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Nearly 2,000 children were sexually abused in the Illinois Catholic Church

A new report identifies nearly 500 clergy members in Illinois who sexually abused children.

Illinois Attorney General Kwame Raoul announced Tuesday that the state has corroborated more than 1,900 victims’ child sex abuse claims against Catholic clergy in Illinois. The cases go back to 1950 and feature hundreds of abusers who were not previously reported.

The church has been embroiled in child sex abuse scandals for more than two decades that encompass hundreds of thousands of victims around the globe, from Australia to Chile.

The Illinois findings are the latest from several major US investigations in recent years showing that such abuse and church officials’ cover-ups were widespread, making the case that the clergy is incapable of bringing perpetrators among their own ranks to account. Though much of this abuse was initially dismissed by church leaders, mounting evidence — that now includes the Illinois investigation — has made victims impossible to ignore.

A 696-page report from the state attorney general’s office found a total of 494 abusers across Illinois’s six Catholic dioceses, many of whom were knowingly and routinely transferred between parishes while church officials remained silent. The report says that the investigation prompted the dioceses to publicly list 231 substantiated child sex abusers in addition to those it had already disclosed and that state officials uncovered another 149 who were never identified by the dioceses.

The report relies on interviews, hotline messages, emails, and letters from more than 600 confidential sources, many of whom described experiencing long-term consequences resulting from the abuse, including mental health issues, addiction, and suicidal ideation.

Cardinal Blase J. Cupich, archbishop of Chicago, said in a video statement, “On behalf of the archdiocese, I apologize to all who have been harmed by the failure to prevent and properly respond to child sexual abuse by clerics. Survivors will forever be in our prayers, and we have devoted ourselves to rooting out this problem and providing healing to victims.”

David Clohessy, former national director of Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests (SNAP), said the report was an important step forward that made dozens of recommendations to bishops on commonsense measures they can take to prevent further abuse, but argued there is “little if any sign that they care enough to make those improvements.”

Those recommendations include ensuring investigators have no role in providing survivor support, that the dioceses provide guides on how to report and make it easy to do so anonymously, and that all forms of retaliation, intimidation, coercion, or adverse action be explicitly prohibited.

Clohessy noted that the report made no announcement of criminal charges against any Catholic officials who covered up child sex abuse or recommendations for additional legislative remedies, which could include strengthening RICO statutes — criminal laws aimed at combating organized crime — under which they could be held accountable.

“That is where we believe real change happens,” Clohessy said. “There have been precious few charges against anybody who ignored or concealed. It’s very frustrating to see law enforcement officials say there were thousands of crimes, hundreds of predators, hundreds of enablers — but no one gets charged.”

Under current Illinois law, clergy and other church staff, including voluntary child care workers, are already required to report suspected child abuse as “mandatory reporters.” The state also removed the statute of limitations for prosecuting child sexual abuse in 2017. But there are other states where clergy are not mandatory reporters and that impose a statute of limitations on such claims.
The broader reckoning in the Catholic Church on sex abuse

The Boston Globe’s seminal 2002 investigation of five local priests who were later convicted and sentenced to prison for sexually abusing children sparked an international reckoning on the church’s history of protecting predators in the clergy. In the decades since, there have been further investigations into the national scope of the abuse, but they often seem to only scratch the surface.

In 2018, then-Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan wrote a report finding the Catholic Church in Illinois had withheld the names of at least 500 priests accused of sexually abusing children. The church had only reported cases to law enforcement that it believed to be credible, but Madigan contended that it should have come forth with every accusation.

That year, a Pennsylvania grand jury also named 300 priests who had sexually abused more than 1,000 children over 70 years. Their report indicated that there were likely thousands more victims whose records had been lost over the years or who feared coming forward.

More than a dozen other states have since opened broad investigations of clergy accused of sexual abuse. That includes an ongoing investigation in Maryland, which has already alleged that clergy sexually abused more than 600 children between the 1940s and 2002.

In one of the most high-profile such scandals of recent years, Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick, the former archbishop of Washington, was defrocked after being accused of sexually abusing children as well as young priests and seminarians. He is one of the highest-ranking Catholic Church officials to date to resign over sex abuse allegations.

