DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Ukraine and Russia

How can you call a woman like MTG not a real person?

she is the polar opposite of AOC. But, they are the same person.

Isn’t it just ducky how people like you, in your warm, comfortable home, with a refrigerator full of food, can tell the Ukrainian people to just suck it up buttercup, we need you to weaken our adversary. I am sure they are happy to “take one for the gipper”. This death and destruction was avoidable but too many people in the establishment elite have the same attitude you do. Sorry Ukrainians.

Ukraine is defending it's country from Russia who is attacking them. Their only other choice would be to turn their nation over to Putin. I'm not telling them to do anything. Like I said, Russia attacked Ukraine when it invaded Crimea back in 2014. Putin's intent was quite clear from then on.

Ukraine is defending itself. The fact that we benefit from that is a bi-product. This was not avoidable. You've been reading too much fiction again.

Russia made it clear that nato membership on that border was untenable and they could not tolerate it yet the west continue to float nato membership for Ukraine. I guarandamntee you our military experts knew this was going to result in an invasion yet the west continued. Ukraine has never (as far as I know) been a nato member so we could have just withdrawn the idea and no invasion would have occurred. I know, I know, horror of horrors, our adversary would not have been weakened. But golly gee, a lot of Ukrainians would be alive and their cities still standing. I think I know how the Ukrainians people would have voted.

Paraphrasing Frederick lenz, the best war is the war never fought. And that could have been this war.

Outside the American communist party there aren’t 100 Americans who support or look favorably on Putin and it is just plain dumb to suggest otherwise!

Did that happen before or after they invaded Crimea in 2014? You seem like you're doing nothing but making excuses for Putin. So the rest of the world including the U.S. should just bow to Putin's threats every time he makes them? Great going comrade.

We already know how they voted. There is no ambiguity here.
The folks on Snake Island told the Russian flagship Moskva:

"Russian warship, go f* yourself."


I'll stand behind brave patriots who wish to keep their sovereign country over a despot who thought he could bully himself into a cheap win in less than 2 weeks. Your mileage may vary, but you'd be on the wrong side of this debate.

The Ukrainian people choose this course of action instead of capitulating to that little Kremlin toadstool. In your zeal to win talking points, you forgot about Occam's razor.





.02

I remember this was the line trotted out by the Alt Right Media soon after the invasion.... Along with the notion that if Trump was in power Putin would not have dared to invade!!!

Funny i know, but thats what they tried to say.

Not only are they real, but they are the face of the Republican party. I know that many republicans are embarrased by them.. I get that. But if they are, then they need to stand up an be just as loud against them. These folks that I named are ruining what was a great party. Good values. Now, because of these and about 35% of the party, the rest of them have got a stain on them... Deserved or not, they are stained. You can down play it or distance yourself all you want, but until you rid yourselves of these you will remain a stain on the underwear of America.

Agree. The likes of " MTG and Desantis and Bobert and Gietz and Trump" are WHY I'm a former Republican. You can't have rotten leadership and expect good results. Chop the head off and get real people like Liz C running the party and watch it grow and win again.

Oh hogwash!! Many American military commentators said it repeatedly. Spokesmen for the russki govt made it clear as well. Almost every knowledgeable commentator knew Putin was not going to stand by and let nato stand on that border. That is just plain fact and saying it is not excusing Putin, it is acknowledging truth.

So if taking nato for Ukraine off the table would have prevented this invasion why are you opposed to that being done. Never mind. I get it . What’s a little Ukrainian sacrifice compare to weakening our enemy.

I like Liz Chaney. As with any politician, I don't agree with all her stances on things.. But overall, I believe her. I believe she tells the truth... There are others that I care for also. So certainly, not all republicans are nuts. But these so called MAGA republicans certainly are out of their minds.

By the way, Trump is the reason I'm no longer a republican. I gotta admit, I was more middle of the road anyway.

It is pretty lonely in the middle... especially during primary season.

Many republicans of the 60’s and 70’s are now Dems because of the extreme right wing policies of today.

And people are leaving AT&T for Verizon, well, according to Verizon.

Maybe you need some help with the timeline here. Ukraine didn't apply for membership in NATO until AFTER Putin had already annexed Crimea in which Ukraine had been attacked and after they were already fighting them in the east. Not before.

Ukraine applies for Nato membership after Russia annexes territory

Volodymyr Zelenskiy dismisses Moscow ceremony as a farce and rules out negotiations with Putin

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...embership-after-russia-annexes-territory

Russia had already attacked Ukraine. They had already taken over territory and claimed that territory as their own. They did that before Ukraine had ever applied to be a NATO member. As I said, if you're willing to buy into Russian propaganda as the excuse as to why Putin launched a full scale invasion of Ukraine, all one needs to do is look at the timeline.

