Trick or treat the trade deadline falls on Halloween.
I wonder what Berry is looking at? Bargains most likely.
Because DW is missing in action. I don't think we really know what this offense as is can do.
The Titan game might be a clue. But until we see a few games more with DW at quarterback playing in this offense. Hard to know what we can do?
Wills is a target because of his play. Elliott is hiding among talent but he is sub par. Goodwin and DPJ have been invisible but we have not had a single presence at qb to gauge that. Tillman and Bell are unknowns.
There are always ways to improve. The question is finding a trade partner where both parties can agree.
Getting Cooper was a steal. I really don't know if there is a target like him that is available.
IMO I don't see what I would like to see from our running backs. Hunt looks to have lost burst. Ford looks average to me. He does not read and explode. I know there is not a Nick replacement. But I think there are backs that could be better than Ford and Hunt.
Dawand Jones has played well IMO. He is going to be a really good tackle. OL is always a place to add because depth becomes important.
It will be interesting to see what we will end up doing.
I'd love to see if Hunt can recapture some of the magic this year. I hope what I've been seeing the past couple weeks is him recapturing some mojo and gaining momentum each week.
I think we may be kicking some tires on some Oline depth. I don't think we're really in a position to swing some huge trade.
Kareem is popular. I understand that. But I am not seeing what he once was.
I am not saying this will happen. But I would inquire about Derrick Henry. He might be available for a decent price. He is not a long term solution but for this year. He could be a real weapon.
I would just say no to Henry. His best game was this past game. Otherwise he was averaging less than 4.0 yards per carry. The physical style of his game has caught up to him and he's not the same guy he used to be.
Trick or treat the trade deadline falls on Halloween.
I wonder what Berry is looking at? Bargains most likely.
Because DW is missing in action. I don't think we really know what this offense as is can do.
The Titan game might be a clue. But until we see a few games more with DW at quarterback playing in this offense. Hard to know what we can do?
Wills is a target because of his play. Elliott is hiding among talent but he is sub par. Goodwin and DPJ have been invisible but we have not had a single presence at qb to gauge that. Tillman and Bell are unknowns.
There are always ways to improve. The question is finding a trade partner where both parties can agree.
Getting Cooper was a steal. I really don't know if there is a target like him that is available.
IMO I don't see what I would like to see from our running backs. Hunt looks to have lost burst. Ford looks average to me. He does not read and explode. I know there is not a Nick replacement. But I think there are backs that could be better than Ford and Hunt.
Dawand Jones has played well IMO. He is going to be a really good tackle. OL is always a place to add because depth becomes important.
It will be interesting to see what we will end up doing.
The immediate focus should be on what the Browns can upgrade this year as they push for a playoff position, but I think we would be naive to think that 2024 wouldn't be a part of the equation.
1. I'm in total agreement on Wills. He's not improving (quite the opposite) and his 5th year option is a self-inflected error in judgement. Unloading Wills for peanuts will be fairly easy, finding a replacement is another question. Bolles DEN age 31 - signed through 2024 @ 15.75M in 2024, T. Brown NEP age 30 and final year of contract are options as these teams will probably be unloading players for draft picks and would be an upgrade. Either player could allow the Browns 2-years to permanently address the position either through FA or the draft and would be huge upgrades over Wills - T. Brown - Grade 82.4 rank 4th, Bolles - Grade 72.8 rank 21st, Wills - Grade 50.3 rank 66th. Paying a Bolles make much more sense than paying a Wills.
2. WR is and will be a huge issue at least from what we have seen thus far on the field. Cooper will be entering the final year of his contract at age 30 and most likely will be looking for a big extension this off season. Moore is also entering the final year of his deal in 2024. He's cheap next year and IMHO not lived up to expectations yet but if he does turn it on will he be demanding a new deal too? DPJ is currently in the final year of his deal and looks like he's almost fallen off the face of the earth in the Browns offense. IMHO, I wouldn't expect DPJ to take a hometown discount, so this is a real opening going forward. I haven't seen anything from Tillman, Bell, or Goodwin that makes me think they are the next man up.
3. Nick Chubb, what happened to Nick was horrific and sad. That said, I am very skeptical that Chubb will be ready to go at the start of 2024. That second gruesome injury to the same injured knee does not bode well for a quick recovery. I suspect that Chubb would start the season on IR and not come off before November. The second issue is his 11.775M final year base salary will have a negative bearing on the cap. Whether the Browns address a replacement this year or next, IMHO it will have to be addressed. It may be easier and more cost effective to do it now rather than later but that's for Berry to figure out.
If the Browns sit pat and make no moves, questions will abound as to the direction this team is really heading. Either the Browns are all in or they are not. .
I doubt we'd make any moves, but I do hope Berry is keeping an eye on anything that might be happening in Denver. They could be willing enough to get something done that makes sense for us.
You can only look for a trade partner. That does not mean you will find one with what you are seeking.
Or, strike a deal that will make sense for both parties.
If nothing happens that does not mean the Browns are not all in. They are all in. Look at the roster and salaries.
Maybe there is simply no deal to be made.
People point at receiver but I am uncertain. DW has not played enough games with what we have to even know.
In addition the guys on the roster have been here all this season. They are known. They have banked reps with the rest of the team. They know the playbook. They have worked with our quarterbacks.
It would all depend upon who for what? And if it provides a benefit now and in the future.
Replacing Wills sounds great but with whom and at what cost.
I remember vividly when Washington and Trent Williams were at odds. I posted over and over again that we should make a deal to get him. He thought Washington was screwing him. He questioned their medical people. It was clear he would not play for them. I knew he was one of the best tackles in the NFL. I am still pissed we didn't get him. Those types of opportunities don't come often. Tackles like him are gold bars.
Getting Cooper was a rare deal. I don't know what is out there. I do know Berry will turn over every stone.
I don't expect any blockbuster sort of trade, at all. Nothing flashy. If anything, I see us bolstering the line, maybe bringing in a RB from a struggling team looking to sell, but mostly, I expect unheralded guys that aren't the names everyone would clamor for, but that we likely scouted hard when they came out of college and have kept a watch on.
For OLine, guys who are good on their feet and move well and would thrive in Callahan's system. We may already have the guy in Ty Nsekhe that was signed last week.
I was watching The Ultimate Cleveland Sports Show.
The trade deadline was a topic. There were some deals proposed for discussion.
Apparently Sequon Barkley and the Giants are done. He wants out. The Giants signed him to a one year deal for $11. They will not resign him.
It was proposed on the Show trading a 3rd for him which really would be a rental for the remainder of this year. I don't know about that? A 3rd for a running back who would play for 10 regular season games.
Don't know what he is worth under that condition. Sequon is talented. But he has not been available.
Interesting to think about. He is a home run threat. We could do things with him that Hunt and Ford can't do as well.
I don't know what receivers are available that would make sense?
I am so onboard with this. I'm OK with DTR as a 3rd stringer, but I don't want to see Walker take the field again. There must be a solid veteran backup QB to be had out there.....
We should do something to help the O. It would be a shame to waste what we have on D. It's early but we all know we have a talented and well coached D which could be as dominant as any in recent memory.
and if Watson plays we need him to go into the game as a game manager ... his goal should literally be all field position and no turnovers. That would help him stay healthy and us win the game
We really don't know what we have yet. DW has played 3 games. Tillman and Bell have hardly played.
DPJ has had view passes even thrown his way. Moore the guy we went after has not yet fit in. I don't think we know what our offense even looks like yet.
One game gives us a hint. The Titan game. We clicked. DW has not played since that game.
The two weeks we have before the deadline may provide some answers.
and if Watson plays we need him to go into the game as a game manager ... his goal should literally be all field position and no turnovers. That would help him stay healthy and us win the game
That's what Stefanski has to feed him.
I think part of what we're seeing evolve, as far as team identity, is an offense that has been churning it out and keeping fresh legs for the defense.
Memphis posted in another thread showing that we are near the best in the league in avoiding 3-and-outs. Hard to believe, really, with what has gone down at QB. Combine that with winning the TOP battle (by between 10 and 17 minutes in three contests ), and you have an offense that is the yin to Schwartz's yang. And he's got a big yang.
You can only look for a trade partner. That does not mean you will find one with what you are seeking.
Or, strike a deal that will make sense for both parties.
If nothing happens that does not mean the Browns are not all in. They are all in. Look at the roster and salaries.
Maybe there is simply no deal to be made.
People point at receiver but I am uncertain. DW has not played enough games with what we have to even know.
In addition the guys on the roster have been here all this season. They are known. They have banked reps with the rest of the team. They know the playbook. They have worked with our quarterbacks.
It would all depend upon who for what? And if it provides a benefit now and in the future.
Replacing Wills sounds great but with whom and at what cost.
I remember vividly when Washington and Trent Williams were at odds. I posted over and over again that we should make a deal to get him. He thought Washington was screwing him. He questioned their medical people. It was clear he would not play for them. I knew he was one of the best tackles in the NFL. I am still pissed we didn't get him. Those types of opportunities don't come often. Tackles like him are gold bars.
Getting Cooper was a rare deal. I don't know what is out there. I do know Berry will turn over every stone.
We agree Bone. Maybe it's the baseball in us.
First you have to find a willing trade partner, then it has to be a deal everyone feels good about. It has to make sense to both teams. This isn't fantasy where some idiot wants to trade PJ Walker for Tua.
Baseball has more trades because they can trade for prospects. The NFL doesn't have prospects. They have players or draft picks. Baseball doesn't trade for draft picks very often, an even then it is some throw in pick. The pick almost always isn't the purpose of the trade.
Trades in baseball are a huge part of every season. Organizational structure is way different. There are no Minor leagues in football. Contracts are different.
GM's in football cherish draft picks.
Football trades can be spawned by disputes. Signing extensions can cause problems. Straight up trades are more difficult.
Berry has shown a propensity for trades. This will be interesting. I have no clue who he will find for a trade partner. Cooper was a monster deal for the Browns.
Major questions continue to surround QB Deshaun Watson as he deals with a shoulder injury that has kept him sidelined since Week 4. Head coach Kevin Stefanski says Watson is still "day-to-day," but there seems to be less confidence in the $230M quarterback every week.
This is why the Browns should consider reuniting with Brissett, who started 11 games with the team in 2022. His 4-7 record wasn't flashy, but Cleveland's defense, which ranks as the best in total yards allowed per game (200.4) and the fifth-best team in points allowed per game (15.4), is championship caliber.
The Commanders (3-3) seem to be all in on second-year QB Sam Howell, at least for the remainder of the season, and the Browns need better quarterback play. Backup QB P.J. Walker threw for 192 yards and two interceptions in Week 6, and rookie QB Dorian Thompson-Robinson threw for 121 yards and three interceptions in Week 4. Brissett would bring the insurance at quarterback that Cleveland is missing.
He doesn't give more info than the headline but perhaps DPJ could be a piece to move?
No doubt. Probably part of why he hasn't played much. I guess the question is how much value the guy holds? I am not sure some team would offer a whole lot.
He doesn't give more info than the headline but perhaps DPJ could be a piece to move?
No doubt. Probably part of why he hasn't played much. I guess the question is how much value the guy holds? I am not sure some team would offer a whole lot.
Hi Peen. I’m not sure where you are getting that DPJ hasn’t played much. He has the most snaps of all the receivers. Maybe you meant targets?
Good info. Looks like my speculation is wrong. I'll admit, I follow the ball and don't scan the field to see who is in the game. Right or wrong, if he isn't a target, he isn't in the game.
Derrick Henry is in the last year of his contract.
He is paid about $11. With what is left on the schedule he is due about $7 more.
The Titans are not going to resign him.
I think getting him as a rental for the rest of this year would be a good move. I am not seeing what i would like to see for Hunt and Ford.
Henry is 29. He may not be what he was but he has enough to help for the rest of this season. I am not seeing any burst from Kareem.
Ford looks slow to read blocks. If he finds space he is ok. Henry can still break tackles. He is still a threat. And he will get attention when on the field which can help in play action.
We can of course get by with what we have. But I think Henry could help us.
Henry's production this season has not been all that great. Better than what we currently have, but still not great. I have no clue if the Browns like Henry or want to pursue him, but if so, I hope it would include TEN still eating a good chunk of that remaining contract while getting a late round pick....or what Berry seems to like, pick swaps.
I don't think the Browns would be comfortable taking on the remaining contract as it stands. But that's just me.
My interest is only in improvement. Speaking only for myself. If I was happy seeing what I have seen since Nick went down.
It would be different. I know there is no equal replacement. When I have watched Ford who is now the guy.
He seems slow to decide. Nick by comparison is decisive. Ford has some long speed by I do not see that burst.
Henry is the definition of "power back." He is just a major load with deceptive speed.
My guess is we don't make this deal. I think they believe in Ford.
Maybe Berry is looking at another position. Receiver is always brought up.
Until DW puts together a number of games with what we have. I am uncertain.
Goodwin has the long speed. DPJ and Tillman are good at contested catches. Cooper is the ace route runner. Bell is savy. Moore is a slot guy who can go long. Moore so far has not been used right. The reason is DW has missed games.
Over the season my fear is injury on both lines. Depth on the OL and DL is important. Dunn is on the IL.
Bitonio coming off a minor surgery. Wills inconsistent. Jordan Elliott still has not shown much. He is replaceable. I would love to get depth on both lines.
Trading DPJ for a low draft pick would be stooopid.
I don't understand the point of making yourself weaker in a group that is one Cooper injury from crapfest. So that you could fill his role with the same JAG that doesn't even know the offense?
Stupid, stupid, stupid, unless you're adding a proven WR in a separate trade.
I agree. Stainbrook speculated trading DPJ and allowing Tillman to step in (though the Browns are not actively shopping him). The Browns are in win now mode. Sure, they'll likely lose DPJ in FA next year, but DPJ has been excellent blocker, catches nearly everything thrown his way and is excellent on contested balls thrown. If anything, I'd say he needs targeted more often.
Trading him and relying on a rookie to step in and take his spot seems like a bad idea given where the Browns are as a team.
From Brad Stainbrook
Donovan Peoples-Jones is an interesting name to watch heading towards the deadline. While the Browns will not go out of the way to move Peoples-Jones, don't rule out the possibility of the team listening to trade offers for the Michigan wide receiver who's in his last year under contract with Cleveland. The team wants to give more opportunities to younger players in the room, like rookie Cedric Tillman, and moving Peoples-Jones for a draft pick would allow for that to happen.
Not only do I think Henry is not what he used to be, I think he is a shadow of his former self. He has only had two games all season thus far in which he looked good on any level. I don't really expect you to take my word for it but living here in the Nashville area I get a very good look and breakdowns on his performances. Sometimes more than I would care to. I've always been fond of those bigger backs that remind me of the physical running style we used to see more of in the 70's. But that physical style takes a toll on the body with a quickness. And that's what I've been seeing now.
I think the idea of trading DPJ could be an option that may or may not be a good idea. A lot hinges on what the Browns know that we may not. Do they know the likelihood that watson may not return this season? Do they know if watson won't be back for quite some time? Too late to save the season? I'm not saying they do or do not know that but I think it's safe to say they know more about that situation than we do. I have more faith in Tillman than many on this board do. With that being said even I don't have faith that he's ready to fill the role of DPJ.
But IF the Browns know watson won't be coming back any time soon and IF they feel confident they won't be able to sign him to a new contract before he hits the FA market, to me it would make sense to trade him before he walks and you get nothing in return.
On the other hand if frogs had wings they wouldn't hit their asses on the ground every time they landed.
I certainly would love to see the overall scenario you are describing. A reasonable deal on a legitimate upgrade at the RB position as a band aid until Chubb is able to return. I would hope that such an opportunity presents itself.
I think you trade for a backup QB. Its better to have them on standby and not need them than wait until after the deadline and realize Watson is going to be out longer or he reinjures it.. Walker ain't the guy.. I'm actually really suprised he's still the guy and we didn't do anything yet, Watson must be further along than they are letting on. Theres enough tape on walker to see he is not a long term option.
With the Stefanski connections to Minnesota, I've been contemplating a potential Kirk Cousins rental. Don't know if I'd actually do it, but the familiarity could make the on the field part work relatively quickly. Without knowing Watson's injury outcome, it's hard to know how much of him we'll see. Kwesi and Berry could probably make something work on the trade compensation side. Shutting Watson down could potentially be the smart long-term play.
Not sure how much salary we'd have to take on. It would "suck." But it might "salvage" the season. On the other hand, might cause a QB controversy.
Hopefully, Watson gets and stays healthy and none of my speculation matters.
Honestly, we've seen more than a handful of QBs here under Stefanski's system.... and, honestly, when looking at the good performances (e.g. throwing out the trash ones like DTR), I don't really see much of a performance difference among them in this system.
Sure, DW ostensibly brings some thing to the table that the others don't, but it has yet to translate into any improvement in the bottom lines. Given that, I'd be perfectly fine bringing in Cousins and sitting Watson until he is perfectly healthy and healed and ready to go.
I think the only crazy trades we would make would be for a tackle or a backup QB.
I don't see Cousins making his way here. We have too much into Watson and they have too much into Cousins. IMO, though... Cousins sounds like a QB that would actually work with KS. A "do your job" kind of guy. I don't hate it other than all the costs we'd have to eat to make it happen.
NOLA is a mess, either carr is straight trash or noone knows what they are supposed to do on offense.. its very difficult to watch.. how they've won 3 games amazes me
The color guys on the broadcast last night were... not complimentary... of the offensive gameplans. I don't follow NOLA at all, so maybe there are some personnel issues for all I know.... but IMO there is WAY too much talent throughout that offense to look as ineffective as they are. Supposedly they swept up Joe Woods once we got rid of him, so I'm immediately biased against their FO decision-making.
Some of you crack me up with the cousins hate. Yeah I’d sure hate to have 68% completion with 14tds to 4 int and a 100 qb rating as a backup
You can say that, How many post season wins does he have ?
And there it is. How a QB plays on the field makes no difference.
Last year alone the Vikings D gave up 34 points to the Giants in that wildcard game. The Vikings scored 24 points. The fault of that loss clearly rests on the shoulders of Cousins. Come on man.
So, aside from Brisset, are there any other QB’s available???
Unless you can convince Brady to come out of retirement there isn't much: Wentz or Ryan would be about the only ones that would be considered an upgrade.
He got the "rusty" excuse last year. He got the "rusty excuse" this year. He got the injury excuse this year. He's also cashing $2.7 mill plus checks every week. If he can't play, he can't play.
I don't know............did he go out today READY to play? Or did he go out ready to say he played? His throwing motion was terrible in his, what, 5 pass attempts?
We will have one when he plays next week. Or if he doesn’t. After he played very well in the Titans win, we were all good with him. He’s barely practiced the last four weeks, but they in mind, I don’t understand why he was yanked today. I think his shoulder was aggravated today, needs more time. Just my opinion of course. Who knows though?