The Illinois investigation comes on the heels of a decision by Pope Francis in March to update and expand a 2019 church law that lays out procedures to investigate senior religious leaders. He confirmed that adults can also be victims of abuse and that lay church leaders, not just those who are ordained, can also be investigated under the church law.

But given that Francis has admitted that he is “part of the problem” because he initially dismissed a particularly shocking sex abuse scandal in Chile that eventually prompted every bishop in the country to resign, it’s hard to see how the church can effectively self-police. And that has led to continuing efforts by law enforcement in places like Illinois to uncover the extent of the church’s abuse.

https://www.vox.com/2023/5/24/23736...rqJGDAg19WhE8_vmR9CYbz9IbzIuFLbK-jnrZoF4

US Southern Baptist churches facing ‘apocalypse’ over sexual abuse scandal
This article is more than 11 months old

A report named hundreds of church leaders accused or found guilty of abusing children and says survivors were mistreated

America’s largest Protestant and second-largest Christian denomination is being roiled by a sexual abuse scandal that casts a harsh light on one of the most politically powerful religious groups in the country as well as renewing a focus on its racist past.

The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) is a collection of loosely affiliated member churches, boasting just under 15 million members, and is dominated by white members, who are usually deeply socially conservative. The convention has often been a powerful tool for rightwing organizing in recent years, especially on issues around abortion.

But the SBC is now so mired in scandal that one recent former top official said it faced a “Southern Baptist apocalypse”.

The issue at hand is the release by the SBC of a 205-page document naming hundreds of Baptist leaders and members accused or found guilty of sexual abuse of children. The list, which includes 700 entries on cases between 2000 and 2019, was released after a bombshell third-party investigation by Guidepost Solutions said the convention’s leaders in its executive committee failed the public and its community by mishandling sexual abuse cases and mistreating victims and survivors.

SBC leaders Rolland Slade and Willie McLaurin issued a statement saying the list “reminds us of the devastation and destruction brought about by sexual abuse. Our prayer is that the survivors of these heinous acts find hope and healing, and that churches will utilize this list proactively to protect and care for the most vulnerable among us.”

The initial report was released after a seven-month investigation that revealed 380 leaders and volunteers in the SBC have faced public accusations of sexual abuse. It said that the SBC’s general counsel and spokesman had kept their own private list of abusive ministers and that leaders of SBC’s executive committee had focused for decades on trying to protect the SBC from liability for abuse in local churches.

“In service of this goal, survivors and others who reported abuse were ignored, disbelieved, or met with the constant refrain that the SBC could take no action due to its polity regarding church autonomy – even if it meant that convicted molesters continued in ministry with no notice or warning to their current church or congregation,” investigators wrote.

Among those named was Johnny Hunt, a Georgia-based pastor and former SBC president, who has been accused of sexually assaulting another pastor’s wife during a beach vacation in 2010.

Hunt, who resigned last month as senior vice-president of evangelism and leadership at SBC’s domestic missions agency, has denied he assaulted the woman but admitted on social media to a “personal sin” and called it “a brief, but improper encounter”.

Others named were a former SBC vice-president who was credibly accused of sexually abusing a 14-year-old; a former president who delayed reporting child sexual abuse allegations out of “heartfelt concern” for the accused; and another who failed to report allegations of abuse against young boys.

But the publication of the report and the subsequent list of names has led to pushback within the organization – despite the horrific details contained within it. “I am terrified that we are breaching our longstanding position of being a voluntary association of independent churches, when we start telling churches that they should do this or do that to protect children or women,” said Joe Knott, a North Carolina attorney and longtime committee member.

But some say that the report about decades of sexual abuse cover-up, is an opportunity for the SBC to look more closely at its roots in white evangelicalism, including how it was founded in 1845 to protect the institution of slavery.

A study of that inception, White Evangelical Racism, published last year, studied the roots of the SBC in the south. According to author Anthea Butler, the SBC used scripture to deny the vote to emancipated Blacks during Reconstruction and to later side with racist segregationists. In more recent times the SBC has also taken flak for debating critical race theory, an academic discipline that studies institutional racism in US laws and society.

“The two biggest crises in the SBC are sex abuse and debates over critical race theory, and the two are very much related,” said Sara Moslener, director of the After Purity Project at Central Michigan University. “So much of white racial identity is about obscuring the reality of the racist history of United States and to obscure the issue of sexual assault in evangelical churches.”

