DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Trump indicted in Florida on documents case, 7 counts

Bro- that pic of the ballroom stage was the kind of stuff you only used to see on SNL.

I've seen a lot of crazy stuff on the news over the years, but this one truly set a new bar.

"I'm sorry, Mr. & Mrs. Magabucks... the Mar-a-Lago Grand Ballroom will not be available for Karyn & Skylar's wedding reception. There was a scheduling SNAFU with the contractors, and the fork lifts couldn't clear the stage area in time for your blessed event. We suggest as a suitable alternative, a reception in the Champaign Lounge..."


O
M
G


Dude- boxes of classified US Gov documents, mixed in with personal, family s#-
stored in a shower stall! A bathroom!

...and people still rise to defend this weird, strange person- and the weird, strange things he says.
And does.

I just don't get it.
I really don't.

It is beyond two bubbles off plumb.

This is the same guy who signed the law into order for security of government documents. The guy who went after Hilary's emails.

Of t he 37 charges, is there any that stand out to you as overcharging?

Biden Biden Biden…lol. The trump brigade and their jokes. Pfft

This is a political forum, everything is political here. I know how it is as well. I know what I’m talking about. They dropped 37 charges on this thief for 37 separate crimes. Are you saying he shouldn’t be charged with some of his crimes? Let’s go through them one by one. And since you are trying to educate me…lol..try and do it please. Instead of blabbering and commenting or complaining on how they stacked a bunch of charges on a traitorous lying thug who deserves to be sitting in jail with the rest of his misguided insurrectionists. And still he’s the goper candidate of choice. Pffft.

Trump vows to stay in the race even if convicted

Donald Trump vowed Saturday to continue running for president even if he were to be convicted as part of the 37-count federal felony indictment that was issued against him this week.

“I’ll never leave,” Trump said in an interview aboard his plane. “Look, if I would have left, I would have left prior to the original race in 2016. That was a rough one. In theory that was not doable.”

Trump is not legally prohibited from running for president from prison or as a convicted felon. But such a bid would nevertheless provide a massive stress test for the country’s political and legal systems.

The former president leveled harsh criticisms at special counsel Jack Smith and argued that the case against him was politically motivated and flimsy. “These are thugs and degenerates who are after me,” he said.

Trump predicted he would not be convicted and said he did not anticipate taking a plea deal, though he left open the possibility of doing so “where they pay me some damages.”

He sidestepped the possibility that he would pardon himself should he win the presidency in 2024. “I don’t think I'll ever have to,” Trump said. “I didn’t do anything wrong.”

While Trump said campaign fundraising had skyrocketed since the indictment was issued, he conceded it was an unwelcome development.

“Nobody wants to be indicted,” said Trump. “I don’t care that my poll numbers went up by a lot. I don’t want to be indicted. I’ve never been indicted. I went through my whole life, now I get indicted every two months. It’s been political.”

He repeatedly invoked the Presidential Records Act to assert he’d done nothing wrong, a vigorously disputed interpretation of law that Trump has offered before.

Trump’s remarks came as he flew between speeches to Republicans in Georgia and North Carolina. The trip came one day after Smith unsealed a 37-count indictment against Trump, including accusations of violating the Espionage Act, retention of classified documents and obstruction of justice. Trump is set to appear in court Tuesday in Miami.

Trump’s personal valet, Waltine Nauta, was also charged. Nauta was seen traveling with Trump on Saturday, and the aide followed Trump out of his SUV upon arriving at the Newark, N.J., Airport en route to Georgia.

Trump is also facing an indictment in New York, stemming from allegations that he concealed hush money payments to porn star Stormy Daniels. He is also under investigation in Georgia over his efforts to pressure officials to overturn the state’s 2020 vote count. Smith is also investigating Trump’s role in instigating the Jan. 6 Capitol riot.

What role the most recent indictment will play in the GOP presidential primary is not yet clear, though following the New York indictment the former president saw a boost in his poll numbers and fundraising support as Republican voters rallied around him.

