- we're up 20-17 with 2:05 left at midfield ... 3rd and 3 ... how in the heck are we not running that ball?
I understand when people say "It's the 2 minute warning anyways, so why not pass?" ... you simply can't let PJ Walker throw that ball
This…….. PJ got away with one against SF. KS was defended by some who appreciated the aggressive call and would have blamed Walker had the INT happened.
Stefanski just doesn’t learn. The Browns have opportunities to control the clock and field position but will not learn.
Look at Njoku. Dude had a career game, huge play I knew Stefanski was passing because that is what he does. 85 was open. Didn’t even think of looking that direction.
The point is not that he called that play. The point is who was in there to make that play.
- we're up 20-17 with 2:05 left at midfield ... 3rd and 3 ... how in the heck are we not running that ball?
I understand when people say "It's the 2 minute warning anyways, so why not pass?" ... you simply can't let PJ Walker throw that ball
This…….. PJ got away with one against SF. KS was defended by some who appreciated the aggressive call and would have blamed Walker had the INT happened.
Stefanski just doesn’t learn. The Browns have opportunities to control the clock and field position but will not learn.
It's not about KS learning anything. He's SO arrogant, he thinks he knows EVERYTHING and is the smartest guy in the room. EVERY DAMN TIME. Remember, with KS, it's "about the process and not the results". Sorry coach, but the NFL IS a results business. And if YOU don't start getting the results, YOU are gone. Please don't sign this clown to an extension. Please.
The Browns finally have a leader in the building. It won't be long before Jim Schwartz is in charge. Thankfully.
I think sometimes he forgets who the QB is at the current moment ... his offense is his offense, regardless if it's Watson or Walker.
in his defense, Walker has looked a bit better ... but he's still a turnover machine. I can't fathom putting the team's fate in his hands at that moment
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Until we can go a season without losing 4/5 games in this fashion, we shall continue to be the same old Browns. Every team takes a bad loss throughout the year. The Browns give up more than a couple and in many instances create ways to lose.
But we currently are 4-3 with a not so good Arizona team coming to town. Although we should definitely be 5-2, our record is not bad. We have a good roster and an above average D. A place kicker we have not seen the likes of since the great Phil Dawson. As well as Myles Garrett!!!!!
We are in a lot better shape than most want to admit. Looking to be 1-0 this week.
his offense is his offense, regardless if it's Watson or Walker.
And this IS the EXACT PROBLEM and THE reason why Stefanski will NEVER lead this or any other team anywhere. I firmly believe that to be successful, you need to maximize the potential of your players by matching their abilities to the play design. Stefanski just DOESN'T get it. He NEVER will. And that will be his undoing in Cleveland. The sooner, the better.
The Browns finally have a leader in the building. It won't be long before Jim Schwartz is in charge. Thankfully.
People are just frustrated and some of that frustration is of their won making. I'm not saying they are wrong about that last O call. I tend to agree with them that was a bad call. By any measure they should have run the ball. But they just came off of winning two straight games most thought we would lose and it seems many are having a melt down because they lost a game.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Ok Monday week 8 is done. Who is on the firing line?
Belichick what have you done lately ? Your team stinks.
Shanahan lost three straight. You suck.
Tomlin -34 in point differential. One of the worst offenses in football.
McVay you have lived off one good year. What have you done since?
Reid how can you lose to the Broncos?
Any head coach now under 500. Give me a reason they should keep their job? They suck.
because all of the ones you named have been successful for many years with super bowls and deep playoff runs..Stefanski, not so much
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
I understand the benefit to running out of empty formations ... but it KILLS us more often than it helps us
I think we have to totally abandon that formation
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
However, stating an opinion and not looking at the facts does not make your opinion right.
Since you believe that he doesn't match players to play design. Provide examples. If you have a real case explain it.
I can provide plenty of plays designs made specifically for players.
The TE Bryant takes the snap. Everyone on the defense was buying TE sneek. Pitch to Hunt. Game over.
Look at the stats of Cousins, Mayfield, and Jocoby. Their best seasons were under KS.
Baker was a limited passer who had a hard time playing from the pocket and finding secondary receivers.
KS developed a two TE play action scheme. Play action allowed for counter roll to the left so Baker could see a number one and second option receiver.
Chubb an elite back was provided a zone blocking scheme. Allowing Chubb to use his instincts for cut back lanes. Chubb excelled in the scheme. He was kept fresh by a rotation to Hunt. Hunt was used for specific plays utilizing his skills as a runner and pass catcher.
So what do you have other your misinformed opinion?
his offense is his offense, regardless if it's Watson or Walker.
