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#2031950 10/01/23 04:14 PM
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It's over the game is over, more than that too.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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I was dead wrong about DTR. That was really, really bad.

We are in big trouble if Watson can't play for awhile.

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Can we now please stop all the DTR is the next coming. He has a long way to go, especially when it comes to reading Defenses.

Preseason ain't the Real season


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Honestly what did everyone expect when Dw couldn’t play? When I heard that I knew it was a loss. Our D still played well but obviously our O couldn’t move the ball. DTR is not ready now but that doesn’t mean he can’t improve for the future. I just hope that Dw can heal and be ready in 2 weeks or we’re in trouble.

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I’ve been saying all year that if this version of the Browns doesn’t get to the Superbowl, then it will never happen in my lifetime. It’s very clear that this is an 8 win team at best. Imagine the sentiment after we get stomped by the 49ers in two weeks.
My postgame thoughts: The Browns are very, very lucky to have the fan base that they have. I am so glad that I stopped buying season tickets a decade ago. Never Again.

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Postgame thoughts:

1st: Vomit

2nd Vomit again

3rd: WTF happened to our OL?

4th thought: WTF happened to our defense?


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

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I want to answer Nathan Zegura, he said " it's just one game"

and he inferred, by the time of kickoff, when Watson was out " it wasn't a game you were supposed to win"

No dude, No

if feel like 300 game since Nineteen ninety nine against Pitt and Balt.

2. How many times has first place in the div been on the line, , IN 23 YEARs????

3. You still had a Defense that played the best 3 games statistically of any nfl team in any 3 game stretch since 2000
at the kickoff of this game.

4. you did not have to Put your rookie @uarterback, the backup, in that many drop back situations,
even in the First @uarter, when the score was 0 to 0
0 to seven
3 to seven, or even at
3 to fourteen.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Honestly what did everyone expect when Dw couldn’t play? When I heard that I knew it was a loss. Our D still played well but obviously our O couldn’t move the ball. DTR is not ready now but that doesn’t mean he can’t improve for the future. I just hope that Dw can heal and be ready in 2 weeks or we’re in trouble.

This might be the most common sense, logical thing I have read today.

As a side note, went to Bengals and Steelers message boards, Bengals want head coach, OC & DC fired and poster Steeler poster want OC fired obviously, but some want DC & fewer yet want Tomlin fired. I guess we are normal.

Nothing to do with our game but why was Burrow playing down 24 points with 5 minutes left?

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Stefanski and his horrible play calling given the situation HAS to be addressed. It was embarrassing


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Originally Posted by 3rd_and_20
That was really, really bad.
.

No, it was worse than that. Stefanski almost got DTR killed out there with his criminal play calling. I continue to like what I see (even with very few carries) from Strong Jr....he reminds me somewhat of D-Earnest Johnson. I won't say anymore on the play calling until I have settled down.


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I said before the game 3 points would be all we get.. not because I didn't think we could score more, but knew Stefanski would do exactly what he did. They really need to take a long look at stefanski at the bye and come out of the bye with someone else calling plays.. Too many times we've been held back by his playcalling.. its more evident when we have stars go down.. Teams like Baltimore can take practice squad players and make them look good because Harbaugh is 10000000000000000000000x better coach than stefanski.. When things aren't perfect, coaching is what wins and loses games, and we've lost too many because of that. We can't afford another wasted season waiting to see if the light comes on for him.


Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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For the Future???

We had twenty sixteen, to wait for a draft pick
twenty seventeen to wait for a draft pick at @uarterback,
then we had a fix to get Watson
thenn we had a year of waiting on a suspension to end

FIRsT PLACE IN THE DIV, ON THE LINE TODAY,


what new offense???


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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To add on, there are so many things we could have done on offense to help the rookie QB out. Sure it was evident that DTR was trash from the first series, so instead of changing the playcalling to mitigate that, KS leaned into it and the results are a loss. We could have slowed the game down by running it, screens, counters, design qb runs, draws, things to use the aggressiveness of BAL against them, much like they did us.. but no, we have a rookie QB, backed up to his end zone throwing 30+ yards off his back foot into triple coverage and underthrowing by 15 yards.., so what do we do next drive, we come out throwing again. Running game is a rhythm thing.. you have to let the Oline and backs get into a groove and start playing down hill.. we did nothing.


Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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Originally Posted by DaveyD
Stefanski and his horrible play calling given the situation HAS to be addressed. It was embarrassing
Is his playcalling better or worse as a caller

than York was as a kicker.

... this happened in a home game,
with the lone top of the Div. on the line.


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JOK had a great game.


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Don't tell me to relax that they have a rookie @uarterback,

Why have we as Browns fans, had to watch so many div. games over the years with rookie @uarterbacks
with @uarterbacks signed off the street in December like a ken Dorsey type.

how about we go the next 20 years without a rookie @uarterback as one of your top 2 @uarterbacks,
unless he's actually good.


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Seen enough of Stefanski - Hire Eric Bieniemy.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

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We've had some really bad Sunday afternoons together since 1999 ... and this one rivals any of them. It was AWFUL ... DTR is trash. Literally trash.

Stefanski didn't tailor our offense ONE bit for a rookie QB against the Ravens ... that's a crime. Just malpractice as a head coach.

Defense was exposed, gassed, injured, etc ... just not good


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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DTR! DTR! DTR!

OK...maybe not.

Why would people think he was going to be any good? He looked good against 3rd stringers on no stringers.

He's a nice guy to have, but we don't want to see him playing a whole lot.


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I thought there was a chance DTR would ball out today, but I was terribly wrong.

Dude is still raw and needs a lot of work. Too many passes that were behind, ducks, floaters, and just bad reads.

The offense as a whole was just bad. Chief had a decent game.


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DTR looked like someone who's never even played lol ... Dobbs coulda come in handy


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Those of you who’s still praising Berry and Stefanski as a competent duo maybe needs to ask yourself why we’re performing so inconsistent and how lack of depth on our roster affect our results. Every position and every player counts if you’re aspiring to be the best.

Once again our game plan was hugely affected by lack of quality on key positions but with an incompetent play caller the results was almost a given from the first snap. With a head coach that don’t know how to adjust our tactics when the game doesn’t go as expected then the players soon will lose faith in his ability to affect the result in a positive way. Our GM has the overall responsibility and that includes making sure we have a competent play caller and HC.

Watson’s injury and being without Chubb is off course two negative factors but if our game plan are so weak that we can’t even produce one single TD without our $230m QB then we aren’t close to be a SB contender, not even a candidate to win our division.

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j/c...

- DTR for Mayor! Just kidding, he blows. It's a shame this organization felt comfortable naming him the back-up QB on a team built to win now.

- This team is one step forward, one step back, one step forward, one step back.

- I never need to see Elijah Moore run the ball again. He's a JAG. Not convinced he was worth a second round pick at this point.

- Stefanski did nothing to help DTR today.

- The defense came back to Earth.

- 1-2 in the division and two of the games were home games. That's unfortunate.

- Jed Wills stinks.

- Hopefully Garrett's injury does not keep him out future games. Was wearing a boot after the game.

- Game balls to Hopkins and Bojorquez.

- I have a bad feeling Shanahan is going to tap dance all over Stefanski in two weeks.

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coaching malpractice line had me thinking,

he's like a public defender representing a criminal being railroaded.
if you cannot afford an attorney we can give you one, it won't be a good one. rofl


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Originally Posted by Dawgs4Life
DTR looked like someone who's never even played lol ... Dobbs coulda come in handy

He could have, but in the end those QB's are hired hoping you can trade them. That was the deal with signing Dobbs when we did. It's what we hope we can do with DTR...too bad the tape isn't in our favor.....but is is early on that front.

The days of keeping a real back-up...a guy who can win you games is pretty much over. The economics of the game don't allow.


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I'm still on the DTR train. He's poised and has a good arm. He got thrown into the fire today and his coach called the game like he was a five year vet. He needs reps and experience.

Stefanski...

1. 11-5, 9-8, 7-10.
2. 2-2 this year, 1-2 in the division, always owned by Harbaugh and Tomlin.
3. Has an embarrassment of riches of talent, including HOF caliber players, and doesn't produce wins, especially against the teams we need them the most against.
4. No signature wins.
5. No division titles.
6. Doesn't even coach the best unit on the team.
7. No one. Does less. With more.

This is the story of the Browns with Stefanski...if Lamar had been hurt, we might, and I stress MIGHT, have won but it would have been a nail biter down to the wire. As it was today they still had significant injuries. But as soon as Watson went down the whole operation fell apart and the Browns never had a chance. Would never happen with a Harbaugh coached team.

Steranski is not a winner. This continues to be proven out on a week to week, season to season basis.

We need a real head coach. He's squandered so much talent it's almost incomprehensible.

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beyond a real HC, we need a new owner.. this group over corrected the coaching carousel and are sticking with an under-performing coach for the sake of not changing coaches. Fire stefanski at the Bye, let Callahan take over as HC, AVP can be OC and nothing has to really change


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We made a change at Defensive play caller and brought in a proven veteran winner and look where it got us, a complete turn around for the better. It's long past due we look at the Offensive play caller.


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DTR could be sent to PS tomorrow and stay there for a few years...dude looked as bad as any QB we've ever had.. just like charlie frye. Meanwhile Dobbs has complete 72% for 549 yards and 2 TDs and zero picks and another 93 yards rushing and a td.. Not saying he's a world beater, but alot more chance of running an offense than DTR is.


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DTR looked worse than Spergeon Wynn, Todd Philcox, etc


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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My best guess is Stefanski is not comfortable being a CEO head coach and probably is insecure about his value as a head coach if he's not calling plays.

But people always scoff when I say we need people who will prioritize winning. If Stefanski cared as much about winning as he did about calling plays, he'd make a change.

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You're probably right Rish ... something has to change. I wish we'd try to give AVP the duties and Just make Stefanski in charge or being CEO


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Disturbing game. What does this say when we run into the 49ers

All of a sudden the season doesn't look too promising.


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Originally Posted by Dawgs4Life
DTR looked worse than Spergeon Wynn, Todd Philcox, etc

I don't agree with this. Everyone who has been harsh of their criticism of him also acknowledges his coach screwed him. So what's the truth? It's somewhere in the middle. DTR was bad. His coach was bad. He needs reps and experience.