Kremlin drone attack: Russia accuses Ukraine of trying to assassinate Putin

Russia has accused Ukraine of trying to assassinate President Vladimir Putin by using drones to target his residence in the Kremlin in central Moscow.

The presidential office said defences downed two drones overnight. Mr Putin's spokesman said the Russian leader had not been in the complex at the time.

Unverified footage on social media appeared to show an object flying over the Kremlin before a small explosion.

Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky denied his country was behind it.

"We don't attack Putin or Moscow. We fight on on our territory. We are defending our villages and cities," he said, speaking on a visit to Finland.

Meanwhile a Ukrainian presidential adviser told the BBC the reported incident indicated Russia could be "preparing a large-scale terrorist provocation" in Ukraine.

The two countries frequently trade accusations and denials since the Russian invasion in February 2022.

Russia said the two drones targeting the Kremlin - a large government complex in central Moscow - were disabled using electronic radar assets.

One video on social media showed smoke rising over the fortified complex, and in another a small explosion was visible above the Kremlin Senate building, while two men appeared to clamber up the dome.

In a statement, the Russian presidency said: "Last night, the Kyiv regime attempted to carry out a strike on the Kremlin residence of the President of the Russian Federation with unmanned aerial vehicles."

It said it regarded this "as a planned terrorist act and an assassination attempt on the president", and Russia "reserves the right to take retaliatory measures wherever and whenever is deemed necessary".

Mr Putin has very high personal protection and the BBC's Russia Editor Steve Rosenberg says it is astonishing to think that drones could have got anywhere near the Kremlin.

The Russian leader was unhurt and his schedule would continue as normal, his office said. He was working in Novo Ogaryovo outside Moscow on Wednesday.

Fragments of the drones had fallen on the Kremlin site but no-one had been hurt and there was no damage to buildings, the presidency said.

It also noted the incident had come shortly before Russia's 9 May Victory Day parade, which foreign dignitaries were expected to attend.

The parade would go ahead as planned, Russian news agencies quoted the Kremlin as saying.

"What happened in Moscow is obviously designed to escalate the situation before 9 May," said Ukrainian presidential spokesman Serhiy Nikiforov.

Meanwhile Ukrainian presidential adviser Mikhailo Podolyak said the incident could help Russia justify attacks on civilian targets in Ukraine and could also indicate "guerrilla activities of local resistance forces" inside Russia.

"Something is happening in RF [Russian Federation], but definitely without Ukraine's drones over the Kremlin," Mr Podolyak said.

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken said he could not validate Russia's accusation that Ukraine had tried to kill Mr Putin, but said he would take anything the Russian presidency said with a "very large shaker of salt".

Mick Mulroy, a former US deputy assistant secretary of defense and CIA officer, told the BBC that if reports of the incident were accurate it was "unlikely" to be an assassination attempt as Ukraine tracks President Putin's movements closely and he was not in Moscow at the time.

"This may have been to show the Russian people that they can be hit anywhere and that the war they started in Ukraine may eventually come home to Russia, even the capital," he said.

Alternatively, if the reports were not accurate, "Russia may be fabricating this to use as a pretext to target President Zelensky. Something they have tried to in the past", Mr Mulroy said.

Moscow's mayor on Wednesday announced a ban on unauthorised drone flights over the city. Drone flights would require a special government permit, Sergei Sobyanin said.

Several Russian cities had already announced they would scale back this year's Victory Day celebrations.

Russian authorities have cited security reasons and attacks from pro-Ukrainian forces for the changes. Explosions and fires have occurred in Russia in recent weeks.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65471904

That may be true, but I know a lot of people who were Democrats and are leaving the party because the party left them in favor of those who take and are more concerned w/their individual rights rather than the good of society.

I don't like either party, but one of them would be wise to find a candidate and policies that align w/the majority of hard-working, responsible, moral folks and ditch those who align themselves w/extremist groups on both sides. That might not be looked at favorably by the media who represents either side, but I still believe that most folks are good, honest people and don't align themselves w/the whacko crap that we are subjected to every freaking day.

Don't know if this was a staged attack, opposition forces inside russia or if Ukraine tried to get putin. President Zelensky said that it was not them. Russia says that putin wasn't staying at the Kremlin-could be true, could be false.

Russia now says everything is on the table, including a nuke attack.

