The "consequences" that was previously made makes absolutely no sense. There were several of us [led by bonefish] that were talking of trading for Moore long before this trade was made. We basically stole Moore from the Jets. His salary is just above $1 million for the next two years. The Jets wanted that 2nd round pick to throw in the Rodgers trade and they then had to sign Hardman for around $6.5 million. The Jets are so desperate to land Rodgers that they let the Browns fleece them in this particular trade.
I believe the Hardman deal was made prior to trading Moore making him expendable. Moore was a disappointment for the Jets. I understand the environment there on their O was not a good one. Still He was the first player taken in the 2nd round (???) so he cam into the NFL with high expectations.
I actually have a good feeling about Moore but its just a feeling and not close to fact yet.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
The "consequences" that was previously made makes absolutely no sense. There were several of us [led by bonefish] that were talking of trading for Moore long before this trade was made. We basically stole Moore from the Jets. His salary is just above $1 million for the next two years. The Jets wanted that 2nd round pick to throw in the Rodgers trade and they then had to sign Hardman for around $6.5 million. The Jets are so desperate to land Rodgers that they let the Browns fleece them in this particular trade.
I believe the Hardman deal was made prior to trading Moore making him expendable. Moore was a disappointment for the Jets. I understand the environment there on their O was not a good one. Still He was the first player taken in the 2nd round (???) so he cam into the NFL with high expectations.
I actually have a good feeling about Moore but its just a feeling and not close to fact yet.
Moore entered the NFL as a potential #1 WR with a stellar background. Teams don't part with players like that after 2-years on rookie deals unless they have failed to meet expectations. Teams certainly don't replace said player with a backup from another team at 6-times the cost.
That said, I don't disagree with getting Moore to see if the Browns can turn around his career. Dollar wise, it's a no brainer with potential. I'm not so keen on using a 2nd round pick on a player taken in the 2nd round just 2 years ago that has failed to live up to the hype, but Berry has a documented history of putting players on the roster with potential. So now the Browns have a #1 WR in Cooper and a #3 WR in DPJ. Berry was expected to upgrade the room with a clear cut #2. He's decided to do that on the cheap with (as it stands) 12 guys with "potential." Which ones that will step up for those 4-5 available positions remains to be seen but should lead to a very interesting camp but a clear #2 isn't on the roster yet based on documented history of play.
#1 Armani Cooper - 9 years' experience, 2022 stats of 78 receptions on 132 targets for 1160 yards and 9 TD's #3 Donovan Peoples-Jones - 3 years' experience, 3-year average of 36 receptions on 58 targets for 580 yards and 2.7 TD's
POTENTIAL CANDIDATES (ranked by average yds none of which has been better than DPJ) Elijah Moore - 2 years' experience, 2-year average of 40 receptions on 71 targets for 492 yds and 3 TD's Marquise Goodwin - 9 years' experience, 5 yr avg of 28 receptions on 50 targets for 449 yards and 2.4 TD's Jakeem Grant - 7 years' experience, 5 yr avg of 20 receptions on 32 targets for 228 yards and 1.4 TD's David Bell - 1 year experience, 24 receptions on 35 targets for 214 yards and zero TD's Demetric Felton - 2 years' experience, 2-year average of 10 receptions on 13 targets for 95 yards and 1 TD's Anthony Schwartz - 2 years' experience, 2-year average of 7 receptions on 17 targets for 93 yards and .5 TD's Michael Woods - 1 year experience, 5 receptions on 10 targets for 45 yards and zero TD's Jaelon Darden - 2 years' experience, 2-year average of 4 receptions on 7 targets for 35 yards and zero TD's Daylen Baldwin - 1 year experience, 2 receptions on 2 targets for 25 yards and zero TD's Marquez Stevenson - 2 years' experience mostly practice squad Mike Harley - 1 year on the practice squad Isaiah Weston - 2 years' experience practice squad
Our QB situation has not been stellar either. Yet DPJ has put up slightly better numbers that Moore. And once again, what someone says about a player coming out of college more often then not doesn't quite translate in terms of NFL production. We see how that plays out over and over again.
