DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Trade Deadline

Yet some teams made great trades, and they are all the usual suspects, SF, KC, Philly, etc. And Minnesota got Dobbs for a song. Jacksonville got a very good guard, not that we needed one. Seems like we should’ve done more than just give away DPJ.

well this day turned out disappointing, if I don't say so myself

1. We add RB Kenyon Drake to room that doesn't need help right now, especially when KS won't ever utilize them in important situations in the 4th qtr and on 3rd and short
2. We give DPJ away, even though to me he made some tough tough catches for us. No clue why KS didn't use him this year. See this: DPJ Highlights
3. We didn't get a veteran QB, so either that means trade prices are high (likely), or DW is close to coming back. I suppose we could roll with walker for 1 more game, if we can't beat the sorry Cards at home then we don't deserve playoffs. with that said, what's our contingency for when DW takes a big hit and gets hurt again? IMO this season went down with Chubb, and playoffs were always going to be a stretch

A running back? And it's not even Henry? Then you gave away DPJ? You've got to be kidding me with this amateur hour. Fire Andrew Berry. Enough talk, I'm tired of seeing PJ Walker (a QB that doesn't belong in the NFL).

I also don't want to see Watson either unless he's playing at a pro bowl level.

Kenyan Drake was a practice squad transaction (with a few other players/positions). Berry adds/drops PS players weekly. This isn't a deadline specific move.

A decidedly unsatisfying day truth be told.....

I know many are not as high on DPJ as I am, but he was our 3rd WR (or 4th if you count Njoku). Now our current QB situation isn't great for maximizing our WR talent, but this is going to go down as a loss.

Don't get me started on the whole "we got rid of a guy so the guy that was supposed to take his job but can't earn his way on the field on Sundays can now get unearned reps.

Dumping vets to get draft picks playing time and not filling a gaping hole on the roster that's costing you wins are the moves teams make that don't believe they can win now.

There are a lot of things the Browns are doing that are costing them wins, starting with a mediocre head coach. While I also like DPJ, trading him will be far down the list for reasons this team doesn't make the playoffs. Which it isn't going to anyway. Our only hope was a dominant defense that could overcome Sterfanski and that ship appears to have sailed. Trust me, the DPJ trade won't even register by the end of the year.

I know, I'm a little bummed. I like DPJ, how he came in raw and grinded and developed. We got our money's worth out of that pick for sure.

I think the approach we took to the trade deadline shows what we think about this roster/season. That's really frustrating. I think we'll see the D really start mailing it in with the lack of urgency shown, especially if the dead-last ranked QB play continues.


You and I don't completely agree on KS, but I do understand your argument.

Just to add a point, Watson was injured on Sept. 24th. If he plays this week (doubtful), that would mean he's been away from live play for 42 days outside of the few disastrous plays he attempted in the Colts game. Add to that fact, Watson has participated in next to zero practices up to this time as we speak. The chances of this guy reaching top 5 elite play when he returns is the biggest joke on the web. Let's be frank, he wasn't exactly burning it up when he was playing healthy.

What's the bar set at to be a Top 5 Elite QB based on current QBR rankings:

1. Allen BUF - 101.5 QB Rating, 17 TD/8 INT, 2,165 yds passing, 71.7% comp pct, 90.0 PFF Grade, 77.1 QBR
2. Mahomes KCC - 95.8 Rating, 15 TD/8 INT, 2,258 yds passing, 66.5% comp pct, 88.6 PFF Grade, 74.9 QBR
3. Purdy SFO - 105.4 Rating, 12 TD/5 INT, 2,033 yds passing, 68.3% comp pct, 73.0 PFF Grade, 74.4 QBR
4. Herbert LAC - 101.4 Rating, 13 TD/4 INT, 1,890 yds passing, 70.4% comp pct, 74.0 PFF Grade, 69.0 QBR
5. Tagovailoa MIA - 108.8 QB Rating, 18 TD/7 INT, 2,416 yds passing, 70.4% comp pct, 88.7 PFF Grade, 67.9 QBR

26. Watson CLE - 80.9 QB Rating, 4 TD/3 INT, 683 yds passing, 61.7% Comp pct, 63.4 PFF Grade, 41.3 QBR

If and when Watson does return, I fully expect a minimum of 3-5 weeks of the "he's rusty" excuse train and that's just to get back to the level he was playing prior to the injury that's noted above. It took Burrow CIN 5 weeks to get back to elite form from his injury and he was playing every week. I fully expect Watson to take much longer.

This is the main reason Berry has failed the franchise when he didn't address the Watson injury by seeking out a Watson replacement. Watson just being on the field is not going to give the ROI that everyone was promised when they traded for Watson.