I dont think watson will play effectively rest of the year with the injury, but lets not pretend this offensive system is good.. alot more wrong with it than watson and alot of it was masked because nick chubb put a tremendous amount of pressure on defenses. But that being said, knowing that we've probably punted another year with Watson(which Berry should lose his job over, among other moves) we have to get some production out of the QB position. Two ugly wins in a row, great, better than two ugly losses but it doesn't detract from the fact that PJ walker is a very bad quarterback. I think the refs are helping us tremendously on some very bad calls that on one hand I'm finally glad we are on the receiving end of now, but on the other, make no mistake are the only reason we have won the last two games. So we have the deadline coming up after the next game but I don't think we can wait. What options are there, Matt Ryan or Wentz if we don't want to trade.. meh both probably are 10000x better than walker but not sure I want someone who hasn't been in camp all year. Obviously the best candidate would be cousins if it could be done, Second best would be trading for Brissett, while nothing special, he protects the ball and as is already familiar with this "system" Beyond that some names I wouldn't mind kicking the tires on, Tyrod Taylor, Jameis Winston, and heres one that might be surprising, Mac Jones. I don't think cousins would cost as much as some thing since he's on an expiring contract.. most talking heads thinks he will wave his clause to go somewhere to win. He wouldn't need much time since he's familiar with stefanski's "system"
But beyond that, i think we need to look at RB's and Wr's. I think hunt is better than ford, but I'm not sure Hunt is ready for a full load.. I just don't think ford is an every down back. Statistics back that up. We could take a flyer on henry, I think TN is going to go fire sale.. Tannehill might be available too. Henry will be a FA after this year so would be a good rental candidate, I also would ask Indy about Moss, with Taylor the obvious RB1, Moss might become available.
Wr's, we have Copper and JAGS. Some obvious names like Adams(who has said he wants out) Jeudy, I could also check in about Hunter Renfrow. He's been buried in LV and he's good. The last spot I would look for is some speed at LB, Jok is fast but he gets erased alot in run game. Hes made some plays in space this year and looks to be doing well, but the others are not good. We need more speed there. Not alot available there. I think we could also maybe call arizona up and see if Ertz is available for a TE, Njoku I think has alot of potential but its never clicked for him.. he's just meh, but he's getting paid like he's a superstar, outside of that there are no reliable te targets on the team. Ertz would be a big body possession type guy.
You mentioned Arizona (who might be in sell mode now) ... Hollywood Brown has been rumored to be on the block, though I'd bet his contract is too pricey
In terms of RBs, it looks like we're going to need one somehow if Ford's injury is even a few week thing
None of the above moves will fix the problems if the Browns don't address the o-line. Wills is absolutely stinking up the joint and I see no movement of him getting better.
You mentioned Arizona (who might be in sell mode now) ... Hollywood Brown has been rumored to be on the block, though I'd bet his contract is too pricey
In terms of RBs, it looks like we're going to need one somehow if Ford's injury is even a few week thing
I don't know about RB. Hunt we know about, and Strong has looked good in his limited chances. We also have Deon Jackson, but we don't know much about him due to limited chances.
Now if Ford is going to be out 6 weeks, then we might look to trade or grab someone off a teams practice squad. All the players on a practice squad are guys who just missed making their team. For many of those guys, it wasn't a matter of not being good enough, it was more a numbers game.
You mentioned Arizona (who might be in sell mode now) ... Hollywood Brown has been rumored to be on the block, though I'd bet his contract is too pricey
In terms of RBs, it looks like we're going to need one somehow if Ford's injury is even a few week thing
Maybe we could get Josh Dobbs and a 7th for a 4rh rounder? (Picked a 4th rounder bc we traded him and a 7th for a 5th rounder)
What we need to see is him playing games. Speculation without documentation or verifiable evidence of his health is meaningless.
When DW has played games where we can see a valid sample size; then we have a true gauge.
It is understandable that people are confused. They want answers now. That is normal fan reaction.
PJ Walker does not look the part. However, we really do not know. We have not seen very much. I agree that if we can find a better option it should be explored.
j/c Our needs (from my POV): A competent, serviceable QB - a top-flight rental LB - and another body at RB. We don't need another WR or TE: we simply need to make use of who we've already got...
AB needs to jump on the "F them picks" bike one more time and go get Brissett. If we're going to make a move at QB, that's the one. He's not playing, he's gonna be the most plug-and-play guy we could ever hope to find, and he is an actual known quantity (people that are saying Wentz and Ryan would be an upgrade are using a HEAVY dose of optimism).
Until DW plays in multiple games in a row. We don't know squat.
Fans want the test answers before the test.
Reaching speculation is nonsense.
The team is 4-2. We are in the hunt. We won two games with a guy fresh off the practice squad. Against teams that played hard to beat us.
But of course that is not enough for some folks.
I truly believe that if we were to win every game 42-0. There are some who would find fault and complain about something.
I don't know if I am in the minority but I was thrilled to win the last two games. I don't give a damn how we did it.
Right now there are plenty of teams who would like to be 4-2. Myself I am happy to have that record.
Are there answers that must be found out. Absolutely. DW needs to play games. If we are going to stay in the playoff picture. We are going to have to have better quarterback play.
the backup QB thing has really backfired .. we couldn't/didn't re-sign Brissett and then traded Dobbs .. we would be in better off with either of those two guys
obviously Berry can't read the future, but we're in a tough spot now
I readily admit my math stinks,but 6 games last year plus 3 games this year,equals multiple games in arow.The honest truth is he has stunk in 8 of those.
Until DW plays in multiple games in a row. We don't know squat.
Fans want the test answers before the test.
Reaching speculation is nonsense.
The team is 4-2. We are in the hunt. We won two games with a guy fresh off the practice squad. Against teams that played hard to beat us.
But of course that is not enough for some folks.
I truly believe that if we were to win every game 42-0. There are some who would find fault and complain about something.
I don't know if I am in the minority but I was thrilled to win the last two games. I don't give a damn how we did it.
Right now there are plenty of teams who would like to be 4-2. Myself I am happy to have that record.
Are there answers that must be found out. Absolutely. DW needs to play games. If we are going to stay in the playoff picture. We are going to have to have better quarterback play.
Watson has played in multiple games in a row
You post like he's a rookie with 8 games under his belt
He wasn't paid guaranteed $230 million because there were no test results
I personally can't handle watching him throw the ball into the turf of open receivers
Stefanski didn't put him back into the game because he stunk up to that point
And it was an excuse to keep him off the field
I want to see Watson be a good to great QB and start making the offense look good
If it wasn't for the Defense, the Browns could possibly be 0-6 or 1-5 with the horrid offensive play
Two seasons are not in a row. The row ends and then starts again.
His last game before yesterday was encouraging. His performance in that game showed a very high passer rating.
Now he has sat for two games.
He needs to play games with nothing but his play on the field so we can really see where he is. Not with all the questions about layoff and now his injury surrounding his play.
Have patience we will see what he can do. There are 11 games left to play.
I understand how some of us may feel that way but DW looked good in the Titans game. If he plays like that we're all set. I personally think he's hurt worse than they're saying and it's affecting his game mentally too. JMO
Home...there is always more to the story...stuff that the fans are not aware of.
But it's time for this front office to be honest about what is going on with Watson. I'm beginning to think that Watson's issues are as much mental as they are physical.
I do know that some issues can not be discussed openly due to an individuals right to privacy and cannot be openly discussed if the patient wishes.
I'm wondering if depression might be contributing and compounding Watson's ability to overcome his physical issues.
Home...there is always more to the story...stuff that the fans are not aware of.
... I'm beginning to think that Watson's issues are as much mental as they are physical.
I just posted over in the gameday board some situational stats that may lend some credence to this. The numbers, to me, suggest that he isn't playing well at all unless he can just relax and sling it.
I buy that mental issue with Watson, I think the fact that he was elite in houston, was given a bunch of money and put the expectations of a city on him, was suspended and came back and not playing for a long time, being expected to get back to that elite level immediately and that not happening really cranked up the pressure for this year.. Then comes out and has a couple meh games and then get injured, its got to take its toll.. whether or not he gets straight or not is to be determined. If he is getting treatment, then thats a good sign that he atleast recognizes he needs help with whatever he's got going on.
Wentz has arguably better career stats than Watson, but no one wants him because he is supposedly a jerk and hasn’t won the big games. Well, is Watson any different? I think we should go get him and let him learn the system. We currently have no viable option if Watson can’t return to form.
I buy that mental issue with Watson, I think the fact that he was elite in houston, was given a bunch of money and put the expectations of a city on him, was suspended and came back and not playing for a long time, being expected to get back to that elite level immediately and that not happening really cranked up the pressure for this year.. Then comes out and has a couple meh games and then get injured, its got to take its toll.. whether or not he gets straight or not is to be determined. If he is getting treatment, then thats a good sign that he atleast recognizes he needs help with whatever he's got going on.
You also have to mention that a large portion of the fans didn't exactly welcome him with open arms.
I am not blaming anybody, but it is a contributing factor that could chip at the guys confidence. I said this earlier, maybe this thread or another...he seems to have a fairly frail personality. He has been the top dog since HS, maybe earlier. He hasn't had to face any real backlash. He hasn't had to deal with things like this.
in terms of Went or Matt Ryan, both of them were pretty bad in their last stints so I don't think their much of an option. Not sure if there is another backup worth mentioning besides Brissett because I'm not as well versed as some of you on other teams' rosters
All the wild speculation by fans regarding DW means little.
What counts is the locker room. They know.
If the players and coaches honestly believe in him. The fans will eventually find out.
Fans over react to wins and losses. That is what fans do.
DW is the quarterback of the Browns. He is going to play unless he is injured. When this season ends we will all know more.
Fans don't know about his current condition. They will never know until if and when he put on the IL.
A deep contusion from a hit. Is not the same as a rotator cuff tear from use. We really do not know if there are micro tears. We have not seen him throw at a full practice. All we get is partial information from reporters who do not attend full practices.
Maybe people would be better served if they just let things play out.
Henry's production this season has not been all that great. Better than what we currently have, but still not great. I have no clue if the Browns like Henry or want to pursue him, but if so, I hope it would include TEN still eating a good chunk of that remaining contract while getting a late round pick....or what Berry seems to like, pick swaps.
I don't think the Browns would be comfortable taking on the remaining contract as it stands. But that's just me.
The above commentary still stands, but the more and more I think about this, the more I'd be ok with acquiring him. Especially now with the Ford high ankle sprain. Those are tough to get over and tend to linger. And even if Ford can come back 100%, I like the duo of Henry and Ford (lolz) than Ford and Hunt. Sorry, Hunt is a local guy and fan favorite, but he just doesn't have it anymore. However, you lose carry over cap for whatever salary you have to pay for Henry, I believe. Not sure how the Browns feel about that.
Plus, maybe this acquisition keeps the defense a bit more honest with Henry on the field especially if we need to rely on PJ Walker a bit more.
I think we should try and get a Vet QB here. We need someone with experience in case DW is out for a while. Maybe the Vet QB can do an Earl Morral imitation and get us to the Super Bowl!!!
While that may be true to some extent, they have seen the quiz results. Nine games aren't test results. But they are an indication of how badly the test may grade out based on the quiz results.
in terms of Went or Matt Ryan, both of them were pretty bad in their last stints so I don't think their much of an option. Not sure if there is another backup worth mentioning besides Brissett because I'm not as well versed as some of you on other teams' rosters
Actually, the last time Ryan played well was with Kyle Shanahan. Matt might be a good fit in Stefanski's offense.
This bit info on Matt Ryan's contract situation might have some influence on his desire to play again...
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Ryan joined Indianapolis last season after 14 years with the Falcons, but played poorly before being benched at midseason. He returned to action after Jeff Saturday replaced Frank Reich as the team’s head coach, but wound up back on the bench for the final three games of the year.
Ryan reiterated that he isn’t announcing his retirement in a Twitter post about his new job and he has no reason to announce his retirement now because he’s still due $12 million from the Colts for this year. There’s been no sign that anyone wants him to play for them, however, and his move into broadcasting suggests that he’s not hearing much interest behind the scenes either.Ryan still hasn’t closed the door on playing again but, come on. It’s done. And if he plays at all this year, he’ll be playing for free, because anything he earns will be credited to the $12 million the Colts still owe him. link
We are in a self dug hole regarding a quality backup quarterback.
We should have kept Jacoby. DTR may have a future. But he is not qualified to be a backup currently. Getting PJ was a scramble.
He could develop into a backup. Currently he is not qualified. Injury is a part of the NFL. Some positions it is impossible to pay for depth. You use draft picks or guys who have been backups and have a low salary.
Quarterback is the one position that if you plan to contend. You must have quality. Mariota is backing up Hurts. Similar player. Experienced. He can run their offense. He is not way different in style.
Jacoby is a quality backup and he is known and liked. Berry made a mistake with this situation.
No matter if DW is fine and ready to go. It is poor planning.
What we don't know is if he was offered a contract?
At least I am not aware he was. His performance with the Browns may have raised his price tag. He may well have left if it was made clear to him that he would have a chance to start in Washington. I am unaware of those details.
If that were the case then Berry should have looked for another guy if Dobbs was not attractive.
What we ended up with is DTR who failed. Then scrambling to find PJ. Who does not look the part.
Why do people keep acting like we “let Jacoby” go. He left for a chance to start . Him staying at the time wasn’t and option in our control.
I agree. I thought it was crystal clear that he was a stand-in during the suspension year. I think this only became clearer when he showed out over the course of his games. Dude earned a starting job... which is why it's really weird to me that he finds himself backing up the likes of Sam Howell.
I'll say it again, because the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of bringing him back. Berry needs to get back on his "F them picks" bike one more time and make it happen.
1. Jacoby is a proven quantity in this offense throwing to most of these receivers. If we were to plot a graph of potential backup QB acquisitions in terms of cost v effectiveness, Jacoby would be waaaay out in the one corner. 2. If we really are a contending teams, one thing that contending teams need to do is spend some resources on a solid backup. We rolled the dice with DTR, and it didn't work. It happens and it's not the end of the world so long as you address it quickly. Jacoby wouldn't be a rental... he'd be our solid backup, and he'd continue to be a weapon on QB sneaks like he was last year. 3. In terms of our options, he'd be the best best, and probably one of the cheapest.
in terms of Went or Matt Ryan, both of them were pretty bad in their last stints so I don't think their much of an option. Not sure if there is another backup worth mentioning besides Brissett because I'm not as well versed as some of you on other teams' rosters
Actually, the last time Ryan played well was with Kyle Shanahan. Matt might be a good fit in Stefanski's offense.
in terms of Went or Matt Ryan, both of them were pretty bad in their last stints so I don't think their much of an option. Not sure if there is another backup worth mentioning besides Brissett because I'm not as well versed as some of you on other teams' rosters
Actually, the last time Ryan played well was with Kyle Shanahan. Matt might be a good fit in Stefanski's offense.
the issue is that was, what? 6-7 years ago?
The other issue is that while the offenses are similar... they are not the same. I tend to go to bat for Stefanski more than not... but he ain't Shanahan.
Why do people keep acting like we “let Jacoby” go. He left for a chance to start . Him staying at the time wasn’t and option in our control.
I agree. I thought it was crystal clear that he was a stand-in during the suspension year. I think this only became clearer when he showed out over the course of his games. Dude earned a starting job... which is why it's really weird to me that he finds himself backing up the likes of Sam Howell.
I'll say it again, because the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of bringing him back. Berry needs to get back on his "F them picks" bike one more time and make it happen.
1. Jacoby is a proven quantity in this offense throwing to most of these receivers. If we were to plot a graph of potential backup QB acquisitions in terms of cost v effectiveness, Jacoby would be waaaay out in the one corner. 2. If we really are a contending teams, one thing that contending teams need to do is spend some resources on a solid backup. We rolled the dice with DTR, and it didn't work. It happens and it's not the end of the world so long as you address it quickly. Jacoby wouldn't be a rental... he'd be our solid backup, and he'd continue to be a weapon on QB sneaks like he was last year. 3. In terms of our options, he'd be the best best, and probably one of the cheapest.
I agree about Brissett; he’s def the path of least resistance and proven to be able To manage the team in this offense and he’s never had a good Defense. But regardless if Watson comes back or not, it doesn’t make our need for a competent backup any less imo. We will know by the moves if the FO really believes we can contend this year or not
Why do people keep acting like we “let Jacoby” go. He left for a chance to start . Him staying at the time wasn’t and option in our control.
Some people say we "gave him the boot".
Brissett was signed as backup QB by Wash. Commanders...not to be their starter. Jacoby knew the contract $$/numbers were good and he did not wait to see if he got any contract offers that gave him a chance to start.
What did the Browns offer Brissett...NOTHING...Nothing vs the Wash. Commanders offer...Jacoby didn't wait to sign it.
The Depodesta Guardrail reads, THE BROWNS DON'T PAY FOR DEPTH...! They didn't but now they are wishing they would have.
BTW...so far Jacoby has been listed as the Commanders BACKUP QB.
Just another of the Browns MISJUDGEMENTS that will be blamed on the Browns belief in ANALYTICS.
the fact that Brisset isn't on our roster right now means one of several things: 1. The Browns did inquire about him, but the asking price was too high 2. AB/KS are so arrogant to believe that we're good with resting the fate of our season in PJ Walker's hands 3. Watson is fully healed and ready to go the rest of the way
Regardless, IMO our season went down with Chubb, our current running game is non-sustainable for a champoinship.
All the wild speculation by fans regarding DW means little.
What counts is the locker room. They know.
If the players and coaches honestly believe in him. The fans will eventually find out.
Fans over react to wins and losses. That is what fans do.
DW is the quarterback of the Browns. He is going to play unless he is injured. When this season ends we will all know more.
Fans don't know about his current condition. They will never know until if and when he put on the IL.
A deep contusion from a hit. Is not the same as a rotator cuff tear from use. We really do not know if there are micro tears. We have not seen him throw at a full practice. All we get is partial information from reporters who do not attend full practices.
Maybe people would be better served if they just let things play out.
Nice post except the player himself has come out and told us what is wrong.
A new update has finally emerged with specific details of the injury.
The bad news is that Watson is dealing with a strain in his subscapularis muscle. This isn't just a pain issue, but one that also causes weakness in the rotator cuff. And it's safe to say that rotator cuff strength matters a little bit when you're trying to throw a football in the tight windows afforded to passers at the NFL level.
Watson appeared to still have lingering affects when he took a hit on Sunday. He grabbed his right shoulder after being hit, had difficulty lifting his right arm, he was able to jog off the field and was holding his right arm and did not attempt a pass on the sideline.
Watson confirmed his shoulder injury is a rotator cuff issue, a more significant ailment than the simple contusion that most believed was the problem.
