It takes 2 to dance. The team that the Browns acquired DW
From aka the Houston Texans is looking like a sleeping
Giant. They are ahead of schedule in their rebuilding process
They are a bit similar to the Bengals a few years ago.
Big QB production and a emerging offense.
And a defense that quietly makes big time plays.
Oh by the way the ever so intelligent Browns front office
Gave the Texans 3 1st RD draft picks to help
Accelerate their progress.
Tides turn quick in the NFL. The Texans are a legit threat
To the Chiefs. Plus they have loads of money under
The salary cap.
If the Texans make it to.the SB in the next 4 years
They can thank the Cleveland Browns for it.

Cool.

I'll never fault our FO for TRYING to solve the QB position ... we've basically failed at it for 30 years and it's held us back

At this point, we can't worry about what we gave up .. we have a good enough TEAM to compete. We have to hope that the QB position can keep the boat afloat.

They hit on a QB from their own draft pick not the Browns. They used some Browns picks to move up to get a pass rusher from Alabama. Which moved the needle more? Besides that if Watson does not get injured the Browns are 6-3 the Texans 5-4. Spin that however you like.

I can understand that thought process. I guess the question now is has the FO actually solved the QB position? Two years after the trade, has the FO solved the QB position in Cleveland or is the team still basing success of the move still based on the players performance in 2020 and earlier? The Browns traded for an experienced top 5 elite QB. Have the Browns received consistent elite performance over these first 2 years? This is or was not a trade that was expected to take 3-years to show a ROI. I can also agree somewhat that the Browns have basically failed at finding the elite franchise QB for 30 years. The question is from what we have seen actually produced in 10 game performance over the last 2-years any different from what we seen the last 30 in its totality? Remember this, the acquisition was made not because the team wasn't good or couldn't win - it was supposedly made because the Browns did not have a top 5 elite QB that could take them to the ultimate goal of a Super Bowl, not just the playoffs.

For all the draft picks sacrificed and 230M invested, have the Browns without a doubt received what the FO traded for as of today? Is the position of QB for the Cleveland Browns today in any better shape than it was in January 2022 when the Browns FO started on this franchise crippling quest. No is the only viable answer.

Yes it is. Watson and the Browns went into Baltimore and beat Lamar Jackson. Watson outperformed Lamar in that game and carried the team behind a 14 for 14 completions and 2TD performance in the 2nd half. Leading the team to 3 Touchdown drives in the 2nd half on a team that has not given up 2 TD's in a game at home all season. The team is 8-4 with Watson under center since last year week 12 and were positioned for a playoff push and contending for a Division title. This team has not competed for a Division title since they came back in 1999 and have not won a Division title since 1989.

No they definitely didnt solve it ... they've made it more frustrating and murky. We are good DESPITE the QB position.

They tried ... it failed

Just cause you beat the Ravens in 1 game that hardly justifies
The trade. The Ravens still have yet to advance far in
The playoffs with Lamar Jackson
It looks like now the Texans are getting the better of the trade

Funny how some people hang their hat on the 2nd half of the BAL game ignoring the first half. I'm not trying to deflate his 2nd half performance because it was actually good but did the Browns really pay for just a good half of QB play? It's also hilarious that the Indy win keeps getting put in the Watson win column for some reason.

Watson still has a 44.7 QBR for the 2023 season that currently ranks him 23rd. That's behind those other elite QB's like 22nd ranked Love GPB, 21st ranked Howell WAS, 14th ranked Mayfield TBB, 13th ranked Dobbs MIN, 11th ranked Minshew IND, and 10th ranked Stroud HOU and just barely better than 26th ranked Jones NEP and 24th ranked Ridder ATL. Yet some will attempt to argue that the Browns have received what they have paid for?

I'll never fault Evel Knievel for trying to jump the Snake River Canyon either but that doesn't mean it turned out well. We live in a results oriented world. Ford tried with the Edsel too.