How good do you think a QB needs to be in order to be considered a good back-up QB?

Josh Dobbs 2023

62.8% completions. 8td's and 5int's.

You have to consider names that you can sign. You said it yourself that you have to have a trade partner. Then you list QB's teams probably weren't looking to trade.

I understand you think this should have been settled before the season began and I agree with you. I think it was dumb to ship Dobbs off for a ham sandwich and a six pack. Especially since he's performed so much better than any backup we have on the roster. But that's not where we were with the upcoming trade deadline looming.

The thing about it is that I'm not disappointed at all. For me to be disappointed I would have had to of expected a better outcome and been let down. This is how I expected things to turn out.

I've never said that I have given up on watson the player. I'm saying with marginally better backup QB play the Browns can win more games. Especially the close ones. The name of the game is to win. You just said it yourself. The Browns "quarterback play is the worst in football". DTR nor P.J. will have the stat lines that Dobbs does. Say what you will about Dobbs not being able to stay on a roster because with that said he's outshining anything the Browns have in the backup role. Minnesota had no problems trading for him when their starter went down. Of course some people think they know more than the Vikings coaching staff I suppose.

It seems you insist on denying the statistical difference between Dobbs and any backup we have on the roster. So be it.

The deal with Dobbs is we planned to trade him as soon as we signed him back IMO.

That said, I think DTR is better. I don't think we can look at the Ravens game and draw anything close to a conclusion. Rookie, first game as a starter, made the starter on maybe Friday if not a game time decision. There was nothing about that recipe that would make one think the finished result was going to be good.

The only thing anyone has to base that DTR is better is him playing against NFL players of which many didn't even make an NFL roster during preseason and his time at UCLA. He was a fifth round pick and there's no actual evidence based on anything of substance that would indicate he's any better than P.J. There's also nothing that now should make anyone think the finished result of him starting would be good.

Pit, you know you can't win that argument. Stefanski and this front office are rarely held accountable for anything. I mean think about it, we had the worst DT's in the NFL for 2 seasons before seriously attempting to address it. The Browns had a 3rd round WR that they refused to cut for 3-years that shouldn't have made the roster in year 1. Now the Browns trade a starting WR to open a roster spot for another 3rd rounder that's been inactive nearly every week. The Browns have not only the worst LT in the NFL based on PFF Grading but the worst starting tackle overall according to PFF Grades and the Browns exercised his 5th year option. The backup QB situation is playing out and not in a good way but more importantly, the Browns 230M guaranteed investment after a year and a half hasn't been close to performing at top 5 elite level as expected. Considering Watson hasn't played or practiced much at all the last 45 days (outside the Indy disaster), how much of an improvement at QB do we really expect trotting the 24th QBR ranked QB out there? He's actually performed worse than Jones, Love, Wilson, Howell and Dobbs thus far in 2023. How's that for a ROI?

Dobbs is a veteran and had history with Petzing. DTR is a rookie and hadn't been getting many starter's reps. Walker was an in-season practice squad signing.

I'd expect the first guy to perform the best.

When Dobbs and DTR were both here, DTR performed better. After Dobbs left, he got starters reps in practice in Arizona. DTR didn't really get them here. Watson was expected to be the guy. Unfortunately, things haven't worked out that way much.

Hopefully, DTR has been taking advantage of going up against the ones in practice.

How much worse could DTR possibly play? Will he give up a dozen turnovers? Will he be an INT machine? Will he look like a late round rookie? Yes, he probably will suck, but will it be PJ WALKER bad, worse, or better? I guess that’s the gamble we’re taking while risking wasting another year under the inept Ski. This team never fails to disappoint. Never.

Yep, playing against NFL players which most of them couldn't even make an NFL roster during preseason is a glowing recommendation. DTR was a draft pick that the Browns had no chance to get anything for. So from an NFL perspective of value, Dobbs is worth more than DTR. They aren't going to toss away a player they just drafted even if they are marginal. I'll give you Anthony Schwartz as a prime example. DTR has potential but trying to claim he is a legitimate option at this point in time based on nothing doesn't cut it.

What you have done is try to claim is that DTR is the better option because they traded Dobbs and kept their first year draft pick. When the fact is trading a complete unknown, fifth round QB pick , DTR to anyone would been impossible to accomplish. So either the entire NFL is wrong on the value of these two players or your premise is empty.