Trump’s campaign is looking to replicate the performance, with his team sending out appeals to supporters in hopes of generating small-dollar contributions.

All day Saturday, there were signs that Trump’s staunchest backers were unmoved by the news. Supporters lined the side of the highway running parallel to the runway at the airport in Columbus, Ga., many waving flags and standing atop trucks to get a view of the “Trump”-emblazoned jet touching down. Upon deplaning, he was greeted by a group of supporters on the tarmac, some holding “witch hunt” signs.

At the Georgia state party convention, the crowd was filled with people wearing “Make America Great Again” hats, and some audience members called out “We love you” while the former president was speaking.

Shortly after, Trump made a pit stop at a Waffle House restaurant where he was mobbed by diehard fans — one of whom offered to give the meatloaf-loving ex-president a copy of her mother’s recipe. Then Trump headed to the airport, where he posed for pictures with police officers.

In an indication of the hold Trump maintains over the congressional wing of his party, the former president was joined on the trail by North Carolina Rep. Richard Hudson, a Trump backer who oversees the House GOP campaign arm. Trump was also joined by Marjorie Taylor Greene, a firebrand Georgia congresswoman and loyal ally.

But the classified documents case — and the detailed, 49-page indictment that came with it — is widely seen as far more serious than the New York one, and the former president’s adversaries are hoping that his legal problems will distract him from the campaign.

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-vows-stay-race-even-221720425.html

No surprise here. The "I'll never leave" statement is a little concerning but also predictable for a wanna be dictator.

Ahh the Presidential Records Act! Trump acknowledges the PRA.. Refers to it all the time. He is clearly aware it exists.

Here it is:

Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978, 44 U.S.C. ß2201-2209, governs the official records of Presidents and Vice Presidents that were created or received after January 20, 1981 (i.e., beginning with the Reagan Administration). The PRA changed the legal ownership of the official records of the President from private to public, and established a new statutory structure under which Presidents, and subsequently NARA, must manage the records of their Administrations. The PRA was amended in 2014, which established several new provisions.

Specifically, the PRA:

Establishes public ownership of all Presidential records and defines the term Presidential records.

Requires that Vice-Presidential records be treated in the same way as Presidential records.

Places the responsibility for the custody and management of incumbent Presidential records with the President.

Requires that the President and his staff take all practical steps to file personal records separately from Presidential records.

Allows the incumbent President to dispose of records that no longer have administrative, historical, informational, or evidentiary value, once the views of the Archivist of the United States on the proposed disposal have been obtained in writing.

Establishes in law that any incumbent Presidential records (whether textual or electronic) held on courtesy storage by the Archivist remain in the exclusive legal custody of the President and that any request or order for access to such records must be made to
the President, not NARA.

Establishes that Presidential records automatically transfer into the legal custody of the Archivist as soon as the President leaves office.

Establishes a process by which the President may restrict and the public may obtain access to these records after the President leaves office; specifically, the PRA allows for public access to Presidential records through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)
beginning five years after the end of the Administration, but allows the President to invoke as many as six specific restrictions to public access for up to twelve years.
Codifies the process by which former and incumbent Presidents conduct reviews for executive privilege prior to public release of records by NARA (which had formerly been governed by Executive order 13489).

Establishes procedures for Congress, courts, and subsequent Administrations to obtain “special access” to records from NARA that remain closed to the public, following a privilege review period by the former and incumbent Presidents; the procedures governing
such special access requests continue to be governed by the relevant provisions of E.O. 13489.

Establishes preservation requirements for official business conducted using non-official electronic messaging accounts: any individual creating Presidential records must not use non-official electronic messaging accounts unless that individual copies an official
account as the message is created or forwards a complete copy of the record to an official messaging account. (A similar provision in the Federal Records Act applies to federal agencies.)

Prevents an individual who has been convicted of a crime related to the review, retention, removal, or destruction of records from being given access to any original records.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

For me, it's clear he didn't follow the rules.