I'm not saying Moore is a bad WR or that the Browns got a bad deal here. I actually think they did a good job and didn't overpay. They need a legitimate third guy and they got him at a good price. They have Cooper as their #1 and now they have their #2 and #3 targets in place. Whether that be DPJ as #2 and Moore at #3 or vice versa.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I have tried to say this a couple of times, but we did not give up a 2nd round pick for just Moore. We gave up a 2nd round pick for Moore and a 3rd round pick. That's a significant difference.
Context. Watch the player. Numbers can be misleading. Receivers need quarterbacks to throw the ball to them on time and accurately.
Moore was a steal by AB. He will fit perfectly with DW. He is the right guy to find when you have a qb like DW who can move in the pocket and extend plays.
I think AB did very well with FA so far especially with the Moore trade. I don't understand why no matter what moves we make a few posters always find fault with it. I've been negative a few times over the years, it's hard not to be being a Browns fan, but overall, I will say it's a good move or at least take a wait and see approach. The videos show a lot about Moore and what he's capable of. I hope AB does as good a job finding solid players in the draft.
Moore entered the NFL as a potential #1 WR with a stellar background. Teams don't part with players like that after 2-years on rookie deals unless they have failed to meet expectations. Teams certainly don't replace said player with a backup from another team at 6-times the cost.
I agree with that in principle.
That said, the Jets are also trying to land Rodgers and need to add solid piks, either to trade to the Packers or to supplement their draft.
Seeing that the Jets have a very solid WR room, exposing one of those assets to gain a top pick makes perfect sense given the situation. If they weren't going for a QB, I doubt they would have traded Moore.
In short, I don't think the trade was made because the Jets gave up on Moore.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
The Jets made the deal to get the second round pick for working the Rodgers deal.
Until you dig into Moore and really look. You don't know about him. Numbers alone don't tell a story without context.
Understand the Jets while Moore was there. Look at who was throwing the ball or not throwing the ball. Look at advanced analytics on Moore.
Listen to guys like Greg Cosell who know what Moore was in college. How he was used. Then what happened with the Jets.
Most had Moore going in the first round. He ended up as pick 34. He is 23 years old now.
Turn around his career? You could make a case for his career has not yet begun.
Under that concept if applied to Baker the kid was a HOFer...lol
What sticks in my craw is the fact that for two years now we have not been able to use a First or a Second round pick when it has been described on if you HIT with those picks or if you Bust on those picks that is a barometer on building a dynasty or forever floundering and trying to catch up with the competition.
If Berry feels those draft picks are just a crap shoot then I want him gone - a Personnel guy who doesn't have a clue about drafting impact players is not an NFL GM. Mind you I actually like Berry and I think he can pick em...again the trade sucked and put us in cap hell for a long time and a team made up of FA I don't think wins - possibly one year then they got to do it over again, building through the draft you build a dynasty where you are in the playoffs year after year! jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
History on this board has been rewritten. "Your future is built on the draft" has turned into, "eh". And there seems to no longer be a salary cap which should be considered.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
The Jets made the deal to get the second round pick for working the Rodgers deal.
Until you dig into Moore and really look. You don't know about him. Numbers alone don't tell a story without context.
Understand the Jets while Moore was there. Look at who was throwing the ball or not throwing the ball. Look at advanced analytics on Moore.
Listen to guys like Greg Cosell who know what Moore was in college. How he was used. Then what happened with the Jets.
Most had Moore going in the first round. He ended up as pick 34. He is 23 years old now.
Turn around his career? You could make a case for his career has not yet begun.
Under that concept if applied to Baker the kid was a HOFer...lol
What sticks in my craw is the fact that for two years now we have not been able to use a First or a Second round pick when it has been described on if you HIT with those picks or if you Bust on those picks that is a barometer on building a dynasty or forever floundering and trying to catch up with the competition.