For what it is worth, they got a terrible OG that is currently on IR and a Linebacker that they had to give up a ton more capital to go get.
The rest of the trade stuff is so muddled in further trades that it's just a wash. We actually ended up getting Emerson as a result of some of that further trading, which bolsters our side of it.

Furthermore, even when you look at who we might have picked based on who wasn't taken yet at the point of our original picks (2022 #13 and 2023 #12), the names available aren't all that impressive, and because the rest of our roster is already so freaking solid, they wouldn't have provided anywhere near the impact people want to think..... unless someone wants to suggest that we could have stolen Kenny Pickett from Pittsburgh, lol

So, while we definitely haven't gotten any appreciable value from the trade, at all, they have done poorly enough with it that it's actually a push, in my opinion... and I have NEVER been a fan of that trade.

It's not Henry's fault the public couldn't appreciate the Corsair!

My thoughts are along the same lines ^. Whether one likes it or not...DW4...Baker...the $$$...and the picks will be a part of the Browns fandom discussion for a decade or more. It is what it is.

I'm more 'frustrated' that we didn't make a move in '21 at the trade deadline to get a DT and WR...positions we knew were weak in training camp...save cap for 'later' and all that jazz;

Then in '22 we went all-in for DW4 gambling that he'd 'only' be out 4-6 games...poof...there went the '22 season...our DTs were still epically bad at the trade deadline...save the cap for 'later' and all that jazz...that would have bit us in the rear even if DW4 had found his stride when he got back;

Then in '23 we decided that a 5th Rd rookie was good-enough to be the backup...but after one surprise start, we went to a PS guy as the QB. Boy...we sure saved the cap $$$ (again ) on not having a viable backup QB...so damn smart we are.

How did that happen? Plan for next year? Sure. Play and roster for next year? Ok...but not when you think you are in your 'window'.

I'd say the same think if we DID have Dobbs now....that's still not good enough (at least when we broke camp) when you are in your window.

The Bengals are taking chance at their backup too...but they are cheap azzezz. There isn't a backup much better for the Rats to have because LJ is so unique...Pitt is already starting a backup-quality QB.

HINDSIGHT ALERT: If we were so willing to sniff around Brissett at the trade deadline...why did we roll-the-dice while in the window on a 5th Rd rookie as backup QB.

Looking at these moves singularly it doesn't look so bad. But there is a pattern here that isn't very logical.

Side Note on all of this: We ALL *KNEW* that our DTs sucked as far back as 2021. The player selected at our original #13 2022 spot was DT Jordan Davis, Philly.
I don't know a ton about him, but Philly has a pretty solid DLine and his production thus far is very comparable to our DTs, and he'd have been a whole lot cheaper.

According to some on here it's never anyone's fault when something fails. You gotta blame that $#!+ on somebody.

I'll raise you Crystal Pepsi and New Coke.

What failed and QB was injured. An injury is not a failure. The team is 6-3. If DTR can get the team to the playoffs again what failed? The assumption being made is the Watson trade was a failure. He is 8-4 as starter for the Browns. Fact! Currently he as QB has led this team to a 6-3. Fact! That record has positioned the team well for a run at the post season and even a division title. That is what Watson was brought here to do. The problem is now he is injured. That is not a failure. That is injuries do happen.

Watson hasn't played in 11 games last year and only in how many games this year? Other than the Indy game where he threw a total of five passes before leaving the game after five pass attempts going 1-5 with 1 int., he has played a total of five complete games this season and that's all he'll play this season. Out of 34 games in his two combined seasons in Cleveland, he will have played in a total of 11 out of 34 games. Unless of course you want to count the Indy game. And if you wish to, by all means do. While you're certainly correct that watson's injury isn't the Browns fault, it is always a part of the equation. The return on investment in the watson deal has been terrible. Nobody can see into the future. This may turn out well. While you may not like hearing that, that is what the fats actually are.

And I know, I know, none of us can see into the future. But things like report cards and annual employee reviews exist for a reason. To show you where you are in the process. And that's where the Browns are with watson.