And this IS the EXACT PROBLEM and THE reason why Stefanski will NEVER lead this or any other team anywhere. I firmly believe that to be successful, you need to maximize the potential of your players by matching their abilities to the play design. Stefanski just DOESN'T get it. He NEVER will. And that will be his undoing in Cleveland. The sooner, the better.
uhh... Stefanski tweaked the Offense for Walker.
Anyone who knows anything about our play-calling will attest to this.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
Sad part is KS has the arrogance to think that PJ played well enough to go 2-1 and then proceed to move forward with him at QB instead of making a trade
KS isn't the one who trades players. That would be the FO led by Andrew Berry.
PJ Walker is the equivalent of Shane Falco.
He's pulling rabbits out of his backside but he has no business being a QB in the NFL.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
I don't disagree with you. So long as people understand who it is that signed him and who it is not signing an upgrade at the present time. It isn't KS.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Just watched the rest of the game, had to work Sunday.
What more is there to say? We should have ran when we passed on 3rd and 3. PJ bonked it right off his helmet. Good grief. It's too bad, it was a fun game to watch.
Agreed. I got that same sickening feeling in my stomach after watching that INT. yesterday that I've gotten for the last 55 years watching my Browns. Same exact feeling. I've felt it many times.
I've got no problem with KS. He called an exeptional game. It is not his fault that he is working with an XFL QB.
If anything, it is AB's fault for not giving us a reliable backup like Brissett.
These sentiments are confusing to me. For years we begged to have competent coaching, a good GM, and a franchise QB. People on here used to bemoan the talent on this team.
You never read or hear about the talent on this team anymore. I mean there are some game day overreactions. But are people really upset with the talent level on the team? Are all decisions perfect? No. Can units be even more talented? Of course. But that is true of 31 other franchises as well. The playing field is pretty level or we have a talent advantage for almost every single game we go into.
But we can't win our division. Can't stack wins. Can't make the playoffs.
And this is a Berry issue?
If someone wants to claim that Stefanski is handcuffed by the QB position I'll listen. But geez the HC has to.do something to impact wins when everything is not perfect. That HIS JOB. The game yesterday was winnable. He helped lose the game.
There's an interesting post on the OBR from someone who was at the game. Said Stefanski has very little interaction with the team during the game and literally none with the defense. How is that a head coach of a professional football team? The HEAD COACH.
We are in purgatory with this coach. He'll continue to get the benefit of the doubt because everything isn't perfect and his consistent 7-8 win, no playoff seasons will continue to get excused. It's frigging maddening.
The battle between numbers, analytics and common sense – Terry Pluto’s Browns Postgame Scribbles
Updated: Oct. 30, 2023, 4:48 a.m.|Published: Oct. 30, 2023, 4:37 a.m. By Terry Pluto, cleveland.com
1. There are times when football analytics and human nature collide. So it was in the key part of the Browns’ loss to Seattle. They had the ball on the Cleveland 41-yard line. It was third and
2. A key part of this story is the clock. There was 2:03 left. Analytics says try a pass. If it’s incomplete, the clock would have stopped anyway because of the 2-minute warning. In terms of taking time off the clock, there was no advantage to running the ball. That’s what the numbers say.
3. There probably are numbers showing a team usually converts more often when passing on third and 3 than running the ball. Besides, the Browns had been running the ball effectively at the Seattle defense on this last drive. Seattle probably thought they’d run it again.
4. OK, that’s numbers. Let’s talk human beings. Let’s talk P.J. Walker. I love Walker’s resilience and tenacity. You can see how his teammates respond to him. Stefanski put together a good game plan with the kind of throws to help Walker look good. Heading into this critical play, Walker was 15 of 30 passing for 248 yards. He had an interception and a TD pass. He also had lost a fumble.
5. Here’s the human part: Walker throws interceptions. Heading into that game-changing play, he had thrown four interceptions in his 12 quarters with the Browns. That’s why many of you (including me) wanted the Browns to run the ball. Stefanski called a pass. The ball was picked off. That set up the winning TD drive for Seattle.
6. There are videos showing some receivers were open and how a good QB would have spotted them. No argument from me. But this is P.J. Walker, a guy who has been cut/waived at least a dozen times. This was not the right time to ask him to make a big play.
7. Walker had suffered a physical beating in this game. He was sacked three times. He took 10 QB hits. He kept bouncing back up. He kept encouraging his teammates. It’s admirable and it’s why I wanted Walker to win this game. As I wrote, it would have been a great story.
