DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Netanyahu says Israel is ‘at war’ as Palestinian militants launch surprise air and ground attack from Gaza

While the situation has definitely "gotten simpler" with Hamas invading and killing, the solution is still as complex as it ever was (though I doubt Israel wants to see it that way).

The Gaza strip is one of the most densely populated areas in the world, made up mostly of civilians. Civilians who's ancestors were displaced by Israel as an outcome of WW2. I'm not trying to make the argument that Israel should just take it, but the simple fact is that the people that are about to bear the brunt of this conflict are the civilians living in Gaza. That's a really sad thing to think about.

Along the lines of what swish said... it's somewhat comforting to hope that the white-hot light of international attention is going to be focused on Iran and its support of terrorism.

There is no new "nuclear deal with Iran". For anyone interested, here are some of the headlines at your "source"..........

People 'Celebrating' Attack on Israel, Rallies to Support Hamas Being Planned in US

Bombshell Report: Biden Now Two Degrees of Separation from Slaughter of Israelis

And you act like this is some sort of legitimate news source. If you actually believe that, it helps explain a lot of the twisted things you post on here and how quickly lies and conspiracy theories spread. It's become a disease.

I have no idea. I mean they were frozen by Carter in 1979. So they had been frozen for 44 years. I'm pretty sure if they can come up with an excuse to do it again they will.

But that word "involved" is a questionable wording with which I'm sure different people would consider differently. Does it mean giving Hamas weapons? Does it mean giving Hamas money? Does it mean being actively involved in the planning of this attack? Any or all of the above?

Kind of makes you think of the idiocy of the attackers too. I know they are beyond thinking practically or rationally, but they are out celebrating and galavanting with all kinds of human rights abuses, as if they don’t expect Israel to fiercely retaliate, which begets casualties - probably en masse - in the Gaza Strip. Things will not end well for them or their families.

The disease nowadays is that people are irrationally outraged at someone and want to spite that person. So when something bad happens, they find any sort of media source - credible or not - that helps their confirmation bias, regardless of the facts.

In this case, we could take the rational approach of realizing there was an attack and then try to dissect it factually, and then the chips fall where they will…or we could take the irrational approach of saying “Oh wow, there was something horrible that happened. Let me find a way to blame Joe Biden.”

The sad part about it too is that it takes even more energy and causes even further distraction when we not only have to pragmatically look at what happened, but we also have to spend time and energy focusing on what did NOT happen and fighting misinformation.

Israel retaliating with civilians in the crossfire is a boon to Hamas. These Israeli strikes will yield their next wave of new troops.

Yeah I certainly hope the civilian casualties are minimal. I just have the feeling Israel is taking the proverbial gloves off. I could be wrong.

I’m sorry, I’m having trouble figuring out what your second sentence means.

The Israel response (I too think that they're not going to hold back at all) is going to affect the civilian population there in such a way that Hamas recruiting is going to have a banner year.

Ahh I see what you’re saying now. Yeah that’s probably true 100%. Vicious cycle.

Civilian hostages will be executed if Gaza attacks continue without warning, Hamas says
From CNN’s Kareem El Damanhoury
link

The spokesperson of al Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of Hamas, said civilian hostages will be executed and the killings will be broadcasted if Israel targets people in Gaza without warning.

“We declare that we will respond to any targeting of our people who are safe in their homes without warning, with the execution of our civilian hostages, and we will broadcast it with audio and video,” Abu Obaida said in an audio statement that aired on Al Jazeera Arabic Monday.

Hamas claims it is holding more than 100 hostages, including Israeli army officers. Qatar has been in talks with Hamas about the hostages that the militant group is holding inside Gaza, a senior US official told CNN.



TRANSLATION....Hamas just admitted that those Israeli strikes are leaving a mark and might very well be something that Hamas was not counting on.

Israeli hostage crisis in Hamas-ruled Gaza becomes a political trap for Netanyahu

JERUSALEM (AP) — The capture of dozens of Israeli soldiers and civilians — elderly women, children, entire families — by Hamas militants has stirred Israeli emotions more viscerally than any crisis in the country’s recent memory and presented an impossible dilemma for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s far-right government.

The Islamist militant group’s 2006 seizure of a sole young conscript, Gilad Shalit, consumed Israeli society for years — a national obsession that prompted Israel to heavily bombard the Gaza Strip and ultimately release over 1,000 Palestinian prisoners, many of whom had been convicted of deadly attacks on Israelis, in exchange for Shalit’s freedom.