The debacle the Browns are left in at the QB position lies squarely on the shoulders of this FO which had no legitimate backup plan in place in case of such an injury. This FO has done some great things and made some great moves. But where they currently stand at the QB poisiton after the watson injury isn't one of them.

I'm not sure how the other team doing well is a failure on your team. Going to have to explain that one a little bit more for me to pay cash for it.

Also, does DW not have 3 more years on his contract? What if he win the SB in the 5th year for the Browns. Does that not matter? Is it still a failure at that point? Can you wait for events to happen before making grand pronouncements? These are life's big questions.

It will matter if and when it happens. You must not like report cards and annual employee evaluation reports. We can't see into the future. What we can do is look at where we are now.

I agree. His post suggests since Houston hit on the QB that they are winning the trade. The problem with that premise is that Houston did not get CJ Stroud from any picks they got for Watson. They were a bad football team last year and earned the #2 overall pick and hit on CJ Stroud. That had nothing to do with the Watson trade.

CJ Stroud was not the number 1 pick we gave up for Watson.

No offense to anyone but I no longer care about the trade, DW’s injury, the curse or anything. DTR is our QB this week and he better play like an NFL quarterback.

If DTR falls flat on his face this week, Berry will pull off something to get a vet.

Tannehill should be available soon.

Well in a division and season when every game matters - waiting for DTR to fail and then doing something about it would be potentially disasterous. Even if it's just to get someone in and learning the playbook and being the backup and demoting Walker to the PS, I can't see the downside in signing someone now.

Can't agree more, people can't let go

Move on next man up

There are things we have no control over, you can talk about the past and rehash it over and over

But nothing will change

Best thing to do is accept it and support it

The Browns are playing good football and have a chance at a play-off spot

One game at a time, time to beat the Steelers

Get back with us after the 2026 season to see how the Watson trade is working out. You may be right or you may be wrong.

Now if you want to throw out stats from half of a injury filled season why not throw out his stats so far in his career?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/3122840/deshaun-watson

Just a minute here, you have the nerve to use the excuse of injury when the player he replaced was injured but received "no excuse" for that injury effecting his play? The guy he replaced didn't have anything close to the #1 defense that Watson has as support either.

It's also bogus now to throw out BS like check his stats from 3 years ago on a different team. The guy has played 11 games in the last 3-years. It's time to quit living in the past and question what he's done for the Browns and the 230M guaranteed contract he's sitting on.

Even if you give Watson the benefit of the doubt and hand him an undeserved Indy win, in 12 games played, Watson only has 2 wins against teams with a record above .500 when they played - [Bal in 2022 with their backup QB playing and now BAL in 2023].

Those 12 games played compared to the previous QB's 14 games played in 2021 show Watson significantly poorer in QB performance in 90% or more of the QB rating categories. Remember, Watson was traded for because it was determined that the Browns had zero chance of ever reaching the Super Bowl without an elite top 5 QB. As of today, 2-years into that elite QB contract, Watson has failed to show that he can put a consistent performance on the field that's any better than the player he replaced statistically.

It should also be noted that in those 12 games played by the Browns elite top 5 QB, he doesn't have a single game where he's passed for over 300 yards. If fact, statistically, 6 of those 12 games played - Watson didn't throw for over 200 yards. That's right, the elite top 5 QB being paid 230M guaranteed didn't throw for at least 200 yards in 50% of the games he has played against 10 teams that had records no better than .500 at the time.

You nor I have a crystal ball that can tell what the next 3-years of Watsons contract with the Browns will bring. What I do know as of now is that Watson has performed poorer than the previous QB, that he will be entering his 4th season since he played as an elite level top 5 QB statistically, and that unless restructured again - will be the highest cap charge QB in the NFL in 2024 @ 63.977M.

We have Watson for the next 3-years and maybe he'll turn it around (we really don't know). However, as each season passes, the heat will get greater each season the Browns miss the Super Bowl (the sole reason he was brought here). As of today, the first 92M paid has been a total failure.

Well, one way to look at it is it’s not $230 million anymore. After this year it’s only $138 million. 👍😀

Hard to argue against the facts!