And let's not forget that the reason Watson is hurt is because we had to turn him into a RB to get some value out of him because his passing was so bad. He rebounded a little to feast on one of the worst pass Ds in the league but my guess is if Watson played in this game it's a repeat of the Steelers game and maybe we win, maybe we don't...most likely we don't because well, Stefanski.

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Originally Posted by Milk Man
j/c...

- DTR for Mayor! Just kidding, he blows. It's a shame this organization felt comfortable naming him the back-up QB on a team built to win now.

- This team is one step forward, one step back, one step forward, one step back.

- I never need to see Elijah Moore run the ball again. He's a JAG. Not convinced he was worth a second round pick at this point.

- Stefanski did nothing to help DTR today.

- The defense came back to Earth.

- 1-2 in the division and two of the games were home games. That's unfortunate.

- Jed Wills stinks.

- Hopefully Garrett's injury does not keep him out future games. Was wearing a boot after the game.

- Game balls to Hopkins and Bojorquez.

- I have a bad feeling Shanahan is going to tap dance all over Stefanski in two weeks.

Milk,

Sorry for your disdain though very warranted. I'm so sick and tired of this "Rah Rah" sh_t every year. I've been saying for 2 years now that Stefanski sucks as a HC. He proved it again by putting another QB out there on an island all by himself to just get murdered. We have grossly overvalued and overpaid players like Wills and Njoku who everyone in Cleveland is still waiting for the lightbulb to come on and come close to being an average player in the league. I had concerns right out of the gate when we traded a 2nd round pick for Moore. Teams just don't trade 2nd round draft picks for a draft pick still on his rookie deal if he's showing promise - especially the NYJETS. Though I think the Browns defense is improved, I have a hunch that the first 3-games caught opponents by surprise and after watching film have now found some chinks in the armor. In typical Browns fashion though, almost zero adjustments during the game or at the half to answer what the Ravens were doing to us. Well, it's off to the other board so I can read about how Stefanski is still the 2nd coming of JC - disgusting!


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I had a strong feeling that a beat down was coming this week. Not that anyone follows my comments but I really thought the Ravens were doing everything they could to muster the troops to solve our defense. I don’t think having DW would have made much of a difference, tbh. Maybe we would have made it closer. When I saw that DTR was starting I thought this could either be a nice wildcard surprise or a miserable afternoon. Welp…

The real story here is not DTR, it’s the now you see ‘em, now you don’t defense. We’re one of a sizable handful of very inconsistent teams in the league who look like completely different teams from week to week. We have legit players, but when they have an off game, the whole team just nose dives. You need players to emerge and play well when others struggle. That’s the chiefs. They rarely lose a game where some players didn’t actually play pretty well. Instead, we seem to all play well or poorly at the same time. That’s the sign of an inconsistent, steaky team that can’t be trusted on any given Sunday.

I also said that we’d need to look at least decent in this and the San Fran game in order to be taken seriously. I’m not calling it a season, we could figure this out. But I now officially have my doubts.




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People are cropping all over the defense, and I don't understand why. They played winning football. They got hung out to dry by the offense. We weren't keeping every offense out of the endzone all season especially against Jackson.

And they didn't quit or give up. Previous Browns defenses would have hung their head a quit. This defense did not do this.

It was good enough to win with if the offense held up their end of the bargain.

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I read your comments about the defense and wonder if you actually watched the game.

I can't for the life of me understand the criticism of the defense.

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my only criticism of the defense was we got a little sloppy tackling, which hasn't happened all year ... but we gave them short fields, and never got them a rest


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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I agree with the sloppy tackling at times.

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Originally Posted by Rishuz
If Stefanski cared as much about winning as he did about calling plays, he'd make a change.
Is winning a priority to the Browns?
Are they trying to get a Lombardi trophe this year?


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I never want to hear again, at any point, when the broadcasters spew that old line after a while,
they'll say,
" if you knew at the beginning of the year you could have been 4 and 2 or 3 and 3 at this point you would have taken it? "

no,
winning is not a priority every year,

so nothing less than winning every single game, every single time is acceptable.

they don't care enough about winning.


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I've argued for years the Browns don't prioritize winning and everyone is offended because... how could a team not want to win. I mean everyone wants to win, right? What a ridiculous statement everyone says.

But no one really understands what I'm saying,.and I don't have the patience or care to go back and forth on it.

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A common refrain from Stefanski...


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Can anyone see Stefanski out coaching Shanahan?

We are staring directly down the barrel of 2-3.

So frustrating knowing you go into every game at a deficit at HC.

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no, we will be severely outreached by Shanahan.

The only coach Stefanski can beat is Taylor


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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I think all the people complaining about "Stefanski's" play calling underestimate how much input the QB has. Unfortunately, getting in the right play is only half the battle. Execution wasn't there at all. Only way to get that post snap processor up to speed is to play against live snaps. These were DTR's first. It started bad and he got caught in the quicksand. The game was awful, but bad decision making can make any play call look bad. It felt like DTR threw into coverage when he should have ran, ran when he should have thrown it away, and just generally made the wrong decision most of the time. Its almost like he tried to speed himself up too much and was pressing.

I did hate the Moore run call, and then Moore managed to make the call even worse than it had to be.

On defense, Lamar made plays. He'll do that sometimes. It's about inevitable if you keep giving him chances. He had the lead early and then didn't have to press.

OL had some good moments, but consistency still isn't there. Pocic going down likely didn't help. DTR took too many hits.


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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
I think all the people complaining about "Stefanski's" play calling underestimate how much input the QB has. Unfortunately, getting in the right play is only half the battle. Execution wasn't there at all. Only way to get that post snap processor up to speed is to play against live snaps. These were DTR's first. It started bad and he got caught in the quicksand. The game was awful, but bad decision making can make any play call look bad. It felt like DTR threw into coverage when he should have ran, ran when he should have thrown it away, and just generally made the wrong decision most of the time. Its almost like he tried to speed himself up too much and was pressing.

I did hate the Moore run call, and then Moore managed to make the call even worse than it had to be.

On defense, Lamar made plays. He'll do that sometimes. It's about inevitable if you keep giving him chances. He had the lead early and then didn't have to press.

OL had some good moments, but consistency still isn't there. Pocic going down likely didn't help. DTR took too many hits.

in the words of Col. Potter.....Horse Hockey.. stefanski controls if the game plan is going to run or pass, he calls all the plays, DTR I promise had no permission to audible. So calling that many passing plays with rookie QB is 100% on him


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We have an OC. What does he do? Like seriously. Is he responsible for the game plan? Or what? People blame Ski for everything and I understand the buck stops with him. But theres another chef in the kitchen who no one mentions.


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so in essence, stefanski's bad playcalling was made worse by DTR showing he's not an NFL qb yet


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Originally Posted by EveDawg
We have an OC. What does he do? Like seriously. Is he responsible for the game plan? Or what? People blame Ski for everything and I understand the buck stops with him. But theres another chef in the kitchen who no one mentions.
Alex Van Pelt is OC in name only. He's been allowed to call one game, the playoff game against pittsburgh, which we won.


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Originally Posted by leadtheway
Originally Posted by EveDawg
We have an OC. What does he do? Like seriously. Is he responsible for the game plan? Or what? People blame Ski for everything and I understand the buck stops with him. But theres another chef in the kitchen who no one mentions.
Alex Van Pelt is OC in name only. He's been allowed to call one game, the playoff game against pittsburgh, which we won.

There is more to an offense than calling plays.


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I voiced my opinion on an earlier post and now I'll voice it again on the next game. If DW can't play in 2 weeks expect another difficult and tough loss. Even if he can play, I don't expect to beat the 49"ers. We've already had serious injuries to 2 key players, we don't know how serious DW's injury is and we have to find out about Myles. We'll have 2 weeks to prepare for the 49er's, probably come out flat like we have in the past after a bye and everyone will be screaming again. Just expect it and it might be a little easier to swallow. If DW is out for an extended period I would get on the phone and try to get Carson Wentz. At least he's had some success and has experience. DTR can't handle it right now. I'm starting to see the season go down the drain with all the injuries.

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They had over 6 months since they last played Baltimore, they had a draft, and went to the greenbrier, they had some injuries, and they had 2 backup @uarterbacks, one they traded away to Arizona,
they had an injury to Chubb, they signed Hunt, they brought in 3 rb's including some unknown from Indy who was cut a week later,
they had an injury to Conklin, they had a new Right Tackle,
all since they last played Baltimore, they even had a historic 3 game defensive output,
but
in all of that, at no point could they figure out that against Baltimore, a rookie @uarterback should NOT have to drop back 30 to 40 times, when your Defense could own them if it were close and you had any kind of momentum.


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Rish I agree with your assessments of todays game. We held them to less than 300 yards total O. If someone told us before the game that would happen we all would have taken it. It was the lousy O and playcalling that cost us this game nothing else. The D got discouraged because of it and gassed also. That's probably what led to the sloppy tackling.

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Too many pre-snap penalties.

A rookie QB, with no big threat in the run game to take some heat off him. Moore and DTR with boneheaded plays on the same drive it’s a minor miracle we got 3 out of that drive. And I agree with whomever said it, stop screwing around with Eli out of the backfield. We’re telegraphing that weak stuff.

We aren’t getting much push from the ol, we seem to be on our heels a lot.

Our D started off well but the 95-yard TD drive was the kill shot. Garrett was our best player today.


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Injuries should not derail our season. Baltimore has way more injuries and it hasn't derailed theirs. Our entire defense has been healthy the first quarter of the season and we sit at 2-2.

We have a Stefanski problem. Guy is not a winner.

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Just back in the Ville coming from the game. My thoughts are that, without watson we had very little chance. We had good seats, and I can tell you it wasn't the line. DTR was holding the ball forever. He always seemed to be looking deep downfield. I didn't realize how small the dude is, but it was a factor. Those saying he has a big arm are foolish. He had nice zip on the short balls, but his arm is weak. Many of his long balls looked like punts, just hanging in the air, he is lucky they didn't have a couple more picks. No accuracy on the long ball. Guys were getting space off the line, but he was just holding the ball forever looking downfield. Ravens defense knew he woudn't be a threat long, and went after him.

As for the defense, some of the worst tackling I have seen. Looked like last year. The first quarter they were good, then the Ravens figured them out and the edges were left open. The same hole opened over who ever was playing LDT. They were riding him inside and the DE was crashing hard and it left a big hole everytime.

I don't know what went on with Watson, I heard it was his decision not to play. But they better have a better plan if Watson misses time. DTR is not ready for this, and honestly after seeing him live, I don't think he ever will be.


