DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The part of the DW trade that is forgotten

I hope the next 3 years are better with DW than the first 2. But regardless, we had to do something and we did. Baker, IMO, wasn't going to lead us to a Super Bowl. His skills were too limited.

Point, set and match in any conversation on the subject, in my opinion. And very well stated.

The last time Baker played here healthy he had us one Chad Henne jailbreak away (or one Rashard Higgins TD fumble for touchback away) from the play-in game to the Super Bowl. And that with you and me at DT and Jarvis Landry as his #1 WR.

Limited? Yes he is. Incapable of getting us deep into the playoffs? No one knows...but if he had a decent defense...we'd have played in the AFC Championship game that year....with Landry and Higgins at WR.

This year, I kept reading about how DW4 doesn't have to carry this team...just don't mess it up. About how he still wasn't comfortable in the offense that he and Ski were supposed to craft in the offseason. We already had THAT guy...plus picks and $$$. DW4 has to be better than that ^ ...otherwise this trade will be talked about just short of forever.

I really don’t think the Browns management and coaching staff factored in a J Cutler effect on Baker.

There was a time when people needed a new car so bad they had to do something. Some of them decided to purchase a Yugo.

Yes, report cards and employee evaluations should never be spoken of. Honest assessment of your current situation and how you arrived there is frowned upon. That's hilarious. It's not "anguish" or a "pointless self-misery exercise." It's evaluating where you stand at the current time on a trade that was made. It's assessing where you are in terms of ROI. You know, real world $#!+.

Wrong. Read it again. What he's saying is that how the other team benefits has no bearing on your situation, so it's pointless to worry about it.

Exactly. "Where you stand" has nothing to do with the other team. Analyzing from that POV is 100% loser mentality.

What is being lost in all of this. How many of the players assembled on this team came to the Browns because Watson was the QB? I have heard said by a few of our players that signed here as free agents they were excited to play with Watson. This part of the conversation is always left out by those writing their opinions with an agenda. Were 7-3. Enjoy it!!!

Your description of reality is hilarious! This is the tactic used when one only wishes to look at one side of the coin which by doing so throws objectivity out the window. Two teams are involved in a trade. To look at how that trade worked out your suggestion is that we ignore one side of it. Brilliant! lol

Ok since the trade

Browns 2022 (7-10) 2023 (7-3) = 14 - 10

Texans 2022 (3-13) 2023 (6-4) = 9 - 17

So far Browns seem to have had better side of the trade in wins and losses to this point.

The Texans have got from trade
Kenyon Green G - 823 snaps in 2022, 12 penalties and 4 sacks allowed and has not played in 2023.
Will Anderson DE - 33 tackles, 22 solo, 11 assisted, 3 sacks.
Dameon Pierce RB - 2022 220 carriers for 939 yards and 4 td's, 2023 109 carriers for 327 yards 1 TD

Deshaun Watson stats

2022 58.2 completion %, 1,102 yards, 7 td, 5 int's, 79.1 rating - 6 games - 3 wins and 3 loses.
2023 61.4 completion %, 1,115 yards, 7 td, 4 int's, 84.3 rating - 6 games - 5 wins and 1 loss.

Total = 12 games (8-4 record) 2,217 yards 14 td's to 9 int's 81.7 rating

I think the Browns are still slightly ahead with the Texans getting no real production from the 3 picks they got from the trade so far.

Watson will have played 11 out of 34 games at the end of his second season in Cleveland. It takes a lot of spin to change that. Everything else that has happened has nothing to do with that trade. But nice try.

He started 12 games. He is credited for playing in 12 games. Yes, he got hurt and did not finish the Indy game. Is that spin? Stats say he started 12 games for the Browns and the Browns have won 8 and lost 4 of those games. If the Interception counts from that game and the completion % counts for that game so should everything else involved. That is not spin that is stats. Those stats are exactly what he is credited for.

Okay, include a small portion of a game where he went 1-5 with 1 int. I don't think that helps your argument much. So you want to give him credit for winning that game? That's hilarious!

Maybe explain what "stats" are again? Have fun!

I took the stats posted right off a web site. Pit thinks he knows more than all of us and the web sites creators that have the stats posted. He is a piece of work for sure!!!

Do you give DW credit for the W in a game he went 1-5 with 1 int. before leaving early in that game with an injury? A game where the Browns scored 39 points which watson had nothing to do with?

Have fun!

Curious if you read the entirety of my original post, not just the quoted blurb? I suspect you haven’t, which is fine, whatever. Negotiations are never about objectivity. It’s about your very subjective self interests, isolated as much as possible against all distracting data and irrelevant considerations. As an outsider with no stake, perhaps you’re interested in objectivity. You can’t worry about the Texans. Or rather, you have to severely subordinate the interests of the other side. There are caveats of course, which I mentioned in my original post. But you’ll never do any trades if you worry you’ll accidentally benefit your trade partner. Plus, very few trade offs in this world are zero sum, where one side nets all the benefits the other nets zero, or they net them around the same time etc. This is one of the more classic ways people and organizations screw themselves up. They feel they need to be perceived to “win” a trade rather than execute a trade that’s necessary or important or just pencils out for them.

Now, it may come to pass that this works out to be a lousy trade for us. But the Texans’ net is not really part of the analysis.