If Berry feels those draft picks are just a crap shoot then I want him gone - a Personnel guy who doesn't have a clue about drafting impact players is not an NFL GM. Mind you I actually like Berry and I think he can pick em...again the trade sucked and put us in cap hell for a long time and a team made up of FA I don't think wins - possibly one year then they got to do it over again, building through the draft you build a dynasty where you are in the playoffs year after year! jmho
My opinion is that Elijah Moore is a better receiver (who can also be used from the back field, lined up as a RB) then what this Draft class has to offer ... and we already have our franchise QB. ^ There's two first round pick values right there.
For the cost of only having to drop down 32 spots and not lose a Draft pick is pure genius.
Cooper and Moore gives us two excellent route technicians, which will losen up the box for Nick Chubb after years of running him into stacked boxes ... and we know what DPJ can do if they sleep on him.
Good solid moves were made by AB. The DW move was a good one too or at least a good gamble because, as I've stated numerous of times on this board, we don't do a very good job of 1st round drafting and we sure don't develop QB's. That doesn't mean we should always trade our 1st round picks for established players that's not what I'm intimating. A team that wants to be a contender year after year has to hit on their high draft picks. We don't and the results speak for themselves over the last 23 years. We took a different route with DW and Moore. I do hope it's only temporary because I do believe an NFL team should build through the draft. JMO
This FO hasn't been here and in charge for 23 years. I have no idea what the success or failure of other FO's have to do with this FO drafting players.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Good solid moves were made by AB. The DW move was a good one too or at least a good gamble because, as I've stated numerous of times on this board, we don't do a very good job of 1st round drafting and we sure don't develop QB's. That doesn't mean we should always trade our 1st round picks for established players that's not what I'm intimating. A team that wants to be contend year after year has to hit on their high draft picks. We don't and the results speak for themselves over the last 23 years. We took a different route with DW and Moore. I do hope it's only temporary because I do believe an NFL team should build through the draft. JMO
I wouldn't read too much into the process ... because now that we can check QB off the list ... then I think that we will pivot back to building through the Draft.
That's what should be done build through the draft. I understand this FO hasn't been here for 23 years but our track record is awful and I can't understand why it goes from one regime to another. I believe right now with AB we have our best chance of drafting better players. I really like him and feel he is very competent.
That's what should be done build through the draft. I understand this FO hasn't been here for 23 years but our track record is awful and I can't understand why it goes from one regime to another. I believe right now with AB we have our best chance of drafting better players. I really like him and feel he is very competent.
Yes, I read between the lines there and knew that you weren't just speaking of this current regime ... but the results remained the same for the most part.
AB still does need to show that he can draft certain positions and honestly we could have to wait a little longer to evaluate them given our current remaining draft capital ... with anything after day two your percentages are not so good to begin with.
The decision was made to get a franchise quarterback. In order to win at the highest level you need a quarterback to play at that level.
We had to pay a price in order to sign DW both in money and draft capital.
Once DW was in house. You have to work the cap. AB IMO has been cap conscious in the free agents signed.
At the same we do have eight picks in the draft.
Going forward it is a matter of balance. Continue to draft and develop players. Use free agents to fill holes while balancing the cap.
In the end it is about the roster you take to the field and how they play that counts.
DW gives us a chance to compete against the other teams with great quarterbacks.
Berry, Stefanski and the team will be judged by their record this year.
All the talk about the cap, DW, KS, AB, the rest of the team, how to build the team, DW's salary, drafting etc. etc.
All that will is on the stove. 2023 Browns will sink or swim. At seasons end we will either be happy with the results or not.
Attempting to judge all that has transpired to date is meaningless. We have to wait for the results.
I like the the moves made. I agree with the why, and the changes made. I hope the results will lead to a Super Bowl win at some point soon.
