DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Young US Men in Crisis

Not sure how I feel about this. What the hell is the solution to isolation?

There are more females than makes in the US.

I'm sure sexual orientation may play a factor as well.

Granted, lgbtq +only represents less than 1% of the population.

They have been raised to be something other than boys.

It's no wonder we have a generation of young men who are twerps.

Instead of labeling an entire generation of young men as twerps? Maybe a more sensible outlook is needed.

After all one could easily say “It’s no wonder we have a generation of young men who are gun slinging racists.”

I found it quite humorous how super tried to associate sexual orientation with the issue then admitted it only impacted 1% of the population. Then after one of "those" admitting it was only 1% of the population Peen comes along and says....... "They have been raised to be something other than boys."

It seems as if they can't really make up their minds and when they do, reality isn't taken into account.

That 1% controls us all. In many ways.

Less than 1% and the Right is up in arms..

Yet as of March 7th there have been 104 mass shootings in America this year,, But hey, let's give everybody a gun no matter their age or mental state.

Not sure how guns got in to the mix by my comment?

I am not even sure what people are talking about when mentioning 1%?

I am not talking about sexual orientation. Just the entire way boys are drugged in school and not allowed to be boys anymore. We've made being a boy far different than what it has been forever. A great social experiement that has given us a bunch of punks.

That IMO is a big part of why these dweebs grab a gun and go shoot up a bunch of their classmates. I'd bet a good number of these guys have never climbed a tree or any of the other normal stuff boys do when growing up. They have been raised to be like girls. The problem is they aren't girls.

I listen to Smerconish a bunch. He is on in the morning on Sirius XM.

He dives into some of the under the radar type stuff. But he actually tries to figure out the cause as part of the discussion.

Some of the things are obvious. Young men are not going to college. 60 percent of college graduates are women. Men are not getting married until they are 30ish, women more often in their 20's.

We have created an overprotective society, instead of an interactive society. To me, home schooling is a terrible idea, yet it is on the rise.

Why is that? it is not only video games, social media (including dating "swipes"), the internet availability of sexual content and VR interactions, but the total number of real life human interactions are less in today's world.

I would not call them twerps or dweebs, but I think in order to have a well rounded life, you need interactions with others, and if you structure your life in a manner that limits your exposure, you don't know how to act around other people.

You may think that you are happy, but in reality, there is a void that cannot be substituted by a computer.

I think that socialization groups are more important today than ever. Band, sports, church, work, whatever form, it does not matter. What we have now are young adults that can isolate themselves from society, and that creates the problem.

The mind changes a lot from 14-21, isolation is not a good thing.

The long term consequences to this trend should be concerning.

A few thing I think are certain. There are many contributing factors, but at some level, most of the factors that I can see tie into technological changes, whether it is social media increase, birth control, video games, or automation.

There is also a problem with young men choosing not to work. Related? What do you all think?

I guess technically I was single most of my 20s... dated a girl in college and then through grad school and the years after I was single but dated... hung out with friends... didn't meet my wife until I was 28...

I think if young men are truly isolating themselves, that's not healthy... being single isn't necessarily bad if you're still being social..

I do think people are marrying later in life... and a lot of society is saying it's ok to just be whatever you want, so you have more young men who are not acting like traditional men... which isn't horrible, but just strange to me...

If I did not know better, peen would be the twerp or dweeb of this thread..

Let’s just resort to name calling when confronted with a real issue.

Again, being able to have a conversation without falling into the name calling trap is part of the problem.

Swipes left.

Your previous post was awesome and then you follow it up w/this? peen did not call any of you names. It was Perfect who called peen out and now you are. It's amazing how many of you gang up anyone who has an opposing view of your own.

FYI: The De-Masculinization of men is a real thing and it is a problem. Low testosterone levels cause a myriad of problems, as does a lack of physical activity. I could go on and provide articles on the subject, but my experience in this forum is that no one wants to listen to logic and reason while trying to find solutions to our problems, and instead, want to belittle anyone who does not think the way they do.

