DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus What a pain in the butt

https://www.businessinsider.com/toyota-bz4x-electric-car-road-trip-charging-time-range-2023-4?amp

I wont be buying an EV until the tech matures. This sounds like a complete pain in the butt. Who wants to plan their life around charging a car?

Well making 500 mile journeys isn't really the target market for EV owners. No idea of how competent the writer is - would seem they have something of a bias. Knowing people who do own EV's, planning and knowing where to charge and when to charge is definitely something they learn and have to spend more time planning/dealing with than a anyone owning a gas vehicle. Not sure the article is really neutral or educational.

Having said that - I have no interest in a EV until their cost to purchase come down, I can easily live with a 250-300 mile range for all but weekend or week long trips to the beach.... although saying that it's only 260 miles to Hilton Head. Less to Seabrook or Folly Beach so maybe distance is less of a factor - maybe a bi-annual drive back to Ohio is really the only drive I'd be truly impacted on.

They chose the worst EV on the market to run their test trip.

You already plan your life around charging all your batteries. But I love me some mad Eve.

The Toyota bZ4X has a reported range of 240 miles, although review tests are getting closer to 220. Now very good.

If I am buying an EV, and intend to use on long trips I wouldn't get one with less than 300+ mile range. That should get you between 6-8 hours of driving, plenty to stop to eat and charge.

I have a buddy that has a Tesla and drove From Tampa to Vegas, he did it in 3 10-12 hour days, planned his route before hand to stop for lunch and dinner for charges an then a hotel. He's done the trip many time in Gas cars, and he said it took a little longer mostly because he had to divert farther to get to chargers, but overall he said it only added an hour or 2 from his normal time.

One of the things EVs worry me with, outside of the issues I've mentioned with charging at home, is traffic on trips. The Baltimore Washington I95 corridor is very unpredictable. The rip to Richmond from here should 3 hours. It's taken 7 hours more than once. Get below DC and NoVa can be as brutal of traffic as anywhere. How do they fare in 4 hours of stop and go? Especially in cold weather.

I'm not anti EV but I am cautious with them.

Most families these days have two vehicles. One mainly used for local trips, errands, to get the kids around and so forth. An EV would work perfectly for such a vehicle. They certainly aren't a fit for everyone and charging stations will be far more available in the ext few years....

Leading the Charge: Walmart Announces Plan To Expand Electric Vehicle Charging Network

Walmart plans to install new electric vehicle (EV) fast-charging stations at thousands of Walmart and Sam’s Club locations across the country

https://corporate.walmart.com/newsr...expand-electric-vehicle-charging-network

What Does the Infrastructure Bill Mean for EV Charging?

The bill includes $7.5 billion to help accelerate EV adoption and build a nationwide network of EV charging stations that will increase charging availability and promote long-distance travel. This funding will include the National Electric Vehicle Formula Program, which is established to provide states with $5 billion to strategically deploy EV charging infrastructure over five years.

https://www.evconnect.com/blog/what-does-the-infrastructure-bill-mean-for-ev-charging

All new technology which faces skepticism becomes more available over time. Concerns become addressed just as we see with more and more charging stations becoming available. Just we see quick charges for EV batteries now. It's a new technology which is becoming better and better all the time. If someone is looking for a "one size fits all" vehicle I can certainly understand their hesitation. But even that is becoming less and less of an issue over time.

I wont be buying one until:
1) It can go 300 miles on a charge regardless of whether I am running the AC/heat
2) It takes less than 15 minutes to charge
3) Charging stations are more readily available. Even in rural areas. I have to drive through the middle of nowhere to go on any road trips.
4) It needs to not die if I am sitting in a traffic jam for an hour.

Basically, it needs to be as practical as a gas car. I would prefer a hybrid.

Those conditions will prob be met sooner than you might think.

We've already passed the tipping point for this tech trend, and we're not going to go backwards. Now, market forces will take over, and you'll see exponential growth the same way we did with internal combustion 100 years ago, and computer tech 50 years ago at the dawn of the semiconductor era. (When I was in HS, Texas Instruments calculators were the modern-day game-changer. Now, smart phones have more computing capacity than the room full of fridge-sized NASA computers that got us to the moon & back).

