DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Deshaun Watson

Yes, we didn't/shouldn't learn anything from Baker hurting his shoulder, trying to play through it, and being awful an entire season.

Ski had nothing to do with that… You guys can have this team. Perennial losers.

Sorry you're leaving.

Here come the trolls putting words in my mouth. But if this is all we are getting, I will be gone soon enough.

I was pleasantly surprised the way Watson played in that game and he deserves all the credit he gets but as a franchise QB with 230m on their way to his account there’s no excuses for him to not show up to play when he’s cleared by our medical team.

Forget about Baker and that he was willing to put his health on the line despite awful play design from our HC but instead you can look at a quite successful QB in KCC. There was some excellent episodes on Netflix about Mahomes who was willing to do whatever it takes to both participate and win games for his team. No excuses and no feeling sorry for himself. Even when he barely couldn’t walk he made himself available, even insisted to play despite being well documented injured .

That’s the sign of a winner and you can bet his team mates do everything in their power to repay his dedication and loyalty.

When our highest paid player doesn’t show up when we need him most then why should other players in our roster walk that extra mile we expect from highly paid athletes when they’re injured?

What do you prefer. A fighter and a “win at all cost” character who don’t look for excuses like Pat Mahomes or a *snowflake who make himself unavailable and disappear when things get tough and uncomfortable?

* (Floquinho in Portuguese)

They gave Watson the choice and he didn't feel he was good to go and would hurt his team more by not playing than playing.

People tend to forget that.

If Watson didn't feel he could play, no sense inflaming the thing with a Bye week this week.

Being medically cleared and able to play are two different things.

It's a marathon not a sprint. If Watson sat in the playoffs, it'd be different. What you do at the end of the season matters a lot more than what happens before the bye. If one doesn't think one can play well enough to win, why put the rest of the season at risk? I don't think he expected things to go the way they went. He may have legitimately thought DTR gave the team a better chance to win.

That part I agree with but Watson’s time in Houston wasn’t exactly a pretty story and when things got uncomfortable and tough and they traded away key players then who did you see disappear and make himself unavailable? Then we’re back to excuses again. His team mates didn’t find reasons to not participate, they was there every game despite questionable results and criticism from all around.

It’s not about questioning his talent and ability. DSW is a good QB when he occasionally find his mojo to show up or when things go well. Typical for a character who mostly delivers when the road is straight without bumps and with sunshine in their back. But when a mild wind turns into a storm you don’t see much of the Deshaun Watson characters of this world at the front line. When there is an opportunity to take the easy way out then you can bet his name is among the first who show up in that line of snowflakes.

What you do is who you’re in both good and bad times. As a son, husband, father, friend, employee and team mate.

Stefanski and his team according to reports gave him the chance to decide by himself. In my world it should be the other way around. Watson makes himself available and let our HC make the decision if we’re going risk his long term health or not. It’s about sending the right messages to his teammates and those supporters who paid his salary, it’s about being someone we can count on when things gets rough.

That’s the spirit of a winner and someone who values loyalty to his organization and his team mates. That’s my take on this.

As a side note to Watson’s unavailability and why we have these problems is mostly happening because of a questionable leadership culture who don’t practice their own guidelines.

Every attempts to create a winning culture often falls apart before it even starts when the leaders don’t hold those who has their own agendas accountable and make sure everyone works inside the same working structure.

That responsibility falls on Berry and Stefanski but having a weak and insecure owner doesn’t exactly help them either. This organization needs a strong leader with the right principles who don’t compromise with certain values.

As long as we don’t have someone who protect a strict and functioning culture and make sure everyone is acting under the same rules and guidelines characters like DSW can dictate his own terms and make our coaches and leaders to look weak and incompetent.

one of the drawbacks of signing Watson was that he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt in the public eye ... he says he can't play and people are going to take it negatively. It's going to be like that with anything ... it's an uphill battle for him both on and off the field

People are going round and around in circles on this and getting themselves all wound up and meanwhile not a peep about Watson apparently not knowing how to slide.

IMO, if we're going to get all hot and bothered over this, why isn't Watson taking questions about spending some of that gajillion dollars we gave him on a sliding coach.

I tend to agree.... if Watson couldn't play that's fine. I'd rather have him healthy after the bye.... i'd do the same with Burrows at this point in Cinci.