8. Maybe the Browns still lose. Maybe they would not have picked up the 3 yards for a first down. Maybe they would have punted, and Seattle would have had something like an 80-yard TD drive to win the game.
9. Instead, the Browns gave the ball to Seattle on the Cleveland 47-yard line after the interception with 1:57 left. Five plays later, Seattle scored a TD.
10. Coach Kevin Stefanski on the decision not to run the ball: “(Running) definitely was a consideration. There’s going to be plays you want back. You’re also looking to try to give your guys the best chance to go make a play.”
11. More Stefanski: “Obviously with the interception, with the outcome, you’re always thinking what can you do differently. We had options there. Certainly you can run and certainly you can pass it, but the result, that was tough.”
12. The defense also deserves blame. They had been dominant after Seattle scored a TD on each its first two possessions. After that, the Seahawks punted five times and were picked off twice in their next seven possessions.
13. But with 1:57 left, Seattle easily flew down the field: Five plays, 57 yards, a TD. If the defense could have at least held the Seahawks to a field goal, the game would have been tied at 20-20 and headed into overtime.
14. Now there are calls for Stefanski to be fired … or at least stop calling plays. I won’t go there. Stefanki is 2-1 with Walker playing QB. This team is 4-3 with Deshaun Watson out the last three games, and likely to be out quite a bit longer. But really, who knows when it comes to Watson and the condition of his rotator cuff – other than he didn’t practice last week.
15. Should the Browns check on Jacoby Brissett or another veteran QB as Tuesday’s trading deadline approaches? Absolutely. But I would have wanted to run the ball with Brissett and most other QBs. There are times when the numbers suggest one course of action, but common sense and the people actually asked to execute the play indicate it’s time to go against the numbers.
great article by Pluto ... it's how I feel exaclty
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
That being said nobody gets to know what would have happened.
If the pass play had worked we would not be saying anything about it. If they had run the ball there might have been a fumble perhaps due to Seattle stacking the box.
Don't overlook the elephant in the room. That dropped pick 6 would have given us a 2 score lead and probably sealed the win.
yep, Schwartz and the D drew up a perfect scheme (actually 3-4 times) to jump the quick outs by Metcalf ... that was our big shot
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Don't overlook the elephant in the room. That dropped pick 6 would have given us a 2 score lead and probably sealed the win.
yep, Schwartz and the D drew up a perfect scheme (actually 3-4 times) to jump the quick outs by Metcalf ... that was our big shot
That's not the elephant in the room, the elephant in the room is,
No Hail Mary Pass in the Browns final 4 offensive snaps
Not even an attempt. where would be the harm? I doubt anyone could seriously find a fault with a deep pass attempt in the final 38 seconds needing a TD to win the game and over 60 yards to go. And, the @uarterback? appeared to be healthy, the top 3 WR, of the day? appeared to be healthy, the OL, appeared to be giving at least a little bit of amount of time, that I feel certain an attempt could have been made. The Cincy game, they did and they won... attempted a few downfield passes on the day the forty niner game, they did and they won. yesterday at seattle, they did not make even attempts downfield, ... largely, and, they lost. < That is the Elephant , all over the room, like a bull in a china shop.
Elephant number 2? The Browns got robbed, there was obvious holding of our final tackler on their go ahead score. ROBBED, WE GOT ROBBED I tell you.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
Please explain how a team is expected to win with the lowest rated quarterback in football?
I get what you are saying - and the injury to Chubb is a double whammy. But with the same breath as you write the above statement - and you can swap DTR and his rookie status into the mix - the question can be flipped to say please explain how putting the most crucial play of the game into the hands of the lowest rated QB in the NFL makes sense? It cuts both ways.
As I said in previous post - most of the game we had a solid gameplan. We got pass happy a couple times but recovered and got more balance... Seattle are a good team and their home field advantage is very real - but the call that ended the game for us was very typical of Stefanski. In the Athletic - their Browns beat reporter even wrote 'I knew KS was going to pass it' - as I reckon a lot of CLE fans did too who know Stefanski .... you can bet that SEA were somewhat expecting a pass too. So there was no clever misdirection and calling an unexpected play - then you add the lowest rated QB in the NFL - then you add in the momemnt and pressure ... It seems indefensible to me personally though I don't mind if you are anyone else disagrees, just exp[laining my 2 cents.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Sad part is KS has the arrogance to think that PJ played well enough to go 2-1 and then proceed to move forward with him at QB instead of making a trade
KS isn't the one who trades players. That would be the FO led by Andrew Berry.
That is a part of what one has to deal with around here.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Don't overlook the elephant in the room. That dropped pick 6 would have given us a 2 score lead and probably sealed the win.