That last rule would be interesting if he gets reelected.

Fact check explores presidential authority to declassify

More than two months after FBI agents seized boxes of materials at former President Donald Trump’s Florida residence, known as Mar-a-Lago, the federal investigation continues amid conflicting legal interpretations of a president’s authority to declassify sensitive information.

Trump added to the confusion when he said in an interview with Fox personality Sean Hannity, “There doesn’t have to be a process, as I understand it. ... If you’re the president of the United States, you can declassify just by saying it’s declassified. Even by thinking about it.”

Most national security legal experts dismissed the former president’s suggestion that he could declassify documents simply by thinking about it. But as an ABA Legal Fact Check posted Oct. 17 explains, legal guidelines support his contention that presidents have broad authority to formally declassify most documents that are not statutorily protected, while they are in office.

The system of classifying national security documents is largely a bureaucratic process used by the federal government to control how executive branch officials handle information, whose release could cause the country harm. The government has, however, prosecuted cases for both mistaken and deliberate mishandling of information. Under the U.S. Constitution, the president as commander in chief is given broad powers to classify and declassify such information, often through use of executive orders.

Some secrets, such as information related to nuclear weapons, are handled separately under a specific statutory scheme that Congress has adopted under the Atomic Energy Act. Those secrets cannot be automatically declassified by the president alone and require, by law, extensive consultation with executive branch agencies.

In all cases, however, a formal procedure is required so governmental agencies know with certainty what has been declassified and decisions memorialized. A federal appeals court in a 2020 Freedom of Information Act case, New York Times v. CIA, underscored that point: “Declassification cannot occur unless designated officials follow specified procedures,” the court said.

As the new ABA Legal Fact Check notes, the extent of a president’s legal authority to unilaterally declassify materials — without following formal procedures — has yet to be challenged in court.

https://www.americanbar.org/news/ab...22/10/fact-check-presidential-authority/

I guess we will now see it challenged in court. But to claim there wasn't a known procedure in place to declassify such documents is patently false.

JMHO, he CAN'T be reelected- WHY? Even with all the idiots supporting him there are more Democrats than Republicans, AND we Independents aren't stupid enough to vote for a felon....if the Republican Party puts him up as their candidate- guaranteed loss.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. The consistent hate he and other politicians in his party spew and making himself out to be a victim has shown to be a very powerful weapon. And let's face it, Biden is a terrible second option.

Barr: Presenting Trump as victim after indictment is ‘ridiculous’

Former Attorney General Bill Barr said Sunday that presenting former President Trump as a victim of a “witch hunt” is “ridiculous” in reaction to the narrative presented by most in the GOP that the charges are politically motivated.

“It’s a very detailed indictment. And it’s very, very damning,” Barr told Shannon Bream on “Fox News Sunday. “And this idea of presenting Trump as a victim here, a victim of a witch hunt is ridiculous.”

“Yes, he’s been a victim in the past. Yes, his adversaries have obsessively pursued him with phony claims, and I’ve been at his side defending against them when he is a victim,” he added. “But this is much different. He’s not a victim here.”

The Justice Department charged Trump in a damning 37-count indictment last week over his handling of classified materials after leaving the White House. Evidence collected by the Justice Department revealed that the former president possessed documents containing nuclear and military secrets. The charges Trump faces hold several decades of prison time.

Barr, who was appointed by and served as an attorney general under Trump, has been critical of the former president’s handling of classified documents. He said last week that the investigation was not a “witch hunt,” noting that the probe would not have gone anywhere if the former president just turned over the documents.

Barr said Sunday that the government acted responsiblly in looking into Trump’s handling of classified material, adding that it was Trump who “acted irresponsibly.”

“He was totally wrong that he had the right to have those documents,” he said. “Those documents are among the most sensitive secrets that the country has.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/404445...-CwZp5CtPULgPhmL74WywF3axtj9EWgiFMm7MePk

Sweet sweet irony.