For both to be revealed, Moslener says, would be to undermine the status quo in the SBC, theologically and nationally, for white evangelicalism. “Since the report came out, people have been talking about it as an ‘apocalypse’, but an apocalypse can mean both destruction and reveal.”

An article in the New Republic published this month went further, suggesting that the SBC crusade against “critical race theory”, while obscuring sexual abuse within its own ranks, “is further suggestive that racial terror is still very much at work within the organization”.

In 2019, the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Birmingham, Alabama, moved to resolve that “critical race theory and intersectionality should only be employed as analytical tools subordinate to Scripture – not as transcendent ideological frameworks”. The convention further resolved that “the gospel of Jesus Christ alone grants the power to change people and society”.

That statement on race caused several Black pastors to break with the SBC and triggered high-level meetings about whether the Black evangelical church has a place in the convention whose leadership had in some cases come out in support of Donald Trump.

According to Pew Research, Black evangelicals made up about 14% of all African American Christians, while 85% of Americans who identify as Southern Baptist are white.

In a subsequent statement, SBC presidents said they recognized the “reality of racism on both the personal and systemic or structural level” but still see critical race theory as incompatible with Baptist teaching.

The SBC has been tracking right since the 1970s when a backlash to desegregation – Nixon’s “Southern Strategy” – was hitched on an anti-abortion sentiment to which the convention had previously been relatively neutral. That effectively led to the rise of the religious right in the US – a phenomenon that still has huge repercussions today especially as America looks set to lose federally guaranteed abortion rights.

“It just so happened that abortion was the new issue and the one that worked very effectively to create a voting bloc that was so powerful that a white southern evangelical president Jimmy Carter lost to Ronald Reagan because white evangelicals came to see Reagan as reflecting their values more than one of their own,” said Moslener.

Carter ultimately left the Baptist church over its refusal to ordain women but the issue cemented the relationship between white evangelicals and the Republican party.

Even if the SBC deals with its sexual assault problem, Moslener says, and comes out to say we honor women and will give them equal roles of authority, “Even if they did that, and we see places where evangelical feminism is emerging from the shadows, they still haven’t dealt with the legacy of racism in the church. They’re still only getting to a piece of it.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/12/southern-baptist-church-sexual-abuse-scandal

Maybe QAnon should have been focusing on the Southern Baptist and Catholic churches instead of some Pizza place in Washington D.C.

As a Catholic, thanks for showing it ain't ONE religion or organization which has sex scandal problems- it is tragic at every level this occurs- EVERY organization has these problems- hold all responsible. JMHO, kind hearted, religious folks are not strong on accountability---too much forgiveness and it won't happen again.

As an example of problems exist in any organization- look at Papa Joe at Penn State University- he couldn't believe an adult coach could be raping his football players- yet, it happened....to football players-- the world is sick in lots of ways and parents/ adults must be on guard.

While it's very true that you have good and bad in all walks of life, be that in or out of religion, what I find most disturbing in all of this is the reaction by top officials within that Catholic church that did not actually engage in the sexual abuse. They decided that is the best interest of their religion the answer to the problem was to move these priests from parish to parish in order to hide what they had done to those children. To purposefully create a situation where more and more children were sexually abused in every location those priests were moved to. They sacrificed the innocence of thousands of more children by ignoring the problem when they could have addressed the situation in the first place. The top officials in the Catholic church are complicit in those children being sexually abused in every location they moved these priest to after the initial allegations occurred. That's not an issue with certain individuals. That's s systemic problem withing the Catholic church hierarchy. They put the power and reputation of their religion over the welfare of thousands of children. That is something nobody should be trying to excuse.

And now how they handle a priest's treatment of women.And it only took 30 years......

Jesuits expel prominent priest after allegations of sexual, spiritual and psychological abuse

ROME (AP) — Pope Francis’ religious order said Thursday it has expelled a prominent Slovenian priest from the Jesuit community following allegations of sexual, spiritual and psychological abuses against adult women.

A statement from the Jesuits, obtained by The Associated Press on Thursday, said the Rev. Marko Ivan Rupnik was dismissed from the Jesuit order by decree on June 9 “due to stubborn refusal to observe the vow of obedience.”

