in a consistent manner. When you don't, you lose control and the trust of your team. When players speak out about those inconsistencies you have a real problem. It's happening in Denver and it's happening in Cleveland too. You just don't want to see it.

Yeah, it kinda sucks that it is an actual thing in sports. All the way down to even Middle School sports. Hell, I think it's a huge reason why so many professional players feel so entitled when they come into the league. They've been coddled since very early on in their life. I remember one of our 8th grade coaches relaying a story about after a game w/the Massillon Tigers middle school game, one of their coaches came onto our bus and tried to recruit one of our players to transfer to Massillon. It got to the point where it got physical when our coach got him off the bus. High school teams provide jobs to star player's parents and even housing. College alumni come in and pay kids all kinds of money to go to their college. The student athletes automatically pass classes that they don't even attend. It goes on and on and on.....There are innate reasons why we get the Clowney's of the world. We create them ourselves.

Simple question. Who will replace Clown(ey) ?

If Clowney is inactive, Wright and Winovich will replace him. Thomas is out w/an injury.

I don't know the answer if you are talking about next year. However, I don't think there is was any way we were bringing Clowney back even before yesterday's diatribe.

Of course that's not what I said. Even a traffic ticket has a penalty. Not the same penalty, but a penalty. I suppose in your world anything less than a bank robbery deserves to not have a penalty.

Everyone can see who your hatred is centered around. That would be anyone who disagrees with you. And Mayfield.

For everyone who is looking for the truth and not interested in fighting.......the other players were disciplined. In fact, Winfrey has received more consequences than others. I think most rational people can deduce on their own that Clowney's transgressions were far worse than anything the others said. Most understand the importance of the consequences matching-up w/the infraction.

Also, for the record.............I have been outspoken about players needing to keep their mouth shut about the inner workings of the team when it comes to addressing the media. I have always been against sharing one's dirty laundry w/the media and by association---the public.

And I said that all w/out insulting another poster.

Let's try to keep this in its context rather than diverting attention away from it. The topic is negative comments made to the media by players. The fact you wish to avoid that topic doesn't mean someone trying to get you to address the issue is attempting to fight. That's the same BS you use every time.

The point is, was and shall be that either the players shouldn't be speaking negatively to the media and punishment will be doled out to those who do, or certain players have been given a free pass when they do. Not every comment was as egregious but all fit the description quite well. So while the measure of how you punish those infractions may vary, there should be a level of punishment that fits each infraction of the same violation. That would at least show some level of consistency. But there isn't. And it seems as if some make excuses for that and try to deflect from it.

The fact of the matter is favoritism is being played according to who that player is. It's a pretty simple concept to grasp. The star of your defense isn't treated the same as the guy who will be gone from the team next week anyway. It's easy to make an example of a guy who would only be here for one more week anyway. Not so easy for the top paid player on the team signed to a contract of which will be keeping him here. It's not some special circumstance limited to Stafanksi. Coaches do it all the time. They find a player that it won't actually hurt their teams performance to make an example of. The sacrificial lamb so to speak. You act as though that doesn't happen or doesn't exist.

Now you wish to use the "yeah but" method by bringing in other infractions that have nothing to do with that. And maybe some will buy into what you're selling. Others will not.