This whole debacle is a terrible waste of tax payer dollars. He’s so guilty, they should skip the trial and go straight to the firing squad.

I was going thru some of the Sunday morning shows and a couple things rang out

Very little from the right about the charges; mostly Hillary, the laptop, Biden crime family-but almost nothing about trumps actions, other than gym jordan saying trump already declassified everything and it is a hit job.

I also saw that expect to see additional info come out-it was an pretty detailed indictment, but they definitely didn't show all their cards. And there may be others charged.
And, when trump goes back and lies saying I never said that-the DOJ already has the goods.

Somebody also said this morning that they could have charged him on more counts, but the info would not be able to admissible into court-because it is even more top secret than the stuff they revealed and they don't want our top secrets out in public disclosure.

They also guessed that in the last couple years, there may have been over 10,000 guests/visitors into Mar-a-largo with almost no oversight. Guests had almost free reign of the place other than the family residence.

Also, the attack plans for Iran that trump was showing are missing.

Also, I saw Michael Cohen and he said at some point if they can't find more docs, expect Bedminster to be searched, trump towers, the kids houses.

If they want ALL of the docs Trump took back in the archives, they may need to make an investigative/military trip to Russia and Saudi Arabia.

No, OCD this is not how this country works. He is afforded the right under the constitution to a fair and speedy trial.

And if it is true and provable in court, just what is on the indictment, he damn well should never be able to run and see if he can pull another Jan 6 to win the White House and pardon himself and he should be in jail for the rest of his years.

Using some lame disclaimer that what she's saying isn't a threat is straight from the trumpian playbook. And here it is out of her own mouth.....



And to show just how much of a lie it is for those on the fringe that still listen to her, the NRA has roughly 4.3 million members currently which is actually a ten year low.

So either her math skills are less than a third graders or she's telling an obvious lie because nowhere in math is 4.3 million most of 75 million.

Murica!

As if I didn’t know this… smh. I just wanted to give house republicans another opportunity to cut useless spending.

ok, didn't know whether this was in jest.

You can count on gym jordan starting a handful of inquiries into DOJ or the FBI or hunters laptop.

and gym better read up on his law books; it is against the law to interfere into an active investigation.

Also, I was reading thru a review on lawfare blog. They think there still may be other indictments-in Washington, DC or New Jersey-because crimes happened in multiple locations

It’s all in jest at this point. Nothing I can say will fix stupid, idiotic, or nuts…

I didn't say overcharging. I said count stacking.

I haven't read all the charges, nor plan to do so.

Stacking is when you might have 2-3-4 counts(or whatever) that are basically over the same question of the law. Did he break the law or not? If you are going to be found guilty or innocent on one, you are probably going to be found guilty or innocent on all of them.

The point of law being debated is should he have had the documents or not? It isn't the same as him having murdered 1 person v 10 people. Killing 1 person doesn't automatically make you guilty of killing 9 more.

Again, I am not taking a position on the matter. I am just saying don't let the fact there are 37 counts make it seem more serious. I hope that clears things up a bit.

But it is serious right? If this was Joe Smoe who was accused of the same thing - and found guilty - they'd be looking at a prison sentence - right? And by Joe Smoe I mean anyone in the Govt at any level. Then lying about it to investigators is serious. Then having employees try to hide and move the materials being searched/asked for is serious - right? I think it was this case that he then tried to have a lawyer write a false statement about it... ?

Someone mentioned Biden - Biden had documents he was (apparently) un-aware of. Once known he handed everything over, co-operated fully. IS that different than Trump? I mean maybe we should clarify that so we are all on the same page.

I wish I could find the pic I saw the other day... It was of Hilary wearing a baseball hat that said "but her emails"! Cracked me up.

My bad, I think I read someone elses post and transfered it to you... My Bad.. Sorry

I'm not a lawyer but I think I know the difference between right and wrong.. Most Times.

I don't see how it's possible for it to be right for him to have those documents.. The way they were stored in bathrooms, on a stage, in bathtub showers.. That seems shaky.

