DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Here We Go again... Open Season?

Supposedly the mother was very concerned about the shooters mental health, knew about the 7 guns owned and was antigun. I don't know if she could have gotten the family doctor involved. I'm am not hip to that portion of law, especially in TN.

Had there been armed staff in the school it may not have been able to stop this after it began. Stopping if before it begins is ideal, but I am not ok with a precrime unit.

She was under a doctors care for mental health issues. Tennessee simply does not allow that alone from being a condition of purchasing firearms. Here are the laws in Tennessee....

https://trackbill.com/bill/tennesse...itle-33-and-title-39-chapter-17/1673941/

Even the National Association of School Resource Officers openly admit that SRO's will not prevent school shootings and would only possibly help cut down on the number of victims.........

Questions remain on whether school resource officers can keep schools safe

But the National Association of School Resource Officers said what’s needed is more mental health care for students, as well as more realistic expectations about how their officers can - and do - reduce violence.

“If you’ve got a person with a weapon bent on killing people, you’re probably going to lose some people on the front end -- I just hate to say that -- and our job becomes trying to contain that and stop further killing,” said Mo Canaday, executive director of the National Association of School Resource Officers.

https://www.wilx.com/2022/05/26/que...resource-officers-can-keep-schools-safe/

Here is the latest update from one of our local Nashville stations from about half an hour or so ago. No, the parents did not know she had the weapons and as I've stated, she was under a doctors care for emotional issues..........

Here's what we know on Day 2 during The Covenant School shooting aftermath

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (WTVF) — More information came to light Tuesday afternoon about the response to The Covenant School shooting that left seven dead, including the shooter.

Authorities with the Metro Nashville Police Department said none of the individuals — three 9-year-old students and three adults — weren't targeted at the school building. Police have interviewed Audrey Hale's parents, who told them that their child was under a doctor's care for an emotional disorder. They didn't want Hale to have guns, thinking Hale had sold the only gun Hale had.

Police said that wasn't the case. The shooter had ultimately purchased more firearms to make a total of seven, which were hidden in the Hale household.

"We don't have a motive at this time," MNPD Chief John Drake said. "In the manifesto, there are different writings about other locations. There were talks about the school. There was a map of the school and a drawing. There was quiet a bit of writing to it. Our team and the FBI has been working on this."

Drake said by the time he went into the school, the children shot had been transported. He saw the head of school near an office, where Drake could determine that the two met in the hallway. He said the shooter stood away from the glass to avoid being hit back, as the shooter fired at police when they entered the building.

It took 14 minutes from the time of the 911 call until the shooter was dead. Two members of an officer team fired on the shooter. Those two officers are officer Rex Englebert, a four-year MNPD veteran, and officer Michael Collazo, a nine-year MNPD veteran.

"I talked to the officers earlier, and they are trying to decompress and make sense of all of this," Drake said. "I talked to President Biden, and he’s going to reach out and talk to them as well. They are trying to remove themselves from this."

Asked if he would ask officers to do anything differently, Drake said each situation was evaluated.

"One of my principles is we are innovating and evolving to get better," Drake said. "From what I have seen, I don’t have a problem with it. We always want to get there in two or three minutes."

On Monday, March 27, six people were shot and killed by a gunman at The Covenant School.

Police received the 911 call for the shooting at 10:13 a.m. Within 14 minutes, Metro Police were able to take down the shooter, 28-year-old Audrey Hale.

Hale gained access to the building through a side door that they shot through. From there, the shooter went upstairs and shot at police through the windows.

Two members of an officer team fired on Hale. Those two officers are officer Rex Englebert, a four-year MNPD veteran, and officer Michael Collazo, a nine-year MNPD veteran.

Who died in the shooting?

Evelyn Dieckhaus, 9
Hallie Scruggs, 9
William Kinney, 9
Cynthia Peak, 61
Katherine Koonce, 60
Mike Hill, age 61

The shooter was a 28-year-old Nashvillian who lived in the Belmont-Hillsboro neighborhood.

https://www.newschannel5.com/news/h...g-the-covenant-school-shooting-aftermath

I also know from local reporting that she was a former student of this school and considered herself as transsexual. This being a highly religious school affiliated directly with an adjoining church, I have no idea if the way she was treated there has anything to do with this shooting but at this point it appears a possibility IMO.