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I don't disagree but without DW playing well we won't win not with who we have as QB's. The Jets are a perfect example. AR's injury has derailed them.

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I want to add, that the hype about Moore was no worth it. Using him in the backfield is not going to work. I want to see Tillman on the field more.


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Originally Posted by Milk Man
A common refrain from Stefanski...


Let me guess what his next sentence was. "I take full responsibility for this" "I'll have to look at the tape"


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thanks for the synopsis .. I agree we need to scrap the Moore experiment and use him as strictly a slot


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted by leadtheway
Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
I think all the people complaining about "Stefanski's" play calling underestimate how much input the QB has. Unfortunately, getting in the right play is only half the battle. Execution wasn't there at all. Only way to get that post snap processor up to speed is to play against live snaps. These were DTR's first. It started bad and he got caught in the quicksand. The game was awful, but bad decision making can make any play call look bad. It felt like DTR threw into coverage when he should have ran, ran when he should have thrown it away, and just generally made the wrong decision most of the time. Its almost like he tried to speed himself up too much and was pressing.

I did hate the Moore run call, and then Moore managed to make the call even worse than it had to be.

On defense, Lamar made plays. He'll do that sometimes. It's about inevitable if you keep giving him chances. He had the lead early and then didn't have to press.

OL had some good moments, but consistency still isn't there. Pocic going down likely didn't help. DTR took too many hits.

in the words of Col. Potter.....Horse Hockey.. stefanski controls if the game plan is going to run or pass, he calls all the plays, DTR I promise had no permission to audible. So calling that many passing plays with rookie QB is 100% on him

What if instead of passing plays they were rather packaged plays?

Here's an article on them, and guess what, it focuses on their use by Chip Kelly, who just happened to be DTR's college coach.
Link

The article also mentions the Vikings using packaged plays and guess where Stefanski was when the article was written?

Unfortunately, it appeared to me that Baltimore took away the run reads with their initial alignments, but played the pass post snap. Then they focused on taking away all the short to intermediate passes. Particularly they crowded the flats (which makes screens a bad read) and then had Roquan Smith reading DTR in the middle of the field.

I could be wrong and its hard to tell from broadcast angles, but the rush to judgment seems a bit quick.

Last edited by Bull_Dawg; 10/01/23 08:19 PM. Reason: note: this is probably not the best link to show how we now have our packaged plays designed, but the Chip Kelly and Minnesota references couldn't be passed up.

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My thoughts? Andre Rison, Jeff Garcia, RG3, etc….all the other half-witted trades and signings we’ve done of “Big Name” veterans…Watson is another monumental flop. I’ve been a Browns fan since the rabbit ears and tin foil on our black and white tv picked up the games on WLIO television out of Lima. I was 6 years old and I was hooked. 60 years later…I think this is the last straw. I’m sick and tired of “This is the year!” And “Wait ‘til next year!” 50 years from now the Browns will be the only NFL team to never appear in a Super Bowl. Have fun.


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We have a Haslam problem


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Originally Posted by EveDawg
Originally Posted by leadtheway
Originally Posted by EveDawg
We have an OC. What does he do? Like seriously. Is he responsible for the game plan? Or what? People blame Ski for everything and I understand the buck stops with him. But theres another chef in the kitchen who no one mentions.
Alex Van Pelt is OC in name only. He's been allowed to call one game, the playoff game against pittsburgh, which we won.

There is more to an offense than calling plays.
lol no there’s not on game day and that’s obtuse to think AVP is allowed to make any calls during the game or even has a say in the offense. He’s there to work with the QBs and to hold the title


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Sometimes it feels like Stefanski is too smart for his own good. DTR needed routes where the WRs stopped moving and gave him a target to throw to. Instead anything that required to throw on the run or especially anything deep he missed on. Call it nerves, lack of reps or even lack of talent/development but it looked like he was still trying to run Watson’s offensive game plan.

We waited too long to try and establish the run. We were in catch up mode most of the game and they knew DTR couldn’t throw on them at that point. He’s got a long way to go. If Watson is gone for any extended period of time we’re the New York Jets 2.0.

We traded this game for a 5th round pick. Dobbs would’ve at least been competent.

If you told us at the start of the season that by week 4 we’d be without Chubb, our starting RT and Watson we’d probably all agree this game is a loss.

The injuries on the line concern me. Jones is actually a pretty big upgrade over Hubbard. Harris is almost at a level Pocic plays but he’s is also the extra offensive lineman they normally bring in which will alter those packages.

Injuries on the D-line with Myles and Zadarious need to be monitored as well. Both those guys are pivotal to our defense.

I was upset we had a bye this early in the year but to be honest it came at a time when we desperately need it. Get players healthy and gameplay how this offense will operate going forward.

I’m beginning to think Elijah Moore is a selfish player in the sense he’s more worried about himself trying to make a play versus doing what is smart for the team. That run was clearly an example. As an NFL player unless you’re taking a desperation sack or trying to recover a fumble you should never have a 20 yard loss. He could’ve cut his losses at about 7/8 yards but instead he moved back another 10+ yards trying to make something happen. It’s said he drifts off his routes if he thinks he can get more space but that’s not what the QB needs. He has the most targets on the team but only catches about 60% of the balls thrown his way.

I think the defense could see the writing on the wall after the first turnover and touchdown. Not to say they didn’t fight but I think after repeatedly seeing the offense be able to accomplish nothing it just wore on them it was a losing battle.


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Here’s a question, swap head coaches this game. What do you think would have happened. I promise harbaugh would have got more than 3 points out of the offense. And that’s the problem


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I also think at this point we need to put some feelers out for Adams or jeudy. End this Moore and dnp experiment. For some reason Berry is the worst at evaluating wr talent


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Originally Posted by Rishuz
I've argued for years the Browns don't prioritize winning and everyone is offended because... how could a team not want to win. I mean everyone wants to win, right? What a ridiculous statement everyone says.

But no one really understands what I'm saying,.and I don't have the patience or care to go back and forth on it.

I think I get what you are saying. Like you write, everyone wants to win. But do you have the commitment to do ALL that is necessary to do so?

It is easier to trade a lot for a "proven" QB than make your existing one better, or draft and develop one (and know this isn't saying I prefer Baker to DW).

If my play calling is suspect, am I humble enough to let someone else try?

Am I capable of putting the players in the best position to use their strengths for best results.

Can I put aside my personal goals/ambitions to do what is best for the team. This goes for players, coaches, admin across the board.

I just realized how horribly I am describing the point, but I do feel like I get what you mean.

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Originally Posted by leadtheway
Here’s a question, swap head coaches this game. What do you think would have happened. I promise harbaugh would have got more than 3 points out of the offense. And that’s the problem

I don't know. It's easier to scheme against a limited rookie QB than it is to scheme with one. Take away the run and quick passes isn't that complex of a defensive plan. See if he can beat you deep. He couldn't. Double down.

It wasn't the Ravens scheme that got them points, it was out of structure plays by Lamar for the most part.

Harbaugh may have been able to get more points. Emotional, unsubstantiated promises don't mean much, though.

Last edited by Bull_Dawg; 10/01/23 08:33 PM. Reason: addendum: Harbaugh doesn't actually call offensive or defensive plays, are we swapping coordinators, too?

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Doesn’t make them untrue. Just unproven. Much like you thinking DTR has the tools to be competent and just needs time


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Oh Boy! Here comes all the excuses for Stefanski. 1) He had a rookie inexperienced QB (anyone say Purdy). Remember, talk on this forum has always been what a great QB coach Stefanski is - or is he? 2) Van Pelt is the OC - that's where the blame goes. LOL, surely you haven't been watching the Browns the last 3 plus years. Van Pelt is OC in name only and has never been more than that. 3) DTR is bad and made many mistakes. Who selected DTR as Watson's backup? If he wasn't ready, then why play him and call 36 pass attempts?

I wonder how many games the Browns have to lose this year before people finally come to the conclusion that this Stefanski experiment (much like the Wills experiment) needs to end abruptly?


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j/c...




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Fords first five runs netted 7 yards (-2, 7, -2, 4, 0.) Hunt's first run went for -2. (yeah, I missed a series. Hunt had some positive runs before this. Missed the FG drive)

Those numbers would seem to indicate that the Ravens were playing to stop the run early.

Last edited by Bull_Dawg; 10/01/23 09:21 PM. Reason: missed a run going through the play by play that I noticed on tape. Edit2: I really suck at going through the play by play. Need to stick to film.

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Originally Posted by Milk Man
j/c...




Those numbers are interesting. I need to watch the tape. I wonder how the success rate out of empty compared to other formations today.


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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Fords first four runs netted 0 yards (-2,-2,4, 0.) Hunt's first run went for -2.

Those numbers would seem to indicate that the Ravens were playing to stop the run early.

We should have given up on the run and put it all on the arm of an unproven Rookie...oh wait..


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Originally Posted by DaveyD
Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Fords first four runs netted 0 yards (-2,-2,4, 0.) Hunt's first run went for -2.

Those numbers would seem to indicate that the Ravens were playing to stop the run early.

We should have given up on the run and put it all on the arm of an unproven Rookie...oh wait..


Yeah, I dunno. DTR's deep balls were all ugly and short.

I think this may have been as much about trying to figure out what DTR could do as the run game not working. Hopefully, this isn't an indication that Watson could be down for awhile.


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Very happy I couldn't watch the game today... I taped it but will not watch it... hoping Watson gets healthy..


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Originally Posted by jaybird
Very happy I couldn't watch the game today... I taped it but will not watch it... hoping Watson gets healthy..
I watched it, after losing 4 pounds doing 2 softball games. Wife recorded it. I got home, she left to go to a movie. Showered, then watched.

When my wife got home she asked if I had watched it. Yes, the whole thing. She said "I wanted to tell you to not watch it, but I didn't want to ruin it for you."

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Why wouldn’t they load up to stop the run? Some dawgs wanted DTR. Well, they got him.

Baker has the Bucs 3-1 and alone in first place, btw. Just saying.


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I felt the dread of numbness that I had felt too many times since 1999 ... it's a feeling that I was hoping was gone


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Originally Posted by Milk Man
j/c...


Those numbers are interesting. I need to watch the tape. I wonder how the success rate out of empty compared to other formations today.

We ran like 6 in a row in the mid 2nd. Most were quick easy short gain completions.("extended handoffs" almost.) One was an Njoku 1st down. One was a bad miss of an open receiver (Ford). The drive ender got batted down by Van Noy but there had been an open receiver (Moore.)