Rupnik is one of the most celebrated religious artists in the Catholic Church, whose mosaics decorate churches and basilicas around the world, including at the Vatican.

Late last year, the Jesuits acknowledged he had been accused by several women of sexual, spiritual and psychological abuses over a 30-year period. But he had largely escaped punishment, apparently thanks in part to his exalted status in the church and at the Vatican, where even Francis’ role in the case came into question.

The Jesuit statement said Rupnik has 30 days to appeal the expulsion order. He remains a priest, just not a Jesuit priest, and has no authority to celebrate any sacraments publicly. He could eventually join a diocese, but such a process would take years and require a bishop to agree to take him in.

The Rupnik scandal exploded in December when Italian blogs and websites reported that consecrated women had complained for years about abuse by him, only to have their claims discredited or covered up by Rupnik’s superiors. The case posed a problem for the Vatican and the Jesuits because of suspicions that the charismatic priest received preferential treatment by the Holy See, where a Jesuit pope reigns and Jesuit priests are in top positions at the sex abuse office.

After the allegations erupted, the Jesuits reluctantly admitted Rupnik had been declared excommunicated in 2020 for having committed one of the gravest crimes in church law — using the confessional to absolve a woman with whom he had engaged in sexual activity — but had repented and had the sanction quickly removed.

The next year, Rupnik was accused by nine women of having sexually, psychologically and spiritually abused them in the 1990s at a community he co-founded in Slovenia. Even though the Jesuits recommended a church trial, the Vatican’s sex abuse office refused to waive the statute of limitations and declared the crimes too old to prosecute.

That outcome underscored how the Catholic hierarchy routinely refuses to consider spiritual and sexual abuse of adult women as a crime that must be punished, but rather a mere lapse of priestly chastity that can be forgiven, without considering the trauma it causes victims.

After the scandal, the Jesuits invited anyone with other claims against Rupnik to come forward, and 15 people did.

The Jesuits then asked Rupnik to respond, but he refused, according to the statement Thursday.

“Thus, we forced Father Marko Rupnik to change communities and accept a new mission in which we offered him one last chance as a Jesuit to come to terms with his past and to give a clear signal to the many aggrieved people who were testifying against him to enter a path of truth,” the statement said. “Faced with Marko Rupnik’s repeated refusal to obey this mandate, we were unfortunately left with only one solution: resignation from the Society of Jesus.”

Francis’ role in the Rupnik case also came into question, given the unusually quick turnaround in which he had been declared excommunicated and then had the penalty removed — a period of less than a month — as well as the Vatican’s refusal to waive the statute of limitations when the second set of allegations were lodged.

In a Jan. 24 interview with The Associated Press, Francis denied he had any role in the handling of Rupnik’s case, other than to intervene procedurally to keep the second set of accusations from the nine women with the same tribunal that had heard the first.

He added that he was shocked by the allegations against Rupnik, with whom he had reportedly been close.

“For me, it was a surprise, really. This, a person, an artist of this level — for me was a big surprise, and a wound,” Francis told AP.

While the Jesuits had barred Rupnik from public preaching or engaging in artistic activity earlier this year, his expulsion from the order ostensibly leaves him free to do as he wants, since he now reports to no religious superior.

https://apnews.com/article/pope-vat...PuYZ1UBU1-XiY8Dzy_LkJqXn6i7wH5rlDTRIYQtE

Yes, your post highlights the bad.....justly, however here is a little balance. Wiki- The Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of health care services in the world.[1] It has around 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, and 5,500 hospitals, with 65 percent of them located in developing countries.[2] In 2010, the Church's Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Health Care Workers said that the Church manages 26% of the world's health care facilities.

The VAST majority of Catholic Priests and Sisters are honorable, holy people serving their countries and the world. Yes, there are bad apples everywhere---and they are finally being held accountable.

Those who wish to claim there is no God....please answer the who, what, where, when, why, and how presented by the Shroud ofhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K91jWtBTOFo Turin....check this post out....it's all fake...NOT.

The shroud is a hoax. There is no GOD, Jesus, nor Holy Spirit. There may be a a higher force in some sort of physics law we don’t understand yet, but still no evidence of GOD. Karma, it’s real, you can see it and feel it. Ghosts might even be some kind of real phenomena. Lots of people think they see them. Evolution has strong evidence of being real. Religion in general has NONE. Just faith that the invisible friend in the sky is real… I have no faith in that ish.