I don't know if TN law would allow the doctor to give from treating to an involuntary admit in cases like this. Clearly she should was having issues that were concerning. Stigmas of mental health do not help.


Cutting down is doing better, as I have pointed out. If we drop the extreme platform propaganda, having a gun on you is not a guarantee you will survive a use of force encounter. Not bringing a gun to a gunfight severely diminishes your odds of surviving. Make no mistake, those children were forced into a gun fight. I am not suggesting arming children, but their protectors were also forced into a gun fight, and they were not close to ready for it. They might have fared better had they been armed accordingly.

First, I am not left. Never have been, never will be. I can't help that the right fell off the deep end with its policies.

Now, about the Rambo wannabe insult. I stand behind it. Maybe someone will realize the sheer insanity that we are losing too many lives by allowing these types of weapons to be handed out like bacon, eggs and sausage at an all you can eat breakfast buffet.

Maybe calling someone a Rambo wannabe will hurt a tender ego. But it won't hurt as much as being a victim of a mass shooting or having to deal with the loss of a loved one, or the trauma of the event.

Go watch the Jim Jefferies videos on Americans and guns.... lol... that will get you going... he calls out the Rambo wannabes as well with more humor than I can muster.

Then maybe you would think a bit. Left, right or in the middle it does not matter, accepting of the current status is just insane.

Pdawg is not a right winger who fell off the deep end and he is not linked to mass murders. Folks like you assign labels, hurl insults, gang up on others who might not fully share your opinions, and spread hate and divisiveness on a daily basis.

Then people have the gall to ask why there are so many more violent crimes in this country than others. I did some research and our country is far more divided than others. The constant preaching of hate and taking sides has caused a plethora of issues that don't seem fixable. But, you know........you can say you "won" the argument.

Your profile indicates you live in CA. If you ban a standard AR15 someone will just work around it. CA has so many restrictions on what constitutes a banned "assault rifle" and yet they were all worked around. Fires the same round. Ballistic energy is a function of velocity and mass (Ek = 1/2MV^2). What a gun looks like and what attachments it has does not affect that formula.

In this case it looks like the shooter carried an AR15 pistol. This would have a shorter barrel than a standard rifle which reduces velocity. She also carried a Sub2000 and I would guess that was chambered in 9mm since she also had a 9mm handgun and it seems a trend to stick with a similar round for multiple guns. Sub2000 is offered in other pistol calibers but I'd be surprised if her's was .40SW for instance.

As an aside, it has been shown that insulting people and name calling does not actually help win anyone to your arguments. It simply turns them off. People who shoot AR-15s do so because they, in general, a good performing rifle that can be fun to shoot. When I wanna act like Rambo I go M60 anyway.

I am tired of your "Thoughts and Prayers" They don't work.

I never suggested we use thoughts or prayers to stop evil people from killing innocents.

I'm tired of you suggesting Pdawg and his family are responsible for mass murders because they legally shoot their guns. Labels are dangerous.

Let me be clear.... Keep you nose to your self... If Pdawg has an issue with my comment, let him raise it.

In other words... Go pound sand.

Let me be clear.......If you are going to hurl labeling insults that are fueled by ignorance and a lack of decency, be prepared to hear about it.

I read your comments and didn’t respond because you weren’t worth my time. I try and be fair but when someone comes at me like you did makes reasonable conversations impossible. I’m only responding now because you got on Vers for trying to have my back.

I think it pertains to the moral void we have in this country. Not where people were shot.

I never thought I'd see the gun-toting 2A loving right, who would rather die than be sheep or let you touch their guns, families, or religion, be so sheepish while kids are being killed in religious schools in their communities on their watch. It's almost like an evil exterior force controls their minds, making them BETAS to the man.

I don't.
And I'd argue with you about 'moral decay,' as well... in a different thread.

If the 'moral decay' angle is your personal stance, please state it as such, on your own dime- and we can have that separate discussion, You and I.
What I won't accept in this thread is your interpretation of what he meant. He has a working brain and can form sentences for himself.

I think DotD said exactly what he meant to say. He literally (and purposefully) used God, schools and evil in the same sentence. I believe his intent was quite clear.