We all need to keep a semblance of humor Steve. 😜

Can't let go? Yeah, the guy is gone and hasn't been here for years now. When will the fans let it go?

I do find it somewhat comforting how his play was trending most recently. I don't get why it took so long to get him on the path to improvement, but there's a lot I don't understand about the game of football, I guess....

Right after they finally admit that Couch is, and always was, better than Holcomb.

What I have is the nerve to point out you have no clue how that trade is going to turn out. Hell you even admitted that in your response.

BTW those stats are not BS they are facts.

It's also true he has only played in a total of 11 games in the past three years. And you're certainly right that nobody can predict the future. It's also true nobody van refute how the first 40% of his contract with the Browns has turned out. 40% down with 60% to go.

The first 40 turned out like sheet lol

He has shown the ability to be a good QB. All we can do is hope the remaining 60% look more like that than the first 40%.

When going into any negotiation, one of the most common ways people derail themselves is comparing the deal they’re getting to the one their negotiating partner is getting. Stopping yourself from making a trade because it might work out better for your partner is one of the most classic ways to shoot your own foot. You have to isolate your own interests, your internal trade offs, you own IRR so to speak, and not focus on the other guy’s get. The only 2 caveats to this are 1: you realistically think that you could get more in the initial trade, which I don’t suspect we could have really (but I don’t really know and neither do you) and 2: you are giving an undue, relatively riskless advantage over you to a direct competitor.

Have we as of yet gotten good value compared to what we gave up? Of course not. But to anguish over the relative bounty, currently realized or not, of the Texans is a pointless self-misery exercise. The media loves to set things up this way, it’s mentally easy, but you can’t operate a business that requires constant measured risk taking this way. Sometimes you gamble big, most times small, but if you’re a pro sports team with needs in the form of ever so human capital, gamble you must.

I will also point out.. how many times did we “fleece” other teams in various drafts, letting them take one good player while we moved down, stocked up on a bounty of draft picks only to realize 3-5yrs later it didn’t net us a whole lot, no matter how good the player taken by the other team ended up being. The Texans are doing good things and maybe the deal they made will pan out spectacularly to their benefit. That they landed on a QB is basically a lotto strike, good for them but it neither reflects their superior draft skills nor our negotiating inadequacies.

Last thing, outside of academics, zero is rarely the true final sum in any trade.

I hope the next 3 years are better with DW than the first 2. But regardless, we had to do something and we did. Baker, IMO, wasn't going to lead us to a Super Bowl. His skills were too limited.

Point, set and match in any conversation on the subject, in my opinion. And very well stated.

The last time Baker played here healthy he had us one Chad Henne jailbreak away (or one Rashard Higgins TD fumble for touchback away) from the play-in game to the Super Bowl. And that with you and me at DT and Jarvis Landry as his #1 WR.

Limited? Yes he is. Incapable of getting us deep into the playoffs? No one knows...but if he had a decent defense...we'd have played in the AFC Championship game that year....with Landry and Higgins at WR.

This year, I kept reading about how DW4 doesn't have to carry this team...just don't mess it up. About how he still wasn't comfortable in the offense that he and Ski were supposed to craft in the offseason. We already had THAT guy...plus picks and $$$. DW4 has to be better than that ^ ...otherwise this trade will be talked about just short of forever.

I really don’t think the Browns management and coaching staff factored in a J Cutler effect on Baker.

There was a time when people needed a new car so bad they had to do something. Some of them decided to purchase a Yugo.

Yes, report cards and employee evaluations should never be spoken of. Honest assessment of your current situation and how you arrived there is frowned upon. That's hilarious. It's not "anguish" or a "pointless self-misery exercise." It's evaluating where you stand at the current time on a trade that was made. It's assessing where you are in terms of ROI. You know, real world $#!+.

Wrong. Read it again. What he's saying is that how the other team benefits has no bearing on your situation, so it's pointless to worry about it.

Exactly. "Where you stand" has nothing to do with the other team. Analyzing from that POV is 100% loser mentality.