7:48 3rd qtr 1st down to Cooper (~16 yds.) Immediately following was a Wills false start to get us behind the chains.

A couple plays later on 2nd and 15 was a 13 yard completion out of empty to Moore where he got his helmet ripped off.

~4:35 3rd quarter went empty and Teller got beat quickly for the play where they ruled DTR's knee was down before he escaped and threw it away.

Not an empty play, but the Teller holding call at the end of the 3rd quarter was pretty weak and would go uncalled 9 times out of 10, but was about a 20 yard swing. Negating a nice scramble for what would have been a 1st down, instead were backed up inside the 10. Followed by a sack where DTR held the ball too long. Followed by empty, not sure I like that one in that situation, but he scrambled for 7 yards. Following that was an incomplete pass (not out of empty- 3rd and 11) where DTR got hit after releasing the ball with forcible contact to the head that wasn't flagged. (13:30 4th qtr) Then the Ravens had too many men on the field and we were lined up to go for it, but had the false start on everyone but the center play (called on Jones.)

9 yard completion to Njoku on 1st and 10 at 10:37 in the 4th. Followed by another throw to Njoku out of empty for the short 1st down.

Those were all the empty plays. It seems we used it "so much" because it was one of the few things that was working for the most part.


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Jacoby Brissett and D'earnest Johnson may not have won today's game

But those were certainly 2 pieces that could have held the puzzle together and made this game much more competitive. 2 assets that you just can't replace easily.

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Originally Posted by Psydeffect
Jacoby Brissett and D'earnest Johnson may not have won today's game

But those were certainly 2 pieces that could have held the puzzle together and made this game much more competitive. 2 assets that you just can't replace easily.

Well, Brissett (he wasn't staying with the Browns anyways) is riding the bench in Washington and Johnson has a total of 8 yards this year for the Jags.


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Originally Posted by Psydeffect
Jacoby Brissett and D'earnest Johnson may not have won today's game

But those were certainly 2 pieces that could have held the puzzle together and made this game much more competitive. 2 assets that you just can't replace easily.

When you have one of the highest paid QBs in the league, it's hard to also have the highest paid backup QB. Brissett and Trubisky are tops at $8M. (link) DTR is making about 1/8 of what Brissett is. Unfortunately, sometimes you get what you pay for. But, we also have 3 more years of the cheap contract, and hopefully we won't have to see him again until he's ready. Lots of players have rough welcome to the NFL debuts before going on to be fine. We'll see. We're still at .500 and have the bye to get some things corrected. Negative plays and penalties put us in bad positions way too much.


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Originally Posted by lampdogg
Why wouldn’t they load up to stop the run? Some dawgs wanted DTR. Well, they got him.

Baker has the Bucs 3-1 and alone in first place, btw. Just saying.

I don't think there is any point in bringing up Baker. He wore out his welcome.
His fault or Stefanski's is a debate for another thread.

Our starting Qb yesterday should have been Josh Dobbs.
Do we win with Dobbs at Qb? Don't know.
But I would certainly have felt better about our chances.

I've said this before, DTR has a chance to develop into a pretty good Qb but he needs 3-4 years of bench time.
DTR should have been our 3rd Qb this season. When we traded Dobbs all I did was SMH


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We got stomped. Butt whipping.

Lamar was really good. DTR was really bad.

I was surprised DW did not play. When it was announced DW was not playing. I fully expected to lose. That is a hard situation for a rookie to play in his first game.

The game was never close. The defense played well at times but we got run on. Didn't tackle well. Lamar was dropping dimes and when it called for it he beat us with his legs.

No DW and no Nick Chubb equals losing. We are not good enough to win by losing those types of players.

When something does not work don't repeat doing it and expect a different result. Moore is a receiver not a running back.

Very hard to win games in the NFL when you turn it over.

The OL played poorly. Wills is getting worse not better.

Ford and Hunt are a long way from Nick Chubb. When you have a player that good and then he is gone. It leaves a giant hole.

The Browns have to get better at running or become a better passing team. I believe in rhythm passing to inventive precise routes. So far the Titan game has been the only game that has been close.

Have to give credit to the Ravens. They played great with a depleted roster. Lamar is really impressive.

We have a lot of work to do to become a good team especially on offense. The defense will bounce back.

I am sure glad I have the Braves to fall back on for enjoyment.

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I think our coaching staff was shocked that Watson said he couldn't go either


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Also: props to Hopkins, who continues to be steady. He made a really nice 52-54 yarder to save a drive


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted by Rishuz
Originally Posted by Dawgs4Life
DTR looked worse than Spergeon Wynn, Todd Philcox, etc

I don't agree with this. Everyone who has been harsh of their criticism of him also acknowledges his coach screwed him. So what's the truth? It's somewhere in the middle. DTR was bad. His coach was bad. He needs reps and experience.

And let's not forget that the reason Watson is hurt is because we had to turn him into a RB to get some value out of him because his passing was so bad. He rebounded a little to feast on one of the worst pass Ds in the league but my guess is if Watson played in this game it's a repeat of the Steelers game and maybe we win, maybe we don't...most likely we don't because well, Stefanski.

He's a rookie whatever-rounder QB that had 1 day of prep... 2 weeks after the main cog of the offense went down for the season. In hindsight, what we saw shouldn't be all that surprising. People losing their mind over DTR or Stefanski are just venting. There were zero options available.

IMO, if we are going to get mad it should be about having DTR as the only viable backup in this situation. This is NOT how playoff caliber teams operate.


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Originally Posted by Steubenvillian
Just back in the Ville coming from the game. My thoughts are that, without watson we had very little chance. We had good seats, and I can tell you it wasn't the line. DTR was holding the ball forever. He always seemed to be looking deep downfield. I didn't realize how small the dude is, but it was a factor. Those saying he has a big arm are foolish. He had nice zip on the short balls, but his arm is weak. Many of his long balls looked like punts, just hanging in the air, he is lucky they didn't have a couple more picks. No accuracy on the long ball. Guys were getting space off the line, but he was just holding the ball forever looking downfield. Ravens defense knew he woudn't be a threat long, and went after him.

As for the defense, some of the worst tackling I have seen. Looked like last year. The first quarter they were good, then the Ravens figured them out and the edges were left open. The same hole opened over who ever was playing LDT. They were riding him inside and the DE was crashing hard and it left a big hole everytime.

I don't know what went on with Watson, I heard it was his decision not to play. But they better have a better plan if Watson misses time. DTR is not ready for this, and honestly after seeing him live, I don't think he ever will be.

Good summary of what I saw too. Our DB's don't wrap up a ball carrier, just throw a shoulder and hope for the best. Moore should never touch the ball in the backfield again. There is no way DTR is 205 lbs. He looks more like 190-195 and is going to get hurt if he can't get the ball out faster.

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Our DBs have notoriously shoulder tackled, and Gus Edwards has preyed on that for years


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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For anyone clamoring earlier about DTR being a better option than Watson at this point, I think you now have your answer. It never fails how people equate to what they see in a preseason game as indicative to what can happen in a real NFL game. It's Groundhogs Day here at Dawgtalkers sometimes. DTR was terrible and perhaps one of the worst performances by a Browns QB in a long time....and that is saying something. And this is not to say he will end up being a bad backup QB...no, not at all. But there were so many bad things going on in his play that you knew the game was over after watching him a few series. He was chucking the ball for for a lucky catch or DPI and usually short by 10 yards. He locked on to his first read almost every time it seemed, and the defense read it like a book. He threw into double coverage a ton trying to force a completion and probably should have had 4 INTs on the day. Generally, poor decision-making across the board and just not ready, to say the least.

The comments blaming Stefanski are quite laughable to me. Anyone that saw DTR in the first few series of the game, and would be honest with themselves, new the game was essentially over by the end of the first quarter because he was starting. There was no way this offense was going to score any points in the running game as the Ravens D focused on stopping that aspect of the offense once Watson was ruled out. The fact we were down 14-3 with roughly 5 minutes to go in the first half, this team HAD to throw (even though it was to their detriment) with any chance to get back in this game because it wasn't going to happen with a steady amount of Ford and Hunt touches in the running game. Not with their DL and attention on the running game. Either our D needed to score on the offense's behalf or we had to get lucky with DTR throwing it. Neither happened.

I'm not giving the OL has much heat as others, though I will say they were inconsistent. I think there were times DTR had plenty of times to throw, other times not so much. I'm not sure if, what I assume will be, poor run blocking grades on the OL are a result of them or the backfield. I saw a lot of running lanes passed over for running outside that ultimately did not work.

I feel like I should give kudos to the Ravens coaches for having their team ready to play with so many injuries, but not sure I can do that with how poor DTR played and his terrible decision-making.

Lots of the players deemed busts by Berry around here have really begun to show themselves for the first quarter of the season- particularly Newsome, Delpit, and JOK. Maurice Hurst has been a FA steal so far. Myles is Myles. That said, I think our defense played nowhere near the intensity, speed, passion, and awareness like they did the first three weeks. Poor tackling, pursuit to the ball, etc just seemed second-rate to me. I think the Watson news deflated a bunch of players.

It always sucks much more losing to a AFC North rival and being 1-2 against them is not a good thing. I suppose the silver lining of the Steelers and Bengals losing helps a bit, but this team needs to heal up and regroup for what will be a very tough 49ers game.


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Good post.

The pre-season is by no means a place to look for the reality of the season. Ask the Steelers.

"Pickett has taken control of the offense." Right.

When the Ravens scored just before the half. My thought process was. I will watch the first series of the second half. After that it was a waste of time and I turned on the Braves game.

Before every season begins every team is evaluated like the starting roster is a given. When in actuality that is never the case. There are so many key injuries that teams basically fall apart.

Losing Chubb or any player that means so much to team. Is not next man up. You lose your starting quarterback like Rodgers. Kiss the season goodbye. Burrow is hurt. Pickett is no Ben.

Good luck predicting. Unless you are a fortune teller and know who will be injured.

DTR. Look at he record of quarterbacks starting their first NFL game. They never win.

The Browns much like any NFL team are not going to win many games when their starting qb does not play. Combine that with losing a player like Nick and what he brings to the table. Teams know Mr. Chubb has got to be accounted for. Take him off the team and force a rookie to throw. Predictable outcome.

Lamar was really good. In fact I have not seen him play better. The Ravens deserve credit. They outplayed us all over the field.