Two big reasons for my bold predix just happened in the last few months: the CHIPS and Science Act, and the Inflation Reduction Act. Those two new laws are already influencing the day-to-day growth of both national infrastructure and the supporting tech that will fuel the new usages. End result: cars will quickly get better, more efficient and cheaper because market competition always works that way. The speed at which the market propels growth in the private sector will necessitate analogous growth in infrastructure, so gov't will have to keep up. (Win/win for us consumers)

Already, the Big 3 Detroit makers are committing to re-tooling their fleets to embrace E-tech, with plans to go full-on electric within the next decade.

A couple years back, we had this same EV discussion, wherein I laid out a basic plan for establishing infrastructure. My approach was simple:
STEP ONE: retrofit every turnpike comfort center to include the same number of fast-charging stations as gasoline pumps.
STEP TWO: install fast-charging charging stations at all Interstate rest areas.
STEP THREE: provide incentives for local municipalities and their private energy suppliers to extend the infrastructure to exurb and rural communities. In other words, infiltrate/piggyback the existing infrastructure, and hit the ground running. We then only have to graft new tech onto an already-existing grid, not needing to re-invent the wheel.

_________________________

I've been all over this since the days when I was branded a 'tree-hugger' at my most previous job- more than 40 years ago.

The things I predicted back then are now coming to pass- in spades. Back then, I was a lowly union-backed hourly employee at our local oil refinery, when top SOHIO brass from CLE sent out a corporate-wide, multi-topic questionnaire. On it, we dirty, grime-covered oilers were asked: "What would you like to see from our company, moving forward?" I knew what they wanted: they wanted to know how hourly employees' working conditions could be changed to make things better. I took a totally different approach. I still remember what I told them, when I was a 22 year-old OM&S ('Oil Movement and Storage') "Pumper":

"I want to see Standard Oil diversify its R&D to employ solar, nuclear, and geothermal energy. I want to see this company become 'Standard Energy,' instead of just 'Standard Oil.' "

Crickets.
That was back in 1979.

They didn't listen to me back then, and I don't really expect most folks to hear to me even now.
After almost a half-century of being ignored, I'm pretty much resigned to it.

But here we are.

Clemdawg's predix:
I'm not the smartest mf in the world. I'm not even the smartest mf on this tiny little corner of the internet. But I am old. Old enough to have been witness to 4 generations of Human Behavior Patterns. And I'm telling us all: Elec car tech is gonna overwhelm America's heel-draggers, simply because they are heel-draggers... and not in-tune with how fast this (r)evolution is happening.

___________________________

I'm OK with The New, so long as I can still buy/restore/drive the first car I ever owned outright, and drive her on the same roads that support a majority of electric vehicles in the future.
I'm OK with being that gray-haired Dinosaur who gets the looks on the roads, for as long as it's legal. And yes, I'll consent to drive her with a current-gen catalytic converter, even though cats were a huge political wedge issue of the times. And I'll rider her in public for as long as she+me be legal.

Because no modern electric car is ever gonna look, feel, sound, respond to my touch, or smell like My Girl.
I will ride her until the law takes her away from me.





just sayin',
Clemdawg.

I just bought a Honda Accord Hybrid, sport trim. I only have 3100 miles on it, so the numbers are limited, but a full tank registers 560 miles of range. So far I seem to be averaging 45MPG combined driving. I am pretty happy with those numbers. On some in town trips to the store, I have shown 50MPG if I really try to feather the gas to make it run on electric as much as possible.

Damn! I never thought I'd see the day: Peen's becoming a tree-huggin' Hyper-miler!







p.s I've been a Honda fanboy since our first '82 Accord Hatchback.

'82 Accord Hatch
'84 Prelude
'86 Accord sedan (the wedge-shaped model with the pop-up headlights)
'94 Acura Integra (one super-fun car to drive- the first with Honda's V-TEC platform)
'02 CR-V (great work car... I can haul the entire string 4tet and all our gear to the gig in comfort)
'09 Fit (Mom's runabout)
'19 CR-V (to replace the '02, which I drove into the grave).