What is being lost in all of this. How many of the players assembled on this team came to the Browns because Watson was the QB? I have heard said by a few of our players that signed here as free agents they were excited to play with Watson. This part of the conversation is always left out by those writing their opinions with an agenda. Were 7-3. Enjoy it!!!

Your description of reality is hilarious! This is the tactic used when one only wishes to look at one side of the coin which by doing so throws objectivity out the window. Two teams are involved in a trade. To look at how that trade worked out your suggestion is that we ignore one side of it. Brilliant! lol

Ok since the trade

Browns 2022 (7-10) 2023 (7-3) = 14 - 10

Texans 2022 (3-13) 2023 (6-4) = 9 - 17

So far Browns seem to have had better side of the trade in wins and losses to this point.

The Texans have got from trade
Kenyon Green G - 823 snaps in 2022, 12 penalties and 4 sacks allowed and has not played in 2023.
Will Anderson DE - 33 tackles, 22 solo, 11 assisted, 3 sacks.
Dameon Pierce RB - 2022 220 carriers for 939 yards and 4 td's, 2023 109 carriers for 327 yards 1 TD

Deshaun Watson stats

2022 58.2 completion %, 1,102 yards, 7 td, 5 int's, 79.1 rating - 6 games - 3 wins and 3 loses.
2023 61.4 completion %, 1,115 yards, 7 td, 4 int's, 84.3 rating - 6 games - 5 wins and 1 loss.

Total = 12 games (8-4 record) 2,217 yards 14 td's to 9 int's 81.7 rating

I think the Browns are still slightly ahead with the Texans getting no real production from the 3 picks they got from the trade so far.

Watson will have played 11 out of 34 games at the end of his second season in Cleveland. It takes a lot of spin to change that. Everything else that has happened has nothing to do with that trade. But nice try.

He started 12 games. He is credited for playing in 12 games. Yes, he got hurt and did not finish the Indy game. Is that spin? Stats say he started 12 games for the Browns and the Browns have won 8 and lost 4 of those games. If the Interception counts from that game and the completion % counts for that game so should everything else involved. That is not spin that is stats. Those stats are exactly what he is credited for.

Okay, include a small portion of a game where he went 1-5 with 1 int. I don't think that helps your argument much. So you want to give him credit for winning that game? That's hilarious!

Maybe explain what "stats" are again? Have fun!

I took the stats posted right off a web site. Pit thinks he knows more than all of us and the web sites creators that have the stats posted. He is a piece of work for sure!!!

Do you give DW credit for the W in a game he went 1-5 with 1 int. before leaving early in that game with an injury? A game where the Browns scored 39 points which watson had nothing to do with?

Have fun!

Curious if you read the entirety of my original post, not just the quoted blurb? I suspect you haven’t, which is fine, whatever. Negotiations are never about objectivity. It’s about your very subjective self interests, isolated as much as possible against all distracting data and irrelevant considerations. As an outsider with no stake, perhaps you’re interested in objectivity. You can’t worry about the Texans. Or rather, you have to severely subordinate the interests of the other side. There are caveats of course, which I mentioned in my original post. But you’ll never do any trades if you worry you’ll accidentally benefit your trade partner. Plus, very few trade offs in this world are zero sum, where one side nets all the benefits the other nets zero, or they net them around the same time etc. This is one of the more classic ways people and organizations screw themselves up. They feel they need to be perceived to “win” a trade rather than execute a trade that’s necessary or important or just pencils out for them.

Now, it may come to pass that this works out to be a lousy trade for us. But the Texans’ net is not really part of the analysis.

I did read it. But when you trade with a team, their end of it is not irrelevant. To weigh the outcome of a transaction between two parties, you must look at the outcome on both ends of such a trade. Weighing the positives and negatives of any transaction weighs what each party gained or lost in that trade. For me to agree with you I would have to believe that what you gave up in actual assets holds no value as it pertains to a trade. I certainly do not believe that is true.