This time, Gaza’s Hamas rulers have abducted dozens of Israeli civilians and soldiers as part of a multipronged, shock attack on Saturday. Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a militant group smaller and more brazen than Hamas, said Sunday that it alone had seized 30 hostages.

Their captivity raises the heat on Netanyahu and his hawkish, far-right allies, who are already under intense pressure to respond to the killing of over 700 Israelis in the Hamas attack so far. Netanyahu’s vow to unleash the full force of the Israeli military on Hamas has raised fears for the safety of Israeli civilians spread in undisclosed locations across the densely populated Gaza Strip.

“It will limit the directions and areas that the IDF can be active,” Michael Milstein, a former head of the Palestinian department in Israeli military intelligence, said of the hostage situation. “It will make things much more complicated.”

Locating Israeli hostages in Gaza — something Israeli intelligence agencies failed to do in the case of Shalit — poses further challenges. Although Gaza is tiny, subject to constant aerial surveillance and surrounded by Israeli ground and naval forces, the territory just over an hour from Tel Aviv remains somewhat opaque to Israeli intelligence agencies, experts say.

“We don’t know where Israelis are sheltered,” said Yaakov Amidror, a former national security adviser to Netanyahu. “But this whole issue of captured Israelis will not stop Israel from bombing Gaza until Hamas is destroyed.”

Hamas already has said it seeks the release of all Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails — some 4,500 detainees, according to Israeli rights group B’Tselem — in exchange for the Israeli captives.

The fate of prisoners for Palestinians is perhaps just as emotional as it is for Israelis. With an estimated 750,000 Palestinians having passed through Israel prisons since Israel captured the West Bank in the 1967 Mideast war, most Palestinians have either spent time in Israeli jail or know someone who has. Israel sees them as terrorists, but Palestinians view detainees as heroes. The Palestinian Authority self-rule government, which administers parts of the occupied West Bank, devotes some 8% of its budget to supporting them and their families.

“The release of any prisoners would be a huge deal for Hamas,” said Khalil Shikaki, the director of the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research. “It would cement Hamas’ position in the Palestinian street and further diminish the strength and legitimacy” of the Palestinian Authority.

But Netanyahu’s government — with its powerful far-right religious ministers, including West Bank settlers — have fiercely opposed any gestures they view as capitulating to the Palestinians. There is “absolutely no chance” that the current government would agree to the release of Palestinian prisoners, said Gayil Talshir, a political scientist at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

“The radicals and extremists in this government want to flatten Gaza,” she said. Netanyahu on Saturday dismissed an offer by Yair Lapid, head of the opposition, to form an emergency national unity government.

It was a clear sign that Netanyahu “has not given up on his extremist nationalist government,” she said.

To win last year’s election while standing trial for corruption, Netanyahu relied on the surging popularity of his far-right allies who seized on perceived threats to Israel’s Jewish identity.

Israel’s powerful finance minister, settler leader Bezalel Smotrich, demanded at the Cabinet meeting late Saturday that the Israeli army “hit Hamas brutally and not take the matter of the captives into significant consideration.”

“In war you have to be brutal,” he was quoted as saying. “We need to deal a blow that hasn’t been seen in 50 years and take down Gaza.”

But the risk of Israeli civilians falling victim to relentless Israeli bombardment or languishing for years in Hamas captivity while Israel gets dragged into an open-ended campaign could also be politically ruinous for Netanyahu.

“This is a serious dilemma,” said veteran Israeli political commentator Ehud Yaari. “The fear is that if and when a ground operation kicks off, Hamas will threaten to execute hostages every hour, every two hours, and that will become a really heated debate.”

Israel’s tumultuous history has revealed the extreme sensitivity of public opinion when it comes to hostages — and therefore what a potent weapon abduction can be in a country where 18-year-olds are conscripted for military service, and the army prides itself on never abandoning its own.

“If we allow our people to be taken like this, we have no country, no government and no army,” said 58-year-old Tali Levy in the southern city of Ashdod near the Gaza border, who has several friends missing.

Families of Israelis missing after Saturday’s Hamas attack held a news conference Sunday evening that was televised live during prime time. Shaken relatives, some of them holding back tears or weeping, called on the government to bring home the captives.

In the past, Israeli society’s inability to tolerate its citizens being held captive has ignited massive public pressure campaigns, inducing governments to agree to disproportionate exchanges. This included the Schalit deal in 2011, and Israel’s release of 1,150 jailed Palestinians in exchange for three Israeli prisoners in 1985.