I'm not sure what communications took place all week, everything i've read indicates this was a very late decision and took KS completely by surprise. That sounds to me like poor communications thru the week of practice .... if there was even a slim chance DW wasn't going to play DTR should have had more 1st team reps and playbook adjusted. That part worries me more than the decision not to play. If we see a pattern of medically cleared to play and lare decisions to sit I may start to worry.

Are either of those options a good look for stefanski?

Either he wasn't communicating with the players and training staff or he failed to use that information appropriately.

I'm guessing Deshaun expected to recover faster. Unfortunately, he's not getting as much bodywork to improve blood flow as he was used to.

Sliding is overrated. (Sliding guys get hit at times and are often in bad positions for mitigating damage.) Could take some lessons from Lamar on avoiding huge hits and lessening impacts, though. Unfortunately, it's football and you'll never avoid all of the hits.

This seems to be a popular theme among some. Being medically cleared to play has nothing to do with your ability to perform your job. All it means is that you're not so injured that you risk further or more seriously injuries by playing. It doesn't mean that with your throwing shoulder being injured you are able to throw the ball. Those are two different things.



Baker's injury was in his non throwing shoulder. But yeah, let's forget about Baker.

I watched the same show you did on Netflix. I believe of Mohomes wasn't able to throw the ball he wouldn't have played. Everyone on this board has accused me of being a watson hater. And I do have great disdain for him as a person. But I compartmentalize the person from the player. The worst thing that can happen is to have a player that plays when he shouldn't. That's willing to hurt his own team because he decides to play when he can't. That's the very definition of a selfish player. And that has nothing to do with moxy.

Out of stock already.

If Watson couldn't throw or if his throwing was in any way impaired then it seems highly probable that KS and the whole FO would have had at least an inkling that DW might not be able to play even if he was 'medically cleared'...

Yes I agree being medically cleared has almost no correlation to "should play" but in your summary you keep suggesting if Watson couldn't throw then it was the right call. I don't know if it was or wasn't the right call.... But if he could not throw or throwing was restricted then the total surprise that KS seems to have coached the game with is even more damning.... No?

That's possible. I don't think one can just take the very few facts that we know and make an accurate summary here. One would hope such a non structural injury would improve. It could be as simple as nobody truly knew for sure if he would be ready to play come game time or not. It may have been a surprise to not only the coaching staff but also to watson himself that the injury hadn't improved to the point he could play.

But thats almost exactly the point, if you are relying on improvement even if its expected, then you put a minimum amount of time and effort into contigency. Either they didnt and we got a predictable outcome ... or they in fact did, and the result was no better than if they hadn't. Neither is a good look.

Hope DW and the entire team get right after the bye.

I know many feel that with a rookie QB and no Chubb then 36 passes is fine and there's no issue with KS and the gameplan/playcalling. I disagree and there isnt a scenario you can paint where it just looks like a KS fail. We can still lose the game but DTR is put in a position to fail less and possibly get a bit of confidence versus what we actually saw.

As I've said elsewhere, I think the short pass option was available to DTR if one were to take a closer look but he just chose not to take them. There is no "contingency plan" with which you're going to be to run against a Ravens D that has the box stacked without Chubb. That just wasn't going to happen.

Ok, so to summarize you don't feel KS could have called a better game than he did? Thats my takeaway from your comments in multiple threads. 36 passes was good, no rollouts and making him read the whole field was the best plan? You havent written that in so many words but your very spirited defense of KS doesnt seem to read any other way.... feel free to correct me if thats not accurate.

I disagree that it was a well called game. And repeatedly calling plays your rookie QB cant execute falls into that "adjustment needed" category which KS simply is not capable of.

jc

The MRI confirmed he has fluid around his shoulder joint. Why play (badly) in pain and risk prolonging the injury?

While I'm unhappy we lost (It was painful to watch) I feel its better to heal and then start. Otherwise we have a Baker situation where he keeps playing through pain and not doing well.

I've certainly never claimed it was a well called game. My assertion is more that people seem to be more concentrated about how the Browns lost rather than the fact they would have lost anyway. I don't think how the game was called had anything to do with the fact they were going to lose that game no matter what plays he called.

I think people should also be placing just as much blame that the only viable back up QB when watson couldn't play was DTR. The kid has some skills that can be developed but anyone thinking he was ready for this is only fooling themselves. That includes the Browns FO who created the situation in the first place.