I'll give you an example. The Browns worked out a deal to get Brock Osweiler for 16 million. They ate 10 million of his guaranteed money in order to do that. Then they traded away Osweiler for a second round pick. Which means they actually put a dollar amount on the value of a second round pick. If a second round pick had a value of at least 10 mil. in 2017, what was the value of a first round pick in 2022? Then multiply that by three plus the other picks involved. That would give you a good idea of just how high the price was for watson.

So if you wish to leave the Texans portion of what they gained out of it, then you have to at least figure out what the actual price it cost the Browns for watson. Or should that too not be considered?

But any way you slice it, to know who got thew advantage of a trade, you have to look at both sides. We live in a results oriented society. I'm not sure how you can know who got the advantage in a deal if you don't look at the results of both sides. Your claim seems to be that you shouldn't go "into a trade" thinking that way. That doesn't mean your thinking turns out to be correct and the only way to know if it did or not is to look at all of the results.

The really interesting twist in all of this would be if the Browns go on to win it all this year.

mind = fried.
logic = illusion.

Fixed that for ya Purp.

It doesn't mean anything.

If Houston went and blew every one of the picks they received you wouldn't say we made the best trade ever. You would say Houston blew the picks.

Exactly, because what if we win it all without him when we brought him in because we felt we needed him to win it all.
We could have just built this defense sooner and been here.

Okay then, since they valued a second round pick at a minimum 10 mil. they ate in the Osweiler deal, how much was each of those first round picks they gave Houston worth? And many claimed giving up that 10 mil. for a second round pick was brilliant......

Brock Osweiler trade smart move by Browns' front office

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-brock-osweiler-trade-smart-move-by-browns-front-office

In 2017 that second round lick was valued at at least 10 mil. So what was a first round pick worth in 2022? Just multiply that by three and add the 230 mil.

I love how you try to spew that BS when I have been very supportive of not only this coaching staff but Berry as well in his overall performance as GM. I don't hesitate to point out when I think he's wrong but I also give him credit for when he's right. I have especially praised him for this past off season. But no matter how much it pains you to admit it, the price they paid for watson has been a disaster to this point.

That may well turn around over the next three seasons. There's no way to predict that. But the report card as of now is in and there's no doubt a parent teacher conference is in order.

It is odd how at times some posters claim "the game is won in the trenches" until they say something all together different.

However we win it so be it. I don't care if you're playing QB.

As for the defense, they were never going to be good with Woods.

They would never have been "Schwartz good".

Much closer to Anthony Schwartz good.

I think any time you improve your DL to help stop the run there will be "some improvement". But the biggest difference I see is that Schwartz used many of the very same players Woods had on the roster in ways that have played to their strengths. A prime example of that for me is JOK. Bone pimped him in the draft harder than anyone. I too want the Browns to draft him. His best assets that are the reasons he was pimped were squandered by Woods. There are certainly more examples such as how Woods used the CB's which were known for their man coverage and used a lot of zone. When you ignore playing to the strength of your roster the talent of your players never comes through. Schwartz knows how to maximize the ability of the roster. IMO hiring Schwartz is the best off season move the Browns made.

Yep. Delpit would be another. Most of these defensive picks were based on huge upside, then we told then to squat down and fit in a box.

8 wins 2 years
120 million

Essentially, Either the guy comes back and has 3 great years, or we were just on the wrong end of the worst trade in sports history. Compare it to the Rickey Williams trade or Herschel Walker trade, - They didn’t guarantee those guys that kind of money, plus, those guys gave their new employers at least some production. - All without dragging the name of the organization through the mud of allegations of sexual improprieties.

Compare this trade to the Mathew Stafford trade between Detroit and LA. That was a great trade for LA and is turning out to be a great trade for Detroit.

Now compare the Watson Trade. The Texans are in a great position while we look like a bunch of idiots as the guy was suspended for essentially a season and can’t stay healthy.

I digress but this has been a complete disaster.