If I were going to sleep in Kviv next couple of nights, I might be keeping an ear out for air raid sirens.

Whose morals?

So….somebody explain to me why Belarus should still be a thing. I get that Russia gets to park their nukes there….but other than a parking lot, what does that country actually do?

They interfere with the rest of the world on Putin’s behalf. It’s like a state run by MGT to support Trump. Bootlickers.

Maybe you remember how the Native Americans reacted to the oppression of, and the white mans wars in North America. They’d would wait and take the side of the English or French or whoever was winning at the time and support that side. looked what happened to them. So yeah Belarus shouldn’t be a thing in the future.

It looks like Wagner group is staging a coup inside Russia. Just developing.
Very fluid situation

Where are you seeing this?

Chad Scott and Aaron Parnas Tik tok
Twitter-search telegram. Russia civil war is trending but there is a bunch of wasted crap
Also Wagner on twitter

ABC News
Wagner mercenary chief calls for armed rebellion against Russian military leadership
1.2k
0:07 2:37


PATRICK REEVELL
Fri, June 23, 2023 at 7:20 PM EDT·6 min read


The head of Russia's Wagner mercenary group appears to be threatening an armed rebellion against Russia's military leadership, after accusing it of deliberately shelling his forces on Friday.

Wagner's founder Yevgeny Prigozhin in an audio message on Friday claimed his forces would now punish Russia's defense minister and chief of general staff, telling other units to stand down and not offer resistance.

"There are 25,000 of us and we are coming to sort things out. ... Those who want to join us, it's time to finish with this mess," Prigozhin said.

Prigozhin also accused defense minister Sergey Shoigu of "cowardly fleeing" from Rostov in southern Russia and ordering an attack on Wagner forces.

Prigozhin published a shaky video on Friday that showed a shattered group of trees and a burning trench, claiming it was a Wagner camp shelled by Russian troops and alleging many Wagner troops were killed.

Russia's defense ministry has already denounced the video, calling it an "information provocation."

A Kremlin spokesperson said Russian President Vladimir Putin is aware of the video.

"President Putin has been informed of all the events around Prigozhin. Necessary measures are being taken," the spokesperson said.

Russia's FSB has issued a statement accusing Prigohzin of calling for "the start of an armed civil conflict" in Russia.

The FSB called on Wagner fighters not to follow Prigozhin's orders and to assist in his arrest.

Prigozhin has denied this is a "military coup" calling it a "march for justice."

"They neglect the lives of soldiers, they forgot the word 'justice,' and we will return it," Prigozhin said in the video. "Therefore, those who destroyed our guys today, and tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers, will be punished."

White House National Security Council spokesperson Adam Hodge, released a statement that said the counsel is "monitoring the situation and will be consulting with allies and partners on these developments."

Gen. Sergey Surovikin, a senior Russian general who has been linked with Prigozhin, gave a video address calling on Wagner fighters to stop their rebellion and turn back.

Surovikin was appointed the top commander of Russia's 'special military operation' in Ukraine between last September and January. He was removed in January and replaced by Russia's chief of the general staff Valery Gerasimov, whom Prigozhin is trying to topple.

This comes hours after Prigozhin launched an extraordinary verbal attack on Russia's military leadership, and saying the invasion of Ukraine was based on lies.

Wagner chief says Russian invasion based on lies

The head of Russia's Wagner mercenary group, Yevgeny Prigozhin, said the Kremlin's justifications for its invasion of Ukraine are based on lies, in another extraordinary attack on the country's military and political leadership.

Prigozhin, a key ally of Putin, in a video posted Friday, contradicted the public explanations for the war, including the central claim made by Putin that the 2022 invasion was necessary to prevent an attack from Ukraine.

Since launching the war, Putin has painted it as a defensive operation to protect Russia. He's claimed it was needed to stop imminent large-scale attacks from Ukraine on largely Russian-speaking eastern regions in Donbas that Russia has occupied since 2014.

But in his video address, Prigozhin, whose fighters have played a leading role in the war, said that was not true and there had been no imminent risk of attack from Ukraine.

"The ministry of defense now is trying to deceive society, the president, and tell a story there was insane aggression from Ukraine and that they intended to attack us with the whole NATO bloc," Prigozhin said.

"The Special Military Operation that began on Feb. 24 was started for completely different reasons," he said.

Prigozhin has been in a public feud with Russia's defense ministry and its head Sergey Shoigu for months, blaming them for Russia's disastrous prosecution of the war. As Russia has faced deepening setbacks in Ukraine, he has become an unexpected, prominent critic of Russia's leadership, using social media to post almost daily video updates excoriating it as incompetent, but stopping short of directly criticizing Putin.