I'm also pointing out that while roll outs may have been a better option, can anyone tell me how he is at running the roll out? Is that something he does well with at practice which Stefanski simply chose not to use or is it something DTR simply doesn't execute well? I have no idea. But then I don't think many who are making that assertion knows the answer to that question either.

And then the claim that the short passing game should have been used more. From everything I've seen it was open to DTR but he chose not to throw those passes. It could be that he hasn't developed the skill to diagnose those routes. It could be that with so many bodies on that part of the field he simply hasn't caught up to the speed of the game and is unsure of himself. I don't know. But then again I don't think others do either. Even he said he was trying to force things.

My overall point is that people are making a lot of assertions based on little to no information to base these things on. They know what they saw. But they have no idea why they saw it. They have no idea of watson's actual condition at the start of that game. They have no idea if they tried rolling DTR out in practice and he simply had trouble executing those plays. The Monday morning QB'ing and second guessing based on nothing with which to base it on other than the results they saw on the field that day I find rather short sighted.

It's not so much about defending watson or Stefanski. It about watching people jump to conclusions without any actual context of what they saw it to base those assertions on.

Fair enough.

I've not said DW should have played. I don't think we win with better play calling. However I think the ay calling was bad and indicitive of a pattern we've seen from KS. I think that part of the game is very much worth highlighting.

Obviously, I don't know for sure, but I seem to recall Stefanski saying DTR had 1st team reps and was up on the gameplan. If Watsons shoulder was hurting on Sunday morning, it had to be hurting earlier in the week . Somebody was running the reps in practice. I am sure it was DTR and not the practice squad guy.

As I said earlier. Game day decisions are made every week on players. This isn't something new. They head out to the field at 10:30 or so, work out a bit and make a final decision. No doubt Stefanski wanted to wait and see as long as possible.

The actual context is based on 3 years and 4 games now of watching Stefanski's failure to adjust with at least 4 different QB's now. You of all people should know his documented trend since you've posted many times about the lack of adjustments by Stefanski. The assertions are completely valid based on Stefanski's past history. Though you may be correct in your assumption that it was a no-win situation, that doesn't exempt Stefanski from the criticism that he fails to adjust his offense continually and he definitely did NOT put his rookie QB in the best situation to be successful. Stefanski ran almost the exact same offense that he would have run if Watson was playing and that's total BS for an experienced HC to put his young zero experienced player in.

I KNOW I read an article friday or Saturday that said DW didn't throw much in practice, and DTR got most of the reps.

Per the Terry Pluto podcast, DW could barely throw the ball 15 yards and it had no zip on it

https://www.cleveland.com/pluto/202...100th-episode-terrys-talkin-podcast.html

so then why was our gameplan to be on pace to throw 50 times? lol

This isn’t a direct answer to you PitDAWG because you actually trying to make a good point but in general because I’m so tired of hearing and reading all the jada jada when we’re losing.

Some of you’re missing the point about the importance of setting a culture that reduces internal misunderstandings/miscommunications, that doesn’t create unanswered questions whenever a unexpected decision is taken, that doesn’t make it almost impossible for us to win a game with a original or restructured game plan when we’re facing injuries.

All I see is excuses, all sorts of explanations and more excuses to protect all the underachievers and the snowflakes. It must be a nice little coincidence that whatever happens, unexpected or not, is that one thing that’s certain is the Cleveland Browns almost always find a way to create negative headlines and/or lose games.

One step forward, two steps back. Set things that doesn’t work on repeat and try it again. That’s the motto of a dysfunctional company culture.


There’re actually other organizations that win games with injuries and aren’t always victims to unexpected circumstances. I know it’s hard to believe but they exist.

I'm not defending the coaches here, but, I think there is a terrible tendency to look at what the team did and assume that it is exactly what the plan was.
People also often complain of a lack of in-game adjustments while failing to realize that almost everything they watch is an in-game adjustment.

We couldn't run the ball. Period. Every attempt at anything even similar to a hand-off was stuffed. Sweeps, screens, inside, outside... nothing was going anywhere.
If you can't run it, then your choices are to either pass it, or pass it. It's that simple.

If our attempts at running had been even a little more effective, it's pretty much guaranteed we'd have seen more of it and less passing..... but, the OLine struggled to pass block and run block and none of our RB's is named Nickolas Chubb. Hunt is awesome, and Ford is a good 3rd stringer, but neither of them is Chubb.

It's important for any organization to always be able to lean into their strengths.