Watson had another MRI done on the shoulder on Monday showing no further damage - the question is why if the shoulder wasn't an issue on Sunday?
Last Friday, Mary Kay Cabot of Cleveland.com reported that sources told her Watson may miss multiple more weeks.
Though you arer correct that "Fans don't know about his current condition," it would be safe to say that it is not a deep contusion as previously reported.
With each passing day, it looks more and more like Mayfield 2.0 going on in Berea.
There is an entire medical team looking at this. Professionals at the highest level in sports medicine.
There is an entire coaching staff. And there is the player.
As a group they will decide when he is ready. The medical team has all of the imaging. The coaches observe how he looks throwing in live practice. The player has the responsibility to be honest about how it feels.
All the " I think he should sit for x amount of time" means nothing.
Nobody said that Baker the player was relevant. The handling of the QB injuries by Stefanski and the Browns is relevant and Watson's mirrors the mishandling of Mayfield's injury. As of today, Watson is no more ready to play than he was on September 25th. That's 4-weeks ago now and he should have been put on IR in retrospect. That said though, the commonalities between the way the injuries have been handled is eerily similar. Those professionals at the highest level in sports medicine did and continue to clear the players for play. Both players had and have had their injuries downplayed as to the seriousness and the effect it had/has on their ability to play at an appropriate level. Live practice throws are not live game throws, using that as the baseline and then ignoring the actual play results is an injustice to the fans and the player. Neither player should have been on the field even though they both said they were ready and medically cleared but clearly not close to being able to perform to the level of play needed. Clearly you don't see the similarities but IMHO, Mayfield 2.0 is in full swing in Berea. The names may have changed but the Browns and Stefanski's actions are so similar it's scary.
Nobody said that Baker the player was relevant. The handling of the QB injuries by Stefanski and the Browns is relevant and Watson's mirrors the mishandling of Mayfield's injury. As of today, Watson is no more ready to play than he was on September 25th. That's 4-weeks ago now and he should have been put on IR in retrospect. That said though, the commonalities between the way the injuries have been handled is eerily similar. Those professionals at the highest level in sports medicine did and continue to clear the players for play. Both players had and have had their injuries downplayed as to the seriousness and the effect it had/has on their ability to play at an appropriate level. Live practice throws are not live game throws, using that as the baseline and then ignoring the actual play results is an injustice to the fans and the player. Neither player should have been on the field even though they both said they were ready and medically cleared but clearly not close to being able to perform to the level of play needed. Clearly you don't see the similarities but IMHO, Mayfield 2.0 is in full swing in Berea. The names may have changed but the Browns and Stefanski's actions are so similar it's scary.
You should listen to Bernie Kosar's "analysis" of his similar compared to how DW's is. I watched him on The Ultimate Cleveland Sports Show explain how DW's shoulder injury could have been misdiagnosed and his availability from day to day been difficult to determine. He also described some details of that injury would explain Dw's first dump off pass to Ford being so off target. It made a lot of sense. Watson's first 5 passes convinced me he wasn't ready, but Bernie explained why the game time decision is not black and white. But maybe Bernie is just a shill for the Browns coaches and FO.
What is clear is that you continue to state things that you know nothing about.
You do not know what the medical staff tells the coaches. Medical clearance is about structural damage. What the staff reveals to only the coaches and player is private. In fact guarded.
You were not privy to any conversations that took place between KS and Baker. Baker's injury was not on his throwing shoulder. "If" Baker said I want to play. Then it is up to KS to make a decision.
The DW case stands on its own. Different circumstances and a different injury. It is only you that want to draw a comparison.
What any NFL head coach says to the media will always have a filter. Go around to any head coach of any team in the NFL and find out how guarded they are with the media about team injuries.
Good luck with that because they will give you nothing.
Nobody said that Baker the player was relevant. The handling of the QB injuries by Stefanski and the Browns is relevant and Watson's mirrors the mishandling of Mayfield's injury. As of today, Watson is no more ready to play than he was on September 25th. That's 4-weeks ago now and he should have been put on IR in retrospect. That said though, the commonalities between the way the injuries have been handled is eerily similar. Those professionals at the highest level in sports medicine did and continue to clear the players for play. Both players had and have had their injuries downplayed as to the seriousness and the effect it had/has on their ability to play at an appropriate level. Live practice throws are not live game throws, using that as the baseline and then ignoring the actual play results is an injustice to the fans and the player. Neither player should have been on the field even though they both said they were ready and medically cleared but clearly not close to being able to perform to the level of play needed. Clearly you don't see the similarities but IMHO, Mayfield 2.0 is in full swing in Berea. The names may have changed but the Browns and Stefanski's actions are so similar it's scary.
You should listen to Bernie Kosar's "analysis" of his similar compared to how DW's is. I watched him on The Ultimate Cleveland Sports Show explain how DW's shoulder injury could have been misdiagnosed and his availability from day to day been difficult to determine. He also described some details of that injury would explain Dw's first dump off pass to Ford being so off target. It made a lot of sense. Watson's first 5 passes convinced me he wasn't ready, but Bernie explained why the game time decision is not black and white. But maybe Bernie is just a shill for the Browns coaches and FO.
I watched that. Bernie's analysis made a lot of sense. I walked away thinking we better find a capable backup... pronto.
I don't play a doctor on tv and I sure don't have a medical degree.
However, IMO no two injuries are the same. No two bodies are identical. The medical staff for the Browns I am sure have examined DW in every way possible.
I have had two rotator cuff surgeries one on each shoulder. The time they took to heal was different.
Bernie may think it was the same. I am not so sure.
If DW practices today. What will be published on the Browns site will be. DNP, LP, FP. Injury listed as the week progresses will be questionable, doubtful, out.
I forgot that we didn't see him play last week. We didn't see the results of that and we didn't see him not be able to continue the first time he hit the turf. I also had no idea you needed to be a doctor to see those things.
So are you saying you didn't witness those five passes? He wasn't "taken out" of the game. He was injured to the point he could not continue and had to leave the game. Maybe there was a later point where he could have gone back into the game. But at the point he left the game he couldn't even raise his arm much less play QB. Were we watching the same game?
They have since confirmed the injury is worse than they first knew as well.
There have been rumors about a CFL QB Zach Collaros, he is 35, has won 2 grey cups as a starter, and 1 as a back-up. He currently plays for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers and is having a really good season. He is from Steubenville, Ohio. CFL players can opt out of their CFL contracts for a NFL deal. Don’t get me wrong I’m not advocating for him, but it would so Browns to sign a CFL player. He had a cup of coffee with TB last year.
That's why I try to understand what I see and is obvious. They have confirmed the injury is worse than they thought it was. I saw his performance on the field. I saw him leave the field unable to continue the first time he hit the turf.
And the actual reasons you gave seem somewhat confusing to me which is why I don't use what they are saying or doing as any actual evidence when my eyes and the news of his more serious injury are known to me.
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NFL teams go out of their way to keep the media in the dark.
And in doing so, they keep us in the dark also. I understand why they do it. But in that game of deception it's also us that gets deceived.
This has been a clown show since Baltimore.. how can anyone believe KS and the FO know anything at this point. its a very bad look. If they intend to stand by with the current QB group then they 100% are punting on this season and are betting next year with chubb back and watson healthy they will make the run. Nothing else makes sense.
There have been rumors about a CFL QB Zach Collaros, he is 35, has won 2 grey cups as a starter, and 1 as a back-up. He currently plays for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers and is having a really good season. He is from Steubenville, Ohio. CFL players can opt out of their CFL contracts for a NFL deal. Don’t get me wrong I’m not advocating for him, but it would so Browns to sign a CFL player. He had a cup of coffee with TB last year.
Frenchy...I watched some video of the Winipeg QB, Collaros and I just don't know enough about how Canadian Football translates or compares to the NFL. Callaros does seem to hang onto the ball a bit too long and takes some punishment because of that habit.
There have been rumors about a CFL QB Zach Collaros, he is 35, has won 2 grey cups as a starter, and 1 as a back-up. He currently plays for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers and is having a really good season. He is from Steubenville, Ohio. CFL players can opt out of their CFL contracts for a NFL deal. Don’t get me wrong I’m not advocating for him, but it would so Browns to sign a CFL player. He had a cup of coffee with TB last year.
Frenchy...I watched some video of the Winipeg QB, Collaros and I just don't know enough about how Canadian Football translates or compares to the NFL. Callaros does seem to hang onto the ball a bit too long and takes some punishment because of that habit.
I am starting to think out of the box regarding backup qbs.
Until recently in baseball what has been known as "a bullpen game" did not exist.
Now the term is accepted. And those games can be won.
Taysom Hill is a different kind of quarterback. He is like a TE who can throw passes but is like a fullback running.
I think there is a place in the NFL for guys like that as backup qbs. Defenses will have a hard time preparing for a pistol offense. Wildcat offenses have been in the NFL. They are not long term solutions but can be effective short term.
Only this week have I heard that DW's injury was with the subscapularis muscle, the largest muscle in the rotator cuff. Due to the location of the muscle and the difficulty in isolating its movement from other muscles, it makes sense why the messaging was initially so poor.
No trade for Brissett (or any other QB for that matter)!!! I know a lot less than our FO (obviously), but I don't understand this lack of action. I would rather see DTR on the field gaining experience as we must certainly know that Walker is not the answer.. We've pushed our good fortune to the limit the last 2 weeks, anything more is simply too much to expect....
So are you saying you didn't witness those five passes? He wasn't "taken out" of the game. He was injured to the point he could not continue and had to leave the game. Maybe there was a later point where he could have gone back into the game. But at the point he left the game he couldn't even raise his arm much less play QB. Were we watching the same game?
They have since confirmed the injury is worse than they first knew as well.
Originally Posted by bonefish
I am not trying to argue. The messaging has been confusing.
After being limited last Wednesday. He was listed as FP Thursday and Friday.
Now they are saying strain of his subscapularis – a muscle within the rotator cuff of his throwing shoulder.
I don't know what his condition is.
Sometime today we will find out if he practices or not.
I am left to go by what the team does. I am not going to speculate about his condition or if he will play.
NFL teams go out of their way to keep the media in the dark.
Are we ready to accept the fact that not only was Watson's injury more serious than reported and hampers his ability to play or still buying into the Stefanski "day to day" statement? The dude should have been on IR from the beginning, a wasted 4-weeks of healing. Now we watched Watson take a single hit in a game that not only shelfed him but clearly showed he couldn't even lift his arm on the sidelines. Three days later and the Browns are benching Watson again because of the injury yet still gambling with his and the team's future by not sticking the dude on IR so he can heal. Good god man, two out of three years the Browns and Stefanski are playing Russian Roulette with an injured QB, and you don't see a trend? We're past yoiur speculation phase - the dude has a serious injury whether you, Stefanski, or the Browns want to admit it.
I'm still holding out hope that they are working on something right now and they want to give Walker a full week of reps and see if there is any improvement, if its a dumpster fire then they still have a few days before the deadline after Seattle. I mean for a team that leans this hard into analytics, i'd love to see their take on the stats that are associated with our Qb's and offense as a whole and justify not doing anything. I think certain positions its worse to do nothing than knee jerk overreact, QB is one of those. I know DTR had a bad outing but he was better player than walker in college and his coaching failed him by putting him out there against baltimore with no reps . Walker on the other hand threw for 56% completion...in college.. thats pathetic. I think DTR has more upside and if we aren't going to sign a QB I rather have DTR to see what we have.
When you come with real information I will pay attention.
All you ever want to do is point a finger at KS even though you don't know what the hell is going on.
I'm thinking you don't really grasp what's going on. Easy to point a finger at KS because its him thats sending out all the bad information.. he absolutely should be held accountable for that, Berry as well. Noone is talking about Watson's injury in the media, all their are talking about is how bad our coaching staff and FO handled the communication. Sorry, people question KS/Berry on that are 100% correct.
When you come with real information I will pay attention.
All you ever want to do is point a finger at KS even though you don't know what the hell is going on.
I'm thinking you don't really grasp what's going on. Easy to point a finger at KS because its him thats sending out all the bad information.. he absolutely should be held accountable for that, Berry as well. Noone is talking about Watson's injury in the media, all their are talking about is how bad our coaching staff and FO handled the communication. Sorry, people question KS/Berry on that are 100% correct.
Stefanski hasn't been held accountable for the last 2-years so not holding him accountable for this mess in year 3 is just business as usual. He screwed the pooch when he kept playing an obviously injured Mayfield and is doing everything in his power to do it again. Even the most novice fan could see Watson shouldn't have been on the field last Sunday and yet all we hear from Stefanski about the injury is he's day-to-day until finally ruling him out today. I wonder if he can lift his arm yet, huh - day-to-day.
Do you think when the medical staff is providing their information it is all black and white?
You have made it clear that according to you KS is at fault for everything that happens.
DW is dealing with swelling. There is no exact time frame.
The record is 4-2. Deal with it.
Hard to swallow right. If we were 2-4 you could have written your epitaph, and got your pitchfork and noose out. You would not have been able to hit send fast enough.
Who knows maybe we will lose the rest of the games.
4-2 is a tremendous thing - why you assume I want the Browns to lose is baffling. That record though doesn't excuse Stefanski and Berry for not having a decent backup or the ridiculous poor communication on Watson's status. Just a comment about the defense, last season many on this forum constantly stated that Stefanski was not responsible for the poor defense and that it was all Wood's fault. If that was the case, giving the HC another pass, then he should deserve zero credit for the improved defense this year. However, he does have sole responsibility for the offense, and it has been suspect at best. You continue to want to give Stefanski a pass. I don't and after the last 2 years and the way he's handled the QB situation this year and in the past, he deserves the scrutiny whether you agree or not!
There has been miscommunication. I get why but I don't like it either.
The defense comment goes both ways. You were all over KS about the defense falls under his watch last year.
Ok then so does Schwartz this year. It is either Woods fault and KS handles only the offense. Or, it all is on KS and the defensive performance this year is partly because of KS. You want to blame him no matter what.
In regards to the backup. PJ is 2-0. It may not have been pretty but that is his record.
We don't know what PJ will do. In fact he doesn't know because he has never been in this particular situation before.
This guy got here for a reason. You don't know and neither do I how he will perform. We didn't evaluate him and sign him.
I'm still holding out hope that they are working on something right now and they want to give Walker a full week of reps and see if there is any improvement, if its a dumpster fire then they still have a few days before the deadline after Seattle.
My concern there that it is a dumpster fire -- or worse -- imagine an injury. Seattle game could definitely put a damper on negotiation tactics and price.
Nobody said that Baker the player was relevant. The handling of the QB injuries by Stefanski and the Browns is relevant and Watson's mirrors the mishandling of Mayfield's injury. As of today, Watson is no more ready to play than he was on September 25th. That's 4-weeks ago now and he should have been put on IR in retrospect. That said though, the commonalities between the way the injuries have been handled is eerily similar. Those professionals at the highest level in sports medicine did and continue to clear the players for play. Both players had and have had their injuries downplayed as to the seriousness and the effect it had/has on their ability to play at an appropriate level. Live practice throws are not live game throws, using that as the baseline and then ignoring the actual play results is an injustice to the fans and the player. Neither player should have been on the field even though they both said they were ready and medically cleared but clearly not close to being able to perform to the level of play needed. Clearly you don't see the similarities but IMHO, Mayfield 2.0 is in full swing in Berea. The names may have changed but the Browns and Stefanski's actions are so similar it's scary.
You should listen to Bernie Kosar's "analysis" of his similar compared to how DW's is. I watched him on The Ultimate Cleveland Sports Show explain how DW's shoulder injury could have been misdiagnosed and his availability from day to day been difficult to determine. He also described some details of that injury would explain Dw's first dump off pass to Ford being so off target. It made a lot of sense. Watson's first 5 passes convinced me he wasn't ready, but Bernie explained why the game time decision is not black and white. But maybe Bernie is just a shill for the Browns coaches and FO.
I watched that. Bernie's analysis made a lot of sense. I walked away thinking we better find a capable backup... pronto.
It made me understand how difficult it is with that particular injury to determine if he should splay or not. Additional QB help sounds warranted.
You know, it's a funny thing. When the team is losing the Stefanski haters claim "You are what your record says you are". Until suddenly the Browns are 4-2. Then it changes to, "The record has nothing to do with it". Really strange how that works. Or doesn't work as the case may be.
Dobbs was the backup. IMO he was signed because they knew him. Also because in some ways his style of play is somewhat like DW. Dobbs is a mobile quarterback.
DTR was drafted. He also resembles the same style of play. Mobile type of qb.
DTR outplays Dobbs in preseason. It was decided that DTR was good enough to be the backup; making Dobbs expendable.
DTR becomes the backup. Then the whole injury ordeal with DW begins. Day to day, he should play, medically cleared etc.
Last minute on a Wedesday; DTR get ready. You are going to start against the Ravens. A team that knows us well.
The moment looks to big for DTR. He plays poorly. IMO it is completely understandable. It is DTR's first NFL start.
The next week DTR is down the depth chart and on the bench. IMO he had little chance against the Ravens. You don't pull the plug on him based upon that start.
Ok it is decided DTR is not ready. PJ who has more overall experience gets promoted. DW is still day to day. Condition unknown.
PJ gets the start his first pass to Cooper is on Wednesday of game week. We beat the Niners. DW returns to start. Takes a shot and is removed from play. PJ gets the win.
Now DW goes back to rehab. Status is week to week.
Is PJ really better than DTR? DTR has been with the team since the draft. PJ is recently off the practice squad.
I am assuming PJ looks to be the better option between the two. That is ok. However how did DTR drop so fast? He played really well in the preseason. I know it is preseason. But it was enough to send Dobbs packing.
Now everyone wants another backup. I am not sure we know what either PJ or DTR can do. I like Jacoby. He is a good dude.
I felt DTR would have fared better had we gameplanned for his strengths of running and rolling out ... and tailored the plays to be shorter drops, screens, etc
That's not saying he's better than Walker, but he had no chance that first game
DTR played against the scrubs. Come on man. He was a very capable backup and an upgrade over anything else the Browns had. They traded him away for a ham sandwich and a six pack. It's okay to admit this FO blew that call. it happens sometimes. Just like it's fine to give them credit for signing Hopkins. In that case they did an excellent job.
DTR is better than PJ long term. He may or may not be better than PJ this Sunday. I honestly think keeping DTR on the bench is all about protecting the future. He was never supposed to play this soon. Give the kid time to grow and learn in the NFL. It also, at least in my brain, speaks volumes about what the org is beginning to think (or not think) about the long term future of Watson when we're seemingly protecting DTR for the future. Watson, on the other hand, if he can lift his arm - roll him out there. Might as well get something for that $230M.
There is nothing this front office..Berry, Haslam, Depo and Stefanski hate to do more, than admit they might have misjudged roster talent.