Andrew Berry is in a win now mode. He finally came to The realization that in order for this franchise to Ascend, the days of drafting wait and see players only stunts The progress. And I will tell the Cincinnati Bengals essentially Forced Berry to trade for Watson. Here's my reasoning
In 2020 the Browns won a playoff game. Played the Chiefs Tough in a playoff loss. That next season the Browns Were picked by so many "experts" to represent the AFC In the SB or at least go to the AFC Title game. But very few saw the Bengals as a threat to win the North. The experts laughed when they drafted JaMarr Chase Over Penei Sewell. Berry got content and thought The Browns had a easy road to win the North. Even his drafting reflected his arrogance. He took Anthony Schwartz in RD 3. He knew Schwartz was A project.
But alas the Bengals won the North and Berry never saw it Coming. He knew now the Browns had the Bills Chiefs Bengals As teams to overcome. The Dolphins added Tyrek Hill To match-up with those 3 teams. So Berry knew Baker Mayfield no way no how was good Enough to get the Browns to the AFC Championship Game. At best Baker was a beneficiary of the talent around him. Much like at Oklahoma. So Berry and Haslam now have to some how get into arms Race. Burrow Allen and Mahomes are double barreled Shotguns. Mayfield is a Derringer.
They trade for Watson and use 2022 as a throwaway year. So in order to even have a chance to compete with the Big 3 in AFC...Berry now has to bring in proven talent. Akins...Moore...Goodwin...and Instead of conservative 3 TE offense and ground and pound attack...Berry knows The Browns have to change the pass run ratio and The passing schemes downfield.
The decision was made to get a franchise quarterback. In order to win at the highest level you need a quarterback to play at that level.
We had to pay a price in order to sign DW both in money and draft capital.
Once DW was in house. You have to work the cap. AB IMO has been cap conscious in the free agents signed.
At the same we do have eight picks in the draft.
Going forward it is a matter of balance. Continue to draft and develop players. Use free agents to fill holes while balancing the cap.
In the end it is about the roster you take to the field and how they play that counts.
DW gives us a chance to compete against the other teams with great quarterbacks.
Berry, Stefanski and the team will be judged by their record this year.
All the talk about the cap, DW, KS, AB, the rest of the team, how to build the team, DW's salary, drafting etc. etc.
All that will is on the stove. 2023 Browns will sink or swim. At seasons end we will either be happy with the results or not.
Attempting to judge all that has transpired to date is meaningless. We have to wait for the results.
I like the the moves made. I agree with the why, and the changes made. I hope the results will lead to a Super Bowl win at some point soon.
Andrew Berry is in a win now mode. He finally came to The realization that in order for this franchise to Ascend, the days of drafting wait and see players only stunts The progress. And I will tell the Cincinnati Bengals essentially Forced Berry to trade for Watson. Here's my reasoning
In 2020 the Browns won a playoff game. Played the Chiefs Tough in a playoff loss. That next season the Browns Were picked by so many "experts" to represent the AFC In the SB or at least go to the AFC Title game. But very few saw the Bengals as a threat to win the North. The experts laughed when they drafted JaMarr Chase Over Penei Sewell. Berry got content and thought The Browns had a easy road to win the North. Even his drafting reflected his arrogance. He took Anthony Schwartz in RD 3. He knew Schwartz was A project.
But alas the Bengals won the North and Berry never saw it Coming. He knew now the Browns had the Bills Chiefs Bengals As teams to overcome. The Dolphins added Tyrek Hill To match-up with those 3 teams. So Berry knew Baker Mayfield no way no how was good Enough to get the Browns to the AFC Championship Game. At best Baker was a beneficiary of the talent around him. Much like at Oklahoma. So Berry and Haslam now have to some how get into arms Race. Burrow Allen and Mahomes are double barreled Shotguns. Mayfield is a Derringer.
They trade for Watson and use 2022 as a throwaway year. So in order to even have a chance to compete with the Big 3 in AFC...Berry now has to bring in proven talent. Akins...Moore...Goodwin...and Instead of conservative 3 TE offense and ground and pound attack...Berry knows The Browns have to change the pass run ratio and The passing schemes downfield.