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Originally Posted by WingyWhit
Seen enough of Stefanski - Hire Eric Bieniemy.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

What has Washington done to warrant him being a HC? He was the OC in KC, yes, but he never called plays there. Reid is the mastermind of the KC offense. So Bieniemy has called plays for a total of 4 games in his career.

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The offense did just about as close to nothing as is possible in an NFL game. They just barely moved the ball enough to get a field goal. At what point during the game were they a threat to score?

Defense packed it in and I really can't blame them. Offense never showed any signs of life.


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Quote
They just barely moved the ball enough to get a field goal. At what point during the game were they a threat to score?

Never.


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that play to Moore that went -20 was literally a Laurel and Hardy play HAHA


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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You should have started a new thread titled "the Stefanski excuse thread" and started with that post.

Basically, we should never expect our HC to rise above a challenging situation and deliver results. We scapegoat any and everything to turn attention away from the HC. He doesn't have the right QB, he doesn't have the right assistant coaches, the schedule is brutal, injuries, blah, blah, blah.

Meanwhile, the Ravens were decimated with injuries and you couldn't tell at all. It's not like we are trotting out a JV team here. We have an uber talented team.

But Kev is only expected to produce results when everything is perfect. Got it.

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exactly ... Baltimore had tons of guys out too, and has a limited offense and just lost to Gardner Minshew ... yet they put it together and own us


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Because Baltimore is a team that has won, knows how to win so they overcome a lot of adversity. They have a good coach that knows how to win and overcome problems. We are still not at that level. We have talent but have not won and honestly have never been able to overcome adversity. Case in point, yesterday's game. We went from such a high last week with a dominant win and DW playing his best game as a Brown to yesterday's fiasco. I didn't think we would win after hearing that DW was out, but we could have put up better production on O with a better game plan. Having DTR throw that many times in his first start, and down the field to boot, was not a prudent game plan. Running the ball, short to medium throws, screens and quick slants is what I would have done. JMO

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Originally Posted by Rishuz
You should have started a new thread titled "the Stefanski excuse thread" and started with that post.

Basically, we should never expect our HC to rise above a challenging situation and deliver results. We scapegoat any and everything to turn attention away from the HC. He doesn't have the right QB, he doesn't have the right assistant coaches, the schedule is brutal, injuries, blah, blah, blah.

Meanwhile, the Ravens were decimated with injuries and you couldn't tell at all. It's not like we are trotting out a JV team here. We have an uber talented team.

But Kev is only expected to produce results when everything is perfect. Got it.

Originally Posted by Dawgs4Life
exactly ... Baltimore had tons of guys out too, and has a limited offense and just lost to Gardner Minshew ... yet they put it together and own us


Does this stuff really surprise you? There're people on this forum that have been making excuses every year for Stefanski. Two straight years with a losing record with each year's team sworn by posters here as being better than the previous year but ending with poorer results than the previous year. Yet year after year, we watch team after team deal with their injuries or missing players.

In 2021, it was all Mayfield's fault for getting injured and not Stefanski for playing an injured player who was clearly struggling. In 2022, all things went to hell because Watson was suspended for being a scumbag and the team could never win with a backup. Yet, when Stefanski made the QB change, the Browns saw little evidence of the player they furnished with a fully guaranteed $230 million. Buried under layers of rust, Watson initially disrupted a Cleveland offense that ranked fourth in DVOA through Week 12 before stumbling to 15th during Watson's six starts. The forum and Browns quickly switched their ire to focus on the poor defense making their defensive players and coach the scapegoat for all of 2022 problems. As for injuries, inexperienced QB's, or forced to use a backup - let's not forget, PIT finished ahead of the Browns with a rookie QB just last year. BAL finished ahead of the Browns with their starter missing 5 games and using a backup that performed worse than Brissett, just last year. SFO started a 7th round rookie QB only to win 5 straight games and lead the 49ers to an 13-4 record and play for the NFC Championship. Oh, let's not forget that Purdy is 4-0 in 2023 making him 9-0 as a regular season starter for the 49ers.

Right now, we have the worst or very close to the worst PFF Graded LT in the NFL, again. We have lost our star RB to injury with so what looks to be zero answers for that position. We have a sore shoulder QB (who IMHO has an injury compounded by all the negative press and social media he's receiving) that we have very little info as to the extent of the injury. We have zero answers for the backup QB nightmare. We continue to have a HC that has failed in every situation to meet a challenging situation every season since he''s been here. When the heck is this guy going to be expected to deliver results? If it has to be perfect, the Browns will never win the Super Bowl.

Last edited by steve0255; 10/02/23 11:48 AM. Reason: spelling

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hindsight is 20/20, but if I'm KS my thought process would have been strictly all field position ... do anything possible to make Baltimore start inside of their own 25 yard line all day long. Don't even think about making big plays on offense. Let the game be 9-6


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted by Psydeffect
Jacoby Brissett and D'earnest Johnson may not have won today's game

But those were certainly 2 pieces that could have held the puzzle together and made this game much more competitive. 2 assets that you just can't replace easily.

There are 230 million reasons they didn’t get extended.


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Why is it that Stefanski always seems to go away from what works in an attempt to "outsmart" the other coach? We've seen this so many times before. We had a few things going, we got a couple first downs and moved the ball those first few series. Then he runs Moore backwards, forces the rookie to throw long and the ship sank. He needs to give up play calling. He's not good at it.


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Well, we are seeing a pattern. Win one in style, lose one wildly. 8-8 should be attainable!

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Originally Posted by Rishuz
You should have started a new thread titled "the Stefanski excuse thread" and started with that post.

Basically, we should never expect our HC to rise above a challenging situation and deliver results. We scapegoat any and everything to turn attention away from the HC. He doesn't have the right QB, he doesn't have the right assistant coaches, the schedule is brutal, injuries, blah, blah, blah.

Meanwhile, the Ravens were decimated with injuries and you couldn't tell at all. It's not like we are trotting out a JV team here. We have an uber talented team.

But Kev is only expected to produce results when everything is perfect. Got it.

When you're missing your on field leader at every offensive position group except WR and that WR is more or less known for not being very vocal, it presents different challenges. (I did forget TE. At the same time Njoku was dealing with a health issue)

The Ravens have injuries, but they had their QB and leader. He's the one that made plays.

We had a rather massive on the field leadership void. Kev can't go out on the field with them during drives.

There's a reason "cutting the head off the snake" is a widespread tactic. We looked like a headless snake (or chicken) out there on Sunday.


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Originally Posted by jfanent
Why is it that Stefanski always seems to go away from what works in an attempt to "outsmart" the other coach? We've seen this so many times before. We had a few things going, we got a couple first downs and moved the ball those first few series. Then he runs Moore backwards, forces the rookie to throw long and the ship sank. He needs to give up play calling. He's not good at it.
and this is DEFINITELY a pattern ... happens almost every game in his tenure


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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I didn't read through this thread but I certainly did read enough to get the overall tone.

First I'll address the point of "the defense was gassed". The Ravens time of possession was a whopping 20 seconds longer than the Browns. That's right. No matter what the perception was when you watched the game, the TOP was almost exactly even. The two D's were on the field almost exactly the same amount of time.

Second I'll address the fact that DTR was the back-up QB. That decision was made by the FO in terms of letting Dobbs go, that's not the HC's decision. So if people wish to blame the team for being in that position, place the blame where it belongs.

Next I'll address the play calling. The only RB that had any production on a per carry basis was Strong. And all one needs to do is look at what point in the game that production came to figure out why. It was garbage time. And while I will say the run vs pass play calling could have been balanced better, my assertion is that it wouldn't have actually made any difference either way.

Baltimore has a great D and their coaches have long established systems. People would have to believe that Baltimore didn't realize that DTR was starting and didn't game plan for that to believe their D wasn't designed to stop the run and force DTR to beat them with his arm. So to me the argument people are making is that somehow Stefanski should have designed his game plan to make an attempt to run plays that Baltimore was designed to stop because of the box being stacked and playing up close to stop short passes.

The results of which would end up being six of one and one half of the other. It was a lose/lose proposition either way. The way I see it is that people are upset by which plays he called that would have produced equal results. That people would have preferred the Browns lost by trying to run in the face of an opposing D that was specifically designed to stop that run rather than by passing the ball. So it's more about how the browns lost rather than the fact they lost.

Chubb isn't playing.

As far as DTR being washed up or sucking? He is a fifth round draft pick with zero NFL game experience. It's a once in a generation find when you get a Tom Brady or Josh Purdy. I'm really not sure what more people expected. The kid has shown some tangibles that can be developed. He's not ready for prime time. The fact people expected more at this point in time is on them. It was their own unrealistic expectations that has lead to their own disappointment. The people who put this team into this position are sitting behind their desks in the FO while watching the fan base pointing their fingers elsewhere.


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#Browns Kevin Stefanski said Deshaun Watson was medically cleared to play and that it was his call. He said Watson knows his body best and felt like he couldn't go.


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Ethan Pocic (knee, chest) & Myles Garrett (foot) are day to day, per coach.


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Please get real. Fine you hate Stefanski.

Tell me the Chiefs beat the Jets without Mahomes.

So a fifth round rookie quarterback playing in his first game is going to beat the Ravens or any other team? Fact check how many games are won by rookies playing their first game?

If your expectations were we would win with DTR starting. No need to say more.

KS didn't help things. I will say that. Moore is not a running back. He is a slot receiver. But play calling is not why the game was lost. If you think that. You are mistaken. Play the tape and show me a good throw. Tell me all about how well the OL played.

Tell me how many games you expect to win when you are turning the ball over?

Let's review. The best player on the team is gone for the year. So the next man is going to replace that?

The starting quarterback is replaced by a 5th round rookie making his first start. And he is going to beat going into the game the second ranked defense? Ok then.

But I am making excuses.

So make your sign to fire Stefanski and walk around the Berea complex.

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This pretty much encapsulates the mindset of posters here within hours after a loss and the subsequent tone in their comments Sunday afternoon/night.



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When we lost Chubb, we lost the season.

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I am going into post season baseball mode.

One last thing regarding the game.

There was very little to like except for a few players. The guy that I was most impressed by was Njoku.

Burns hurt. They don't heal fast either. But forget that. I am talking about how he played like nothing happened.

David Njoku has made himself a complete player. I really admire him. He was once the worst blocker I have ever seen. Now he is fantastic. I mean really good. His positioning. His energy. His willingness to engage and win.

I have become a fan of his. It took awhile. But IMO he is a really good player. I hope he gets used more in the passing game.