Whatever you want to call them, it wouldn't be "normal". So be it if you take offense with the terms I used.

Substitute any word you like and then you will understand the thrust of my post.

Yep, I did it, and will own it.

I was not offended per-se.. the comment was not directed at me.

However, it really just proves one of the other observations about life on the internet.

People, in general, are a lot braver and whole lot more snarky when hidden by the anonymity of a screen name.

So, skills of interacting with people are lost, as name calling is more acceptable, and then lost when someone interacts with others in real life.

Even this site, which is far more tame than most generic comment sections, has its fair share of bravado.

It's the new normal, (see peen's comment above).

And it is an underlying reason why political partisanship is has been on the rise.

People are human beings too.

Good stuff!

I think some of the comments are based on people's preconceived notions of "what it means to be a real man". Somehow it's an old school notion that unless you're some tough guy you're less than a man. But that's simply not true. Things such as compassion are a strengths, not a weakness. What I think brings this thought about is simply the fact that it's more accepted to be who you are in public. The same types of people they consider "less than manly" have been around forever. It's just that society was less accepting of them so they had to hide who they were. They had to put on a sense of false bravado to fit in.

As far as not being well rounded due to more home schooling and self isolation I agree that's a huge issue.

I did not call peen out.

I suggested that he could take a different outlook on the issue.

It’s called being civil.

Not that you’d know anything about that.

IMO, I feel there is several factors. As mentioned earlier, video games, social media, people always being on their phone and other isolationist type of activities. People don't talk with those around them like they used to. Growing up, we knew nearly everyone on our street. Now, I know the neighbors on either side of me and thats it. First apartment I got after college, neighbors knocked on my door and welcomed me. Haven't seen that happen in any other place I moved to. Houses feel like they have become fortresses. People come home, lock themselves inside. I've seen a lot of distrust of other people. Nextdoor is filled with people posting doorbell cam video of someone walking down the street, minding their own business, and saying they look suspicious, so keep an eye out.

Some people just don't want to deal with society. I know I'm more isolated these days because other people annoy me. If it looks like it's too peopley outside, I just stay home.

I've seen articles recently on how a small percentage of guys get most of the swipes on dating apps. That tells me girls set their standards and won't budge for anything. There's probably some on both sides that get tired of the dating games. The lies and people trying to be something their not. Maybe people have seen too many Hallmark movies.

Another couple of thoughts. Both relating to video games. In online games I've seen people talk about having anxiety when having to group with other players. If they are having anxiety in video games, then they are probably have anxiety in real situations as well.

Second, video games have gotten easier over the years. People can't handle losing so games have been dumbed down to make it harder to lose. If people can't beat a boss on their first try, they go to social media complaining the boss should be nerfed. I also feels this translates to real life. People can't handle being rejected in relationships, so they stop trying.

Nothing wrong with being sensitive and compassionate. I consider myself both.

The problem is as I said, we haven't been raising boys to be boys for a good while now. If boys don't sit still in school, they are put on drugs. We drug maleness out of them.

Some males don't do well in a school situation, so what do we do, we eliminate Voc-ed programs where they could excel. We make them sit still in school, drugged.

Boys are raised to be more like girls. I know it may have sounded dumb, but I am serious. Boys don't climb trees or dig underground forts anymore. Plan massive snowball fights with the kids over on the next block. Have neighborhood football and baseball teams to play kids in other neighborhoods. Have a few rock fights. They sit around and do nothing that makes them male. The play video games shooting up things.

The nimrods who come up with this stuff are convinced boys and girls are the same and should be treated the same and raised the same way. So now we end up with twerpy males who hit their mid 20's and the women don't like them anymore because in the end they still want a real man.

This stuff isn't hard. The social experiment of the last 30 years has failed big time.