Lolz.

So you are convinced there is a god?

Yes.

I am.

Yes I am. He is a good God that loves us.

Evolution is fact. It is on going and around us today on display.

The Sherpa's are an example. They have over time evolved to a live in an altitude with less oxygen.

The indigenous people who live in the tundra above the arctic circle have evolved to live in that climate by adding an extra layer of fat under their skin. Their eyes lids have extra fat and are narrow to handle wind and sun glare.
The epicanthic fold is often associated with greater levels of fat deposition around the eyeball. The adipose tissue is thought to provide greater insulation for the eye and sinuses from the effects of cold, especially from freezing winds, and to represent an adaptation to cold climates.

Hummingbirds developed long beaks and tongues to eat pollen from long narrow flowers.

Recent discoveries https://answersingenesis.org/human-evolution/did-homo-naledi-create-art-and-start-fires/
show a history of other species of homo primates that were here before modern homo sapiens.

There is no disputing evolution.

Yet in remains a theory!!! It is very much disputed!!!!

Disputed by people who can’t get over stone age superstitions… Religion is highly disputed. Far more than evolution.

It won't be disputed forever though. Every knee will bow! Question is do you bow before or after you die?

Evolution is not theory. There is scientific fact to prove it.

I have a degree in evolutionary anthropology. There is indisputable fossil evidence.

Religion is belief. It is not science. I do question other's beliefs. That is a personal matter and people are entitled to believe what they choose to believe.
People can believe that the earth is flat. It is a fact that is round.

Evolution is scientific fact. There is proof.

https://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-family-tree

This is why I don’t mess with religion, especially the big 3 (Christianity, Islam, Judaism). The body count alone is tragic, but then you add in the abuse and other nonsense that goes on, and I just have to stay away from it.

"Mistake, - I do not question others beliefs."

They are finally being held accountable because lawsuits were filed which brought those facts to light and in the end forced the Catholic Church to address it and not until then. Nobody said there aren't some great people in the Catholic Church. There most certainly are. I will reiterate that this isn't just about "some priests and what they did" or some "bad apples". Top officials in the Catholic Church made the decision to hide what those priests were doing by moving them around to different parishes to help cover up and hide their sexual abuse of children. It was a systemic problem including higher ups who allowed these deviant priests to continue to sexually abuse children.

Now if you wish to try and mitigate that by saying, "Yeah but look at the good things they do" then have at it.

Fear mongering with BS. Call when you lay eyes on GOD, until then, stop talking to me about this ish. And stop threatening people with hell or whatever point you are trying to make pulpit pounder.

I try not to go after the religious because I usually feel the same. Believe whatever you want to believe. BUT I draw a line at trying to bring it into government or schools. It belongs in church and in your home, it has no place in public beyond that unless all beliefs are represented. You want the Ten Commandments in your school? Then I want a spaghetti monster statue there too.

Christians, especially on the far right, need to learn that those beliefs only apply to those who accept that jibber is and to stop trying to push it on others against there will. This is why we now have to fix abortion rights. This is why we have GOPers taking over school boards and destroying education, hating on Trans kids for no damn reason. Maybe those Christians should pray for the rapture to take them away from all the lgbtq lifestyles IN THEIR FACE… They can’t watch a TV show that has gay in it. They can’t buy from store selling gay gear. They are worried books will make their kids gay. Mass homophobia and pure hate is the only problem I see. Did Jesus teach that in a memo I missed? Frauds and fascists.

You have stated reasons I why I keep my faith separate from organized religion. Those are my own personal beliefs and beliefs I feel I have no right to try and impose on the rest of our society. Jesus never told me to love my neighbor as myself, "unless they were gay, or trans." Or to rail against people that are different than myself. I have no idea what book some of these people are reading.