The question becomes, are those in charge of running the Browns franchise willing to risk a good shot at the Playoffs by doing nothing to fix the misjudgment they made about manning the Browns BackUP QB position...using a 5th round rookie DTR, who looked terrible against starting caliber talent (Ravens)?
If the Browns were going to make a run at Brissett, this week would have been the best time to complete a deal, (imo)...Washington's remaining schedule is tough and who knows when they might need Brissett to take over as their fill-in?
As of now, our front office is just fine DOING NOTHING..!
Not sure what direction Berry will take with possible trades.
I imagine a lot depends on his opinion of PJ Walker and the condition of DW. When is it safe to say DW is healthy?
Looking at other positions besides quarterback. If there is an available running back who is an upgrade?
Right now I don't know where we are with receivers. We have not been good enough at quarterback to tell. If we were selling and trying to get draft picks. It would be different.
Right now I have no idea what if anything that we end up doing.
One QB who possibly could be available is Ryan Tannehill. The Titans might be ready to hand over the season to their second rounder Will Levis and start preparing for next year. Tannehill is recovering from an ankle sprain (should be back next week) and is in the last year of his contract. Not that I am big on him, but a possible scenario could be to package him with Henry. Both are past their primes and shouldn't cost as much in capital.
Only this week have I heard that DW's injury was with the subscapularis muscle, the largest muscle in the rotator cuff. Due to the location of the muscle and the difficulty in isolating its movement from other muscles, it makes sense why the messaging was initially so poor.
Listening to Bernie Kosar in an interview the stories seem to make sense.
A trade rumor is floating around Cleveland Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson in Week 8 following an intriguing report by NBC Sports’ Mike Florio. The Browns gave up three first-round picks for Watson in the 2022 offseason. The 28-year-old quarterback signed a five-year deal worth $230 million in 2022.
The Browns haven’t gotten their money’s worth yet. Watson didn’t look himself last season when he came back from suspension. He’s struggled with injuries and has only played in four games this season, and had to leave their Week 7 game after only passing the ball five times.
The Cleveland Browns are winning with a backup QB
Watson’s play has not been good this season, either. He’s completing just 61.7 percent of his passes and has thrown four touchdowns to three interceptions. Despite the Watson situation, the Browns are 4-2 and have won two straight games, including an upset of the San Francisco 49ers, with backup quarterback P.J. Walker leading the team.
Watson’s absence in the previous few weeks has confused fans and pundits. Florio is reporting Browns players thought Watson would play against the Baltimore Ravens in Week 4 when he was medically cleared to play. Watson did not play in the 28-3 blowout loss to the Ravens.
Watson didn’t play the following week against the 49ers, and he played a handful of snaps before leaving the Colts game after suffering a brutal hit. Watson has already been ruled out for Week 8.
Ian Rapoport with the NFL Network said the nature of Watson’s injury, a rotator cuff strain, is a four-to-six-week injury. Rapoport doesn’t think Watson’s absence since the Ravens contest is out of bounds for that type of injury.
Would the Browns trade Deshaun Watson?
However, Florio isn’t so sure there isn’t another reason Watson isn’t suiting up Sunday. Florio pointed to examples of Watson playing injured Clemson and with the Houston Texans. Watson even rode a bus to play for the Texans because he couldn’t travel by plane with a rib injury.
Florio wrote Watson might want out of Clevland and thinks the Browns could shop Watson before the trade deadline:
“That said, it would be naive to not at least wonder whether Watson has fallen out of love with the Browns. He wanted out of Houston just a few months after signing a big-money extension. Also, the Browns were the first team Watson scratched from his list of four finalists in 2022, before the Browns offered a five-year, fully-guaranteed contract.
So, yes, there’s a weird vibe. Neither the team nor Watson have said or done anything to change the situation. And we’ll continue to monitor things and generally to sniff around about whether the honeymoon has devolved into a standoff that, frankly, leaves both sides with few good options, given that Watson is due to make $46 million in 2023, in 2024, and in 2025, with every penny of it fully guaranteed.
It’s almost enough to make us wonder whether a surprise trade could happen before next Tuesday. At this point, however, who would take on the balance of that contract?”
Woah…The Browns still haven’t paid off their trade to the Texans for Watson. They still owe Houston a 2024 first-round pick. With Watson’s recent play and injuries, what would another team be willing to give up in return for the former first-round pick?
More importantly, that guaranteed salary is another issue for a player who will come to a new franchise and fanbase with baggage for off-the-field and now-on-the-field reasons.
The Browns and Watson might not want each other now, but they’re stuck.
Maybe I am wrong but I find this type of "reporting" offensive.
Unless there is verified information from a reliable source I think this is total BS.
Why on earth would DW want out of Cleveland? He already has a dark cloud over his head. Trying to get away from an owner and team that has gone all out for him?
That makes no sense. He is trying to rebuild his reputation. The team has been nothing but supportive. He is guaranteed the money. There has been zero friction between the coaches and teammates.
There may be a trade in the works but it is not DW IMO. First off who is going to take on his contract? No team is more vested in a player than the Browns are.
I think this is irresponsible. Florio is barking for attention.
Deshaun Watson finally breaks his silence on ongoing injury Quarterback Deshaun Watson has explained his story regarding a mysterious shoulder injury.
Cleveland Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson finally came out and explained the situation surrounding his shoulder injury. The $230 million quarterback has seen his 2023 season plagued with an injury. Watson missed the week four game against the Baltimore Ravens and then sat out against the San Francisco 49ers following Cleveland's bye week.
At the time, the Browns were awfully secretive with the media. NFL insiders hinted that Watson was fit to play. However, he continued to spend time on the sidelines. Moreover, Cleveland refused to make Watson available for post-practice interviews.
Last Sunday, the story took another bizarre turn. After three weeks on the sideline, Watson returned to the starting lineup. However, the veteran quarterback left the game with another injury. At the time, some speculated if it was a concussion. Cleveland confirmed it was not a concussion but a shoulder problem reoccurrence.
This week, the Browns confirmed that Watson would miss Sunday's game against the Seattle Seahawks due to the injury's flare-up. Fans and media pundits have hit out at Cleveland and Watson; some ex-players have questioned whether Watson wants to play.
Watson finally broke his media silence and provided his perspective. Watson said, "Why wouldn't I want to play? I've worked my ass off for two years to get back to playing, so why wouldn't I want to play?"
Watson confirmed he played through the pain barrier last week. "I wouldn't sit here and say I felt perfect on Friday. I was pushing through it because I'm a competitor. I felt like I had enough."
Watson continued, saying, "At the same time, I wasn't 100 per cent last week. So I try, like I said before, to go through the game, see if I can make the throws, and make the plays. I thought I was ready; wasn't ready."
Browns head coach Kevin Stefanski said he took Watson out of the game to protect the quarterback. One thing is for sure: this ongoing confusion will not go away. The Browns are 4-2 and are playing very well. But all the attention is fixed on a player who has not played a full game since September 24th. It could distract the team, and Watson's clarification may fuel the fire.
Maybe I am wrong but I find this type of "reporting" offensive.
Unless there is verified information from a reliable source I think this is total BS.
bone...based on the statements and comments from the Browns, especially Stefanski and Watson, would you consider them as a "reliable source" as they attempt to explain Watson's injury status..?
JMO, but the Browns have acted as if they are trying to hide something.
Reporters wear different hats and it doesn't take them long to switch from the "reporting mode" to the "investigative mode" if they believe someone is not telling the truth when questioned about a specific topic.
That is what good reporters and journalists do...they dig for the truth.
Personally, I have no idea what the truth is, concerning Watson's injury situation or if their might be an internal rift between Watson and the front office boys.
Most are still trying to make sense of the "stuff" that is being reported in the media.
A trade rumor is floating around Cleveland Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson in Week 8 following an intriguing report by NBC Sports’ Mike Florio. The Browns gave up three first-round picks for Watson in the 2022 offseason. The 28-year-old quarterback signed a five-year deal worth $230 million in 2022.
The Browns haven’t gotten their money’s worth yet. Watson didn’t look himself last season when he came back from suspension. He’s struggled with injuries and has only played in four games this season, and had to leave their Week 7 game after only passing the ball five times.
The Cleveland Browns are winning with a backup QB
Watson’s play has not been good this season, either. He’s completing just 61.7 percent of his passes and has thrown four touchdowns to three interceptions. Despite the Watson situation, the Browns are 4-2 and have won two straight games, including an upset of the San Francisco 49ers, with backup quarterback P.J. Walker leading the team.
Watson’s absence in the previous few weeks has confused fans and pundits. Florio is reporting Browns players thought Watson would play against the Baltimore Ravens in Week 4 when he was medically cleared to play. Watson did not play in the 28-3 blowout loss to the Ravens.
Watson didn’t play the following week against the 49ers, and he played a handful of snaps before leaving the Colts game after suffering a brutal hit. Watson has already been ruled out for Week 8.
Ian Rapoport with the NFL Network said the nature of Watson’s injury, a rotator cuff strain, is a four-to-six-week injury. Rapoport doesn’t think Watson’s absence since the Ravens contest is out of bounds for that type of injury.
Would the Browns trade Deshaun Watson?
However, Florio isn’t so sure there isn’t another reason Watson isn’t suiting up Sunday. Florio pointed to examples of Watson playing injured Clemson and with the Houston Texans. Watson even rode a bus to play for the Texans because he couldn’t travel by plane with a rib injury.
Florio wrote Watson might want out of Clevland and thinks the Browns could shop Watson before the trade deadline:
“That said, it would be naive to not at least wonder whether Watson has fallen out of love with the Browns. He wanted out of Houston just a few months after signing a big-money extension. Also, the Browns were the first team Watson scratched from his list of four finalists in 2022, before the Browns offered a five-year, fully-guaranteed contract.
So, yes, there’s a weird vibe. Neither the team nor Watson have said or done anything to change the situation. And we’ll continue to monitor things and generally to sniff around about whether the honeymoon has devolved into a standoff that, frankly, leaves both sides with few good options, given that Watson is due to make $46 million in 2023, in 2024, and in 2025, with every penny of it fully guaranteed.
It’s almost enough to make us wonder whether a surprise trade could happen before next Tuesday. At this point, however, who would take on the balance of that contract?”
Woah…The Browns still haven’t paid off their trade to the Texans for Watson. They still owe Houston a 2024 first-round pick. With Watson’s recent play and injuries, what would another team be willing to give up in return for the former first-round pick?
More importantly, that guaranteed salary is another issue for a player who will come to a new franchise and fanbase with baggage for off-the-field and now-on-the-field reasons.
The Browns and Watson might not want each other now, but they’re stuck.
The issue is the same issue it always has been: total confusion with the communication. First it was a contusion then 3-weeks later it is decided that it's a muscle strain. As Watson continues to miss games the injury becomes something more serious. It's not like this is the first instance of total confusion with the Browns communications with injuries. Stefanski and the Browns FO are their own worst enemy - self-inflicted doubt because of such poor communication. Of course, why would anyone think any different, it's business as usual in Berea and the chaos continues.
As far as Watson the player goes, does it surprise anyone that rumors have popped up about him wanting out of Cleveland considering his documented past history? I have no idea whether the rumors are true or not but not surprised at all that the media is going down that road considering his past history and the total failure with the communication. Sometimes the Browns are their own worst enemy.
Everything surrounding the DW injury has been intentionally vague.
That is no different than how every team handles injury reports with the media.
To imply there is a riff between DW and team is nothing but an attempt to get attention.
Florio writes "Watson might want out of Clevland and thinks the Browns could shop Watson before the trade deadline:" Well he might want to climb Mt Everest when the season ends.
Why would DW tell Florio that? That is total BS. Where did he hear that? Who inside the Browns would say that to Florio?
Florio should STFU. Report on who is playing this week. That is all he is good for.
Bone...here is another opinion where a reporter attempted to decipher all the confusion surrounding Watson's injury situation.
Maybe you will like this opinion better...
But try to keep in mind, this is what good journalists and reporters do when they think someone is not being honest when questioned...they dig and even speculate about what the truth is.
If teams would just be truthful when asked a question by the media...simply tell the truth.
Bone...this is a good read that brings up how certain variables can change a story. Stuff that might have an impact on what the Browns try to do to make the team better and improve the Browns chances of making the playoffs.
When it comes to Cleveland Browns QB Deshaun Watson the answer to most questions are “We don’t know.”
How bad is his injury? When can he return? Will he ever be the guy he was in Houston? Will he ever live up to the trade and contract? We don’t know.
Based on Watson’s comments this week, it seems that he and the team don’t know much about the injury’s timeline. With the NFL trade deadline around the corner (Tuesday, October 31st), GM Andrew Berry might have difficult decisions.
So far, NFL rumors have been minimal, not just about the Browns but around the league. There is an expectation that trades could happen, including with running backs, but we are unlikely to hear real rumors until Sunday night going into Monday.
For Berry, Watson’s injury muddies the waters of the NFL trade deadline.
If Watson as healthy, and playing even mediocre football, adding a running back, wide receiver and/or offensive lineman would make a ton of sense, for the right price. With no timetable for Watson’s return, and his poor performance most of the year (all but Week 3), it is likely that no move really moves the needle for the team.
Does trading away one of the few picks the team has in the first four rounds worth raising the team’s potential from “could make the playoffs” to “could make the playoffs” worth it?
With the play of the team’s defense, Cleveland could be in every game they play. With the playoff of the team’s offense, the ceiling for this Browns group is pretty clear as well.
Given the team’s limited draft capital next year (we get to stop saying that starting in 2025) and their limited cap space (that will be true for awhile longer), making a trade to barely impact the team’s playoff and championship odds seems fruitless. That doesn’t mean Berry shouldn’t swap a late-round pick to add a marginal talent but any meaningful trades will likely be impacted by how Watson is doing on Monday and early Tuesday of next week.
Given the uncertainty around Watson, what do you think the Browns should do at the NFL trade deadline?
Didn't read the previous pages but I think Dalvin Cook is a guy I would try to get if the FO believes that Hunt isn't the full time guy. As for saving draft picks, well, the Browns already demonstrated they want to win now so let's do something to fix the Wills situation while we're at it. If DW comes back and the Browns are 4-4 or better, this team should be ready to go with their defense. The offense just has to manage the game and not give the ball away. Is there any AFC team you are afraid of from a defensive standpoint? I'm not. But I do agree that you need to find a willing partner. Let's see what happens.
I agree 100% with this gentleman’s assessment of the situation. We have to move forward with an alternate plan. Maybe DW will play maybe he won’t. Maybe PJ will develop some. He does have some talent. I still feel we should get a Vet QB for some insurance. JMO
LOL, you want positive? Myles Garrett is playing his azz off again for the Browns. It's a pleasure watching him bust his azz for this franchise that to this point has wasted his elite play. Not unlike Joe Thomas, it's criminal what the Browns are doing to this guy's career. We can add Chubb, Teller, and Bitonio to that list of players that have dedicated their careers by being NFL elites at their positions yet having to deal with consistent failures by HC's and the FO that's no fault of their own. They deserve better than the continued crap shoot that occurs every year in Cleveland. You, my friend, are always waving your rah rah flag for the Browns. That's fine with me but I look at the wasted talent that keeps occurring every year and just shake my head. Sad as it is, these guys have held out and remained committed but what do they get in return? Keep in mind that the Browns had Mitchel Schwartz that left the Browns for less money to KCC to be a 4-time All Pro because of this crap. They also had Pro Bowl Center Alex Mack that darted from Cleveland because of this continued FO, HC mess that continues to this day. Why these guys are still here in Cleveland baffles me sometimes.
So, yeah, I'm negative about some aspects of the Browns and for good reason. I'm watching elite players spending the last 3-years playing for a team that is barely better than .500 with yearly chaos. Now we're in 2023 and that same crap has raised its ugly head and though the Browns are 4-2, only by the luck of God we have won the last 2-games. They deserve better than that, the fans deserve better than that, and I'm frustrated at watching the same excuse driven team I've watched for the last 25 years with no accountability with the waste of players that deserve better.
If that upsets you, I'm sorry. Garrett is in his 6th season waiting for this franchise to build a winner around his elite talent - as has Chubb, Teller and Bitonio. I've been waiting even longer. Stefanski and Berry fully deserve the criticism and I'll post about it. Hopefully, something changes before these elite players decide to dart like those before because they certainly deserve better that what's been happening. Afterall, the Browns already wasted the career of the best LT that ever played and they're doing the same to the best DE too!
LOL, you want positive? Myles Garrett is playing his azz off again for the Browns. It's a pleasure watching him bust his azz for this franchise that to this point has wasted his elite play. Not unlike Joe Thomas, it's criminal what the Browns are doing to this guy's career. We can add Chubb, Teller, and Bitonio to that list of players that have dedicated their careers by being NFL elites at their positions yet having to deal with consistent failures by HC's and the FO that's no fault of their own. They deserve better than the continued crap shoot that occurs every year in Cleveland. You, my friend, are always waving your rah rah flag for the Browns. That's fine with me but I look at the wasted talent that keeps occurring every year and just shake my head. Sad as it is, these guys have held out and remained committed but what do they get in return? Keep in mind that the Browns had Mitchel Schwartz that left the Browns for less money to KCC to be a 4-time All Pro because of this crap. They also had Pro Bowl Center Alex Mack that darted from Cleveland because of this continued FO, HC mess that continues to this day. Why these guys are still here in Cleveland baffles me sometimes.
So, yeah, I'm negative about some aspects of the Browns and for good reason. I'm watching elite players spending the last 3-years playing for a team that is barely better than .500 with yearly chaos. Now we're in 2023 and that same crap has raised its ugly head and though the Browns are 4-2, only by the luck of God we have won the last 2-games. They deserve better than that, the fans deserve better than that, and I'm frustrated at watching the same excuse driven team I've watched for the last 25 years with no accountability with the waste of players that deserve better.
If that upsets you, I'm sorry. Garrett is in his 6th season waiting for this franchise to build a winner around his elite talent - as has Chubb, Teller and Bitonio. I've been waiting even longer. Stefanski and Berry fully deserve the criticism and I'll post about it. Hopefully, something changes before these elite players decide to dart like those before because they certainly deserve better that what's been happening. Afterall, the Browns already wasted the career of the best LT that ever played and they're doing the same to the best DE too!
If we are being honest, let's list the reasons in order that the players you mentioned careers are being wasted.
1. Baker Mayfield did not live up to the #1 overall pick. I hope everyone watched him play last night. He is still the same player; he has not incrementally improved since he got in the league. This is the single biggest reason the Browns have not been able to turn this thing around; his immaturity and inability to get better has set the franchise back and put them in a position to even pursue Watson.
2. Stefanski is still a question mark.
3. Decades worth of a losing culture, hang your head mentality to overcome.
Berry has done everything he possibly can to turn this thing around and is not a part of the issue. Every single year he addresses what needs to be addressed. Every year he hands Stefanski one of the most talented teams in the league.