This is depressing. I am choosing to think about the Mike Phipps to Chicago for the draft pick that got us Ozzie Newsome. I feel better already. Nothing I can do about the DW trade, just like there is nothing I can do about losses over the years caused by bad bounces, uncalled penalties, kicks that sailed right or left and dropped balls. I will watch the Jag game and hope we win, and next week will be better if we do.

When Andrew Berry gave up that kings ransom
For DeShawn Watson did even look Into if Watson
Had actual leadership skills?
That's kinda of Uber important when addressing
The QB position
Has Watson shown any traits of leadership in
His NFL career?

I thought that leadership was one of the things he was heralded for going back to Clemson.

I think the team plays for him even when he's playing poorly.

It's pretty evident the Texans took the Browns to the cleaners
On that trade for Watson. It might go down as one of the worst
Trades in the last 30 years

Are you trolling?

Sometimes even I think he is. But if you look at the results thus far based on the return on investment, unless there is some drastic turnaround it's hard at this point in time to say he's wrong. At the very least it ranks up there.

But waiting until the day after a heartbreaking loss to bump a 6wk old thread, just to repeat something already said, smells awfully trollish.

I hadn't considered it from that perspective.

I may be the lone remaining Mayfield fan but I don't think we had a QB problem...He was Injured his last year here and if anyone judges him on that, they smoking some bad weed......

J/C. If interested,check out this vid. Yeah DW was the worst trade in NFL history. Can’t argue against this notion. Horrible decision making by our fo. A true franchise killing trade.

I think you have you consider what the conceived problem was. Baker proved he could take a team to the playoffs when he was here. He has proven it this year although he is playing in a very weak division. But I don't think this owner and FO wanted to settle for that. They wanted a QB they felt could bring a SB to Cleveland.

Now people can certainly argue whether watson is such a QB or not. But that was the goal and the reason for the change at the QB position. I'm not convinced watson is that guy. By the end of year two I certainly anticipated seeing better results on the field from him. But thus far that has not transpired. The future however remains to be seen.

Point being is this owner and FO wanted a QB that was on the next level above Baker. So if you thought the problem they were addressing is that Baker stunk and that was the problem, I don't think that's it at all. I think they saw the problem as Baker not being a high enough quality of QB to lead this team to the SB. And I can't say that I disagree with them on that point.

If they wanted to go after a QB they felt was better, fine. IMO, no player is worth 3 first round picks. Has any of these big trades ever panned out for the team giving up that much? Only one I can recall in recent memory is RG3, and that didn't go so well for Washington.

I have certainly never advocated the price they paid for watson. As a matter of fact I think I was one of the most vocal detractors speaking out against the trade on multiple levels which included the price tag.

I liked Baker and wanted to draft him.

Not only all you said, I sensed a bit of a attitude between Baker and Stefanski when the whole shoulder thing came down.

I distinctly remember baker saying he was the only one who would decide if he plays or not...well, my feeling is the coach decides that, and all of that caused friction. When he finally left, things weren't good, and that didn't happen overnight. Something had been brewing for a good while.

I won't claim to know what was going on behind the scenes because I don't. I'll leave that type of pure speculation up to others.

That trade has not killed the franchise. Until the trade is complete, I don't know how it could be judged. We are only 2 years into a 5-year deal. So far Watson has gone 8-4 as the Browns starting QB. That is not terrible. I think many people just have an axe to grind with him because of his off the field issues. Getting rid of Baker was the right move. Quite frankly the Browns should have never drafted Baker. He was not a franchise QB. He will never be a Joe Burrow. The Bengals were in the process of passing the Browns with Baker at the helm and they did what they thought they needed to do. Was it the right decision? Still to be determined. If Watson continues to only play 6 games a year, then yes, the Browns trade will go down as a mistake. If Watson gets healthy and leads the team to winning a Division Title (Browns have not won a Division Title since 1990?) a Conference Championship Game (Again have not appeared in that game since 1990). It will be seen as a decent trade. A Super Bowl appearance will be a successful trade. The Browns have never appeared in a Super Bowl. If the Browns win a Super Bowl, then the Browns will have won the trade. That will not be determined until either the end of the Watson contract or if an injury ends his career. As long as he is playing for Cleveland the trade cannot be seen as a failure it is still to be judged.