While military analysts remained divided on how Netanyahu would find a way out of his dilemma, the answer was painfully obvious to Israelis whose loved ones were taken hostage.

“I want them to do everything possible, to put their politics and the whole situation aside,” said Adva Adar, whose 85-year-old mother, Yaffa, was captured on video being hustled across the border into Gaza on a golf cart crammed with gunmen. Her voice cracked as she started to cry.

“She doesn’t have a lot of time left without her medicine and she is suffering very much,” she said.

https://apnews.com/article/palestin...CZa-OXLJGGm2zTfngRBYXPPt57E9ukyMV28DtMq0

Israel should reply to Hamas with release all prisoners within 24 hrs or you and all of your civilians will be toast.

NRTU, but maybe Day of the Dawg..

Geee.. We had a deal with Iran under Obama, broke it under Trump, and now you are wondering why Iran is funding Hamas and others.

Seems like the US can't keep its act together...

I'm not sure if it is really a valid point or not. We already have multiple fleets in different areas. A "Med cruise" is usually done by an Atlantic Fleet. Anything around China would be by a Pacific fleet. I did a few WestPAC "cruises" as part of a carrier group when I was stationed out of Japan. Pretty sure we still have FDNF stationed in Japan, it seems 7th Fleet is still there.

Pit, it is clear to all that Iran is behind Hamas. Our idea of hunanitariann and theor idea is different.


Do you think for a nano second that Iran is going to send humanitarian relief to Isarael? They fund terrorist networks because in their view that is humanitarian help.

When are you going to understand that they don't care? You are a sharp guy. How many of those folks have strapped bombs on their chest and deliberately set them off?

Do don't seriously think those people cared about what happened to them, do you?

I don't know buddy. Maybe because when push comes to shove, we end up shouldering the burden? I think the desire to have us on their side is greater than being on our side.

I also get why we do that. We would rather the fight break out in Germany rather than Kansas.

X2

I hope that carrier group bombs the entire Gaza strip flat. After 9-11, we should have learned not to let terrorist gain an inch.

j/c...

Horrible what is happening over there.



Viewing discretion advised...

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1711461334561272244

Click to see full thread...

It is really sad to see so many free people celebrate terrorists. I believe that Hamas and maybe even Hezbollah are about to find out what the fury of full functioning Democracy can do!!!

Gaza strip is 99% civilians who have nothing to do with what's going on. I get the energy you're bringing... not trying to step on that at all, but you'd do more FOR Hamas by blindly bombing where they hide amongst innocents.

If it were up to me, I'd be more inclined to bring more of that energy to Hamas supporters (Iran and the crowds gathering to celebrate the violence).

jc

So much information coming from both sides of the conflict.

what's clear is that there is no way for these groups to coexist. somebody has to go. so many things are true at the same time:

1. this was a terrorist attack and Hamas deserves whatever happens.
2. it's true that what israel has been doing to Palestinians most definitely is a form of apartheid.
3. Palestinians most certainly have a solid argument of ancestral homeland claims over the Europeans jews, now Israelis.
4. Hamas literally has it in its charter that they will accept nothing less than the destruction of israel.
5. Hamas is funded/supported by both Iran and Russia.


from the outside looking in, once we have (now 11) americans dead, i dont care who has the moral high ground between those two nations, retaliation is a must. but the complexity of the situation can not be understated. we're talking old school religious beefs here.

I've tried looking up all the crap Hamas has done against israeli's, and boy it's a long list. here's the problem, DT....

it's impossible to not run into all the reports of blatant human rights violations Israel has committed against Palestinians, which also includes the murder of innocent civilians, including children. I just started learning about what they call an 'open air prison' in Gaza....and man guys, it's bad.

like, really bad. I wasn't even aware until now that Israel controls almost every aspect of the border. there's only two ways to get into the Gaza strip; by way of the Egyptian border in the south, and the Israeli border in the north, neither which palestine has any control over. The fact that israel can shut off power and water in the region to millions of people is absolutely horrifying to say the least. let's be clear: this is an occupation, and neither side has clean hands here.

that being said, on some Highlander stuff, there can only be one. at the end of the day i'm American AF so ofcourse imma back our ally. But Israel has a lot to answer for, especially Netanyahu. Hamas deserves to be wiped out, but the Palestinians most certainly have their justification for resistance.

typical middle eastern nonsense.

Here's my question....

How much of this is indirectly due to the blank check (financial, military, political) Israel has enjoyed over the years from its most powerful allies (namely USA)?