This is his actual quote:

There is no room for ambiguity in what he said. DotD said exactly what he meant. We both know him from his years of posts. He's one of the most consistent, forthright, plain-spoken posters we have at this community.

He's a decent man whose theory I believe has holes... and is now being invited to discuss.
He should be allowed to address/discuss this openly with me, in his own words, with no intermediaries/interpreters.

He gets that measure of respect from me.
And he deserves it from you, as well.

Put as plainly as I can: DotD doesn't need your downfield blocking on this play.


You are not his spokesperson.


__________________________


Which now compels me to double-down on my query:

DotD: Your claim is that evil has been allowed to fill a void created by the absence of God in our schools. And yet, this tragedy occurred on the campus of a private Christian school.
By your terms, this school should have been one of the safest places from evil influence in America. How do you square your original assertion with the facts that the blood of innocents was shed at this school? A school which literally had the worship of God at the center of its curriculum?

I would like to have this conversation with you.
Not as adversaries in any way. But as two folks trying to figure complicated stuff out.

best,
Clem

Never intended for it to be such. It was my comment about your comment in an open forum.

I would go further than that. As a Country we have pushed God out. Our Founding Fathers put God first in all they did and defeated enemies far greater than they were. Just like Israel did in the Book of Joshua. Israel as a Country when they put God first expanded its borders and was blessed thru King David's reign. The Country's now called Syria and Jordan were all part of Israel during that time. Then many of the following King's started worshiping other God's and started losing battles, losing territory, then the Country was divided into Israel and Judea. Finally, not turning from their evil ways the Country was taken into exile and did not exist for 2,000 years. Its inhabitants were spread all over the world. A people without a Country. Moses warned them of that destiny in the Book of Deuteronomy. It is also a warning to all future Countries like ours. Put God first and you will be blessed, and your borders will be expanded. Start following other God's and he will leave and the trails and tribulation that befell Israel will fall on you.

I see that happening now in our Country. Our past is full of Leaders who trusted in and put God first in all they did. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, and there were many more. We don't put God first in anything now. We have asked him to leave our politics, our schools, and almost everything else. What do you think will happen? It won't be good. Do not learn from the past and you destined to repeat it. God has a Book it is called the Bible. Learn from it or repeat the mistakes others have made in the past.

Nice headline.

#jErNaLiZm

It would be a fascinating topic to discuss. It could be educational and possibly illuminating, provided that the participants were respectful of contrary opinions and refrain from the usual insults, labeling, and misrepresenting what others are trying to say in order to "win" an argument.

I think it could be a good discussion because while I am not at all religious, don't read the Bible, and I'm not even sure if I believe in God or not. However, as a former educator, I have noticed the moral character of certain groups of people. Those observations have convinced me that the topic is worth investigating.

The question becomes do we have everyone showing symptoms of mental illness committed to institutions? Everyone who has issues people "find concerning"? I think the bigger problem is allowing people who have shown signs of mental illness to purchase firearms.


First I would say in order to be in a gun fight one must have a gun to be able to fight with. So no, children aren't in a gun fight. They are victims of mentally ill people having guns.

As of now the most common profile of school shooters are loners who keep to themselves and are socially awkward. I knew several children myself who would fit into that profile in high school. The risk is very real that children who are simply shy and socially awkward would be labeled with having mental issues.

I'm not sure of how much more I can do than quote the man who is the head of an association that represents School Resource Officers explaining that their presence will not stop or prevent school shootings.

I would like to address one thing however. When I was younger I was an avid hunter and even still target shoot with different weapons. I'd like to know why anyone would need a 30 round magazine or 50 to 100 round barrel magazine for either one of these activities? I can tell you from experience you rarely get 2 accurate shots off at game and almost never get 3. So that large of a capacity holds no purpose when hunting. I don't see what purpose it serves in target practice or competitive shooting either.

I know there's the "mah rights!" part of it but at what point do we use a little common sense in terms of saving the life of our children. And everyone else for that matter. It would seem like a much easier and better solution limiting magazine sizes than trying to man and arm every school in our nation.

There was a fight and it involved at least one gun. Once the violence starts you do what you can to survive, that is the fight. This was a one sided gun fight but it was a gun fight none the less. The sad part is the people who were attacked were not capable of fighting for their lives properly. Again I am not saying children should have been armed, but staff being armed could have changed this. The shooter left a more secured environment for this one knowing there was less security.