Just a couple of comments on your post. I agree that mistakes will be made. I can't think of a single team in the NFL where mistakes aren't made by even the most experienced of staffs. I don't think your comment, "you either trust Berry or you don't" holds up. Sure you can feel that way if you like but that's not how a job review works. You measure each move and decision independently. Some will be positive and some won't. As such some should be applauded and some shouldn't. Each move is independent of the others and not put into a one size fits all bag.
And reality dictates the Browns are a multi billion dollar corporation. Fans see it as a sport and as such it's hard to take the overall business aspect in perspective. When you look at the money and investment Haslam has made to "win now" I think his expectations will be very high. What might be winning enough games for some of the most loyal fan base may be enough for Haslam to justify keeping Berry and or Stefanski. The expectations between the fan base and Haslam may be quite different.
I certainly understand the continuity aspect and have often times, just like yourself, been a big proponent of it. And much like yourself I hope they meet Haslam's expectation much like you do. But after all the money Haslam has spent he is a businessman. And when it comes to business return on investment is the bottom line.
I think Berry has done very well during this off season. He has seemingly addressed most every major weakness the Browns had. I don't see where he overpaid in accomplishing that. But as per usual we will have to see how that plays out on the field. Looking good on paper has never solved anything in and of itself.
As Vince Lombardi said, "Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing."
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
As a fan I think you either trust Berry or you don't.
He is responsible for the roster. How he builds the roster and manages the cap is all a part of being the GM.
Stefanski has to take the roster that Berry built and make them play as a team.
It not more complicated than that.
Both Berry and Stefanski are young guys. Mistakes will be made. There will be times you are learning as you go.
Hopefully they will win enough games to keep their jobs. Then continue to grow and get better at all things their jobs require.
Why have the Chiefs Bills and Bengals jumped over the Browns In the AFC? And even the Steelers have leaped over the Browns Even if the Browns go to the playoffs and let's say they lose In the opening RD is that progress? Not really cause you aren't no better ahead then you were In 2020. The harsh truth is the Browns have accomplished very Little under Berry's direction as GM. Yeah he wins the off season Super Bowl every year. I mean really how much time is Berry allowed to get to the SB?
The decision was made to get a franchise quarterback. In order to win at the highest level you need a quarterback to play at that level.
We had to pay a price in order to sign DW both in money and draft capital.
Once DW was in house. You have to work the cap. AB IMO has been cap conscious in the free agents signed.
At the same we do have eight picks in the draft.
Going forward it is a matter of balance. Continue to draft and develop players. Use free agents to fill holes while balancing the cap.
In the end it is about the roster you take to the field and how they play that counts.
DW gives us a chance to compete against the other teams with great quarterbacks.
Berry, Stefanski and the team will be judged by their record this year.
All the talk about the cap, DW, KS, AB, the rest of the team, how to build the team, DW's salary, drafting etc. etc.
All that will is on the stove. 2023 Browns will sink or swim. At seasons end we will either be happy with the results or not.
Attempting to judge all that has transpired to date is meaningless. We have to wait for the results.
I like the the moves made. I agree with the why, and the changes made. I hope the results will lead to a Super Bowl win at some point soon.
I agree that we have to wait to see the results ... but we can see that the process of acquiring the talent is in line with our deficiencies and we haven't always been able to say that, and many times the FO would leave us scratching our heads in confusion with moves that seemingly made no since.
I think that last year was an outlier in that once the 11 games suspension vertict was known they decided that fixing our needs and spending future cap money at DT was a futile pursuit that would have changed little in the big picture of last season. They will never admit as such, but it was pretty clear that last seasons expectations where not very high without having Watson for 11 games, who still would have needed some games to shake off the rust even with a 6 - 8 game suspension.
Why have the Chiefs Bills and Bengals jumped over the Browns
They have Mahomes, Allen, and Burrow. I don't think those teams jumped us. KC has been the class of the conference for awhile. Buffalo has been above us for awhile. Burrow was injured for part of our playoff year.