Not trying to justify what Hamas is doing, their charter, etc. I'm just feeling like this is going to be Iraq/Desert Storm 2.0

Unfortunately, Religious zealotry hasn't really changed that much since the crusades for some people.

Maybe not a banner year if enough civilians are killed.

I am not saying I want that, but am saying it could work out that way. I think Israel is at the point they aren't going to ask who is and who isn't a civilian because if asked, everybody would claim civilian status.

If non-uniformed people attack you and then go hide with non-uniformed people, at some point you just assume all of them are bad actors.

I'm glad to see you started looking at this situation on your own. It makes it obvious that the overall picture is far more complicated than our national media reports it to be. Like yourself, when push comes to shove I support Israel. But that decision isn't as easily arrived at as it is for some.

I don't whitewash Israeli actions, but it isn't a hard decision for me.

Considering they are are closest allies in the region it isn't that hard. It's just that the long term picture and actions of each side makes it much cloudier than some would like to admit.

Bible Prophesy and what happens in Israel in the end times go hand in hand. Some scholars point to just a few prophesies are yet to be fulfilled. The Psalms 83 prophesy that Israel must fight a war to defends its right to exist. Some scholars are saying that this terrorist act fits the prophesy, and this could very well be the Psalms 83 war.

There are other unfulfilled prophesies like Isaiah 17 that prophesies that Damascus will no longer exist as a city.

The Gog Magog War or Ezekial 38 and 39. In that war Bible scholars say that Gog (Russia) with other nations attack Israel and no other nations come to Israel's aid. Other Countries ask Gog if he came for a spoil. Take Israel's wealth. To understand which countries are involved they are all described by where the descendants of Noah settled. Gog settle in the land to the far north of Israel (Russa).

Israel rebuilds the temple in Jerusalem and signs a peace treaty with the Anti-Christ and gets their eyes open that he is not their Messiah but rather the Anti-Christ. Last 5 chapters of the book of Daniel prophesies to this.
Then the Battle of Armagedón where the Nations of the world meet to fight Israel. The Book of Revelations.

Sounds farfetched but if you were around in 1900 till now you would have seen Israel come back as a nation that was prophesied. Isaiah even asked the question in Isaiah 66; can a nation be born in a day? He could not understand exactly what he was seeing. Yes, May 14, 1948. Ezekial 36 and 37 that spoke of the dry bones period that many say was what happened to the people in Nazi Germany and the land preparing itself for the return of the Jewish people.

Bottom line is the last 100 years has seen quite a bit of Bible prophesy come true.

Don't you find it strange that somehow all of these freed slaves that had been led to Mount Sanai had all of that gold to build that golden calf? Where did a tribe of slaves get all of that gold? We won't even get into the parting of the Red Sea. It's on odd thing about the Bible. We have hundreds of religions with different teachings all derived from that same book. All see and get a somewhat different message from it. Yet everyone of those different variations of Christianity claim it is they, and only they who has gotten it right.

Which is why I'm so glad that our nation is not, nor has been based on any religion. And why our foreign policy isn't based on religious teachings either.

I don't think it is all that cloudy. I don't see a negotiated settlement....ever. However, if looking beyond that, cloudy may not even be the word....maybe dense fog. It's anybodys guess and it could be right, unless some guess it all turns out roses.

I'm speaking about the history since May of 1948. Israel being handed the land which they destroyed over 500 Palestinian settlements and ravaged theircities to run them out of and occupy their homeland wasn't negotiated with the Palestinians either. It's just been a complicated situation from the very beginning. There are arrows that can be pointed in both directions.

I think it's far more than a guess to conclude that religious zealots on opposite ends of the extremes are far less likely to ever reach a lasting peace. Not impossible but highly unlikely.

Read Exodus 12: 35-36 to the answer to your question.

True to an extent. For the most part government policy has always been religion neutral. I do think our country is based on Christian values, but no individual church. Mostly because most of the framers were Christian. I don't see that as a real problem because when you get down to it, most religions values are similar.

Thou shall not kill is pretty fundamental in all religions. Just to put out an example. But no doubt you don't want a rigid, non-tolerant anything in control. Be it religious or some political mechanism. That leave people with very few if any choices and very few people in control.

You can generally spot those regimes in an instant. The general population is downtrodden, and underfed while the leaders are well dressed and obviously fed enough to be a fairly normal weight to overweight.

I don't think most of them care about what happens to themselves individually, but there is ample evidence of terrorists wanting to protect their families and whatnot, despite their own irrationality regarding themselves. Perhaps they had done that already before the attack by moving them elsewhere, but if that was not the case, the aforethought was not there.