I know you're still upset about Baker, but you really should be blaming him for your grievances. Stefanski shoulders blame as well. Berry, to me, should be here for the long haul.
I think the injury is one that takes time to heal, and you can't really heal if your are throwing the ball around.
How long does that take? I don't know. But it was really clear that Watson should have not been playing on Sunday.
KS should have put Baker on the shelf when the shoulder was hurt. History repeats itself, except the backup QB is not as talented as Case was.
So the Browns are sitting at 4-2 and should probably be looking for a QB.
I like the thought of Cooper Rush.
I don't by into a lot of the Watson drama offered in the media. I think a lot of articles by fringe media sites are just terrible with some yahoo behind a keyboard making up crap to stir the pot.
LOL, you want positive? Myles Garrett is playing his azz off again for the Browns. It's a pleasure watching him bust his azz for this franchise that to this point has wasted his elite play. Not unlike Joe Thomas, it's criminal what the Browns are doing to this guy's career. We can add Chubb, Teller, and Bitonio to that list of players that have dedicated their careers by being NFL elites at their positions yet having to deal with consistent failures by HC's and the FO that's no fault of their own. They deserve better than the continued crap shoot that occurs every year in Cleveland. You, my friend, are always waving your rah rah flag for the Browns. That's fine with me but I look at the wasted talent that keeps occurring every year and just shake my head. Sad as it is, these guys have held out and remained committed but what do they get in return? Keep in mind that the Browns had Mitchel Schwartz that left the Browns for less money to KCC to be a 4-time All Pro because of this crap. They also had Pro Bowl Center Alex Mack that darted from Cleveland because of this continued FO, HC mess that continues to this day. Why these guys are still here in Cleveland baffles me sometimes.
So, yeah, I'm negative about some aspects of the Browns and for good reason. I'm watching elite players spending the last 3-years playing for a team that is barely better than .500 with yearly chaos. Now we're in 2023 and that same crap has raised its ugly head and though the Browns are 4-2, only by the luck of God we have won the last 2-games. They deserve better than that, the fans deserve better than that, and I'm frustrated at watching the same excuse driven team I've watched for the last 25 years with no accountability with the waste of players that deserve better.
If that upsets you, I'm sorry. Garrett is in his 6th season waiting for this franchise to build a winner around his elite talent - as has Chubb, Teller and Bitonio. I've been waiting even longer. Stefanski and Berry fully deserve the criticism and I'll post about it. Hopefully, something changes before these elite players decide to dart like those before because they certainly deserve better that what's been happening. Afterall, the Browns already wasted the career of the best LT that ever played and they're doing the same to the best DE too!
If we are being honest, let's list the reasons in order that the players you mentioned careers are being wasted.
1. Baker Mayfield did not live up to the #1 overall pick. I hope everyone watched him play last night. He is still the same player; he has not incrementally improved since he got in the league. This is the single biggest reason the Browns have not been able to turn this thing around; his immaturity and inability to get better has set the franchise back and put them in a position to even pursue Watson.
2. Stefanski is still a question mark.
3. Decades worth of a losing culture, hang your head mentality to overcome.
Berry has done everything he possibly can to turn this thing around and is not a part of the issue. Every single year he addresses what needs to be addressed. Every year he hands Stefanski one of the most talented teams in the league.
I know you're still upset about Baker, but you really should be blaming him for your grievances. Stefanski shoulders blame as well. Berry, to me, should be here for the long haul.
um..no.. most of the time I agree with majority of your takes.. I agree with most of what you said with the exception of Berry. He hasn't drafted anyone that could be considered a game changer or even probowl caliber. He also has a bad habit of not admitting failure and moving on. Schwartz was the first player he drafted he ever cut.. theres been some duds too that could have easily been upgraded. I will say he does go out and get decent players via trades and FA, but any GM can do that, its not sustainable. You have to be able to draft your own players and develop them. Which leads to your point on stefanski. I can't think of a single player thats gotten better coming here and I can think of a bunch that got worse on the offensive side of the ball. But you have to draft to be able to sustain because its the cheapest way. And trading 6 picks for watson should cost him his job and rightfully so, that was a huge swing and a miss on a player that had a ton of question marks and drama surrounding him. We would have been better off drafting one and keeping brissett to be a bridge
LOL, you want positive? Myles Garrett is playing his azz off again for the Browns. It's a pleasure watching him bust his azz for this franchise that to this point has wasted his elite play. Not unlike Joe Thomas, it's criminal what the Browns are doing to this guy's career. We can add Chubb, Teller, and Bitonio to that list of players that have dedicated their careers by being NFL elites at their positions yet having to deal with consistent failures by HC's and the FO that's no fault of their own. They deserve better than the continued crap shoot that occurs every year in Cleveland. You, my friend, are always waving your rah rah flag for the Browns. That's fine with me but I look at the wasted talent that keeps occurring every year and just shake my head. Sad as it is, these guys have held out and remained committed but what do they get in return? Keep in mind that the Browns had Mitchel Schwartz that left the Browns for less money to KCC to be a 4-time All Pro because of this crap. They also had Pro Bowl Center Alex Mack that darted from Cleveland because of this continued FO, HC mess that continues to this day. Why these guys are still here in Cleveland baffles me sometimes.
So, yeah, I'm negative about some aspects of the Browns and for good reason. I'm watching elite players spending the last 3-years playing for a team that is barely better than .500 with yearly chaos. Now we're in 2023 and that same crap has raised its ugly head and though the Browns are 4-2, only by the luck of God we have won the last 2-games. They deserve better than that, the fans deserve better than that, and I'm frustrated at watching the same excuse driven team I've watched for the last 25 years with no accountability with the waste of players that deserve better.
If that upsets you, I'm sorry. Garrett is in his 6th season waiting for this franchise to build a winner around his elite talent - as has Chubb, Teller and Bitonio. I've been waiting even longer. Stefanski and Berry fully deserve the criticism and I'll post about it. Hopefully, something changes before these elite players decide to dart like those before because they certainly deserve better that what's been happening. Afterall, the Browns already wasted the career of the best LT that ever played and they're doing the same to the best DE too!
If we are being honest, let's list the reasons in order that the players you mentioned careers are being wasted.
1. Baker Mayfield did not live up to the #1 overall pick. I hope everyone watched him play last night. He is still the same player; he has not incrementally improved since he got in the league. This is the single biggest reason the Browns have not been able to turn this thing around; his immaturity and inability to get better has set the franchise back and put them in a position to even pursue Watson.
2. Stefanski is still a question mark.
3. Decades worth of a losing culture, hang your head mentality to overcome.
Berry has done everything he possibly can to turn this thing around and is not a part of the issue. Every single year he addresses what needs to be addressed. Every year he hands Stefanski one of the most talented teams in the league.
I know you're still upset about Baker, but you really should be blaming him for your grievances. Stefanski shoulders blame as well. Berry, to me, should be here for the long haul.
I didn't say a word about Mayfield in that post. He is gone and that's that and has no bearing on the current issues I talked about.
A trade rumor is floating around Cleveland Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson in Week 8 following an intriguing report by NBC Sports’ Mike Florio. The Browns gave up three first-round picks for Watson in the 2022 offseason. The 28-year-old quarterback signed a five-year deal worth $230 million in 2022.
The Browns haven’t gotten their money’s worth yet. Watson didn’t look himself last season when he came back from suspension. He’s struggled with injuries and has only played in four games this season, and had to leave their Week 7 game after only passing the ball five times.
The Cleveland Browns are winning with a backup QB
Watson’s play has not been good this season, either. He’s completing just 61.7 percent of his passes and has thrown four touchdowns to three interceptions. Despite the Watson situation, the Browns are 4-2 and have won two straight games, including an upset of the San Francisco 49ers, with backup quarterback P.J. Walker leading the team.
Watson’s absence in the previous few weeks has confused fans and pundits. Florio is reporting Browns players thought Watson would play against the Baltimore Ravens in Week 4 when he was medically cleared to play. Watson did not play in the 28-3 blowout loss to the Ravens.
Watson didn’t play the following week against the 49ers, and he played a handful of snaps before leaving the Colts game after suffering a brutal hit. Watson has already been ruled out for Week 8.
Ian Rapoport with the NFL Network said the nature of Watson’s injury, a rotator cuff strain, is a four-to-six-week injury. Rapoport doesn’t think Watson’s absence since the Ravens contest is out of bounds for that type of injury.
Would the Browns trade Deshaun Watson?
However, Florio isn’t so sure there isn’t another reason Watson isn’t suiting up Sunday. Florio pointed to examples of Watson playing injured Clemson and with the Houston Texans. Watson even rode a bus to play for the Texans because he couldn’t travel by plane with a rib injury.
Florio wrote Watson might want out of Clevland and thinks the Browns could shop Watson before the trade deadline:
“That said, it would be naive to not at least wonder whether Watson has fallen out of love with the Browns. He wanted out of Houston just a few months after signing a big-money extension. Also, the Browns were the first team Watson scratched from his list of four finalists in 2022, before the Browns offered a five-year, fully-guaranteed contract.
So, yes, there’s a weird vibe. Neither the team nor Watson have said or done anything to change the situation. And we’ll continue to monitor things and generally to sniff around about whether the honeymoon has devolved into a standoff that, frankly, leaves both sides with few good options, given that Watson is due to make $46 million in 2023, in 2024, and in 2025, with every penny of it fully guaranteed.
It’s almost enough to make us wonder whether a surprise trade could happen before next Tuesday. At this point, however, who would take on the balance of that contract?”
Woah…The Browns still haven’t paid off their trade to the Texans for Watson. They still owe Houston a 2024 first-round pick. With Watson’s recent play and injuries, what would another team be willing to give up in return for the former first-round pick?
More importantly, that guaranteed salary is another issue for a player who will come to a new franchise and fanbase with baggage for off-the-field and now-on-the-field reasons.
The Browns and Watson might not want each other now, but they’re stuck.
Sports news for 10/26/23L
This is complete trash.
There's not a single word in print from Florio. I'm guessing this yahoo pulled the words "trade" and "Watson" from some audio and decided to turn it into a full-blown piece of garbage.
I'm glad you think guesswork and conjecture mean something. Let me tell you what it means. In this case it means it's sending the message you wish to support and believe. Nothing else.
If we are being honest, let's list the reasons in order that the players you mentioned careers are being wasted.
1. Baker Mayfield did not live up to the #1 overall pick. I hope everyone watched him play last night. He is still the same player; he has not incrementally improved since he got in the league. This is the single biggest reason the Browns have not been able to turn this thing around; his immaturity and inability to get better has set the franchise back and put them in a position to even pursue Watson.
2. Stefanski is still a question mark.
3. Decades worth of a losing culture, hang your head mentality to overcome.
Berry has done everything he possibly can to turn this thing around and is not a part of the issue. Every single year he addresses what needs to be addressed. Every year he hands Stefanski one of the most talented teams in the league.
I know you're still upset about Baker, but you really should be blaming him for your grievances. Stefanski shoulders blame as well. Berry, to me, should be here for the long haul.
Garrett, Chubb, Bitonio and Teller have earned a playoff birth once in their careers. Baker was the QB that year - we (STR) hadn't been to a playoff game since around the time Baker was in pre-school. Damn him. Schwartz and Mack were long gone before Baker even got here. Listing Baker here is silliness. Warts and all...he's hardly the reason that those ^ 'careers' are being wasted.
So...the HC who was here and couldn't make it work with Baker is STILL here and STILL can't tailor an offense to his next QB. Maybe he just needs more talent at QB? For his signature WIN he was locked in his basement at home as if he were running for President;
Decades worth of losing and dropping the 'loser' mentality...that we've had for decades...had it's only few bright spots under that darned QB who took us to the playoffs and beat the Steelers in the playoffs.
Berry is responsible for:
The entire Watson debacle, wasted draft picks - including (3) 1st Rders - and 230 million flushed down the toilet;
Spending more $$$ than any other team in the league only to have losing seasons and more drama than an 8th grade dance team;
A 2022 team with me and Tab at DT and a QB carousel of his own making...another wasted season;
A 2023 team with Super Bowl aspirations now with PJ Walker as its backup QB...playing from the practice squad over the guy that Berry decided would be our only backup QB at the start of the season. Fortunately, the QB position isn't all that important (/purple) ;
An extended LT who regularly ranks lower than the total number of starting OTs in the league.
Damn that QB from (2) seasons ago for wasting all that talent.
"So...the HC who was here and couldn't make it work with Baker is STILL here and STILL can't tailor an offense to his next QB. Maybe he just needs more talent at QB? For his signature WIN he was locked in his basement at home as if he were running for President;"
A trade rumor is floating around Cleveland Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson in Week 8 following an intriguing report by NBC Sports’ Mike Florio. The Browns gave up three first-round picks for Watson in the 2022 offseason. The 28-year-old quarterback signed a five-year deal worth $230 million in 2022.
The Browns haven’t gotten their money’s worth yet. Watson didn’t look himself last season when he came back from suspension. He’s struggled with injuries and has only played in four games this season, and had to leave their Week 7 game after only passing the ball five times.
The Cleveland Browns are winning with a backup QB
Watson’s play has not been good this season, either. He’s completing just 61.7 percent of his passes and has thrown four touchdowns to three interceptions. Despite the Watson situation, the Browns are 4-2 and have won two straight games, including an upset of the San Francisco 49ers, with backup quarterback P.J. Walker leading the team.
Watson’s absence in the previous few weeks has confused fans and pundits. Florio is reporting Browns players thought Watson would play against the Baltimore Ravens in Week 4 when he was medically cleared to play. Watson did not play in the 28-3 blowout loss to the Ravens.
Watson didn’t play the following week against the 49ers, and he played a handful of snaps before leaving the Colts game after suffering a brutal hit. Watson has already been ruled out for Week 8.
Ian Rapoport with the NFL Network said the nature of Watson’s injury, a rotator cuff strain, is a four-to-six-week injury. Rapoport doesn’t think Watson’s absence since the Ravens contest is out of bounds for that type of injury.
Would the Browns trade Deshaun Watson?
However, Florio isn’t so sure there isn’t another reason Watson isn’t suiting up Sunday. Florio pointed to examples of Watson playing injured Clemson and with the Houston Texans. Watson even rode a bus to play for the Texans because he couldn’t travel by plane with a rib injury.
Florio wrote Watson might want out of Clevland and thinks the Browns could shop Watson before the trade deadline:
“That said, it would be naive to not at least wonder whether Watson has fallen out of love with the Browns. He wanted out of Houston just a few months after signing a big-money extension. Also, the Browns were the first team Watson scratched from his list of four finalists in 2022, before the Browns offered a five-year, fully-guaranteed contract.
So, yes, there’s a weird vibe. Neither the team nor Watson have said or done anything to change the situation. And we’ll continue to monitor things and generally to sniff around about whether the honeymoon has devolved into a standoff that, frankly, leaves both sides with few good options, given that Watson is due to make $46 million in 2023, in 2024, and in 2025, with every penny of it fully guaranteed.
It’s almost enough to make us wonder whether a surprise trade could happen before next Tuesday. At this point, however, who would take on the balance of that contract?”
Woah…The Browns still haven’t paid off their trade to the Texans for Watson. They still owe Houston a 2024 first-round pick. With Watson’s recent play and injuries, what would another team be willing to give up in return for the former first-round pick?
More importantly, that guaranteed salary is another issue for a player who will come to a new franchise and fanbase with baggage for off-the-field and now-on-the-field reasons.
The Browns and Watson might not want each other now, but they’re stuck.
Sports news for 10/26/23L
This is complete trash.
There's not a single word in print from Florio. I'm guessing this yahoo pulled the words "trade" and "Watson" from some audio and decided to turn it into a full-blown piece of garbage.
Is this another one of those "fantasy football experts" that claims to be an NFL reporter?
"So...the HC who was here and couldn't make it work with Baker is STILL here and STILL can't tailor an offense to his next QB. Maybe he just needs more talent at QB? For his signature WIN he was locked in his basement at home as if he were running for President;"
I just don't understand the love affair still with Baker. He's just awful. There are no two ways about it. He was pretty good in 2020 and that was a fun season and I am grateful to him for it. But the NFL will humble you in a hurry if you plateau and that's exactly what Baker did. Your whole post is based off an illogical, emotional, unwarranted attachment to Baker so it's hard to really sift through the rest of it. I'll just say we disagree on Berry. I am OK with that. I think most people think like you on Berry. I don't mind being the outlier.
I just don't understand the love affair still with Baker. He's just awful. There are no two ways about it. He was pretty good in 2020 and that was a fun season and I am grateful to him for it. But the NFL will humble you in a hurry if you plateau and that's exactly what Baker did. Your whole post is based off an illogical, emotional, unwarranted attachment to Baker so it's hard to really sift through the rest of it. I'll just say we disagree on Berry. I am OK with that. I think most people think like you on Berry. I don't mind being the outlier.
I don't have a love affair with Baker...or any other player not in a Browns uniform. I do appreciate what the guy did here and how he took this trash organization to the playoffs and a playoff win...and one defensive breakdown away from playing in the AFC Championship game. Why would anyone want more of that?
I do have a problem with revisionist history and very-important facts being left out when talking about that history.
Tell me one thing in the following that is not the truth (sift through ):
So...the HC who was here and couldn't make it work with Baker is STILL here and STILL can't tailor an offense to his next QB. Maybe he just needs more talent at QB? For his signature WIN he was locked in his basement at home as if he were running for President;
Decades worth of losing and dropping the 'loser' mentality...that we've had for decades...had it's only few bright spots under that darned QB who took us to the playoffs and beat the Steelers in the playoffs.
Berry is responsible for:
The entire Watson debacle, wasted draft picks - including (3) 1st Rders - and 230 million flushed down the toilet;
Spending more $$$ than any other team in the league only to have losing seasons and more drama than an 8th grade dance team;
A 2022 team with me and Tab at DT and a QB carousel of his own making...another wasted season;
A 2023 team with Super Bowl aspirations now with PJ Walker as its backup QB...playing from the practice squad over the guy that Berry decided would be our only backup QB at the start of the season. Fortunately, the QB position isn't all that important (/purple) ;
An extended LT who regularly ranks lower than the total number of starting OTs in the league.
To say the offense was not catered to him is an empty statement.
I disagree. Ski wanted to take away what made Baker...Baker. The last Steeler game where Baker was left hanging was a coaching abomination.
We were a two tight end play action team. The offense was based upon Chubb and the limitations of Baker.
Designed left rollouts off play action were a staple. That was to get Baker in space so he could see the field with a single hot read and a checkdown.
Baker was playing at a top 10 level the back half of his last healthy year here. Because-of or in spite of KS...take your pick
Baker was a limited quarterback. That is why the trade for DW. Period.