It may not STOP school shootings but it may reduce the number if innocents killed. Studies have shown that mass shootings stop when the shooter is confronted with force. The sooner it happens the smaller lower the number of innocents killed. And I was not referring to merely more RSOs. I want school STAFF armed. Schools are too big to be secured by one or two people. And uniformed officers are obvious and avoidable until after things start. Having staff armed that can protect students that are not obvious it changes the calculus of this.

And, I have said before, having a gun in defense does not guarantee success. The tool is there to help even the odds.
[/quote]



Magazine size is a straw argument. Someone walked into a school to murder children but somehow they would have followed stupid laws limiting the size of the magazines they carried? She had 3 guns with her, how many magazines did she have? No one is reloading magazines in the middle of this. Swapping takes almost no time, especially if you have practiced it. And as I have pointed out, the VA Tech shooting was a hand gun with 10 round magazines.

Every generation has been decrying the moral decay of the next generation since the start of time.

It is a right of passage from one generation to the next.

Unfortunately, they are not in a position to pass judgement. History does that.

No, it's not a straw man argument and you still did not address the question I posed. Certainly that wouldn't stop all school shootings. Just like having school resource officers won't. But it appears you promote one way of cutting down on the number victims but oppose other ways to help accomplish the same goal.

And if you mean that she had a number of targets on her list, that's true. Yet I have also shown you she was a former student of this school. There's no evidence to actually suggest she chose this school due to less security. She actually had detailed maps of this school which they found in her home. Having detailed maps of this school and being a former student, which made her familiar with the entire structure seems far more likely.

One thing I think you need to keep in mind is that most of these school shooters are young and have very little experience with firearms. So as far as being highly experienced with switching out magazines goes, I would say it's safe to say they aren't highly proficient at that. Those two or three seconds while a magazine is being changed is an opening to neutralize a gunman.

Not only that, some of the founding fathers themselves, and even in the constitution they made it clear how they felt about any religion having sway or power in government.....

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
--John Adams

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

This from a letter from Thomas Jefferson dated April 11, 1823, letter to John Adams:

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding....

There is no mention of God in the constitution. The words "In God we trust" wasn't added to our money until 1861 during the Civil war. "Under God" wasn't added to the Pledge of Allegiance until 1956.

The claims that The United States was based on Christianity ore false.

In regards to your question: Why would I have an answer to that when you have, quite often and rudely, pointed out I am not a phyciatrist. Any answer I give will just be met with your usual derision as it likely won't agree with your and I am the one that is not a mental health professional. I pointedly skipped it.


It's been reported she changed targets due to security concerns. Of course that could be part of the haze to "it's better to be first than right" in reporting. She seems to have had detailed maps of other targets as well. Second guessing the mind of evil is a difficult science.

Magazine size is a straw argument. The idea that body could would be lower if the law banned higher capacity magazines is ridiculous. This person committed murder but a magazine ban would have stopped them? Please.

She was 28? years old. She wasn't all that young and one can train to change magazines in the comfort of one's home. This is not a highly honed skill. In your tone of "murica" this is an "only police and military need guns type argument.

In regards to time. I was reading an interesting study about shooting and time. It basically discussed stopping to shoot the threat versus killing. In the study they discussed the time it takes to pull the trigger versus teh time it takes to recognize the threat has stopped and the time it takes you to stop pulling the trigger. The point was most of the time extra rounds go down range due to mental lag in recognition and then the thought to stop. It was pretty interesting. It does extrapolate to the idea of 2 to 3 seconds of time to recognize the shooting has paused, deciding to attack, and attacking before the shooting starts. I think you vastly over estimate the idea someone could, while being unarmed, take down a shooter. Getting a shot in on target is far more likely.

There was obviously some confusion about which question I was referring to so I'll post it....



It certainly is. I do however think familiarity with the school played a role in her decision but I can't be sure of that.


She was But of course I put my response in the broader view of school shootings. Most are much younger than that and have little experience in handling forearms. Context is important when looking at an overview rather than an isolated event.


But make no mistake, when someone runs out of ammo and has to change magazines that's something you recognize instantly by the visual. Your example is of the shooting pausing not the visual of a gunman obviously running out of ammunition and starting to change a magazine.