I did read it. But when you trade with a team, their end of it is not irrelevant. To weigh the outcome of a transaction between two parties, you must look at the outcome on both ends of such a trade. Weighing the positives and negatives of any transaction weighs what each party gained or lost in that trade. For me to agree with you I would have to believe that what you gave up in actual assets holds no value as it pertains to a trade. I certainly do not believe that is true.

I'll give you an example. The Browns worked out a deal to get Brock Osweiler for 16 million. They ate 10 million of his guaranteed money in order to do that. Then they traded away Osweiler for a second round pick. Which means they actually put a dollar amount on the value of a second round pick. If a second round pick had a value of at least 10 mil. in 2017, what was the value of a first round pick in 2022? Then multiply that by three plus the other picks involved. That would give you a good idea of just how high the price was for watson.

So if you wish to leave the Texans portion of what they gained out of it, then you have to at least figure out what the actual price it cost the Browns for watson. Or should that too not be considered?

But any way you slice it, to know who got thew advantage of a trade, you have to look at both sides. We live in a results oriented society. I'm not sure how you can know who got the advantage in a deal if you don't look at the results of both sides. Your claim seems to be that you shouldn't go "into a trade" thinking that way. That doesn't mean your thinking turns out to be correct and the only way to know if it did or not is to look at all of the results.

The really interesting twist in all of this would be if the Browns go on to win it all this year.

mind = fried.
logic = illusion.

Fixed that for ya Purp.

It doesn't mean anything.

If Houston went and blew every one of the picks they received you wouldn't say we made the best trade ever. You would say Houston blew the picks.

Exactly, because what if we win it all without him when we brought him in because we felt we needed him to win it all.
We could have just built this defense sooner and been here.

Okay then, since they valued a second round pick at a minimum 10 mil. they ate in the Osweiler deal, how much was each of those first round picks they gave Houston worth? And many claimed giving up that 10 mil. for a second round pick was brilliant......

Brock Osweiler trade smart move by Browns' front office

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-brock-osweiler-trade-smart-move-by-browns-front-office

In 2017 that second round lick was valued at at least 10 mil. So what was a first round pick worth in 2022? Just multiply that by three and add the 230 mil.

I love how you try to spew that BS when I have been very supportive of not only this coaching staff but Berry as well in his overall performance as GM. I don't hesitate to point out when I think he's wrong but I also give him credit for when he's right. I have especially praised him for this past off season. But no matter how much it pains you to admit it, the price they paid for watson has been a disaster to this point.

That may well turn around over the next three seasons. There's no way to predict that. But the report card as of now is in and there's no doubt a parent teacher conference is in order.

It is odd how at times some posters claim "the game is won in the trenches" until they say something all together different.

However we win it so be it. I don't care if you're playing QB.

As for the defense, they were never going to be good with Woods.

They would never have been "Schwartz good".

Much closer to Anthony Schwartz good.

I think any time you improve your DL to help stop the run there will be "some improvement". But the biggest difference I see is that Schwartz used many of the very same players Woods had on the roster in ways that have played to their strengths. A prime example of that for me is JOK. Bone pimped him in the draft harder than anyone. I too want the Browns to draft him. His best assets that are the reasons he was pimped were squandered by Woods. There are certainly more examples such as how Woods used the CB's which were known for their man coverage and used a lot of zone. When you ignore playing to the strength of your roster the talent of your players never comes through. Schwartz knows how to maximize the ability of the roster. IMO hiring Schwartz is the best off season move the Browns made.

Yep. Delpit would be another. Most of these defensive picks were based on huge upside, then we told then to squat down and fit in a box.

8 wins 2 years
120 million

Essentially, Either the guy comes back and has 3 great years, or we were just on the wrong end of the worst trade in sports history. Compare it to the Rickey Williams trade or Herschel Walker trade, - They didn’t guarantee those guys that kind of money, plus, those guys gave their new employers at least some production. - All without dragging the name of the organization through the mud of allegations of sexual improprieties.

Compare this trade to the Mathew Stafford trade between Detroit and LA. That was a great trade for LA and is turning out to be a great trade for Detroit.

Now compare the Watson Trade. The Texans are in a great position while we look like a bunch of idiots as the guy was suspended for essentially a season and can’t stay healthy.

I digress but this has been a complete disaster.

This is depressing. I am choosing to think about the Mike Phipps to Chicago for the draft pick that got us Ozzie Newsome. I feel better already. Nothing I can do about the DW trade, just like there is nothing I can do about losses over the years caused by bad bounces, uncalled penalties, kicks that sailed right or left and dropped balls. I will watch the Jag game and hope we win, and next week will be better if we do.

When Andrew Berry gave up that kings ransom
For DeShawn Watson did even look Into if Watson
Had actual leadership skills?
That's kinda of Uber important when addressing
The QB position
Has Watson shown any traits of leadership in
His NFL career?

I thought that leadership was one of the things he was heralded for going back to Clemson.

I think the team plays for him even when he's playing poorly.

It's pretty evident the Texans took the Browns to the cleaners
On that trade for Watson. It might go down as one of the worst
Trades in the last 30 years

Are you trolling?

Sometimes even I think he is. But if you look at the results thus far based on the return on investment, unless there is some drastic turnaround it's hard at this point in time to say he's wrong. At the very least it ranks up there.