Some reporter on the left said that this would have been nothing if he'd done what Pence and Biden did when confronted with Docs found in their homes. They didn't squabble or fight or hide it. They both admitted to having them, that it was an error and that proper folks should come and get them. If Trump would have done that, this wouldn't even be and issue and I tend to agree with that.

For me it's a sign of a criminal mind acting out.

37 different charges for 37 different crimes is not stacking charges. You should read them before lighting up on the amount these charges. But no you just blabbered out for us not to get hung up on the amount of charges without reading them yourself. Another passive defense of a proven thief, rapist, insurrectionist, and soon a proven traitor. Typical.

Not directly pointing at you peen, but I’ll never understand how anybody in their right mind can’t condemn him. But will passively support this pile of human waste.

And yet the Goper response is still whatabout Biden, Biden Biden, Hillary, Bill, And Hunter ..and nothing to see here with trump.

MAYBE.

Has President Biden turned over the documents. It's my understanding they are still in discussions and conditions.? There are also 1800 boxes at the college which is refusing to turn over documents.

I am not trying to turn this in to a "what about". I just haven't seen anything to support your claim.

Which seems to be an odd thing for you to be discussing since you have no idea of the actual charges against him.


Actually had you have bothered to read the indictment you would find that the charges involve his refusal to turn them over. His continuing to claim he no longer had said documents. His refusal to honor a subpoena, shifting them from location to location while they weren't secured and showing the documents to those not allowed to view them among other things. It's about his admission on tape that he did not declassify them before he left the White House and now lacks the authority to do so. So no, a former president does not have the right to have such documents but that isn't what he's being charged with.

And no, Biden isn't negotiating with anyone to keep any documents. That was trump when he was refusing to honor the subpoena and turn them over. He kept on doing it for so long they had to file for a search warrant to get them. And again no, the National archives is who has the right to have those documents. Once again trump knew he had them and said "I don't want anyone going through my boxes".

Maybe a synopsis would help.

General citizens (including ex Presidents) cannot retain classified documents. Trump had in his possession 102 classified documents.

31 of the counts are for willful possession of classified materials. The willful item is noteworthy, as it is different than inadvertent (see Biden/Pence). Some of the materials involve nuclear issues. Contrary to public statements made by Trump, those cannot be declassified by saying so.

6 of the charges involve obstruction for impeding the return of classified material to the government. Since the lawyer noted that he called them my boxes, or my documents, that demonstrated willful possession. The government alleges a conspiracy, withholding of documents, corruptly withholding of documents, corruptly concealing documents (the document shuffle), concealing a document under federal investigation (the FBI subpoena), scheming to conceal (the discussion with lawyers and Nauta), and false representations and certifications to the government (the affidavit signed by Christina Bobb).

Now, one of the questions that I have and would like answered is "where were each of the documents found" I see it differently if they were kept in a single locked location versus intermingled with all the presidential records, but suspect that they were intermingled.

I don't know why the 71 other documents were charged, but suspect that they would have been disputed as being relevant, or subsequently declassified, or too sensitive to put in the indictment.

It is also noteworthy that the charges have nothing to do with the Presidential Records Act. Only the willful retention of classified materials. That is the core of the dispute, and the governments efforts to get the documents returned in a timely manner.

Actually I don't care or see how it makes any difference "where they were found" when there's photographic evidence they had been shuffled around to many, totally insecure locations at Mia Largo while they were in his possession in an effort to keep the documents from being found.

I am interested to hear from the one or two posters we have on DawgTalkers who know the protocols for top secret and confidential documents. I think we have at least 2 people involved with such documents (now or in the past) through work.

How big of a deal is this? How shocking are the photos and details that we know? My assumption is that the "Left" media is probably sensationalizing this (although to be honest my bias lends me to think this is sensational) - and I have no doubt the Right Wing media and Trump sycophants are downplaying this as a political prosecution.... would love to hear from a neutral.