Lots of teams win with limited QBs...every QB in the ACFN has limited QBs. How limited has DW been? Every other team in the AFCN manages to win games they should and even some that they shouldn't. Their offenses - with their own limitations - are smooth as a baby's butt compared to our sandpaper look-and-feel
What has Baker done since then besides getting traded?
What has DW done since being acquired? That's what matters. BTW...Baker is a Team Captain now and his GM recently held a podcast simply gushing over the guy. He's on a team re-building after the GOAT QB retired and are in absolute cap hell. Just another 'perfect' situation around him.
KS has proven to get the most out of the quarterbacks that have played for him. If you cannot see the changes in the offense. Rewatch closely.
Rewatch what? KS hasn't won squat with those QBs that he supposedly improves...except for the one that he couldn't work with. Now he has one that can't play...and no Chubb to fall back on.
I don't have a love affair with Baker...or any other player not in a Browns uniform.
That's just their go to BS line any time you point out that he was the best QB the Browns have had since the return of the team in 1999. That by no means is a claim he was or is some great QB. But we haven't seen a three year run of any QB since the return that has done better. Hell, most of them never made it that far to begin with. Of course when you point that out they make it sounds like you must be in love with the guy. That's what it looks like when nobody has the facts to dispute it. They to turn it into a "you issue".
I agree with some of what you said and disagree with others. Watson isn't entirely on Berry. That was an organizational decision.
Have you watched Baker play since 2020? If you have what makes you believe we would have had similar success to 2020. There is no evidence of this; there is evidence to the contrary. He will be a backup journeyman QB after this season.
And I'm not saying Berry is perfect. But he's not an issue, imo, either. He's given Stefanski enough to win with.
To some extent I agree with you. Signing watson is on "the brain trust" supposing you believe they qualify to be given that name. Yet on the other hand it seems you're making a statement that simply doesn't fit. Baker is by no means some great QB. He never has been. But all of these predictions the type of which you made..... "He will be a backup journeyman QB after this season", is the same consistent type of comments we've heard from the haters ever since he left Cleveland. Yet it has not come to pass.
As of now Baker is a middle of the pack QB.........
NFL QB Index, Week 6: Jalen Hurts soars to No. 1; Brock Purdy knocking on door of top five
Anyone trying to make him out as the best thing since sliced bread are no less wrong than you are by trying to make him look like one of the worse starting QB's in the NFL. As per usual reality lies somewhere in the middle between the two extremes.
Rewatch what? KS hasn't won squat with those QBs that he supposedly improves...except for the one that he couldn't work with. Now he has one that can't play...and no Chubb to fall back on.
You tried to point out first that the offense was not tailored to the quarterback. That is not accurate.
Then you ignored the defensive failures that existed last year. The offense did not fail. The defense did.
To add to your point. Brissett in his 11 starts had the Browns O rated in the top 10. Something he hadn't accomplished in his entire career. As you pointed out, it was the defense that was dragging the team down. But some like to use selective facts.
I'm glad you think guesswork and conjecture mean something. Let me tell you what it means. In this case it means it's sending the message you wish to support and believe. Nothing else.
pit...nice try but you are wrong, again!
I support the Browns and have done so since I was a kid with one goal...win a Super Bowl.
I focus my attention on information concerning the Browns regardless of the source and most of the time I post stories for information purposes only and without posting any personal opinion that might be related to the information within the a story.
So, those who attempt to label me by linking me to a story I post ... you could not be MORE WRONG..!
Keep in mind, the Browns media machine does operate under a self imposed standard...NO UNCOORDINATED LEAKS...
There were no facts in what you posted. It's was a pure opinion piece by someone with very little credentials. Just go take a look at who this guy is and who he works for. You got caught up in his click bait. Most of us won't make that same mistake.
You know I don't care if people want to attack DW. But at least get the facts right.
Florio and King did a tag team hit job on DW. Florio tried to plant the idea that DW does not want to play in Cleveland. His reasoning was because he didn't want to play for the Texans. Entirely two different cases. He didn't bring up what went down with the Texans. He said he did it once therefore he will do it again. A case of fact bending to get a wanted outcome.
King "DW has not played a single game where he looked competent."
Really? How about the last game he played where he was 27-33 for 289 with two TD's.
At least do your homework boys.
I don't know how DW will play. I am not a fortune teller.
However, I am patient enough to wait and see what he can do when he plays 5 or more games healthy.
The implications that DW is soft. That he is not hurt and doesn't want to play. That is simple people who want to see him fail.
Speaking of trades. I would love it if the Browns could somehow trade for Jacoby Brissett, and Cordarrelle Patterson while only giving up a 5th and 7th round picks. Help at QB, kick returner, and RB. Do any of you have any idea what Pattersons contract looks like?
There were no facts in what you posted. It's was a pure opinion piece by someone with very little credentials. Just go take a look at who this guy is and who he works for. You got caught up in his click bait. Most of us won't make that same mistake.
Pit..went right over your head...swoooosh..!
Pitt, quote the part of this story you are attributing to me...here is the link...https://gridironheroics.com/deshaun-watson-trade-rumor-cleveland-browns/
When someone keeps posting things that back up what they themselves have espoused it makes it obvious. You're not fooling anyone here. Speaking of swooosh.....
A decent part of me wouldn't have been opposed to DTR given a full practice week as the #1 QB and start against Seattle. He was thrown into a bad scenario against the Ravens, in the sense that he went against a really good defense and he received no legitimate prep time. I doubt I am the only one who thought about this considering what we've seen from Walker.
But we're 2-0 with Walker and hopefully the offensive staff has continued to hone in on what is most successful from an offensive gameplan with Walker.
jmo...I like Jacoby, and wouldn't mind if we do get him, but I think he has somewhat of a cult following.
I think part of the reason why the FO may not bring in Jacoby is that they don't want a cult led QB controversy to brew.
I think so too ... it's easier for them to play Walker 1-2 more weeks and hope Watson can return fairly healthy
I agree.
If Watson can't come back or ends up a dud for whatever reason, Brissett, or Dobbs, or Walker aren't the answer to anything just like Hoyer and countless others weren't the answer. Limping in to the playoffs isn't what I want. I'll take it but I want to win in the playoffs.
I will note it isn't over for Walker. He has played pretty well, but I don't have high hopes for his ceiling. Let's see how he plays today. The more he settles in to the starting role can't be a bad thing, be it is gets better or shows the team that he isn't the guy.
I know some make a deal that Walker played I the WFL or whatever it is, but we and other teams have had many players who ended up good player who took a non-traditional route to the NFL.
I think both Minninifield and Mack came out of the USFL. We have had several come out of Canadian football. Around the league several notables have had non-traditional starts to NFL success, Theisman, Warner, Flutie to name a few QB's.
It's not like the NFL has a codlock on being 100% correct with their player evaluations.
I guess if you call a QBR of 23.5 and a completion rate of 50% while throwing 3 int's and 0 td's as "pretty well" we have a very different definition of what "pretty well" means.
When someone keeps posting things that back up what they themselves have espoused it makes it obvious. You're not fooling anyone here. Speaking of swooosh.....
pit..so back it up..show everyone all those posts I have made about concerning trading Watson..?
Back it up Pit..show those "things" that I posted to backup your claim..
OR, just admit that you have been reduced to someone who makes BS up in an attempt to backup your claims.
With Cousins going down for the season, any decent backup will be pursued heavily by Minnesota probably already starting this evening. If Brissett is the best available, the price just went way up while Berry was taking a wait as see stand. Brissett was immediately mentioned when Cousins went down. Also, not sure about the Tyrod Taylor injury but he's being held in the hospital overnight so the Giants could be down their #1 and #2 and reaching out for Brissett or another top backup out there. Sure hope this doesn't turn out to be a "snooze and you lose" case for the Browns.
Rivera has final say on player personnel. Unless he gets overridden by the owner, why would he do that for a late round pick?
Who said it has to be a late round pick?
Sure I hate to give up a 3rd or 4th for him. But at this point what have we got to lose? We've already trashed the future for Watson anyway. Don't let this season go down the drain waiting for Watson, it looks like it's going to be awhile. Get Brisset back here.
News: 1 hour ago Walker completed 15 of 31 passes for 248 yards, one touchdown and two interceptions in Sunday's loss to Seattle. He added six rushes for 27 yards and also lost a fumble.
Spin: Walker dug the Browns an early hole after he fumbled midway through the first quarter to set up Seattle's second touchdown of the day. He also threw an interception just before the two-minute warning in the final quarter as Cleveland was trying to run out the clock with the lead. In between those miscues, he showed some promise by averaging eight yards per attempt while connecting with both Amari Cooper and David Njoku regularly to pick up chunk yardage. Walker is likely to remain the starter so long as Deshaun Watson (shoulder), who currently has an unclear timeline to return, is sidelined.
If Brissett is the best available, the price just went way up while Berry was taking a wait as see stand.
Whether there was injury to other starters on other teams - the way we just lost to Seattle, the price just went up regardless. Oh well.
I agree and would add it was already pretty high.
I think the Browns are looking at it the right way. In most cases, back-up QBs rarely save a season. At best you hope to get .500 ball out them, and that isn't even for a seasons worth of games. The reality is if a team loses their QB for an extended period, they are pretty much screwed. It's been that way for the 65 or so years I have been following the team and NFL. It's going to be that way moving in to the future another 60 years.
At this point we have been a patchwork at QB for 4 games now. The question we face is how much more time will Watson be out? I don't want to trade a higher pick to pick up a guy who might play just 1-2 games. If Watson is out longer, the new guy is still going to play .500 ball over the remainder of the season...at best. We are trending on that .500 mark with the guys we have.
If Watson is out for a good while longer, it might be time to admit the reality and go back to DTR because he has a higher ceiling. If Watson never regains form, we are going to have to play somebody next year and then draft a QB the following draft. DTR gives us the best chance over the next several seasons if it come to that.
I agree Peen We can get through the Arizona game, but then after that the alarm bells will be ringing: at Baltimore, Pittsburgh, at Denver, at LA Rams, Jacksonville
That's the biggest stretch of the year ... we can't have Walker back there
If Watson is out for a good while longer, it might be time to admit the reality and go back to DTR because he has a higher ceiling. If Watson never regains form, we are going to have to play somebody next year and then draft a QB the following draft. DTR gives us the best chance over the next several seasons if it come to that.
Bingo, 'peen. DTR is the future and we (should) know what Walker's ceiling is. This PJ thing simply has to end....
A decent part of me wouldn't have been opposed to DTR given a full practice week as the #1 QB and start against Seattle. He was thrown into a bad scenario against the Ravens, in the sense that he went against a really good defense and he received no legitimate prep time. I doubt I am the only one who thought about this considering what we've seen from Walker.
But we're 2-0 with Walker and hopefully the offensive staff has continued to hone in on what is most successful from an offensive gameplan with Walker.
You've railed against this FO for a long time. Everyone knows it and the article you posted only backs that up.
But yeah, you're right. Whatever you say. People can't read and haven't seen what you've been posting for a long time and how this simply reinforces it.
If Watson is out for a good while longer, it might be time to admit the reality and go back to DTR because he has a higher ceiling. If Watson never regains form, we are going to have to play somebody next year and then draft a QB the following draft. DTR gives us the best chance over the next several seasons if it come to that.
Bingo, 'peen. DTR is the future and we (should) know what Walker's ceiling is. This PJ thing simply has to end....
So some are claiming that a 5th round project is the future? Come on man. Do you know how low the odds are of that becoming true?
If Watson is out for a good while longer, it might be time to admit the reality and go back to DTR because he has a higher ceiling. If Watson never regains form, we are going to have to play somebody next year and then draft a QB the following draft. DTR gives us the best chance over the next several seasons if it come to that.
Bingo, 'peen. DTR is the future and we (should) know what Walker's ceiling is. This PJ thing simply has to end....
I disagree. If we are, in fact, a contending team then we should have a competent backup for this exact situation. Walker ain't it, and the fact he's starting over DTR means he ain't it either. DTR is a guy that needs a little time to develop, and playing him to "see what we've got" is what teams do that already know they aren't playing in the postseason.
Rivera has final say on player personnel. Unless he gets overridden by the owner, why would he do that for a late round pick?
Who said it has to be a late round pick?
Sure I hate to give up a 3rd or 4th for him. But at this point what have we got to lose? We've already trashed the future for Watson anyway. Don't let this season go down the drain waiting for Watson, it looks like it's going to be awhile. Get Brisset back here.
Because trading anything earlier isn't logical at all, it's desperation.
Quote
But at this point what have we got to lose? We've already trashed the future for Watson anyway.
This is sound thinking
We are trashing the future when we make decisions like giving a 2nd to 4th (i would even add a 5th to this equation) for a backup QB who "might" play 4 games at the most for us. "We" as fans have nothing to lose b/c fans are thinking of only this year. It's the FO/staff job to focus on this year AND the future. It's their job to do so, if not then they won't have that job anymore.
To add on, that 3rd or 4th round pick is valuable to a team like ours b/c of contracts. Those picks can help trade up or trade down, those help with trades that wouldn't normally happen. Example: we traded a 5th and 6th for Cooper. Thats a piece of the flexibility needed to sustain long term success. I understand some/most being upset about trading Dobbs. It's a sound reason. However, trading him for a 5th is sound too. Especially when the Cards weren't going to have Kyler Murray for a big part of the season.
IMO the quarterback situation is a mistake. KS has input however, the roster is Berry's responsibility.
He made a mistake and it is costing the team. They committed to DTR. Then pulled the plug after one start that was in reality an expected loss.
Late round rookies making their first start against a division opponent. They are not going to be successful.
Then there was a scramble to get PJ ready. He is not a viable backup. Currently the lowest rated quarterback in the NFL with nine turnovers in three games.
That is not acceptable. There were and are better options than PJ Walker.
This was a mistake there is no way to sugar coat it.
I like Berry and think overall he has done a decent job. He has made mistakes and this is one of those mistakes.
The odds of third and fourth round picks making it in the NFL are not favorable. But I do understand your point about not wishing to trade future picks. I believe one has to consider the circumstances at the time as part of that equation. But when it comes to top picks that have favorable odd of success in the NFL, that ship has sailed. What I think happens is some put their thoughts on that in a one size fits all box. This season the Browns are paying out the highest salaries in the league. That is not a sustainable option. There is a very narrow window of opportunity which that can be sustained. The talent on this roster which has been culminated is rare. Especially with the Browns. The time to strike is very limited.
So at this juncture there is a bigger picture at play here. Do the Browns simply throw in the towel while paying all of this talent such high salaries? Do they purposefully waste a season where simply competent QB play could get them to the playoffs? I would understand not trying to upgrade the QB position if it were gong to cost a fortune. But that's not the case here. A playoff caliber team has been assembled and throwing it all away because they refuse to give up a 3rd or 4th round pick doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Like I said earlier, to me the circumstances matter.
Rivera has final say on player personnel. Unless he gets overridden by the owner, why would he do that for a late round pick?
Who said it has to be a late round pick?
Sure I hate to give up a 3rd or 4th for him. But at this point what have we got to lose? We've already trashed the future for Watson anyway. Don't let this season go down the drain waiting for Watson, it looks like it's going to be awhile. Get Brisset back here.
Because trading anything earlier isn't logical at all, it's desperation.
Quote
But at this point what have we got to lose? We've already trashed the future for Watson anyway.
This is sound thinking
We are trashing the future when we make decisions like giving a 2nd to 4th (i would even add a 5th to this equation) for a backup QB who "might" play 4 games at the most for us. "We" as fans have nothing to lose b/c fans are thinking of only this year. It's the FO/staff job to focus on this year AND the future. It's their job to do so, if not then they won't have that job anymore.
Along these lines (and I said this once or twice before) the lack of any movement today or tomorrow will say a lot about what the FO thinks about this roster. I don't think you're wrong when you say we'd be trashing the future over (essentially) ~4 games... however, I don't think you're doing the math right, because the math is different for a team that's in their window. ~4 games is nothing to a team that doesn't think their time is now, but that's not the case when you've got 1 whole side of the ball playing at an extremely high level and essentially being held back by 1 position.
What you said makes perfect sense only as long as you do NOT think you're a contender. If you do, 4 games is HUGE.
A decent part of me wouldn't have been opposed to DTR given a full practice week as the #1 QB and start against Seattle. He was thrown into a bad scenario against the Ravens, in the sense that he went against a really good defense and he received no legitimate prep time. I doubt I am the only one who thought about this considering what we've seen from Walker.
But we're 2-0 with Walker and hopefully the offensive staff has continued to hone in on what is most successful from an offensive gameplan with Walker.
Expected points can also be negative. This indicates that a team is more likely to turn the ball over to its opponent with favorable field position than to score themselves.
Just a question. Does anyone know if there's a way we can get out of DW's contract if, hypothetically, he doesn't want to play here anymore. I'm not saying that's the case he said he wants to play and he seems sincere but I was just playing devils advocate.
A decent part of me wouldn't have been opposed to DTR given a full practice week as the #1 QB and start against Seattle. He was thrown into a bad scenario against the Ravens, in the sense that he went against a really good defense and he received no legitimate prep time. I doubt I am the only one who thought about this considering what we've seen from Walker.
But we're 2-0 with Walker and hopefully the offensive staff has continued to hone in on what is most successful from an offensive gameplan with Walker.
Rivera has final say on player personnel. Unless he gets overridden by the owner, why would he do that for a late round pick?
Who said it has to be a late round pick?
Sure I hate to give up a 3rd or 4th for him. But at this point what have we got to lose? We've already trashed the future for Watson anyway. Don't let this season go down the drain waiting for Watson, it looks like it's going to be awhile. Get Brisset back here.
Because trading anything earlier isn't logical at all, it's desperation.
Quote
But at this point what have we got to lose? We've already trashed the future for Watson anyway.
This is sound thinking
We are trashing the future when we make decisions like giving a 2nd to 4th (i would even add a 5th to this equation) for a backup QB who "might" play 4 games at the most for us. "We" as fans have nothing to lose b/c fans are thinking of only this year. It's the FO/staff job to focus on this year AND the future. It's their job to do so, if not then they won't have that job anymore.
Along these lines (and I said this once or twice before) the lack of any movement today or tomorrow will say a lot about what the FO thinks about this roster. I don't think you're wrong when you say we'd be trashing the future over (essentially) ~4 games... however, I don't think you're doing the math right, because the math is different for a team that's in their window. ~4 games is nothing to a team that doesn't think their time is now, but that's not the case when you've got 1 whole side of the ball playing at an extremely high level and essentially being held back by 1 position.
What you said makes perfect sense only as long as you do NOT think you're a contender. If you do, 4 games is HUGE.
I understand what you are saying. I can’t say I disagree with your reply. I really don’t have much of a rebuttal to what you wrote. I just don’t think Brissett is worth trading a day 1 or day 2 pick to get him. A later round pick(s) sure. However, if you are Washington, as I said before, why would you do that trade? They have a young QB starting who is taking a beating and they need him too.