What a missed opportunity - but Newsome was out and that was the backup that missed the INT if I am not mistaken?
It was.
Many say that DB's are receivers who can't catch. I think there is some truth in that. If they could, they would have been made receivers many years ago.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
If it works. All is well. When it does not work. It is the wrong play.
Look at the play. There were guys open. He had three options. PJ never looked. He decided pre snap he was going to Cooper.
Njoku was open in the flat. Ford was coming open in the middle. The run could have easily been stopped. Then it would have been "why oh why didn't he pass?"
Three yards is a 50/50 call. PJ blew it. Sure the call could have been run. Who knows if it would have worked?
The defense could have stopped them and the game would have been won. They had stopped them the previous seven series.
We lost a tough game. That is the way it goes. I have heard people bitch about play calling for fifty years.
If it works. All is well. When it does not work. It is the wrong play.
Look at the play. There were guys open. He had three options. PJ never looked. He decided pre snap he was going to Cooper.
Njoku was open in the flat. Ford was coming open in the middle. The run could have easily been stopped. Then it would have been "why oh why didn't he pass?"
Three yards is a 50/50 call. PJ blew it. Sure the call could have been run. Who knows if it would have worked?
The defense could have stopped them and the game would have been won. They had stopped them the previous seven series.
We lost a tough game. That is the way it goes. I have heard people bitch about play calling for fifty years.
You're still not getting the premise of what he is saying. All the Twitter idiots posting about how wide open everyone was aren't getting it either. And the biggest issue is Stefanski doesn't get it. This team is 6-2 with a coach that really prioritizes winning over the entire sixty minutes.
Walker has repeatedly demonstrated he is incapable of executing simple plays. Through three games. Over and over. You are completely gashing the Seahawks on the ground. Your choices to try and ice the game are to run and maybe have to punt but put your defense in an advantageous position or pass it, with a practice squad QB who has demonstrated he can't execute simple plays.
How Stefanski coached the first 58 minutes is completely washed away by poor decisions that lead to losses in the last two minutes. He did a hell of a coaching job until he didn't. This team with a real head coach is 6-2 minimum. It's so, so frustrating.
The playoffs are a pipe dream at this point. Another wasted season. With ten games left, want to know how I know that? Because Stefanski is still making the same mistakes four years in. Guy doesn't learn. Hasn't grown into the role. There is no reason to expect different results.
If it works. All is well. When it does not work. It is the wrong play.
Look at the play. There were guys open. He had three options. PJ never looked. He decided pre snap he was going to Cooper.
Njoku was open in the flat. Ford was coming open in the middle. The run could have easily been stopped. Then it would have been "why oh why didn't he pass?"
Three yards is a 50/50 call. PJ blew it. Sure the call could have been run. Who knows if it would have worked?
The defense could have stopped them and the game would have been won. They had stopped them the previous seven series.
We lost a tough game. That is the way it goes. I have heard people bitch about play calling for fifty years.
You're still not getting the premise of what he is saying. All the Twitter idiots posting about how wide open everyone was aren't getting it either. And the biggest issue is Stefanski doesn't get it. This team is 6-2 with a coach that really prioritizes winning over the entire sixty minutes.
Walker has repeatedly demonstrated he is incapable of executing simple plays. Through three games. Over and over. You are completely gashing the Seahawks on the ground. Your choices to try and ice the game are to run and maybe have to punt but put your defense in an advantageous position or pass it, with a practice squad QB who has demonstrated he can't execute simple plays.
There was also evidence earlier in the game where PJ Walker demonstrated that he locks onto his primary read, does not go through his progressions and ignores/does not see open targets. To think he was going to go anywhere with the ball other than to Cooper on than final 3rd and 3 was wishful thinking at best.
Unfortunately, this has just been gnawing at me since the Jets game last year, and I fear that I am right.
In sports you have people who are just winners. Guys who make the best decisions or the best plays and get it done when it matters most. This can be players or it can be coaches.
Stefanski is just not one of these guys. He may be able to win under perfect circumstances but he's not going to "decision" his way to a win. He's not going to "coach" his way to a win. Occasionally, yes he will. But not consistently enough and not enough to fulfill the team's goals.
And another troubling trend with Stefanski is the scapegoating. Now he's benching PJ Walker for doing exactly as PJ Walker would have been predicted to do. Instead of saying "it was a dumb play call, that's on me", he's now benching PJ. How many scapegoats has Stefanski had...Baker, Woods, Priefer, PJ, Brissett, Watson. No one in the history of the NFL gets more scapegoats than Stefanski.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)