Absolutely, with all the NON-believers- ya didn't say you had courage to watch the video I posted. Your time is to valuable- got it. The Shroud isn't a fake- the British guys who got all the press stating it was a fake on medieval linen jumped on ONE wacky item----the Shroud is the most scientifically tested item in history--yet NO scientist has been able to create/duplicated it. It, the Shroud is EXACTLY like the Bible mentions it. Plus, the human blood on Shroud matches the blood on Sudarium in Oviedo, Spain. All the facts, pollen in linen, the dirt fragments from Jerusalem limestone, on and on....and the Jewish photographer-Barrie Schwortz - was positive he'd take his pictures and know it was a fake---didn't happen, he's confounded to this day.

Non- believers think Lourdes is a fake also- document miracles- no human explanation- God does what he wants to do.
You can say or do whatever you like- free will. Yet, you have a chance to make an intelligent decision.

Back to Political statement on Organized Religion....there a thousands...maybe, millions of abuses by many organized religions....I'd counter that argument with the billions upon billions of great things done by organized religions. Hospitals, schools, charitable donations to every world catastrophe. Floods, hurricanes, famines, on and on- Catholic Charities and other organized faiths- all have saved millions. The abuses have existed and were covered up--unfortunately- with organization wants to air their dirty laundry publicly. JMHO- far more good done than bad by organized religion. Those unaffiliated with any religion- please enlighten me which humanitarian organization has done more?

The abuse of children is so repulsive in any form but when you hide in robes as a religious person.

It is disgusting. As bad as a crooked cop or a cop who abuses his power.

Those crimes should be prosecuted to the full extent.

I was an alter boy. I was raised Catholic. In a church with a seminary near where I grew up. There were brothers there. We all played in the church yard. There was a basketball hoop and a big field. We all knew some of the brothers were pedophiles.

Looking back should have told someone. We just stayed away from them.

As are your tired old posts of bashing Christians.

Just like to stir.

Why can't God and evolution exist? Could God not have put things in place for evolution to take place?

I never fully believed all the bible stories of creation. For there to be such a powerful being, to think they would create a giant universe and then place life only on this one tiny rock? But at the same time, it doesn't fully deter me from believing in a more powerful force, be it a God, be it natural energy, or something else.

I went to school with a kid, who's theory was that we were all a science experiment, kind of how we look at microbes under a microscope, that we are someone else's microbes.

Evolution and God are not mutually exclusive.

At some point in evolution man started doing things no other species had done. There can be a God gene.

The universe is unending. We are a part of it.

I've often stated on this very board just as bonefish has done that I don't feel creation and evolution are mutually exclusive. My problem is and has always been with organized religion, not creation. And as far as only placing life on this tiny rock? I've never seen the Bible state anything of the sort. The Bible, whether one believes it or not, is the story of the earth and man. I've never seen it state we are the only planet that has life or even intelligent beings on it.

I've also often said that if there is a being capable of creating all living things, surely that being is also capable of creating those beings in a manner that they can adapt to their changing surroundings and environment.

Why do you consider it political?


You sound like an attorney for a convicted man. "Yes your honor, my client has been found guilty but other people are pedophiles too. My client has been active in the community, donates to charities and has a great career. Surely all those good things he does makes up for being a pedophile, right?"

You realize that doesn't work, right?

SO? If Christian’s and Christianity would stay in their lane, you wouldn’t have to see those posts. People like you pushing that BS on others is why we are here. One finger pointed at me, three at you. Same ole same ole.

Organized Religion is a deep, challenging topic. If not for everyone it is for me.

The very most simplified - cliff notes version of MY FEELINGS would be something along the lines of:

- I think organized religions were used by people long ago to control people and the population.
- I don't believe God trusted man to interpret and pass on the word of God - Man is too flawed, and we're talking eons ago when word of mouth was used to pass along stories more than the written word.
- I think Man has used their Religion to cause untold harm throughout history. Look up how many wars were started because of / in the name of Religion. Look up the crusades.
- Look at the posts above discussing some of the atrocities with children - and how Religious bodies covered these events up - for decades. Hineous.
- While we're here thinking about Christianity - try to look at the world from the perspective of a boy or girl from India who never met a Christian in their life. Or someone from Iran, Bhutan, Ethopia ... Then tell me that Christ is our only saviour and the only path to heaven.
- The notion that morals come from God or Religion is farcical to me.
- I think when your life turns to crap - when loved ones die young - when disaster strikes ... I think it's comforting to believe in God. I understand people WANTING there to be a God and an afterlife.
- If there is a God - any notion that God interferes and touches individual's lives and events is silly. I think praying as a Sport's team (or individual athlete/competitor) is silly. With a Universe to watch over - why would any Supreme Being/God have any interest what-so-ever in your soccer match/basketball/football match? Omnipotent or not - just foolish in my eyes. What happens when you play a team of Muslims? Does the winner have the better/stronger God? No. The idea that Religious leaders or politicians could be anti-Biden/Obama and yet preach that God wanted Trump to be POTUS is beyond hypocritical.
- I find it deeply disturbing that so many of the hard Christian Right will support and back a person like Trump who is the antithesis of anything their Bible and Religion teaches.