This isn't some deal against women, nor saying we need men slapping women around or anything like that. Boys need to come home with holes in their jeans, scrapes and cuts, maybe even a broken bone or missing tooth. Do some stupid sheet ( my rock fight comment..lol). It isn't ideal, but it is necessary because boys do need to push boundaries. They don't sit still. It's just a part of the male make-up and just the way it has been since the beginning of time. But now, we make them sit still.

Now we are having conversations like this ? No wonder we are.

A story from maybe 20 years ago. Some kid was riding his bike down the hill in front of the house and he wiped out in to a tree across the street. His sister rode off fast screaming for mom. He left the bike and just started walking towards his home 7-8 doors down. He wasn't crying or anything, just walking. I went outside but he was well down the block, so I gathered up his bike to take it home.

He as maybe 8 or so, and wasn't crying until he got to his mom and maybe aunt when they started getting in a panic because he did have a pretty good cut on his head.

When I got there I could see things weren't good, mostly from mom, so I told the aunt or friend to calm mom down a bit. I looked at the boys head and saw he would need 3-4 stitches. They brought out something to compress the cut, and I asked the boy if this was going to be his first scar? He didn't say much, so I showed him 2-3 of my scars and told him all men have scars a gave him a high five since this was his first. I told him all men have a few scares. They all hurt, but all men have them. It is just a part of the deal of being a boy. Way to go kid! That's a good one!

Mom and the aunt were both appreciative I was able to level things down a bit. Just a guy thing.

So Pit. I have known you in some fashion for what, 25 years? I may not like your political views or you mine, but I don't think you are a twerp or dweeb. I'll bet you have your fair share of scars, so you know exactly what the hell I am talking about.

Good post. The left will interpret your post to you being a Trumpian, homophobic, gun-toting, racist, wife-beater!

Suddenly you are an expert on the left? And you come in here pointing fingers. Smh.

I don't necessarily agree with your words or thoughts as stated, but I get the gist of what you mean and somewhat agree. When I was a kid in the 70s, you could knock the snot out of another kid and not end up in jail. And we jumped ramps with bikes and no helmets or pads, got ran out of the house to play, and didn't come home until the street lights came on. We lived the adventures of life in REAL LIFE. And it was great... but it was also horrible.

I was 8 when I started smoking. Almost every male in my life smoked; everyone smoked everywhere, even in doctor's offices, courthouses, small businesses, restaurants, and bars... It was everywhere. I bought cigarettes in the store with my lunch money every week from about 12 on. I smoked weed and drank alcohol for the first time about then too. At 15, I was going to bars and getting served top shelf. That's where I learned to fight the hard way. My Navy recruiter took my 17-year-old high school senior self to a VFW every night for a week to play pool and hang out... I turned 18 a month later and signed up without my parent's consent.

And we played video games too, unlike today, but we had games in the 80s. And just like every generation before us, we disappointed the older generation until the next generation surpassed us in the complaint dept.

I turned out to be more like your definition of a man, but I don't glorify it the same way. A lot of the crap we did doesn't fly anymore. We were horrible to women. Date rape was very real and common. We drove gays underground with our lack of understanding or acceptance. We were racist to the core and completely unaware that it was embedded in our society. I've had to spend a great deal of time accepting and improving myself in that area during my life. And I grew up with many black friends, one who just passed away was probably my first real friend and next-door neighbor. We were friends our entire lives, but one of the first things I ever did was ask him to feel his hair. We used to compare tans, he was light-skinned, and my summer tan would make me darker. Our parents encouraged us to be friends, even as awkward as it all was for them when we unknowingly said crap that kids would say back then or things I heard adults say. And even as a young adult, my give-a-crap about political correctness was about as well honed as yours display here. And now we're older, so we get some leeway for being a little raw in our opinions (nobody will cancel Peen for being a grumpy old curmudgeon). But just slinging labels on an entire generation for things that are truly out of their control is crazy, man. Yes, I agree they could get out and meet women. Yes, I agree they need to be proactive and find some confidence (they need to "man up" in terms you might choose). But these kids didn't put video games in their own hands as children or screw up their own educations and childhoods. School curriculums have been under attack since the late eighties. They didn't want us learning sex-ed back then. Some of us thought we could have taught the class... that's how badly we actually needed real information. But today, it's turning into political sparring grounds, and our kids are paying the price. How often have you seen me complain about the dumbing down of America? Much of that crap can be placed on both sides of the aisle. We need a renaissance in our education system with a return to a well-rounded education in basic skills, 3rs, stem, vocational, arts, and sports. And ffs teach them how to handle money, count change, balance an account, understand and complete their taxes, and how much interest, fees, penalties, and other things really cost. The education system and politics are failing us, not the educators.