They run like a top, they last forever, and they give you no drama for years.

And vintage Civics and Integras are prime candidates for street mods.

Welcome to the fam, Old-Timer.

We had an Accord some years ago. My wife drove it for the most part. You don't have to sell me on Accords. We had that one maybe 8 years before giving it to one of our children who needed a 2nd car at the time. We were ready to get another car anyway so I wasn't concerned with any trade value we might have gotten. We then went with a Camry, which we also had before. We went with the Camry because it was the color and had the options my wife wanted. Since we had given away her car, we needed one and didn't have time to search multiple dealers or order one. It was lets go buy a car today. Not tomorrow or next week. Today.

LOL...not quite a tree hugger, but I had been talking about wanting one on various threads in here for a few months. I have always been practical. If you can get a good sized car with the options we wanted, was under the $40,000 mark( it made it by a few hunderd) and it gives you around 15MPG better milage, heck, it only makes sense. Write the check and drive it home.

I agree with Clem, that this will start to progress quickly, as now there is a market, and the first to come up with advancements and innovation will profit well, and that motivates companies to invest in research and development.

Better get used to it, it's the way of the future.

Look at the advancements in EV's since we saw one put out by GM in the 90's. Longer ranges, more charging stations. It will continue get better and easier and cheaper to buy and operate an EV.

My wife and I want a new EV.. And will buy one when it's time to buy a new car next. My wife will drive it. She doesn't go on long trips.. She's a local type of driver.. The store, the Bank, and other shopping adventures. But we will continue, at least for the foreseeable future, to have on gas powered vehicle.. or maybe a hybrid.

Starting tomorrow, only six EVs will still qualify for a $7,500 federal tax credit
This is after revised guidelines were announced in March.

Lawrence Bonk·Contributing Reporter
Mon, April 17, 2023 at 2:53 PM EDT·2 min read

David Dee Delgado / reuters

The IRS released a list of electric vehicles that still qualify for the full $7,500 federal tax credit after strict new guidelines, announced back in March, officially go into effect on April 18th. The list is very short, as just six EVs now qualify under the new terms. The updated rules pertain to EV batteries and cut out China as an approved trading partner, so we knew the vehicle list would shrink, as most electric vehicles use batteries manufactured in China or by Chinese companies.

If you want to get that full tax credit, choose from the Cadillac Lyriq, Chevy Bolt, Chevy Bolt EUV, some Tesla Model 3 versions, some Tesla Model Y versions and Ford F-150 Lightning. Many EVs lose the full credit moving forward, like the Nissan Leaf and Volkswagen ID.4. So check the full list before zeroing in on your next car purchase. $7,500 is nothing to sneeze at.

EVs shunted out of the exclusive full tax-credit club may still qualify for a half credit of $3,750, so long as they meet certain requirements. Three PHEVs also qualify for the half credit and three more qualify for the full tax credit, including models manufactured by Ford, Lincoln, Chrysler and Jeep. These credits are not about excluding hybrid technology and are all about making sure components are sourced properly.

Here's how that breaks down. Battery components that are 50 percent made or assembled in the USA qualify for the first half of $3,750 and if the company sources at least 40 percent of critical minerals from the US or free trade partners, the second $3,750 kicks in. If a company meets one or the other standard, the vehicle gets a half credit.

While the list winnowing down to just six vehicles makes for a good headline, it should beef up as automobile manufacturers make changes to meet the rules. New EVs that meet the component sourcing standards will get added to the list and other vehicles will get re-added as manufacturers open new factories in the US and other approved countries. New trade deals could also impact the list of approved vehicles as time marches forward. However, these rules grow stricter over time. Batteries must be completely made in North America by 2029 to continue to stay on the IRS’s good side and get that full $7,500 credit.



https://finance.yahoo.com/news/star...a-7500-federal-tax-credit-185304414.html

From a separate article. Didn't feel the need to to repaste the whole article because essentially the same but thought this might be added info someone would like to see

Notable vehicles receiving half the credit include the Ford Mustang Mach-E and Escape PHEV, Jeep Grand Cherokee and Wrangler PHEVs, and the Tesla Model 3 RWD. If partial credits are included, a total of 17 different nameplates qualify for the full or partial credit.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/only...or-the-full-ev-tax-credit-201216179.html

No doubt electric will supplant internal combustion at some point. As has been pointed out, that won't happen to the fullest degree until the vehicles can compete price wise and not be like big golf carts, and the range and charging issues can be solved.