Sure they drafted him. In the fifth round. Yeah, a 62.8 % completion rate with 8td's and 5int's would be a position it would suck to be in right now. lol

It amazes me how the fans of the Browns have not realized the culture of losing that has surrounded this organization since it's return is rooted in changing coaches and general managers every few years. But what does some of our intelligent fan base want? Just that another complete change in coach and general manager. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Did you enjoy the team from 1999 to 2019? Some of you must have quite clearly. The only reason this team is competing right now in the AFC North 4-3, in clearly the strongest conference in the NFL, and playing a very tough schedule so far 30-22 without Nick Chubb and Deshawn Watson for most games is Kevin Stefanski. His tenure from 2020 thru 2023 has been the Browns most successful tenure since their return. But by all means let's go backward. I just don't understand. Some of this fan base anymore. It sure is not like it used to be.

I agree with you that continuity is needed in order to build a dynasty. But can you explain to us what great HC's the Browns have fired that went on to be great HC's elsewhere since 1999? Now keep in mind I'm not one who is railing to fire Stefanski. I'm not one of those people you were referring to. In order to make your point i think you need to provide an example of where that was an actual mistake. I haven't seen one. I haven't seen a single HC since this team returned that went on to be a successful NFL HC anywhere else in the league after they were fired from the Browns.

I hear what you are saying, and it makes me question my criticism of Stefanski.

My issue with Stefanski is something is just a little off. There are too many losses that could have/should have been wins. I do not think he knows how to prioritize winning over scheme and analytics and process. For example, why was Ford in the game late after being injured all week when Strong and Hunt were gashing the Seahawks all game and both having strong games? Strong looked like he could break one at any minute. Were they on some type of pitch count? We see a lot of stuff like no Chubb at critical moments, passing when we should run, running when we should pass, no regard for who is actually in the game...calling the same game plan if Watson is starting or DTR is starting. Or why does every QB seem to regress under him. It's just odd stuff. You take all this odd stuff and stack it up next to the results and there just aren't enough wins. If the odd stuff were producing wins, that would be great. But at some point, there has to be more wins than losses. You have to make the playoffs.

In light of what is happening with the Raiders, it could be way worse. It's making me second guess myself a little bit on Stefanski. We are definitely not a chitshow. I believe continuity and stability is important. But we got to start seeing some improvement, some results. For every SF win, there's a Seattle loss. Meanwhile, the Ravens are running away with the division and the playoffs are getting harder and harder to attain. And there's no reason to play if you aren't going to make the playoffs.

I'm really torn on this. My preference is Stefanski just gets better and we get better results. But if there is any inkling in that building that isn't going to happen, I think you have to move on. There are teams in the league that were good and making the playoffs, got really bad, and are now good and again and will make the playoffs this year while the Browns continue to be stuck in neutral. That's got to be frustrating for all Browns fans. It is for me.

 

How many of them got a 2nd chance? I do know that Butch Davis has had success again in college at North Carolina. We have had many assistant coaches that have had quite a bit of success in the NFL as head coaches. Bruce Arains won a Super bowl in Tampa. Kyle Shanahan has been a successful head coach. There have been others. If they were assistants on a staff, I would assume the head coach probably was not as bad as we thought when they were fired. More time could give some of those coaches could have changed the culture. I thought we were close a couple times and coaching changes blew everything up way too soon. Look at Romeo. He had some success with Derrick Anderson and the receivers on that team and 1 bad year and everything was blown up. The Brian Hoyer team under Mike Pettine was blown up way too quickly also. More continuity and patience could have built something. These great assistants could have grown and been retained possibly. Either way those are all what ifs. We are there again. We are close and some fans want to start over again. They must have liked what had been the norm from 1999 to 2019.

So then your answer is no? That no former Browns HC's since 1999 have any success as a HC with any other team in the NFL? Thanks for that. And yes there have been many HC's hired twice in the NFL as HC's. And let me explain something you already know. When a HC is fired the new HC hires his own staff. I was a proponent of naming Shanahan the next HC even though I fully understood that's not usually the way things work unless an NFL HC retires. It's been done quite a bit in terms of interim HC's to fill in for the remainder of the season when HC's have been fired mid season. I mean f your excuse is, "They sucked so badly here that nobody gave them another chance at being an NFL HC", then I agree with you.

So, the question I have is what was the Browns commitment to winning between 1999 to 2019? You may say it was equal to every other team and I'd agree with that premise. Now, my second question is how committed have the Browns been to win since 2019? Let's not forget that the playoff team from 2020 was 70% built by John Dorsey.

In 2021, the Browns were the highest cash spender in the NFL at 239M on their roster with an NFL team cap of 183M.

In 2022, the Browns were the second highest cash spender in the NFL at 276M on their roster with an NFL team cap of 208M. The only team ahead of them was the Los Angeles Rams at $283M. In total only five teams crossed $250m of cash spending that season.