- I think if people believe in Religion and it helps them find purpose, love, a framework - whatever: Great.
- I think people are awesome and great because of themselves and who they are at thier core - not because of the Religion they follow or the faith they have.
- I think too many people use Religion as a stepping stone. I think too many of those same people go to Church on Sunday and then live like heathens and sinners for the other 6 days of the week.
- I couldn't tell you - if it was possible to weigh the good vs evil that has been "acheived" under the name of Religion - whether Religion's globally would be judged to have made the world better or worse.
- I wish those that have faith and love for Jesus or Vishnu or Bhudda or Muhammed ... whomever - would except and love those that are agnostic or atheist or followers of a different religion - without judging or trying to place their values on others.

Just my 2 cents.

Our existence and the earth we live on is finite.

The universe is infinite.

To think that we are alone is about as valid as believing the earth is flat.

Knowing we are not alone changes the scope of religion. Knowing that homo naledi buried their young and drew figures in caves has to change our idea about man. Homo naledi had a brain about equal to chimpanzees. Chimpanzees and modern man share 98.8% of our DNA.

The idea that we as man are somehow superior is a fallacy on par with believing one race is superior to another.

To make you feel better, many religious predators have been imprisoned, churches have paid huge damages to wronged people- justly. I hate their actions, and noted previously- religious t o quick to forgive and believe " I'll never do it again". Hold all accountable. More good than bad, JMHO, done by organized religion.

OCD- JMHO, guess you believe in the Big Bang Theory, would like to know- easy for me to believe- earth/it's atmosphere, burning lava interior, oceans- magic of every human being with trillions of cells--obvious someone's in charge. Peace to all.

j/c:

If there is a GOD, he put everything man has ever known or will know on a rock in the middle of an expansive explosion (biggest ever), whilst the rock travels at 67000 mph around a sun in a solar system ever moving outward from the source of said explosion, at least 4.5 billion years ago. Any being capable of this and STILL HERE would be so far removed from our scope of comprehension, that even 200 year old myths and fairytales would fail miserably to discern it,, let alone have any understanding or the capability to write it down and teach it.

That said, maybe you can now understand why the shroud is fake af. Even if a guy named Jesus wore in to his burial, there is no chance that guy nor any religion got it right about a 4.5 billion year old entity, err supreme being. Smfh, I hate coming across this way because I do want you to believe whatever makes you feel better, but please don’t bother trying to rope me into that convo, because I am convince religion is a scam and always has been.

1st off Old and cold dog I am in my lane, I don't shove religion down people's throats, your posts are BS. Show me where I pointed my finger. You Sir are the one who bashes people. I do have a few questions for you

1. Did a christian kid beat you up every day?
2. Did a christian kid steal your lunch money every day?
3. Are you jealous of Christians.
4. Did a girlfriend dump you for a Christian?


I'm just trying to find out where your anger, and hatred, is coming from.

If anything they are the ones shoving things down peoples throats.

Take this thread. The whole purpose was to put down people who believe.

God provides examples. Some examples are those which you want to follow. Some examples are of those you need to reject.

When my daughter was young I took her to a Browns game. Some guy was getting drunk and cussing and acting the jerk. I just took it in stride and told my daughter that we raise her the way we do so she doesn't become a person like that.

Sometimes we need to see the "other" side to know we are on the correct path.

That's a great example of character, teaching and being a parent. I think how you handled it was excellent - I just don't see any connection to Religion. As I said in my post above - if you embrace religion and it helps you/guides you/gives you structure - Great. But you being an awesome / good individual doesn't have anything to do with your religion, that comes from within you, not from your religion. jmo.