Mary Kay Cabot @MaryKayCabot · 4m Updated: Will Sunday's game between #Browns & #Cardinals be a battle of 2 5th-round rookie QBs? Could happen. J. Gannon might opt for Clayton Tune & Kevin Stefanski could turn back to Dorian Thompson-Robinson if Deshaun Watson isn't ready
Just a question. Does anyone know if there's a way we can get out of DW's contract if, hypothetically, he doesn't want to play here anymore. I'm not saying that's the case he said he wants to play and he seems sincere but I was just playing devils advocate.
0 chance.
we are married to him for years. We would have to play with scabs for 3 years to absorb his salary cap hit (even if he retired).
Agreed SD, We’re pretty much done as a franchise for the next 5 years if DW doesn’t pan out. And while I have zero clue how much his arm hurts, from what I’ve seen, he isn’t going to pan out. I think that he knows that his money is guaranteed, and he’s not going to risk a major injury by getting hurt and not being able to enjoy his cash. I hope that I’m wrong but I thinks that this goes down as the worst trade in Sports history- not just NFL history, but all of sports.
And people were mad we traded Dobbs for a 5th and/or know we would have a better record with him as the backup.
So because he isn't the starter for another team means he is worse than our practive squad QB who has a 22.8 QBR ?? Dobbs isn't great but his QBR is 46
I for one don't think it'd be a stretch to think we could have a better record with Dobbs ... Dobbs has 5 interceptions in 8 games. Walker has that many in 3 games. Easy to see how we win v Pit and Seattle without the 22.8 QB play.
If Watson is out for a good while longer, it might be time to admit the reality and go back to DTR because he has a higher ceiling. If Watson never regains form, we are going to have to play somebody next year and then draft a QB the following draft. DTR gives us the best chance over the next several seasons if it come to that.
Bingo, 'peen. DTR is the future and we (should) know what Walker's ceiling is. This PJ thing simply has to end....
So some are claiming that a 5th round project is the future? Come on man. Do you know how low the odds are of that becoming true?
No, I am not saying that. The future if Watson ends up a dud is drafting a qb when we get a 1st round pick in 2024. I don't think anybody is claiming that DTR is the future, as in long term future.
Maybe we draft a QB in round 2 this coming draft if the right guy is there, though I would rather wait another year to see where Watson sits and we also have a full bag of draft picks.
The ideal in all of this is Watson is back in a few games, plays at a high level and we don't have to talk about this.
And people were mad we traded Dobbs for a 5th and/or know we would have a better record with him as the backup.
So because he isn't the starter for another team means he is worse than our practive squad QB who has a 22.8 QBR ?? Dobbs isn't great but his QBR is 46
I for one don't think it'd be a stretch to think we could have a better record with Dobbs ... Dobbs has 5 interceptions in 8 games. Walker has that many in 3 games. Easy to see how we win v Pit and Seattle without the 22.8 QB play.
How is it 'easy' to see we would have won against PIT and SEA w/ Dobbs? Firstly, Watson was playing in the PIT game and not any of our backups. Unless you believe Dobbs would have played better than Watson, that isn't a direct comp to our backups.
If Dobbs played, would it have meant Moody would have also missed the PAT to win us the game against SF? If Dobbs played, would it have meant that IND would have also been called on two defensive penalties to win us the game? Or would our defense still have had those massive TOs, one for a TD? If Dobbs played, would we have won against BAL? If Dobbs played, would Wills not whiff on Watt to create a strip sack/TD versus PIT? If Dobbs played, would we have come back down 14 points and outscored them 24-3 until late in the game versus SEA?
It's weird people want to live in this fantasy where they can try to create a real world scenario (and expect everyone else to buy it) where it is a legit argument to present the idea that EVERYTHING in the previous game would have went the EXACT same way with ( insert X player) and the outcome would be different.....an outcome ultimately resulting in our favor. This isn't some Marvel multiverse or something.
Both are not playing well and are a liability for both teams. If you want to play the who is shiniest turd game, go for it. but the margin is slim and there is nothing to say it would have changed this team's record to anything above 4-3. Again, I think one of the dumbest things fans do is create these 'If then' statements in their head where If Dobbs would have been here, then we probably would have won! There is absolutely no basis for saying this and is usually layered with some underlying agenda for something else related to the team, whether it be a player, coach, or FO person.
The bottom line is any time a team is playing with a backup QB or the third stringer, you are in a pretty crappy position. Luckily for the Browns, the proverbial ball bounced in our favor in SF and IND. You run simulations is this multiverse some wish to create, you won't get the same result. There is nothing to go from that if Dobbs was playing (based on his performance) that this team's record would be better than 4-3 with him as the starter. Especially since he is 1-7 as one for Arizona.
And people were mad we traded Dobbs for a 5th and/or know we would have a better record with him as the backup.
So because he isn't the starter for another team means he is worse than our practive squad QB who has a 22.8 QBR ?? Dobbs isn't great but his QBR is 46
I for one don't think it'd be a stretch to think we could have a better record with Dobbs ... Dobbs has 5 interceptions in 8 games. Walker has that many in 3 games. Easy to see how we win v Pit and Seattle without the 22.8 QB play.
How is it 'easy' to see we would have won against PIT and SEA w/ Dobbs? Firstly, Watson was playing in the PIT game and not any of our backups. Unless you believe Dobbs would have played better than Watson, that isn't a direct comp to our backups.
If Dobbs played, would it have meant Moody would have also missed the PAT to win us the game against SF? If Dobbs played, would it have meant that IND would have also been called on two defensive penalties to win us the game? Or would our defense still have had those massive TOs, one for a TD? If Dobbs played, would we have won against BAL? If Dobbs played, would Wills not whiff on Watt to create a strip sack/TD versus PIT? If Dobbs played, would we have come back down 14 points and outscored them 24-3 17-3 until late in the game versus SEA?
It's weird people want to live in this fantasy where they can try to create a real world scenario (and expect everyone else to buy it) where it is a legit argument to present the idea that EVERYTHING in the previous game would have went the EXACT same way with ( insert X player) and the outcome would be different.....an outcome ultimately resulting in our favor. This isn't some Marvel multiverse or something.
Both are not playing well and are a liability for both teams. If you want to play the who is shiniest turd game, go for it. but the margin is slim and there is nothing to say it would have changed this team's record to anything above 4-3. Again, I think one of the dumbest things fans do is create these 'If then' statements in their head where If Dobbs would have been here, then we probably would have won! There is absolutely no basis for saying this and is usually layered with some underlying agenda for something else related to the team, whether it be a player, coach, or FO person.
The bottom line is any time a team is playing with a backup QB or the third stringer, you are in a pretty crappy position. Luckily for the Browns, the proverbial ball bounced in our favor in SF and IND. You run simulations is this multiverse some wish to create, you won't get the same result. There is nothing to go from that if Dobbs was playing (based on his performance) that this team's record would be better than 4-3 with him as the starter. Especially since he is 1-7 as one for Arizona.
I made a mistake on the Pitsburgh game because DW started and no matter how he played Dobbs wouldn't have started.
With that said - and sticking to the SEA game. I think it's tremendously reasonable to suggest that we win if Dobbs is here and playing. He's better than PJ Walker as a QB and any game and stat you look at from 2023 backs that up. Better QB play in a close game means we'd have every reason to think the result wouyld be different. Better players playing for your team usually produce better results.
Feel free to disagree with me, I have no problem with that. But I do disagree strongly with your insistance or suggesting that we can't or shouldn't discuss the 'what if' because Berry decided to role into the season with DTR, a chronically unproven 5th round rookie QB as a back up and then had to call up the practice squad QB as a redult of how bad DTR was..... This is a Browns discussion board - all we have is opinions and observations (and memes I guess).
I made a mistake on the Pitsburgh game because DW started and no matter how he played Dobbs wouldn't have started.
With that said - and sticking to the SEA game. I think it's tremendously reasonable to suggest that we win if Dobbs is here and playing. He's better than PJ Walker as a QB and any game and stat you look at from 2023 backs that up. Better QB play in a close game means we'd have every reason to think the result wouyld be different. Better players playing for your team usually produce better results.
Feel free to disagree with me, I have no problem with that. But I do disagree strongly with your insistance or suggesting that we can't or shouldn't discuss the 'what if' because Berry decided to role into the season with DTR, a chronically unproven 5th round rookie QB as a back up and then had to call up the practice squad QB as a redult of how bad DTR was..... This is a Browns discussion board - all we have is opinions and observations (and memes I guess).
Thats totally fair.
I think everybody involved totally misread how good DTR was, or at minimum his readiness to play in that game.
But, at the time he was the only one ready. As a PS player Walker didn't get many reps except playing the scout team role. The only reason DTR made the team was because we probably wouldn't have cleared him through waivers.
A later round pick(s) sure. However, if you are Washington, as I said before, why would you do that trade? They have a young QB starting who is taking a beating and they need him too.
Yeah, I don't see Berry paying the price needed to get Jacoby, but I'm still going to hope.
I don't think we need another RB. What we have is fine. Piere Strong looked pretty good Sunday too. If we can get someone decent for not much then fine but that's it. JMO
He was freed once already. Then he committed the offense of sucking. He was sentenced to the sideline once again. I expect the same result if that mistake is repeated. I'm seeing a very good possibility of his recidivism rate being 100%. Throwing that kid to the wolves is a dumb idea and that's already been proven to be the case.
It's odd to see someone who claims this coaching staff keeps making the same mistakes advocate the make they same mistake by putting DTR back on the field. But you'll have that from time to time.
And people were mad we traded Dobbs for a 5th and/or know we would have a better record with him as the backup.
So because he isn't the starter for another team means he is worse than our practive squad QB who has a 22.8 QBR ?? Dobbs isn't great but his QBR is 46
I for one don't think it'd be a stretch to think we could have a better record with Dobbs ... Dobbs has 5 interceptions in 8 games. Walker has that many in 3 games. Easy to see how we win v Pit and Seattle without the 22.8 QB play.
Yeah his post was hilarious. Dobbs completion percentage is 62.8%. He has 8td's and 5 int's. Nobody has suggested that having Dobbs as the backup would be the prefect scenario. What has been said, and is true, is that with a decent back-up that could simply help put a few more points on the board the Browns could win more games with this defense. Sometimes people go with their gut reaction rather than to actually look into things. Dobbs would be an obvious upgrade to P.J. Walker.
With the info we have to go on now, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say the DTR game was an aberration due to him having so little time/heads-up to prepare to go vs the Ravens. I'd imagine a little more time to throw to our WRs and put in an actual gameplan vs winging it would yield better results.
Going and getting someone like Dobbs isn't a bad idea either. I'm definitely on the "anyone but Walker" train. I didn't realize it was possible to earn a negative value for EPA since that means exactly what it sounds like.
Agreed SD, We’re pretty much done as a franchise for the next 5 years if DW doesn’t pan out. And while I have zero clue how much his arm hurts, from what I’ve seen, he isn’t going to pan out. I think that he knows that his money is guaranteed, and he’s not going to risk a major injury by getting hurt and not being able to enjoy his cash. I hope that I’m wrong but I thinks that this goes down as the worst trade in Sports history- not just NFL history, but all of sports.
I felt this way ever since we made the trade. The whole thing sucked from the jump. I don’t think there are shortcuts to superbowls, and this is what we tried.
If the Browns want to save this season than they need to go out and sign either Ryan or Wentz and give themselves a chance to win enough games to make the playoffs. Ryan and Wentz might not be what they were but both have shown that they can play at a high level and help a team win, where as guys like Walker and Dobbs are just guys who you hope don't lose you the game. I've seen some discussion about Brissett but in reality he is just a better version of Walker and Dobbs. Add in the fact that this years offense is a lot different than what we ran last year and Brissett is a dink and dunk passer who needs a good running game to set up his passing which we don't have with Chubb out.
I agree with your assessment Dawg. We have too much talent to let this season waste away. If we sign Wentz or Ryan at least we're trying to save the season. Who knows, we may need one of those guys next year too!!!
Tampa Bay did it with Brady and the Rams did it with Stafford. First year with new teams Super Bowl wins!!! The Broncos did it with Peyton Manning to!!
Are the Browns going to a wishbone or veer formation now? This is hilarious. You have the least productive WR room in the league Yet you sign a RB to position that is Top 5 in the AFC As a whole. Hunt Strong Ford now Drake. Who's carries get affected the most out of those 3.
We are the second best rushing team in the NFL even without Chubb at 148.6 yards per game.
Dobbs is better than Walker. Quite a bit better actually. I've already posted the difference. Brissett had the Browns offense in the top 10 last year when he was QB. Reality is often times much different than perception.
Hypothetically, if we could get Patick Mahomes today don't you think we could go to the Super Bowl this year with the talent we have? I do especially if we had Nick!!
Hypothetically, if we could get Patick Mahomes today don't you think we could go to the Super Bowl this year with the talent we have? I do especially if we had Nick!!
I don't know, he sucked in his last game. And you just know Stefanski would find a way to screw it up. Am I right?
Are the Browns going to a wishbone or veer formation now? This is hilarious. You have the least productive WR room in the league Yet you sign a RB to position that is Top 5 in the AFC As a whole. Hunt Strong Ford now Drake. Who's carries get affected the most out of those 3.
Yeah, if true, I don't understand the Drake signing at all.
And I don't understand why Strong isn't getting more touches as he produces every time he touches the ball. So bring in a veteran to take more touches away from him?
With the info we have to go on now, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say the DTR game was an aberration due to him having so little time/heads-up to prepare to go vs the Ravens. I'd imagine a little more time to throw to our WRs and put in an actual gameplan vs winging it would yield better results.
Going and getting someone like Dobbs isn't a bad idea either. I'm definitely on the "anyone but Walker" train. I didn't realize it was possible to earn a negative value for EPA since that means exactly what it sounds like.
If the Browns do grab a vet QB today, I think it is also a pretty bad sign to where they think Watson is in his healing process, obviously.
LOL, you're probably right about KS Pit. His last game was just an aberration. It happens to the best of them. Of course, we never experience that here in Cleveland, at least not at the QB position LOL!!!!
We are the second best rushing team in the NFL even without Chubb at 148.6 yards per game.
Dobbs is better than Walker. Quite a bit better actually. I've already posted the difference. Brissett had the Browns offense in the top 10 last year when he was QB. Reality is often times much different than perception.
Don't know where you got your numbers but since the Pittsburgh game we are averaging 127.2 yards a game, on 32.6 carries a game with a 3.9 yards per carry average.
Tennessee 31 carries for 78 yards Baltimore 25 for 93 San Fran 34 for 160 (28 of which was by the WRs) Indy 33 for 150 (69 of which came on 1 play) Seattle 40 for 155
Brissett did a good job last year but this years offense isn't the same, so whose to say he would do as good a job.
This years offense as you call it was designed for Watson. It has been altered to fit the current backups. All that is going on here is we're seeing a more limited version of the playbook being used to fit the QB's who are playing. The play book is the same. All that is done any time a different QB is starting is that you design the calls you use from that playbook. The exact same thing would be done if Brissett was the starter.
Actually they in turn dropped 2 RB's from the practice squad when they made that move. I'm sometimes disappointed in what this FO does or doesn't do, but it's also part of their job to upgrade the roster anywhere they can. Even at the bottom end of it.
No trade for a QB apparently now that the deadline has passed.
Dawgtalkers and Browns' Twitter to erupt in 3.....2.....1.....
....well, I'm mystified as opposed to angry. My feeling is that we came away with a net loss as opposed to adding value. Let DTR start the balance of games until DW returns. I've seen more than enough of Walker....
Yet some teams made great trades, and they are all the usual suspects, SF, KC, Philly, etc. And Minnesota got Dobbs for a song. Jacksonville got a very good guard, not that we needed one. Seems like we should’ve done more than just give away DPJ.
well this day turned out disappointing, if I don't say so myself
1. We add RB Kenyon Drake to room that doesn't need help right now, especially when KS won't ever utilize them in important situations in the 4th qtr and on 3rd and short 2. We give DPJ away, even though to me he made some tough tough catches for us. No clue why KS didn't use him this year. See this: DPJ Highlights 3. We didn't get a veteran QB, so either that means trade prices are high (likely), or DW is close to coming back. I suppose we could roll with walker for 1 more game, if we can't beat the sorry Cards at home then we don't deserve playoffs. with that said, what's our contingency for when DW takes a big hit and gets hurt again? IMO this season went down with Chubb, and playoffs were always going to be a stretch
A running back? And it's not even Henry? Then you gave away DPJ? You've got to be kidding me with this amateur hour. Fire Andrew Berry. Enough talk, I'm tired of seeing PJ Walker (a QB that doesn't belong in the NFL).
I also don't want to see Watson either unless he's playing at a pro bowl level.
Kenyan Drake was a practice squad transaction (with a few other players/positions). Berry adds/drops PS players weekly. This isn't a deadline specific move.
I know many are not as high on DPJ as I am, but he was our 3rd WR (or 4th if you count Njoku). Now our current QB situation isn't great for maximizing our WR talent, but this is going to go down as a loss.
Don't get me started on the whole "we got rid of a guy so the guy that was supposed to take his job but can't earn his way on the field on Sundays can now get unearned reps.
Dumping vets to get draft picks playing time and not filling a gaping hole on the roster that's costing you wins are the moves teams make that don't believe they can win now.
There are a lot of things the Browns are doing that are costing them wins, starting with a mediocre head coach. While I also like DPJ, trading him will be far down the list for reasons this team doesn't make the playoffs. Which it isn't going to anyway. Our only hope was a dominant defense that could overcome Sterfanski and that ship appears to have sailed. Trust me, the DPJ trade won't even register by the end of the year.
I know, I'm a little bummed. I like DPJ, how he came in raw and grinded and developed. We got our money's worth out of that pick for sure.
I think the approach we took to the trade deadline shows what we think about this roster/season. That's really frustrating. I think we'll see the D really start mailing it in with the lack of urgency shown, especially if the dead-last ranked QB play continues.
You and I don't completely agree on KS, but I do understand your argument.
well this day turned out disappointing, if I don't say so myself
1. We add RB Kenyon Drake to room that doesn't need help right now, especially when KS won't ever utilize them in important situations in the 4th qtr and on 3rd and short 2. We give DPJ away, even though to me he made some tough tough catches for us. No clue why KS didn't use him this year. See this: DPJ Highlights 3. We didn't get a veteran QB, so either that means trade prices are high (likely), or DW is close to coming back. I suppose we could roll with walker for 1 more game, if we can't beat the sorry Cards at home then we don't deserve playoffs. with that said, what's our contingency for when DW takes a big hit and gets hurt again? IMO this season went down with Chubb, and playoffs were always going to be a stretch
Just to add a point, Watson was injured on Sept. 24th. If he plays this week (doubtful), that would mean he's been away from live play for 42 days outside of the few disastrous plays he attempted in the Colts game. Add to that fact, Watson has participated in next to zero practices up to this time as we speak. The chances of this guy reaching top 5 elite play when he returns is the biggest joke on the web. Let's be frank, he wasn't exactly burning it up when he was playing healthy.