Prigozhin also said in Friday's video that the two goals Putin announced at the start of the war— the "demilitarization" and "de-Nazification" of Ukraine—were "pretty stories."

Instead, he blamed Shoigu, the defense ministry and a "clan of oligarchs" for starting the war. He accused Shoigu of seeking glory and wanting "to rob" Ukraine and divide up its assets.

Prigozhin's attacks are extraordinary in Russia, where public criticism of the authorities risks harsh punishment. Since the war began last year, criticism of the military leadership has become a criminal offense.

That has led to speculation among experts about why Prigozhin is enjoying such license. Some observers have suggested Prigozhin might be speaking with the tacit approval of the Kremlin, which may be looking to shift blame for the war from Putin by scapegoating other figures such as Shoigu.

Prigozhin did not directly attack Putin in the video, instead claiming the president was being deceived by his generals and other figures around him. In reality though, Putin—not Shoigu—has taken the lead in making the claims around Donbas and de-Nazification the central justifications of the war, reciting them in his speech declaring his "Special Military Operation."

The implicit picture Prigozhin gave of Putin as weak and out of touch was also remarkable, implying he was manipulated by a clan of wealthy businessmen around him and lied to by his military. The war, as described by Prigozhin, was not about protecting Russia or resisting NATO expansion, but instead greed.

"The war was needed by oligarchs," Prigozhin said. "It was needed by that clan that today practically rule Russia." He added Russia's "sacred war" had "turned into a racket."

Prigozhin lambasted Russia's military leadership for the huge casualties its troops have suffered. He accused Shoigu of hollowing out the armed forces under Putin through corruption and cronyism, crippling its ability to fight effectively and then catastrophically botching the invasion after believing it would be an easy victory.

"There is a total absence of management," Prigozhin said, calling Shoigu a "weak grandfather."

"Someone should answer for the lives of those soldiers," Prigozhin said in Friday's video.

Prigozhin this week has accused the defense ministry of once again presenting a falsely upbeat picture of how Russia is fending off Ukraine's ongoing counteroffensive in southern Ukraine. Russia's military has claimed to have largely stymied the counteroffensive and inflicted heavy losses on Ukraine.

Putin himself has trumpeted those alleged successes, repeating claims Ukraine has suffered heavy losses of Western equipment.

But Prigozhin has said in Russia's position is far more difficult, as Ukraine presses attacks at two points on the Zaporizhzhia front in the south, and Moscow is at risk of another significant defeat.

"On the ground now, today, the Russian army is retreating on the Zaporizhzhia and Kherson regions," Prigozhin said in Friday's video. He added that Ukrainian forces were advancing "deeper and deeper and deeper into our defenses" around Bakhmut, which his Wagner forces helped capture weeks ago.

"The leadership of the ministry of defense is thoroughly deceiving the president, and the president is receiving reports that don't correspond with reality in any way," Prigozhin said.

"Two agendas are forming—one on the ground, the other on the president's table," he said.


https://www.yahoo.com/gma/russian-mercenary-chief-appears-threaten-203300794.html

Hey, this might actually kickoff. It sounds legit on Wagner Group’s leader’s part. Popcorn time.

just hope it’s not some kind of trap for Ukraine.

From the reading I have done it doesn't sound like the Wagner group is the savior type. Hard to tell if this is a good thing or not. The evil you know if you know what I mean.

I called this back in the early days.

Top Military Brass or Oligarchs would take him down/out.

Every regime that has ever been built upon this model fails in exactly the same way:
One man, alone- fighting off the rabid dogs he raised and trasined.

Except it isn’t the top brass or the Oligarchs. It’s a guy who is under indictment from us who is attacking and blaming the brass and Oligarchs. He is claiming to be on Purim’s side, that the brass is lying to Putin.

What is his endgame? I don’t think anyone really knows. I did read that it was the CIA who convinced him to do this and is giving him real time intel. If true, that might bode well for us. I want Putin gone. I hope we don’t get something worse in this mercenary.

That's only true in the sense that AOC is as far left as MTG is far Right.

Beyond that they are noting alike.

When AOC speaks out, she uses facts as a basis for her argument.

MTG is all about conspiracy. Never about FACTS

Lolz.

Let me guess. The Russian military is getting tired of dying for nothing.

Are you saying the Jewsih laser thingy is NOT true ??? Or Frazzledrip - or any of the other Qanon stuff?

Yeah - LOLZ to you. You're clearly crazy.

Just to keep up with the trendy Meme thingy going on....