In 2023, the Browns are currently the highest cash spender in the NFL again at $285,353,978 on their roster with an NFL team cap of 224.8M.

Before making any moves or future signings and only based on current players, the Browns are currently committed to the highest spend in 2024 at 252M with a proposed cap of 240.5M and 2025 at 194M.

The Browns organization has spent more money over the last 3-years than any other NFL team. They also appear to be on track for the highest spend again in 2024. For that commitment to winning by ownership (I don't know what else you could call it), Berry and Stefanski have produced an 8-9 record in 2021 and a 7-10 record with a last place finish in 2022. So, the question is, who's responsible for the failure on the ROI? To date, the Browns have deferred 184.6M to build a winner yet zero results thus far and the payments are coming due soon on those deferred costs. The Rams cashed in using this method in 2021. They are also paying more for 4 players this year no longer on the team than they are currently paying for their entire defense in 2023. The Rams are also the lowest spend team in 2023 because of those earlier years deferred costs coming to roost. When they come due, you have to cut somewhere. Bottomline is when does Haslam come to the conclusion that enough is enough. IMHO, that boat has already sailed.

Well, you can't say we're not trying. Jimmy Haslam has shown he's willing to spend to bring us a winner. It's just that someone keeps making roster mistakes. One year it was DB's another year it was LB's last year it was the D-Line and this year we're lacking a capable backup QB. We seem to come up short somewhere even spending all that money.

Couldn't have said it better myself
I'm tired of hearing KS post-game after a loss always saying he needs to coach better, well it's year 4, those "bugs" should've been ironed out by now. We can forget winning the AFC North this year, going to have to fight for a wild card spot, and these early losses that should've been wins will come back to bite us, when it's late December and we have to rely on other teams to win/lose or some other complex scenario. KS has been reminding me of Jeff Fisher, a perennial 8-8 or 7-9 season coach, very mediocre.

Strangely enough, every team has those issues but only one team has spent 180M plus over the cap over the last 3-years to correct those issues - oddly they clearly have not corrected the issues. So, after 3 years of wild swing and misses, when do you pull the plug on something that clearly is not working? IMHO, it's already past due.

Ski is an inept head coach, period. If he was just the OC, the only position he truly seems to be interested in, he would be fired tomorrow. Pretending he’s some kind of real HC doesn’t change that. Ski just sucks at his job. Help the guy out and let him go find another one.

J/C

I don't visit enough boards of other teams to say this definitively, but it seems we've got to have some of the most obstinate, Dunning-Kruger effect suffering fans in the league.

Really, you want to use a play on words? Watson has started 9 games for the Browns (discounting the disaster in Indy). Six of those games were excused for rust. One was excused for the weather. One was excused for the loss of Chubb. The final game was decent but nowhere near elite and resulted in an injury where he's basically been unavailable for 40 plus days and counting. If Watson returns this week, a poor performance will immediately bring out the "he's rusty" excuse for missing 40 plus days - you can bank on it. The other point not talked about here is the thought process. Is playing a Watson against ARI at 65% or 75% risking reinjury more important this week than sitting him until he's 100% ready to go knowing you have BAL, PIT, and DEN up the next 3 games that could make or break your season?

As far as your comment about Berry, good GM's are not perfect - i agree. However, GM's are rarely (if ever) given an extra 180M plus over a 3-year period to address those issues. If you were the owner of the Browns, would you accept the excuse that the team doesn't have a reliable backup QB when you were allowed to spend an extra 180M plus over the cap limit the last 3 years? Or that your team has spent more money than any other team in the NFL over the last 3 years only to have no quality backup QB, 2 years of trash DT's, the worst LT in the game, and only 1 WR TD through 7 games after you revamped the WR room and still have questions at the LB position? All this and currently you are on pace to again have the highest spend in the NFL in 2024.

When do you as an owner say enough is enough? Then, what about the HC that has failed to turn that spend into a Super Bowl winner? Right now, since 2021 when the team build was Stefanski's and Berry instead of Dorsey, over 41 games and 180M plus in extra spend, the results Berry and Stefanski have posted to date is 19 wins and 22 losses. Even if you want to give them the record of the 2020 team that was 75%-80% built by Dorsey, the team of Stefanski and Berry have a current regular season record of 30-29 and a 180M plus spend over the cap. Finally, when that window closes because that 180M plus now needs to be accountable to the cap, what will my team look like when this group could only deliver barely a .500 record with an extra 180M plus? IMHO, Stefanski and Berry's seat should be glowing a bright red for the results they have posted and the heat they deserve.