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Stefanski's game plan was for Watson and he forced DTR to try and play it and failed miserably. To not fault Stefanski is laughable to me. This game reminded me of the our game against the Bears and Justin Fields' debut.


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"No plan survives contact with the enemy."

We ran the ball the first play. A penalty brought it back (hold Cooper.) We had a successful scramble. A penalty brought it back. (Hold Teller) We lost two yards on multiple runs. We had false starts.

When you're in bad down and distance situations and the other team is still going hard after the run, it's hard to keep calling running plays.

I don't think what we saw "was the plan." Unfortunately, the other team makes plans, too. If their plan was to stop what your plan was to try to do, you have to adapt. If their plan was to make the QB beat them, and your QB plays poorly, it's going to be a rough day.


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Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Well, we are seeing a pattern. Win one in style, lose one wildly. 8-8 should be attainable!

Agreed, and my frustration matches yours. Years of tanking, embarrassment, hopelessness, and a zero win season. And 8-9 or 9-8 is all we’ll have to show for it. Unreal. And again, kudos to the people who love this team enough to buy tickets. My buddy’s dad just added up what he’s spent on tickets alone since 1999. 3 in the uppers… Over 45,000 bucks. That’s not counting parking, beer, and food.

Unreal how tolerant this fan base has become for this crap.

Just wait until the 49ers drop us to 2-3.

Oh yeah and after yesterday, my buddy’s dad is through buying tickets. He’s ticked off because he could have bought a nice boat with the money that he’s spent on this garbage.

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Originally Posted by Dawgs4Life
I think our coaching staff was shocked that Watson said he couldn't go either

I don't think that. I think it was a 50/50 deal all week. Take each day at a time. It got to the morning of gameday and it as decided he couldn't go. No doubt I am sure everybody was hoping he could go.


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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Originally Posted by Rishuz
You should have started a new thread titled "the Stefanski excuse thread" and started with that post.

Basically, we should never expect our HC to rise above a challenging situation and deliver results. We scapegoat any and everything to turn attention away from the HC. He doesn't have the right QB, he doesn't have the right assistant coaches, the schedule is brutal, injuries, blah, blah, blah.

Meanwhile, the Ravens were decimated with injuries and you couldn't tell at all. It's not like we are trotting out a JV team here. We have an uber talented team.

But Kev is only expected to produce results when everything is perfect. Got it.

When you're missing your on field leader at every offensive position group except WR and that WR is more or less known for not being very vocal, it presents different challenges. (I did forget TE. At the same time Njoku was dealing with a health issue)

The Ravens have injuries, but they had their QB and leader. He's the one that made plays.

We had a rather massive on the field leadership void. Kev can't go out on the field with them during drives.

There's a reason "cutting the head off the snake" is a widespread tactic. We looked like a headless snake (or chicken) out there on Sunday.

I agree. I am not making excuses, but when a teams starting QB is out, they are at maybe a 60-70% disadvantage.

Add it it's a rookie making his first game appearance, you have to be an idiot to think he was going to move the team up and down the field. Sometimes I think that people around here don't even watch football.


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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Sometimes I think that people around here don't even watch football.

This is my thought as well.

Why not be comfortable with going 3 and out and playing the field position game? You finally have a great defense that make that a real possibility. Maybe you get lucky and the Ravens turn the ball over giving Cleveland a short field. Maybe you lose 9-6. No one on here would be griping if we lost 9-6 considering the circumstances. But the head coach called the game like DTR was Watson, a six year vet, and never, not once, adjusted. He just kept doubling down on it. He secured the loss instead of giving the Browns a chance to win. This is obvious to anyone who watched the game. I can only assume opinions that differ from this are from people who read about the game afterward.

I don't hate Stefanski. I hate losing. I hate leadership that doesn't prioritize winning. I hate losing even more with a team as talented as this one. We are headed for another 7-10 season and the pro Stefanski guys can't get enough of coming up short, being owned by the Steelers and Ravens, no division titles, etc., etc.

Stefanski is not a winner. His comments today only solidified that.

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Ballpeen, help me remember. How did Joshua dobbs end up leaving us and going to Arizona. He is starting for them though I am not sure how he is doing. But I do not think he would have given us that crap show of an offense.

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Originally Posted by Rishuz
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Sometimes I think that people around here don't even watch football.

This is my thought as well.

Why not be comfortable with going 3 and out and playing the field position game? You finally have a great defense that make that a real possibility. Maybe you get lucky and the Ravens turn the ball over giving Cleveland a short field. Maybe you lose 9-6. No one on here would be griping if we lost 9-6 considering the circumstances. But the head coach called the game like DTR was Watson, a six year vet, and never, not once, adjusted. He just kept doubling down on it. He secured the loss instead of giving the Browns a chance to win. This is obvious to anyone who watched the game. I can only assume opinions that differ from this are from people who read about the game afterward.

I don't hate Stefanski. I hate losing. I hate leadership that doesn't prioritize winning. I hate losing even more with a team as talented as this one. We are headed for another 7-10 season and the pro Stefanski guys can't get enough of coming up short, being owned by the Steelers and Ravens, no division titles, etc., etc.

Stefanski is not a winner. His comments today only solidified that.

...how would going 3 and out every time help anything exactly? The Ravens had both 93 and 94 yard TD drives. We had them pinned inside the 10 twice and they scored anyway. Playing the field position game or "Playing not to lose" doesn't work in modern football. Rules are catered towards passing and offense. At some point you have to play to win and put up points.

You hate losing, but want the coach to give up on offense? That makes no sense.

Yes, there are times when the field position game is the prudent play during the game. It's not a winning plan for an entire game. It certainly won't work if you're already behind.

The days of 3 yards and a cloud of dust are long gone. Especially when you're regularly running for -2.


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Originally Posted by keithfromxenia
Ballpeen, help me remember. How did Joshua dobbs end up leaving us and going to Arizona. He is starting for them though I am not sure how he is doing. But I do not think he would have given us that crap show of an offense.

Sadly, sometimes FO's actually like their backup QBs as people and want them to be successful. When an opportunity for that guy to get a chance to a starter's gig is presented along with trade compensation, sometimes they ask that guy what he wants to do.


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Ball well said and to the others who stated similar opinions.

The only chance Cleveland had was for the defense to turn turnovers into 6 points.

Even with Dobbs or Jacoby, neither is beating the Ravens not having Chubb.

Stefanski did not have a great game, but for the love of football, how do you go into a gunfight with one bullet?

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unfortunately, our defense just hasn't forced (or been lucky enough) to generate TO's


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted by keithfromxenia
Ballpeen, help me remember. How did Joshua dobbs end up leaving us and going to Arizona. He is starting for them though I am not sure how he is doing. But I do not think he would have given us that crap show of an offense.

He was traded to AZ. and he is playing well.

Just my opinion here..we cut josh near the end of last season, then signed him back in the off season...the opinion part is i think we brought him back with the sole intent on trading the guy.


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Originally Posted by Rishuz
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Sometimes I think that people around here don't even watch football.

This is my thought as well.

Why not be comfortable with going 3 and out and playing the field position game? You finally have a great defense that make that a real possibility. Maybe you get lucky and the Ravens turn the ball over giving Cleveland a short field. Maybe you lose 9-6. No one on here would be griping if we lost 9-6 considering the circumstances. But the head coach called the game like DTR was Watson, a six year vet, and never, not once, adjusted. He just kept doubling down on it. He secured the loss instead of giving the Browns a chance to win. This is obvious to anyone who watched the game. I can only assume opinions that differ from this are from people who read about the game afterward.

I don't hate Stefanski. I hate losing. I hate leadership that doesn't prioritize winning. I hate losing even more with a team as talented as this one. We are headed for another 7-10 season and the pro Stefanski guys can't get enough of coming up short, being owned by the Steelers and Ravens, no division titles, etc., etc.

Stefanski is not a winner. His comments today only solidified that.

I might not agree with some of what you say, but I do agree that the gameplan for that QB on that day needed to pivot. I don't rant about playcalling all that much, but Stefanski needed to huddle the team up and tell them the gameplan was going to be modified once it was clear that Watson was out. More base O was going to becalled and less of the razzle dazzle type plays.

We could have done more to insulate DTR


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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by keithfromxenia
Ballpeen, help me remember. How did Joshua dobbs end up leaving us and going to Arizona. He is starting for them though I am not sure how he is doing. But I do not think he would have given us that crap show of an offense.

He was traded to AZ. and he is playing well.

Just my opinion here..we cut josh near the end of last season, then signed him back in the off season...the opinion part is i think we brought him back with the sole intent on trading the guy.

IMO, we traded him because:

(1) The FO believed the difference between the two players' talent was not that big of a gap and preferred a younger guy with potential upside over a relatively known asset in Dobbs' skill set (this could end up being a wrong assessment by the FO).
(2) We got a decent draft capital upgrade back for Dobbs as far as journeymen backup QBs are concerned (wish we could have got a 3rd rounder like Dorsey forked over for Tyrod Taylor, tho! rofl ) #TrustTheGut
(3) If either of those guys are playing any significant time, it means Watson is most likely out for the year and the season is done for as far as playoffs are concerned.
(4) Trading Dobbs freed up more money to potentially rollover. It's a small amount as far as NFL contracts are concerned, and most likely not the main reason for the trade, but I think was weighed in to some degree.

LIke some reporters said, Terry PLuto specifically, they were not shopping Dobbs and had every intention to keep him. They liked the deal and the offseason progression of DTR. Plus, Dobbs was on a one-year deal. It's not like there was any long-term plans by the FO, or by him for that matter.


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Originally Posted by DaveyD
Stefanski's game plan was for Watson and he forced DTR to try and play it and failed miserably. To not fault Stefanski is laughable to me. This game reminded me of the our game against the Bears and Justin Fields' debut.

FWIW, I don't understand these types of takes. Our starting QB ruled himself out and gave our whatever-round rookie a day to prepare to start. Normally we'd lean harder on our run game, but that option was taken off the table 2 weeks ago.

What's this magical plan you all are talking about that would allow an offense without it's main running AND passing cogs to beat a very good defense?

IMO, if we're going to hold Stefanski's feet to the fire, it's going to be over the apparent lack of accountability on the offensive side of the ball. How many times did we shoot ourselves in the foot with penalties negating the few gains we had out there? We have the opposite of a "do your job" mentality. The only way we were going to hang in that game was to play clean football and we did the opposite. I believe that if our D had seen anything even resembling signs of life from our offense, we would've seen even more from them.