Oh that question. I did answer it. It is a straw argument and has no bearing on this. Why do you need 15 rounds magazine? 17 round? 10 round? An arbitrary limit is an arbitrary limit and does no good discussing as it doesn't matter. The Aurora theatre shooting was an exception to the rule that when confronted with force is when shooters stop. In that case he stopped because he drum jammed. Those big drums are more prone to jamming. Magazine size is a distraction.


This strikes me as "sitting on the couch" thinking, not in the middle of being shot at thinking. There's a lot of evidence that speaks to the bodies response to being shot at, and none of it is conducive to speeding up mental process with cognitive function. It speaks to tunnel vision, loss of fine motor skills, memory issues and losing finer reasoning. Force on force training can make a difference, but most people in schools will not have that, especially ones that cannot carry for protection. I think you vastly overestimate what people can do mentally once they are on the receiving end of gun fire, especially when they have nothing better to fight back with than a book or pencil.

So you refuse to say why you would actually need a 30 round magazine. Got it.

People certainly do react differently in certain situations. But you were showing an example of how people reacted when shots paused. Not when you could visually see a person is out of ammunition. I mean speaking of sitting on the couch thinking.

Yes I refuse to pander to questions that have no bearing on the conversation just so you can think it is important.

You have indicated you have a carry permit and carry outside the home. Why?

Gabby Giffords is alive because of a magazine change.

Severely injured yes, but the assailant was tackled during a magazine change.

People overlook that the most critical element associated with a mass shooting event is time. Las Vegas is the obvious example.

Time to fire, time to change weapons, time to change a magazine. Anything that distracts a mass shooter from actively firing is an opportunity to intervene.

I would not mind a requirement to have a double action (requires 2 hands) requirement for a magazine change as well. Slow them down.

I find this a rather humorous response. This is certainly relevant to the discussion. You see as you yourself have shown, you oppose limiting the capacity of ammo that can be held in a magazine. Yet when you ask people why they support the continued sales of weapons such as the AR-15 the most common reasons given are for target shooting and hunting. So it's not me who seem to think these things are important, it's those who support they still be loosed on our nations streets and schools. And I do understand those reasons as it pertains to them remaining legal. While the area I was from in Ohio did not permit the use of rifles in hunting, a friend of mine deer hunted in Kentucky. Rifles were legal to use in deer hunting there. But even then the magazine size was limited to five rounds of ammunition. I have used such weapons to target shoot myself. But having a 30 0r 50 round magazine certainly weren't and aren't needed for that.

So if you have no legitimate reason to have a 30 or 50 round magazine it's okay to just say so. Dancing around the question doesn't actually serve you well.

So yes, understanding why people insist on upholding that magazines of this size remain legal when there is no practical reasoning for it is a legitimate question. But I do understand why you would wish to sidestep it and avoid it like the plague.


I don't need a 30 round magazine for personal protection. If someone thinks they do I suggest they improve their marksmanship before carrying a weapon. People carrying guns who have no or little training is dangerous to us all. I tend to shop and travel in areas I don't need to carry but sometimes that's unavoidable.

This is only obvious no matter the distractions to the contrary.

j/c

I just wanted to thank the quick actions of the Metro Nashville Policemen who responded to this scene. From the time the first 911 call was received until the end of this shooting when the shooter was killed took a total of 14 minutes. When police arrived on the scene there was no hesitation to enter the school and the school was cleared room by room leading them quickly to the second floor and the shooter. Many lives were saved due to their actions.

I see you avoided answering the question asked.

Not at all. I said "I don't need a 30 round magazine for personal protection." I felt that was rather obvious. And so did you.

However, answering a question with a question is an old tactic. After several requests you still haven't answered mine.

The reality of what people are discussing here....

Gabby Giffordx is alive because she did not die after being shot in the head. The shooter also fumbled during the change. In that the shooter had 4 magazines. 2x33 and 2x15. There were 31 casings found so either he changed early and messed up or he used 15 rounders and already made one change.

At VA Tech 32 people died and 17 we're injured using 10 round magazines. That indicates at least 3 charges. Limiting size is a feel good do nothing idea.


I am sure you are not suggesting we rely on small magazines and people fumbling to reduce casualties.

The exception to the rule isn't the rule.

That statement goes both ways.