People need to be able to travel 500-700 miles a day and need to recharge in minutes rather than hours. I still don't see why a small gasoline engine like a small motorcycle engine of some sort couldn't be used to keep a charge in the electric engine. Those things can run for 3-4 hours on a small amount of gas, and they probably wouldn't have to run non-stop.

Maybe the idea of eliminating gasoline is unrealistic. If you could drive 1000 miles and only use say 8 gallons of gas, I think that would be good enough to reduce emissions.

My attitude is as long as there are humans, we are going to pollute the planet one way or the other. If we eliminate gasoline, then the dead batteries are going to be a problem. Kind of a Ying Yang type deal.

I have been hearing that for two years, yet not a single charging station anywhere near me. I will also have to invest in a new charger for level 2 charging, also a new breaker box, and an electrician to wire it up and install it. As I have been saying for years I will buy one once the prices drop, and their are charging stations,and the range increases, but I won't buy one till then. I am looking to get a used Mazda 6 in a few years, then will upgrade that to electric in about 8 to 10 years if I am still alive.

Your post got me thinking (again, I've checked before)... there has to be requirements in the code for new homes and apartments, right?

This is refreshing. Always happy to see a little common sense built into the mix.



New Building Code Standards Will Require Wiring for EVSE

Your next home will probably be able to charge your car. As electric vehicle sales soar, local governments require builders to include EVSE-ready infrastructure in their new builds.

Updated U.S. building codes are about to change drastically as soon as early 2021. Quartz reports that homes that typically feature one or two 240-volt plugs will now be ready to install Level 2 chargers. All homes will be required to be “EV ready”, with the ability to charge electric vehicles built into building blueprints.

Building Codes
The International Code Council (ICC) creates building safety standards and codes builders follow. Their new codes indicate “New construction shall facilitate future installation and use of Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE) in accordance with the National Electrical Code (NFPA 70).” These new codes are applicable to private homes, multi-family residences, condos, and apartment buildings.

The ICC is a non-profit trade association and its codes are embraced by governmental bodies, construction companies, and all 50 states, though states generally take up to six months to approve voluntary changes.

What is “EV-Ready?”
“EV-Ready” can have several different meanings. According to Quartz, there are three different EVSE-ready building codes currently in use. They include:

1) EV-Capable. This means there is electric panel capacity, a dedicated branch circuit, and continuous raceway from the panel to the intended location of the EVSE. This is definitely the most popular building code in regard to EVSE, and is the easiest and least expensive to complete. It just means EVSE can be installed without re-wiring.

2) EVSE-Ready Outlet. This code means the raceway with conduit ends in a 240 volt outlet, ready to plug a Level 2 charger into. 10% of parking in Boulder, Colorado, is coded EVSE-Ready Outlet. This code is about to become required.

3) EVSE-Installed. The final building code is rarest. Most buildings are not yet required to already have a Level 2 charger installed in them. 5-10% of parking in Palo Alto, California, is coded EVSE-installed.

While private homeowners will still need to install their own EVSE for now, they will have more 240 volt plugs than ever before to support installation of Level 2 chargers. Apartment and condo garages meanwhile are more than EVSE ready- the EVSE will already be installed when residents move in.

Having EVSE already installed, or being EV-ready, can save residents and building owners a bundle. According to the Southwest Energy Efficiency Project (SWEEP), building codes present a low-cost, energy-efficient way to prepare for electric cars. A study conducted by SWEEP in San Francisco compared the cost of creating a parking lot with ten spots, 2 of them for EVs vs. retrofitting an old parking lot to the same specs. The price of the new lot starting from scratch was $920, while the retrofit was a whopping $3,550.

According to Slashgear, “The proposed code will allow current and future EV-owners to avoid the cost of electrical equipment upgrades, demolition, and permitting for future retrofits,” the ICC suggests.”