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Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by keithfromxenia
Ballpeen, help me remember. How did Joshua dobbs end up leaving us and going to Arizona. He is starting for them though I am not sure how he is doing. But I do not think he would have given us that crap show of an offense.

He was traded to AZ. and he is playing well.

Just my opinion here..we cut josh near the end of last season, then signed him back in the off season...the opinion part is i think we brought him back with the sole intent on trading the guy.

IMO, we traded him because:

(1) The FO believed the difference between the two players' talent was not that big of a gap and preferred a younger guy with potential upside over a relatively known asset in Dobbs' skill set (this could end up being a wrong assessment by the FO).
(2) We got a decent draft capital upgrade back for Dobbs as far as journeymen backup QBs are concerned (wish we could have got a 3rd rounder like Dorsey forked over for Tyrod Taylor, tho! rofl ) #TrustTheGut
(3) If either of those guys are playing any significant time, it means Watson is most likely out for the year and the season is done for as far as playoffs are concerned.
(4) Trading Dobbs freed up more money to potentially rollover. It's a small amount as far as NFL contracts are concerned, and most likely not the main reason for the trade, but I think was weighed in to some degree.

LIke some reporters said, Terry PLuto specifically, they were not shopping Dobbs and had every intention to keep him. They liked the deal and the offseason progression of DTR. Plus, Dobbs was on a one-year deal. It's not like there was any long-term plans by the FO, or by him for that matter.

I do agree we would have kept him, but obviously we were happy when we got the trade offer. I just think we were kind of banking on that offer to trade. We are still down picks next draft, so every pick counts. If we have learned anything about this FO is that draft capital is important.

I also think the 1 year deal plays in to that.

I also agree that if a team with high expectations ends up having to ply the back-up QB, the season is doomed. Poor teams can get away with playing the back-up because the starter is marginal at best.

In my lifetime of being a fan, I can't think of many back-ups who came in a saved a season. Maybe Fitzpatrick...he won some games as a back-up. Earl Morrall saved a Dolphins season when Griese went down, but earl had been a good QB for many years before that. I am also not talking about the few times a team had a QB in wait, like Favre/Rodgers or Montana/Young.

I am sure there are a few others that escape my recall at the moment, but it's pretty slim picking. Heck, Bernie came in and won some important games when Aikman was laid up, but again, he wasn't your typical back-up.


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I both cursed and laughed at that video....


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What you do is give DTR half the field to read.
He has as 1st read the na 2nd read
If nothing open then he either runs or throws the ball away.

That is what the steelers did the 1st season roethlisberger took the field
That is what the patriots did when brady took the field.


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Originally Posted by oobernoober
Originally Posted by DaveyD
Stefanski's game plan was for Watson and he forced DTR to try and play it and failed miserably. To not fault Stefanski is laughable to me. This game reminded me of the our game against the Bears and Justin Fields' debut.

FWIW, I don't understand these types of takes. Our starting QB ruled himself out and gave our whatever-round rookie a day to prepare to start. Normally we'd lean harder on our run game, but that option was taken off the table 2 weeks ago.

What's this magical plan you all are talking about that would allow an offense without it's main running AND passing cogs to beat a very good defense?

IMO, if we're going to hold Stefanski's feet to the fire, it's going to be over the apparent lack of accountability on the offensive side of the ball. How many times did we shoot ourselves in the foot with penalties negating the few gains we had out there? We have the opposite of a "do your job" mentality. The only way we were going to hang in that game was to play clean football and we did the opposite. I believe that if our D had seen anything even resembling signs of life from our offense, we would've seen even more from them.

Obviously the game was deeply disappointing for any browns fan. I think peoples opinion on how much to criticize KS might depend mostly on their opinions before the game, ive long been concerned about his play calling, lack of adjustments in game and the way he consistently gets too cute. Watching him put DTR in a position to consistently fail and potentially lose us the game through turnovers is a big negative for me .... ive seen folks talk about the run game not working. Well that might be true, but i'd rather see two series of three and outs on 6 run plays and then play field position battle than watch plays call that simply made DTR look like the worst QB we've had in the last 23 years. As Jester just said, id rather see a roll out and have DTR on the move and looking at 1\2 the field ALA early Baker years... give him clear and simple reads. 1, 2 if neither is open run if theres any crease or throw it away if a defender is within 2 or 3 yards of you. I' d rather see 19 runs for 2 yards than 19 incompletions/sacks and interceptions. Belichick had his QB throw the ball 3 times in a game once, i could live with that if it gave you a better chance of winning / keeping the game within 7-10 points going into Q4.

All water under the bridge but one more game KS looked like an inept play caller. I will continue to hope he turns over the responsibility.


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Originally Posted by Jester
What you do is give DTR half the field to read.
He has as 1st read the na 2nd read
If nothing open then he either runs or throws the ball away.

That is what the steelers did the 1st season roethlisberger took the field
That is what the patriots did when brady took the field.

I agree. That is what i was talking about with running more RPO's a rollouts. Take the easy throws, toss it away since you are out of pocket, or run and get what you can safely get.


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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by Jester
What you do is give DTR half the field to read.
He has as 1st read the na 2nd read
If nothing open then he either runs or throws the ball away.

That is what the steelers did the 1st season roethlisberger took the field
That is what the patriots did when brady took the field.

I agree. That is what i was talking about with running more RPO's a rollouts. Take the easy throws, toss it away since you are out of pocket, or run and get what you can safely get.


Hard to completely change your offense in a week. Especially when players are still messing up base plays.


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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by Jester
What you do is give DTR half the field to read.
He has as 1st read the na 2nd read
If nothing open then he either runs or throws the ball away.

That is what the steelers did the 1st season roethlisberger took the field
That is what the patriots did when brady took the field.

I agree. That is what i was talking about with running more RPO's a rollouts. Take the easy throws, toss it away since you are out of pocket, or run and get what you can safely get.


Hard to completely change your offense in a week. Especially when players are still messing up base plays.

True, but it is also hard to run your O when the QB can't run it. DTR is limited, thus the plan needs to be somewhat limited if he has to play. Those plays are already a part of the playbook.

Even if you don't do any of that, the OC has to just cross off a few plays and not call them. DTR was trying to sit there like peyton manning in the pocket. Coach needed to tell him 1 read, 2 read, run.


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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
True, but it is also hard to run your O when the QB can't run it. DTR is limited, thus the plan needs to be somewhat limited if he has to play. Those plays are already a part of the playbook.

Even if you don't do any of that, the OC has to just cross off a few plays and not call them. DTR was trying to sit there like peyton manning in the pocket. Coach needed to tell him 1 read, 2 read, run.

Is DTR incapable of running it? Or did it just not work out this day? Bad days happen, this was quite the bad one, but only a sample of one all the same.

DTR was a 5 year starter in Chip Kelly's offense at UCLA. A lot of that offense allegedly translated to the Browns' offense. link

There was a combination of him trying to do too much and a lot of different things going wrong around him. He admitted after the game that he was pressing. Unfortunately, we lacked the leadership on the field for someone to calm him (and everybody else) down in the huddle. Supposedly Chubb had a thing for keeping guys loose in the huddle IIRC (Remember being a bit surprised when I came across that nugget.)

I think DTR can do what we need(ed) him to do. Getting him to do it consistently is the challenge. I.e, he knows to hit the checkdowns (and can), but for whatever reason he was looking to get it all back at once on Sunday. Stuck on things longer than he should or does in practice.

Sometimes what you see on the practice field doesn't show up on game day. Hopefully this ends up being an aberration. (And Watson gets and stays healthy.)

Copium? Could be.


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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
True, but it is also hard to run your O when the QB can't run it. DTR is limited, thus the plan needs to be somewhat limited if he has to play. Those plays are already a part of the playbook.

Even if you don't do any of that, the OC has to just cross off a few plays and not call them. DTR was trying to sit there like peyton manning in the pocket. Coach needed to tell him 1 read, 2 read, run.

Is DTR incapable of running it? Or did it just not work out this day? Bad days happen, this was quite the bad one, but only a sample of one all the same.

DTR was a 5 year starter in Chip Kelly's offense at UCLA. A lot of that offense allegedly translated to the Browns' offense. link

There was a combination of him trying to do too much and a lot of different things going wrong around him. He admitted after the game that he was pressing. Unfortunately, we lacked the leadership on the field for someone to calm him (and everybody else) down in the huddle. Supposedly Chubb had a thing for keeping guys loose in the huddle IIRC (Remember being a bit surprised when I came across that nugget.)

I think DTR can do what we need(ed) him to do. Getting him to do it consistently is the challenge. I.e, he knows to hit the checkdowns (and can), but for whatever reason he was looking to get it all back at once on Sunday. Stuck on things longer than he should or does in practice.

Sometimes what you see on the practice field doesn't show up on game day. Hopefully this ends up being an aberration. (And Watson gets and stays healthy.)

Copium? Could be.


Can he run it? I think he can. Just not now. You have to bring a QB along in stages. Once he can do this, you move on the the next.

As a coach you have to try to slow the game down for a young QB. You can't go out there and throw the ball around 40 times with a wide open playbook.
No doubt Stefanski was trying to win the game, but you also have to stick to a play set the QB can perform.


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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by Jester
What you do is give DTR half the field to read.
He has as 1st read the na 2nd read
If nothing open then he either runs or throws the ball away.

That is what the steelers did the 1st season roethlisberger took the field
That is what the patriots did when brady took the field.

I agree. That is what i was talking about with running more RPO's a rollouts. Take the easy throws, toss it away since you are out of pocket, or run and get what you can safely get.


Hard to completely change your offense in a week. Especially when players are still messing up base plays.



This isn't completely changing the offense. It is simplifying it.

Instead of making a 5th round rookie Qb look over the whole field, you run the same play but cut the field in half for the Qb
Instead of having him try to read a complicated disguised defense, you have him read 1-2 players
Instead of having him stand in the pocket and look at the 4th to 5th read in a play, you get him into the open and after 1-2 reads he runs or throws it away.

This is not completely changing the offense.
This is a simple easy change.

Last edited by Jester; 10/04/23 09:20 AM.

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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by Jester
What you do is give DTR half the field to read.
He has as 1st read the na 2nd read
If nothing open then he either runs or throws the ball away.

That is what the steelers did the 1st season roethlisberger took the field
That is what the patriots did when brady took the field.