What's the bar set at to be a Top 5 Elite QB based on current QBR rankings:
If and when Watson does return, I fully expect a minimum of 3-5 weeks of the "he's rusty" excuse train and that's just to get back to the level he was playing prior to the injury that's noted above. It took Burrow CIN 5 weeks to get back to elite form from his injury and he was playing every week. I fully expect Watson to take much longer.
This is the main reason Berry has failed the franchise when he didn't address the Watson injury by seeking out a Watson replacement. Watson just being on the field is not going to give the ROI that everyone was promised when they traded for Watson.
Which is it? You miss time and are rusty or, rusty is an excuse?
Berry did make a mistake. However, it was not when DW was injured. When DW was injured it was too late.
It was before camp when the backups were Dobbs and DTR. Neither player is a quality backup.
A quality backup quarterback is a veteran who has started and seen NFL defenses. Guys like Mariota, Winston, Darnold, Wentz.
Players who can step in and give you a chance for a few weeks.
This is on Berry. Overall Berry has done a decent job. He has made mistakes including last year when the DT was a disaster.
Good GM's are not perfect. There are GM's in the HOF who made horrible mistakes. Bobby Beathard is in the HOF. He also is the GM who drafted Ryan Leaf.
How good do you think a QB needs to be in order to be considered a good back-up QB?
Josh Dobbs 2023
62.8% completions. 8td's and 5int's.
You have to consider names that you can sign. You said it yourself that you have to have a trade partner. Then you list QB's teams probably weren't looking to trade.
I understand you think this should have been settled before the season began and I agree with you. I think it was dumb to ship Dobbs off for a ham sandwich and a six pack. Especially since he's performed so much better than any backup we have on the roster. But that's not where we were with the upcoming trade deadline looming.
The thing about it is that I'm not disappointed at all. For me to be disappointed I would have had to of expected a better outcome and been let down. This is how I expected things to turn out.
I was not at practice but that was the decision. Dobbs has not been able to stay on a roster. Was he a better option than DTR? Yes. Would he have done better than what we have done? I don't know.
This season as we all knew is dependent upon DW playing well. Backups for most teams are not players who will win with any consistency.
If we have to depend upon PJ and DTR to win. We are in deep trouble. I don't like crying about losing Nick. We have done adequately without him. However, he could have made a difference with a decent backup.
Myself, I have not given up on DW. I have to see him play healthy for a number of games in a row. Hell I can't tell you about our receivers till I see him play.
Really hard to judge an offense when the quarterback play is the worst in football.
I've never said that I have given up on watson the player. I'm saying with marginally better backup QB play the Browns can win more games. Especially the close ones. The name of the game is to win. You just said it yourself. The Browns "quarterback play is the worst in football". DTR nor P.J. will have the stat lines that Dobbs does. Say what you will about Dobbs not being able to stay on a roster because with that said he's outshining anything the Browns have in the backup role. Minnesota had no problems trading for him when their starter went down. Of course some people think they know more than the Vikings coaching staff I suppose.
The deal with Dobbs is we planned to trade him as soon as we signed him back IMO.
That said, I think DTR is better. I don't think we can look at the Ravens game and draw anything close to a conclusion. Rookie, first game as a starter, made the starter on maybe Friday if not a game time decision. There was nothing about that recipe that would make one think the finished result was going to be good.
The only thing anyone has to base that DTR is better is him playing against NFL players of which many didn't even make an NFL roster during preseason and his time at UCLA. He was a fifth round pick and there's no actual evidence based on anything of substance that would indicate he's any better than P.J. There's also nothing that now should make anyone think the finished result of him starting would be good.
I've never said that I have given up on watson the player. I'm saying with marginally better backup QB play the Browns can win more games. Especially the close ones. The name of the game is to win. You just said it yourself. The Browns "quarterback play is the worst in football". DTR nor P.J. will have the stat lines that Dobbs does. Say what you will about Dobbs not being able to stay on a roster because with that said he's outshining anything the Browns have in the backup role. Minnesota had no problems trading for him when their starter went down. Of course some people think they know more than the Vikings coaching staff I suppose.
Pit, you know you can't win that argument. Stefanski and this front office are rarely held accountable for anything. I mean think about it, we had the worst DT's in the NFL for 2 seasons before seriously attempting to address it. The Browns had a 3rd round WR that they refused to cut for 3-years that shouldn't have made the roster in year 1. Now the Browns trade a starting WR to open a roster spot for another 3rd rounder that's been inactive nearly every week. The Browns have not only the worst LT in the NFL based on PFF Grading but the worst starting tackle overall according to PFF Grades and the Browns exercised his 5th year option. The backup QB situation is playing out and not in a good way but more importantly, the Browns 230M guaranteed investment after a year and a half hasn't been close to performing at top 5 elite level as expected. Considering Watson hasn't played or practiced much at all the last 45 days (outside the Indy disaster), how much of an improvement at QB do we really expect trotting the 24th QBR ranked QB out there? He's actually performed worse than Jones, Love, Wilson, Howell and Dobbs thus far in 2023. How's that for a ROI?
It seems you insist on denying the statistical difference between Dobbs and any backup we have on the roster. So be it.
Dobbs is a veteran and had history with Petzing. DTR is a rookie and hadn't been getting many starter's reps. Walker was an in-season practice squad signing.
I'd expect the first guy to perform the best.
When Dobbs and DTR were both here, DTR performed better. After Dobbs left, he got starters reps in practice in Arizona. DTR didn't really get them here. Watson was expected to be the guy. Unfortunately, things haven't worked out that way much.
Hopefully, DTR has been taking advantage of going up against the ones in practice.
How much worse could DTR possibly play? Will he give up a dozen turnovers? Will he be an INT machine? Will he look like a late round rookie? Yes, he probably will suck, but will it be PJ WALKER bad, worse, or better? I guess that’s the gamble we’re taking while risking wasting another year under the inept Ski. This team never fails to disappoint. Never.
They drafted DTR. It was not throwing a dart at a board. They did homework on him.
They looked at him during the entire off season. He was in camp. He was in meetings. Camp is no picnic. KS and his coaches determined DTR was better than Dobbs.
How good do you have to be to replace what PJ has done? I mean really.
Yep, playing against NFL players which most of them couldn't even make an NFL roster during preseason is a glowing recommendation. DTR was a draft pick that the Browns had no chance to get anything for. So from an NFL perspective of value, Dobbs is worth more than DTR. They aren't going to toss away a player they just drafted even if they are marginal. I'll give you Anthony Schwartz as a prime example. DTR has potential but trying to claim he is a legitimate option at this point in time based on nothing doesn't cut it.
What you have done is try to claim is that DTR is the better option because they traded Dobbs and kept their first year draft pick. When the fact is trading a complete unknown, fifth round QB pick , DTR to anyone would been impossible to accomplish. So either the entire NFL is wrong on the value of these two players or your premise is empty.
Sure they drafted him. In the fifth round. Yeah, a 62.8 % completion rate with 8td's and 5int's would be a position it would suck to be in right now. lol
It amazes me how the fans of the Browns have not realized the culture of losing that has surrounded this organization since it's return is rooted in changing coaches and general managers every few years. But what does some of our intelligent fan base want? Just that another complete change in coach and general manager. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Did you enjoy the team from 1999 to 2019? Some of you must have quite clearly. The only reason this team is competing right now in the AFC North 4-3, in clearly the strongest conference in the NFL, and playing a very tough schedule so far 30-22 without Nick Chubb and Deshawn Watson for most games is Kevin Stefanski. His tenure from 2020 thru 2023 has been the Browns most successful tenure since their return. But by all means let's go backward. I just don't understand. Some of this fan base anymore. It sure is not like it used to be.
I agree with you that continuity is needed in order to build a dynasty. But can you explain to us what great HC's the Browns have fired that went on to be great HC's elsewhere since 1999? Now keep in mind I'm not one who is railing to fire Stefanski. I'm not one of those people you were referring to. In order to make your point i think you need to provide an example of where that was an actual mistake. I haven't seen one. I haven't seen a single HC since this team returned that went on to be a successful NFL HC anywhere else in the league after they were fired from the Browns.
I hear what you are saying, and it makes me question my criticism of Stefanski.
My issue with Stefanski is something is just a little off. There are too many losses that could have/should have been wins. I do not think he knows how to prioritize winning over scheme and analytics and process. For example, why was Ford in the game late after being injured all week when Strong and Hunt were gashing the Seahawks all game and both having strong games? Strong looked like he could break one at any minute. Were they on some type of pitch count? We see a lot of stuff like no Chubb at critical moments, passing when we should run, running when we should pass, no regard for who is actually in the game...calling the same game plan if Watson is starting or DTR is starting. Or why does every QB seem to regress under him. It's just odd stuff. You take all this odd stuff and stack it up next to the results and there just aren't enough wins. If the odd stuff were producing wins, that would be great. But at some point, there has to be more wins than losses. You have to make the playoffs.
In light of what is happening with the Raiders, it could be way worse. It's making me second guess myself a little bit on Stefanski. We are definitely not a chitshow. I believe continuity and stability is important. But we got to start seeing some improvement, some results. For every SF win, there's a Seattle loss. Meanwhile, the Ravens are running away with the division and the playoffs are getting harder and harder to attain. And there's no reason to play if you aren't going to make the playoffs.
I'm really torn on this. My preference is Stefanski just gets better and we get better results. But if there is any inkling in that building that isn't going to happen, I think you have to move on. There are teams in the league that were good and making the playoffs, got really bad, and are now good and again and will make the playoffs this year while the Browns continue to be stuck in neutral. That's got to be frustrating for all Browns fans. It is for me.
How many of them got a 2nd chance? I do know that Butch Davis has had success again in college at North Carolina. We have had many assistant coaches that have had quite a bit of success in the NFL as head coaches. Bruce Arains won a Super bowl in Tampa. Kyle Shanahan has been a successful head coach. There have been others. If they were assistants on a staff, I would assume the head coach probably was not as bad as we thought when they were fired. More time could give some of those coaches could have changed the culture. I thought we were close a couple times and coaching changes blew everything up way too soon. Look at Romeo. He had some success with Derrick Anderson and the receivers on that team and 1 bad year and everything was blown up. The Brian Hoyer team under Mike Pettine was blown up way too quickly also. More continuity and patience could have built something. These great assistants could have grown and been retained possibly. Either way those are all what ifs. We are there again. We are close and some fans want to start over again. They must have liked what had been the norm from 1999 to 2019.
So then your answer is no? That no former Browns HC's since 1999 have any success as a HC with any other team in the NFL? Thanks for that. And yes there have been many HC's hired twice in the NFL as HC's. And let me explain something you already know. When a HC is fired the new HC hires his own staff. I was a proponent of naming Shanahan the next HC even though I fully understood that's not usually the way things work unless an NFL HC retires. It's been done quite a bit in terms of interim HC's to fill in for the remainder of the season when HC's have been fired mid season. I mean f your excuse is, "They sucked so badly here that nobody gave them another chance at being an NFL HC", then I agree with you.
So, the question I have is what was the Browns commitment to winning between 1999 to 2019? You may say it was equal to every other team and I'd agree with that premise. Now, my second question is how committed have the Browns been to win since 2019? Let's not forget that the playoff team from 2020 was 70% built by John Dorsey.
In 2021, the Browns were the highest cash spender in the NFL at 239M on their roster with an NFL team cap of 183M.
In 2022, the Browns were the second highest cash spender in the NFL at 276M on their roster with an NFL team cap of 208M. The only team ahead of them was the Los Angeles Rams at $283M. In total only five teams crossed $250m of cash spending that season.
In 2023, the Browns are currently the highest cash spender in the NFL again at $285,353,978 on their roster with an NFL team cap of 224.8M.
Before making any moves or future signings and only based on current players, the Browns are currently committed to the highest spend in 2024 at 252M with a proposed cap of 240.5M and 2025 at 194M.
The Browns organization has spent more money over the last 3-years than any other NFL team. They also appear to be on track for the highest spend again in 2024. For that commitment to winning by ownership (I don't know what else you could call it), Berry and Stefanski have produced an 8-9 record in 2021 and a 7-10 record with a last place finish in 2022. So, the question is, who's responsible for the failure on the ROI? To date, the Browns have deferred 184.6M to build a winner yet zero results thus far and the payments are coming due soon on those deferred costs. The Rams cashed in using this method in 2021. They are also paying more for 4 players this year no longer on the team than they are currently paying for their entire defense in 2023. The Rams are also the lowest spend team in 2023 because of those earlier years deferred costs coming to roost. When they come due, you have to cut somewhere. Bottomline is when does Haslam come to the conclusion that enough is enough. IMHO, that boat has already sailed.
Well, you can't say we're not trying. Jimmy Haslam has shown he's willing to spend to bring us a winner. It's just that someone keeps making roster mistakes. One year it was DB's another year it was LB's last year it was the D-Line and this year we're lacking a capable backup QB. We seem to come up short somewhere even spending all that money.
I hear what you are saying, and it makes me question my criticism of Stefanski.
My issue with Stefanski is something is just a little off. There are too many losses that could have/should have been wins. I do not think he knows how to prioritize winning over scheme and analytics and process. For example, why was Ford in the game late after being injured all week when Strong and Hunt were gashing the Seahawks all game and both having strong games? Strong looked like he could break one at any minute. Were they on some type of pitch count? We see a lot of stuff like no Chubb at critical moments, passing when we should run, running when we should pass, no regard for who is actually in the game...calling the same game plan if Watson is starting or DTR is starting. Or why does every QB seem to regress under him. It's just odd stuff. You take all this odd stuff and stack it up next to the results and there just aren't enough wins. If the odd stuff were producing wins, that would be great. But at some point, there has to be more wins than losses. You have to make the playoffs.
In light of what is happening with the Raiders, it could be way worse. It's making me second guess myself a little bit on Stefanski. We are definitely not a chitshow. I believe continuity and stability is important. But we got to start seeing some improvement, some results. For every SF win, there's a Seattle loss. Meanwhile, the Ravens are running away with the division and the playoffs are getting harder and harder to attain. And there's no reason to play if you aren't going to make the playoffs.
I'm really torn on this. My preference is Stefanski just gets better and we get better results. But if there is any inkling in that building that isn't going to happen, I think you have to move on. There are teams in the league that were good and making the playoffs, got really bad, and are now good and again and will make the playoffs this year while the Browns continue to be stuck in neutral. That's got to be frustrating for all Browns fans. It is for me.
Couldn't have said it better myself I'm tired of hearing KS post-game after a loss always saying he needs to coach better, well it's year 4, those "bugs" should've been ironed out by now. We can forget winning the AFC North this year, going to have to fight for a wild card spot, and these early losses that should've been wins will come back to bite us, when it's late December and we have to rely on other teams to win/lose or some other complex scenario. KS has been reminding me of Jeff Fisher, a perennial 8-8 or 7-9 season coach, very mediocre.
Well, you can't say we're not trying. Jimmy Haslam has shown he's willing to spend to bring us a winner. It's just that someone keeps making roster mistakes. One year it was DB's another year it was LB's last year it was the D-Line and this year we're lacking a capable backup QB. We seem to come up short somewhere even spending all that money.
Strangely enough, every team has those issues but only one team has spent 180M plus over the cap over the last 3-years to correct those issues - oddly they clearly have not corrected the issues. So, after 3 years of wild swing and misses, when do you pull the plug on something that clearly is not working? IMHO, it's already past due.
Ski is an inept head coach, period. If he was just the OC, the only position he truly seems to be interested in, he would be fired tomorrow. Pretending he’s some kind of real HC doesn’t change that. Ski just sucks at his job. Help the guy out and let him go find another one.
I don't visit enough boards of other teams to say this definitively, but it seems we've got to have some of the most obstinate, Dunning-Kruger effect suffering fans in the league.
Which is it? You miss time and are rusty or, rusty is an excuse?
Berry did make a mistake. However, it was not when DW was injured. When DW was injured it was too late.
It was before camp when the backups were Dobbs and DTR. Neither player is a quality backup.
A quality backup quarterback is a veteran who has started and seen NFL defenses. Guys like Mariota, Winston, Darnold, Wentz.
Players who can step in and give you a chance for a few weeks.
This is on Berry. Overall Berry has done a decent job. He has made mistakes including last year when the DT was a disaster.
Good GM's are not perfect. There are GM's in the HOF who made horrible mistakes. Bobby Beathard is in the HOF. He also is the GM who drafted Ryan Leaf.
Really, you want to use a play on words? Watson has started 9 games for the Browns (discounting the disaster in Indy). Six of those games were excused for rust. One was excused for the weather. One was excused for the loss of Chubb. The final game was decent but nowhere near elite and resulted in an injury where he's basically been unavailable for 40 plus days and counting. If Watson returns this week, a poor performance will immediately bring out the "he's rusty" excuse for missing 40 plus days - you can bank on it. The other point not talked about here is the thought process. Is playing a Watson against ARI at 65% or 75% risking reinjury more important this week than sitting him until he's 100% ready to go knowing you have BAL, PIT, and DEN up the next 3 games that could make or break your season?
As far as your comment about Berry, good GM's are not perfect - i agree. However, GM's are rarely (if ever) given an extra 180M plus over a 3-year period to address those issues. If you were the owner of the Browns, would you accept the excuse that the team doesn't have a reliable backup QB when you were allowed to spend an extra 180M plus over the cap limit the last 3 years? Or that your team has spent more money than any other team in the NFL over the last 3 years only to have no quality backup QB, 2 years of trash DT's, the worst LT in the game, and only 1 WR TD through 7 games after you revamped the WR room and still have questions at the LB position? All this and currently you are on pace to again have the highest spend in the NFL in 2024.
When do you as an owner say enough is enough? Then, what about the HC that has failed to turn that spend into a Super Bowl winner? Right now, since 2021 when the team build was Stefanski's and Berry instead of Dorsey, over 41 games and 180M plus in extra spend, the results Berry and Stefanski have posted to date is 19 wins and 22 losses. Even if you want to give them the record of the 2020 team that was 75%-80% built by Dorsey, the team of Stefanski and Berry have a current regular season record of 30-29 and a 180M plus spend over the cap. Finally, when that window closes because that 180M plus now needs to be accountable to the cap, what will my team look like when this group could only deliver barely a .500 record with an extra 180M plus? IMHO, Stefanski and Berry's seat should be glowing a bright red for the results they have posted and the heat they deserve.
), and you have an offense that is the yin to Schwartz's yang. And he's got a big yang.
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