Hell - Barr who was a former Trump sycophant and enabler has indicated this is a big deal. Of course like Mueller and other die-hard republicans who have spoken out vs Trump, no doubt Barr will get branded a traitor and a Democrat plant soon.

You know they will. Hell, they've already done that to the FBI and Christopher Wray is the head of the FBI. He was appointed to that position by trump.

That much is pretty obvious. As an observation, If I were Jack Smith, I would have stated so in the indictment. e.g. Trump did not retain classified documents in a method that was secured. If you recall there was the issue of putting a lock on the storage room door. Obviously, documents on the stage were not secure, the bathroom, it depends where it was located.

I'm sure those photos will be evidence in the case. But I think it will be presented more as backing up the fact they kept moving them around to prevent trump's lawyers from finding them and turning them over to the government. That's where the Nauta indictments come into play. This is part of an article that describes that.......

Are you referring to this baseless trumpian claim?

Fact check: Trump’s baseless ‘1,850 boxes’ attacks on Biden’s legal and normal University of Delaware documents collection

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/09/poli...-boxes-university-of-delaware/index.html

Come on man.

And while I'm quite sure you are far more well versed in terms of the law than I am, here is how John Bolton describes the actual indictment against trump. He says the charges are narrowly tailored and that in fact they didn't just throw everything up against the wall...........

John Bolton: Trump indictment ‘devastating’

Former national security adviser John Bolton said the federal charges brought against former President Trump last week are “devastating,” adding the indictment should result in the end of Trump’s political career.

“This is a devastating indictment,” Bolton, who served under Trump, said Monday on CNN. “I speak here as an alumnus of the Justice Department myself, because not only is it powerful, it’s very narrowly tailored. They didn’t throw everything up against the wall to see what would stick that this really is a rifle shot. And I think it’s, it should be the end of Donald Trump’s political career.”

The Justice Department last week unveiled an indictment brought against the former president. It includes 37 counts of federal charges in connection with his handling of classified documents at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago residence.

The indictment details how the former president allegedly sought to keep the classified documents from federal investigators, shared them with people without security clearances and improperly stored them.

Bolton said Trump may have taken the documents because he “may have just thought were cool.” He said he would have to see what was in the documents to answer the question of why Trump may have taken them.

He also suggested that while Trump will not push for a fast trial, he hopes the Justice Department will.

“I hoped the Justice Department really does try for a speedy trial, because frankly, the sooner it goes to a jury, and we find out their answer, whatever, whatever that answer is going to be the better for the country,” Bolton said. “Justice delayed, as they say, is justice denied, and the court should not let Donald Trump get the kind of delay I suspect he wants.”

Bolton on Friday also called on Trump to end his campaign for a second White House term, saying if the former president wanted what was best for the country, he would step aside.

“Donald Trump should immediately withdraw as a candidate for president,” Bolton tweeted. “Criminal charges are piling up around him. If Trump truly stood for America First policies, he would support the rule of law instead of continually flouting it. Withdraw now!”

https://thehill.com/homenews/campai...BPAV6g88tuf5Wr_fE6KM5V_Atomq0SIzTKYawFig

You should go read the indictment, otherwise your flailing (and failing) around with insufficient information.

I get it, the republican talking points are witch hunt, weaponization of DOJ, it's political (even though Trump was a politician), election interference, Biden's fault, etc. etc.

But no one in the GOP will touch the content of the indictment, because on the facts, it is solid. In the old days, you would hear words like "serious threat to national security"

It the new GOP rules apply are Snowden and Assange now heroes?

It is impractical to have a speedy trial when 2 of the lawyers either quit, resigned or were fired Friday.

I would like to know which one applies.

Finding a trial lawyer with a Top Secret clearance willing to defend Trump is going to be a challenge. His track record does him no favors.

So trump is on tape saying he didn’t declassify the documents and people still defending this crap.

Conservatives wouldn’t let their own kids get away with lying this much, yet this grown ass billionaire has them believing everything he says, licking his boots and shining his toilets. Crazy