I agree. That is what i was talking about with running more RPO's a rollouts. Take the easy throws, toss it away since you are out of pocket, or run and get what you can safely get.


Hard to completely change your offense in a week. Especially when players are still messing up base plays.

Not a week. A day.


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Originally Posted by Jester
Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by Jester
What you do is give DTR half the field to read.
He has as 1st read the na 2nd read
If nothing open then he either runs or throws the ball away.

That is what the steelers did the 1st season roethlisberger took the field
That is what the patriots did when brady took the field.

I agree. That is what i was talking about with running more RPO's a rollouts. Take the easy throws, toss it away since you are out of pocket, or run and get what you can safely get.


Hard to completely change your offense in a week. Especially when players are still messing up base plays.



This isn't completely changing the offense. It is simplifying it.

Instead of making a 5th round rookie Qb look over the whole field, you run the same play but cut the field in half for the Qb
Instead of having him try to read a complicated disguised defense, you have him read 1-2 players
Instead of having him stand in the pocket and look at the 4th to 5th read in a play, you get him into the open and after 1-2 reads he runs or throws it away.

This is not completely changing the offense.
This is a simple easy change.

Unfortunately, you can't just change to half field reads without throwing off the timing of all the route progressions. He still could (should?) have run or thrown it away within the system he'd been practicing since being drafted.

Another issue is DTR might already have more game reps throwing than Ford does running. He probably doesn't, but Ford isn't exactly a savvy veteran either. He doesn't have many live game carries and was hurt a lot of camp. Hunt is still getting into football shape. Those things make it harder to lean on the run game.


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Of course you can. You might not be able to call all the same plays. You can't call plays that require a clear out and somebody running some drag route in to the clear zone.

You have to remember, we are talking about a guy who played against 3rd stringers and no stringers in the preseason. You are expecting as big ask my man, and so was coach...and the results prove my point.

He wasn't ready to do that.

I don't think you can say DTR did a good job of things, so what are we talking about here?? The evidence is on my side, so I don't know what else to tell you.


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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Of course you can. You might not be able to call all the same plays. You can't call plays that require a clear out and somebody running some drag route in to the clear zone.

You have to remember, we are talking about a guy who played against 3rd stringers and no stringers in the preseason. You are expecting as big ask my man, and so was coach...and the results prove my point.

He wasn't ready to do that.

I don't think you can say DTR did a good job of things, so what are we talking about here?? The evidence is on my side, so I don't know what else to tell you.

He's also a guy that likely was practicing against our 1st stringers. We don't really know what he has been looking like in practice.


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I'm still not understanding why more of the focus is on Stefanski for the situation he found himself in rather than the people who put him in that situation.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Of course you can. You might not be able to call all the same plays. You can't call plays that require a clear out and somebody running some drag route in to the clear zone.

You have to remember, we are talking about a guy who played against 3rd stringers and no stringers in the preseason. You are expecting as big ask my man, and so was coach...and the results prove my point.

He wasn't ready to do that.

I don't think you can say DTR did a good job of things, so what are we talking about here?? The evidence is on my side, so I don't know what else to tell you.

He's also a guy that likely was practicing against our 1st stringers. We don't really know what he has been looking like in practice.

That is true too. Practice reps and games reps are a bit different.

I am not saying DTR shouldn't have played. I am just saying that Stefanski should have altered the script a bit to get the guy in to the game.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
I'm still not understanding why more of the focus is on Stefanski for the situation he found himself in rather than the people who put him in that situation.

Nobody put him in that situation. The situation happened. If you are talking about if he needed a better back-up, I am not going down that rabbit hole.
What if's aren't the discussion here.

I haven't been a big Stefanski detractor, or one at all, nor do I want him fired, but the plan last week wasn't the right plan for the QB he had to play.


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Was the problem the plan or the execution of the plan? Probably some of both. I lean towards execution. It's hard for a plan to account for OL immediately whiffing on blocks or blocking the wrong people, or a receiver running 20 yards the wrong direction, or your veteran receiver randomly tugging on a DBs arm like he's trying to ask him a question instead of blocking him and getting called for holding. It was a weird game. It's like they used spray paint to change the white helmets back to orange and everyone was high from the fumes (I know not literally.)


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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Of course you can. You might not be able to call all the same plays. You can't call plays that require a clear out and somebody running some drag route in to the clear zone.

You have to remember, we are talking about a guy who played against 3rd stringers and no stringers in the preseason. You are expecting as big ask my man, and so was coach...and the results prove my point.

He wasn't ready to do that.

I don't think you can say DTR did a good job of things, so what are we talking about here?? The evidence is on my side, so I don't know what else to tell you.

He's also a guy that likely was practicing against our 1st stringers. We don't really know what he has been looking like in practice.

That is true too. Practice reps and games reps are a bit different.

I am not saying DTR should not have played. I am just saying that Stefanski should have altered the script a bit to get the guy in to the game.

Stefanski and Co.. choked. Were the Browns going to beat the Ravens with DTR? Unlikely. Did Stefanski fail at his job by not having an alternative gameplan for DTR? Yes.

It was an egregious miscalculation assuming Watson was going to play.

Stefanski screwed up.... he's a young coach. Let it be a learning opportunity not to be repeated.

Jake Burns podcast discusses this at length. It's worth a listen..

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podca...drew-spayde/id1434698084?i=1000630139446

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Quote
He’s ticked off because he could have bought a nice boat with the money that he’s spent on this garbage.


Definition of a boat: "a hole in the water that one pours money into."


Your buddy's Dad needs to re-examine his hobbies.

I follow the Browns. I cheer for the Browns. I routinely curse at the Browns.
I don't often spend money on the Browns.

I may be a fool, but I'm not one of the sort that will easily part with his money.


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This is stefanski's 4th season.
When does he stop being a young coach?


"Let it be a learning opportunity not to be repeated"
When has he demonstrated the ability to learn from his mistakes?


Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
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Originally Posted by Clemdawg
Quote
He’s ticked off because he could have bought a nice boat with the money that he’s spent on this garbage.


Definition of a boat: "a hole in the water that one pours money into."


Your buddy's Dad needs to re-examine his hobbies.

I follow the Browns. I cheer for the Browns. I routinely curse at the Browns.
I don't often spend money on the Browns.

I may be a fool, but I'm not one of the sort that will easily part with his money.

I never thought of it like this before, but the Cleveland Browns ARE a boat.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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Parting with money. I hear you there. I cannot break with the way I was raised. "Turn off the light."

I have always been a "do it yourself guy." No matter what went wrong. Paying someone else was a cardinal sin.

Now even at an advanced age. I still try to do it myself. Although I have had to come to grips with some things I can no longer do. I have ruled out going on the roof.

When it comes to sports paraphernalia. I have some hats and a jacket. I don't have anyone's jersey. I don't go to games.

I do still cheer and curse.

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Originally Posted by Jester
This is stefanski's 4th season.
When does he stop being a young coach?


"Let it be a learning opportunity not to be repeated"
When has he demonstrated the ability to learn from his mistakes?

Just because you don't see something, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

While it didn't look like it last week, he's an improvement over the other coaches we've had since the return. You can't simply look at the results of one week. Losing Chubb was sure to lead to a drop off. Not having Watson was sure to lead to a drop off.

If he keeps dropping off, without losing his best players, that's a problem. Let's see if the team can improve over the course of the season and peak at the right time.

I am a little worried about Watson's injury lingering. If so, Stefanski will likely end up getting the blame.

Good teams can struggle early in seasons. Look at the Chiefs, Eagles, Bengals, and Jaguars. They have had some struggles early. They didn't lose their top RBs and QBs and OTs.


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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Originally Posted by Jester
This is stefanski's 4th season.
When does he stop being a young coach?


"Let it be a learning opportunity not to be repeated"
When has he demonstrated the ability to learn from his mistakes?

Just because you don't see something, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
I agree, I am also asking if anyone else has seen anything.
Again that doesn't mean there hasn't been, but is highly suggestive that nothing significant has been learned


While it didn't look like it last week, he's an improvement over the other coaches we've had since the return. You can't simply look at the results of one week. Losing Chubb was sure to lead to a drop off. Not having Watson was sure to lead to a drop off.
Quite the low bar. And I am not looking at the results of one week. I am looking at the results of his 3+ year tenure.

If he keeps dropping off, without losing his best players, that's a problem. Let's see if the team can improve over the course of the season and peak at the right time.
I agree with waiting and seeing how this season plays out. I don't see the benefit of a team firing a coach mid-season unless the situation gets toxic or there is a HC that is unemployed that the team wants to hire so they fire the head coach shortly before the season ends to get a jump on hiring that guy over other teams

I am a little worried about Watson's injury lingering. If so, Stefanski will likely end up getting the blame.
If the Watson injury lingers, I won't blame stefanski. I do blame him for baker's injury lingering. I harped on it all that season so this is not hindsight is 20-20. Baker should have sat. People blame baker because he wanted to play but KS is the HC. He is the one who determines playing time. We now know that DW will sit himself if he cannot go. So if the watson injury lingers, the only way I would blame KS is if it comes to light that he pressured DW to play before DW felt he was ready

Good teams can struggle early in seasons. Look at the Chiefs, Eagles, Bengals, and Jaguars. They have had some struggles early. They didn't lose their top RBs and QBs and OTs.
True. Though we have had arguably 3 good seasons in the 22 years since the return. That hardly qualities us as a good team.


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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
I'm still not understanding why more of the focus is on Stefanski for the situation he found himself in rather than the people who put him in that situation.

Nobody put him in that situation. The situation happened. If you are talking about if he needed a better back-up, I am not going down that rabbit hole. What if's aren't the discussion here.

First it's not a rabbit hole and secondly it's certainly not a what if. It's a what happened. Decisions were made that created this situation and those decisions weren't Stefanski's. An obvious attempt to sidestep this which you made to address that is obvious. That isn't a what if. This is a situation that was manufactured and created by the powers that be.


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Originally Posted by Jester
Good teams can struggle early in seasons. Look at the Chiefs, Eagles, Bengals, and Jaguars. They have had some struggles early. They didn't lose their top RBs and QBs and OTs.
True. Though we have had arguably 3 good seasons in the 22 years since the return. That hardly qualities us as a good team.

Right, I'm just inferring that we could end up being one. It's too soon to tell.


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Originally Posted by Jester
"Let it be a learning opportunity not to be repeated"
When has he demonstrated the ability to learn from his mistakes?

In all honesty, he hasn't. He's been extremely rigid.

It's unfortunate.

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