If EVs are the car of the future, clearly planning ahead pays. With 323 million EVs expected on the road by 2040, it seems that including EVSE in wiring blueprints before a building, home, or parking lot is created, will end up becoming a significant future savings.

The HQ 100
Blink’s HQ 100 basic Level 2 charger is an inexpensive solution to EVSE requirements. The Blink HQ 100 is the ideal EV home charging station that charges 4x faster than the cord that comes with an EV. It features a delayed start to optimize residential charging rates, providing a dependable charging experience at an unprecedented value. For residential buildings, the HQ 100 makes an easy immediate install. For private homeowners, it’s an inexpensive way to charge an EV using newly installed 240 volt plugs without having an electrician update wiring.

Whether you own a rental property, are just moving into your own home, or are preparing to sell it, there’s no time like the present to save money and prepare for homes that will soon be required to be “EV-Ready.”

https://blinkcharging.com/new-building-code-standards-will-require-wiring-for-evse/?locale=en

I also see there is a 30% tax credit to offset the cost of hardware and installation in your own home, up to $1,000.

There's still hope, GM. Besides, we all know that anything that tries to kill you is only going to die tryin'!

I'm definitely not buying an EV anytime soon. Not until the technology matures some more and fits my needs. About half my driving is longer distance trips outside a range of an EV. Remote areas with no charging stations. Buying an EV for a second car would save me about $1k a year on gas. That savings gets wiped out by insurance and taxes. I'll probably buy another gas car in the next year or so and that will get me into the 2030s. Hopefully everything is good by then.

Interesting, I have like 7 within 10 miles of me.

There are charging stations in Girard and New Middletown. Both are slow

I think the main point is as of now, you can find them, but you have to look for them.

In time, existing gas stations will begin to convert, but only when the technology in batteries and chargers is such that you can charge the battery in a similar amount of time it takes to fill a tank with gasoline. A place couldn't stay in business if they had to leave cars parked for 3 hours while charging unless they charged a large sum of money for the charge. Those corner lots are expensive, and the business needs the volume to be able to pay the bills. Charging stations have to be able to pay for themselves as well as produce a profit before you see them being installed in mass.

Charge time is going to be the key factor in all of this. I am not sure they will be able to extend the working life of the battery a whole lot.

OH joy Level one chargers. Only 20+ hours to charge your car while you sleep in it lol.

Where by the way are the ones in New Middleton and Girard? I didn't find them on a google search?

In the end it is what the socialists want. They don't want a free movement of people. All of this crap has nothing to do with the environment.

And people wonder what's wrong with America. One thing is people think everything is some socialist/communist conspiracy.

One thing people think is everything is some Trumpian conspiracy theory.

Actually he isn't smart enough to carry out a conspiracy. That's why there are so many criminal investigations being conducted as of now. He does it in plain sight. All you have to do is quote him.

I'm probably out of yarn for the day now.

I'll help you out here.....

“The people of Georgia are angry, the people in the country are angry,” Trump said. “And there’s nothing wrong with saying, you know, um, that you’ve recalculated.”

“The people of Georgia are angry, the people in the country are angry,” Trump said. “And there’s nothing wrong with saying, you know, um, that you’ve recalculated.”

Raffensperger; “Well, Mr President, the challenge that you have is, the data you have is wrong.”

Trump said: “So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. Because we won the state.”

“You know what they did and you’re not reporting it,” Trump said. “You know, that’s a criminal offence. And you know, you can’t let that happen. That’s a big risk to you and to Ryan [Germany], your lawyer. That’s a big risk.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...raffensperger-call-biden-washington-post

Like that.

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Did I post in the wrong thread...or what..?

I thought this thread was about was about Electric Vehicles...

J/C

I feel the best option at present time is the Hybrid models. Although I’m seeing a lot of Teslas here. I also believe by the mid 2030’s every automaker will be strictly hybrid and electric. No all gas powered new vehicles.

jc

Another thing that needs to change: the current builder of ev batteries is China. That gives them way too much power over us. The usa needs to start producing these.

Manufacturing in the US in general needs to make a huge comeback in every sector.

Something we can agree on.

Those are the things to focus on.