Trust me Peen, when I say I've witnessed the same things in my lifetime and I used to call it the wussification of American Men. But I was willing to accept some changes I don't like to improve the things I really didn't like, and I think those little changes along the way were good for the most part. But then we hit the 'my feelings' generation, and things started getting weird at times. I don't get all the pronouns, but if your pronoun isn't he/she, you probably get it and should be able to call yourself whatever you want. There was a crazy old drunk in my hometown that always bragged he was a brigadier general, nobody believed him, but they went along and called him general anyway. Later on I got to know him as a friend of a friend and was invited to his house for a poker game with a few cop friends and confiscated weed/booze. Of course, I was up for that and as it turns out he was a brigadier general after all, we got to see the docs. Never understood why he wasn't believed until I learned about alcoholism. Anyway, that's another story.

So I think the problem is real, not just here in the US. I don't blame the people experiencing this because most probably don't even understand what's happening to them. How can you tell what normal is when things are so much different now? Hell if we had been born later, it could have been us in this situation. I have no idea how we address it competently as a nation, but the problem is real, labels or not.

Thanks for the balanced post.

I will comment on a few things where there might be a bit if disagreement or need some clarification.

" I don't glorify it the same way."

I don't know if the word is appropriate, at least in a narrow scope. In the broad scope, maybe it is. I do find glory in masculine and feminine. I do understand there is a diffence....not to say you don't. I used fewer words than you to highlight the things we don't need and things that need to change, so we don't disagree. I just didn't make an attempt to list out individual things in as much detail as you, but could have.

'my give-a-crap about political correctness was about as well honed as yours display here. "

I am well aware of it. I am just saying it is mostly BS. People are way too sensitive. If my use of the word "twerp" gets under peoples skin, they need to get a grip. It's just a word. Should I say sensitive, compassionate boys...the ones women don't want to marry?

" How can you tell what normal is when things are so much different now?"


I don't know, maybe the 10,000 or so years of maleness that proceeded?

No doubt things evolve. We don't drag women around by their hair as depicted in BC cartoons and that is good.

Anyway, good discussion. I have said my piece. I won't be interested in making further replies because I have basically said what I need to say.

Take care my friend. See, take is a gesture of compassion...lol

jc

This is what happens when you coddle kids. They don't learn how to handle failure. Life is rough. Girls reject you. Maybe you don't get picked for the job you want. Things don't work out. If they never learn how to deal with it when they are young, then what happens? They isolate, turn to drugs/alcohol/gaming addiction/internet addiction. Parents need to let kids fail and teach them skills to deal with it.

I certainly do understand what you're talking about. I'm not sure we see it exactly the same way and to the extent we do I think I would have worded it somewhat differently but I do see what you're getting at.

I just think there are a lot more factors at play here. I feel you have it narrowed down in a way that oversimplifies the situation. I'm also trying to take into account that we didn't have many of the choices kids have today. I mean neither of us would have dreamed of the internet when we were growing up. Some of these video games they have today have amazing graphics. So I'm not sure if I had grown up with all of the technology of today just how that would have impacted how I spent my time.

We grew up in time that the choices were far more limited. I grew up in a rural area where if you didn't hunt, fish, play sports and interact with other people there was nothing else to do. It also didn't hurt anything that I was raised by a former Army Master Sergeant.