We had Baker Mayfield, who the entire league thinks very little of. You have never thought Baker was any good. I am not placing you in the Baker Mayfield fan club.
We made the bold and brave decision to move away from Baker and went all-in to secure the best QB on the market. Why are you not happy w/that?
We were told that the move was bad and that we were in salary cap hell and would not be able to sign any players. Yet, we killed it in free agency and plugged a lot of holes. What's wrong w/that?
Why have the Chiefs Bills and Bengals jumped over the Browns
They have Mahomes, Allen, and Burrow. I don't think those teams jumped us. KC has been the class of the conference for awhile. Buffalo has been above us for awhile. Burrow was injured for part of our playoff year.
We had Baker Mayfield, who the entire league thinks very little of. You have never thought Baker was any good. I am not placing you in the Baker Mayfield fan club.
We made the bold and brave decision to move away from Baker and went all-in to secure the best QB on the market. Why are you not happy w/that?
We were told that the move was bad and that we were in salary cap hell and would not be able to sign any players. Yet, we killed it in free agency and plugged a lot of holes. What's wrong w/that?
Yes Berry has done well addressing the Browns needs this off season He was very aggressive yet was financially smart at The same time. But I think these moves do have.a sense of Urgency about it. The AFC is loaded. The only teams I can't see in the playoff conversation in the AFC is The Colts Texans, Ravens ( if Lamar is moved) This is a huge year for Berry and Stefanski
I understand your point and I agree. You do look at each move independently.
So far in free agency I agree with the moves Berry has made. The draft? I don't feel qualified to question their picks. I may have an opinion on players but there is way more involved in the draft.
I stated clearly that Berry overestimated the DT on last years team.
Overall I trust Berry as a GM. I know you do not hit on every draft pick.
I am fully aware of what is riding on this season. I want it to work. I want the staff to stay together.
I feel we will field a good team. I also think we will see the DW we are expecting to see.
We were told that the move was bad and that we were in salary cap hell and would not be able to sign any players.
Yeah, they weren't speaking long term or using the line you became such a fan of.... "kicking the can down the road". Let's pretend none of that happened.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
It did happen. However, you and a couple of others were talking about this year on multiple threads. Again.......I'll propose a bet. If I can find posts that back up my claim--you leave the board. If I can't--I'll leave the board. The last time I offered that bet, you brought up Baker Mayfield and me leaving the board last year. Man up......or shut up!
Ooooh, Mr. Shut up! Playing the tough gut I see. lmao I reported exactly what you did. And everyone who was here is a witness. And what the watson move did was leave us in cap hell this year. So that is and was true. There were ways to mitigate that for the short term and that was also discussed. That's where you learned to hate the term "kicking the can down the road". You want to have a got you moment and pick out certain posts without putting them in context with everything that was being stated at the time to allow for context.
You are never going to dictate to me what to post. You're never going to bait me into some selective posts that do not show the overall sentiment. Your games and superiority complex have grown old. I won't be shutting up any time soon especially when you try to paint a portrait that doesn't exist. Get over yourself. You aren't the teacher here and this isn't your classroom.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Why have the Chiefs Bills and Bengals jumped over the Browns
They have Mahomes, Allen, and Burrow. I don't think those teams jumped us. KC has been the class of the conference for awhile. Buffalo has been above us for awhile. Burrow was injured for part of our playoff year.
We had Baker Mayfield, who the entire league thinks very little of. You have never thought Baker was any good. I am not placing you in the Baker Mayfield fan club.
We made the bold and brave decision to move away from Baker and went all-in to secure the best QB on the market. Why are you not happy w/that?
We were told that the move was bad and that we were in salary cap hell and would not be able to sign any players. Yet, we killed it in free agency and plugged a lot of holes. What's wrong w/that?
Nothing.
Savage was right about one thing, we have a lot of Woah is me fans.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
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