And as far as vocational schools are concerned some such courses have been moved to community colleges with two year degrees involved. Once again I think that's more technology based than anything. To be an auto mechanic these days you need to be computer savvy. Hell I bought a new heat pump a couple of years ago and it is heavily computer based as it pertains to the controls.

I know where I grew up there is still a high school vocational school that serves 27 area high schools.

I don't really disagree with most of the results you claim we see today but I do think the answer as to why is more complicated than you make it sound.

Actually from everything I've seen they are isolating when they're young and that helps bring about many of the issue you pointed out after they are grown.

We could also bring up the point that mothers and grandmothers are raising a higher percentage of children than ever before. And many with no father figure in their lives.

Sometimes it isn't.

It probably is but I am not qualified to write a book on the matter. It's a message board. I will say I am pretty good at boiling down issues. I did it for a long time in my career

Sometimes we look for complicated answers when the answer isn't very complicated.

I don't think it's actually complicated, just more issues than you outlined as contributing factors.

100% agree with this... I don't think this is talked about enough... I think currently the numbers say 34% of children are raised by a single parent (typically the mother)... it's as high as 65% for black children...

1% of the US population is more than 3 million people. 3 million isn't an insignificant number. 3 million is a number big enough that it's hard for people to accurately imagine.

104 mass shooters would be way less than .00001% of the population. Why are you so concerned about .00001%? I'm not trying to say that mass shootings shouldn't be worried about. It just seems that your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense. "Don't worry about something because it's such a small percentage, but you should be worrying about this other thing that's a much smaller percentage."

As for the overall topic:

Honestly, I think a big part of the country's problem is that we largely train our young people by telling them what to think and do. Instead we should be teaching them how to think and see more than one side of issues. The this is the one right answer approach to education (multiple choice tests, etc) sets people up to be intolerant and unsuspecting of faulty indoctrination. We're setting young people up to be sheep of whichever herder can first grab their attention.

Those young adults that don't buy in to the "company line" of these are the answers, end up isolating themselves. Our groups seem to be taught to reject any deviation. "If you don't believe this, you're not one of us." If one is effectively told that they're not one of us over and over because they won't wholeheartedly accept some skewed version of this is the one right way, they tend towards isolation to figure out what the heck they are.

Great post.

I don't think 104 mass shootings accurately represents the problem with gun violence in our country. That seems like a down playing of the issue even if that was the quote in the other post. I'm also not sure that Daman was trying to make the point you seem to think? idk I do agree that Youngs minds should be taught how to think critically. Actually all people of all ages could benefit.

I'm addition... Balance in all things is important. It seems like there is a lack of balance in too many young peoples lives.

While I Don't have all the answers and rarely do, I do know that nothing will change. Change is hard, requires effort. Any plan or successful strategy to help influence and change things for the better would be met with resistance and political fighting. Efforts for change and influence would require funding and you know that's not going to be forth coming.

I feel like "knowing that nothing will change" is one of those skewed "answers" that many people blindly/unconsciously believe. While I don't see a top down, governmental change as likely, a grassroots approach could potentially work.

To do that, individuals would have to be willing to step out of their preprogrammed comfort zone of "how things are"/what they've been told are the best answers. People seem to be too focused on being right and sticking with their group ("option C" is the "best" answer on the key) to consider that there may be better options they haven't even contemplated.

Agreed. Change begins w/the individual. As we so often see just on this board alone, the focus is concentrated on placing the entire blame on the other "side," and making excuses or engaging in whataboutism. Those are lazy, ignorant tactics that do indeed guarantee that "nothing will change." I've often said that if we--as individuals--spent just a minute fraction of our time on trying to find solutions instead of assigning blame, our society would be a much better place.

To find solutions one must first identify the problems. The current trends are leading in the opposite direction.

We have identified the problems.

Some of them. Still others are more the perception than the reality.