Houston beat the Browns in the Wildcard game at Houston. They did what a team that hosts a playoff game is supposed to do. They also beat a Browns team that overachieved and won more games than they dd in the regular season after many devasting injuries. The game turned on the 2 pick sixes. A couple starting tackles and a healthy safety, and that game could have been different.

I could care less about Deshaun’s off field issues. If anything, I believe the guy that those women are a bunch of opportunists. However, that doesn’t take away from the fact that the team that we traded for Deshaun just mopped the floor with us with a rookie and a fraction of the assets that we gave them for Deshaun. Houston won that trade by a huge margin regardless of how anyone looks at it.

Deshaun is injury prone? Houston wins and we lose.

Deshaun is rusty? Houston wins and we lose.

Houston has a great young core and a bunch of our draft picks, while Deshaun struggles to get on the field? Houston wins and we lose.

As it stands right now, we should be the powerhouse and Houston should be rebuilding. However, Houston just blew us out by 31 and are advancing while we are,yet again, headed home. Houston wins and we lose.

Just live with it. This trade is a complete failure for our front office and also shows how much more competent Houston’s fo is than ours.

Just wait until we start losing good players because of Watson’s salary cap hit.


If nothing that I just wrote convinces you, ask yourself if we could undo the trade, would we? It’s a resounding yes.

Do you think Houston wins if the Browns had 2 competent tackles playing Saturday? It would have been a shootout because our defense did not play well. Roster vs roster, I believe the Browns are the better team in 2023. I don't think the Texans would have survived the injuries the Browns sustained and still won. Well see if that is still the case in 2024. They do have an emerging QB that they got because of their record and not from the Watson trade. They should be a hand full, but I expect the Browns to get better also. This team has a very good nucleus to stay competitive for a while. They need to improve their turnovers and stay healthy next year and it will be another fun year and hopefully end better. The sky is not falling as your post try to indicate.

I think it isn't all that much speculation. There was some friction in the building.

Baker overestimated his power and value within the organization, the organization grew tired of it, had an option to move in another direction, and took it.

Hard to argue with the organization’s thinking. Baker is s tough guy to like and rally around.

I don’t think the Watson trade is anywhere close to the worst trade in NFL history even if it doesn’t work. Not even close.

Nor is it franchise killing. Browns just made the playoffs and have most of the core returning next year.

And who cares about Houston. I will make a long term bet with anyone that Stroud will never have another season like this one again. NFL will catch up to him. That’s what the NFL does.

problem with your statement about houston surviving the injuries.. They actually led the league this year of players on IR.

With Watson I keep going back to Character. I think it shows up when a young man gets a huge contract seems to forget how to do his job.

Nothing proves my point more than bringing in Flacco, watching how a PRO does it. No Ego, just does his job.

I recognize that Flacco isn't the answer for us but at this point in his life, but he's the Prototype of the guy we should be looking for... Watson just doesn't fit that mold to me. fact is, neither does Baker.

Stefanski set the Browns back 5 years because of his ego and the stick up his butt about wanting Baker to play like this cerebral QB who also has a stick up his butt, when that's not him at all.

We gave up a #1 overall pick QB, a crap load of draft picks, and an unprecedented amount of money to pacify the coaches ego, so we could be worse.

Baker > Watson > Flacco

the trade doesn't matter

Hurts just got torched by Baker.

Watson makes us a better team. The end

I would love to see Baker with our current team.

This x100. We would be so much further along with baker and all the picks and cap. This just cements that our talent evaluation sucks.

Baker will be shut down immediately on the road by the Lions. Baker can give you a good game or two, but sadly he is not a franchise qb.

I still root for him regardless.

Prp....please check the site's security settings. Jimmy Haslam hacked DC's account!

For me one of the best and in my opinion most accurate posts about the trade.

I think there were other factors like Baker's immaturity and friction and eroded trust between BM and KS. And I also believe DW specifically was a Depo driven thing. when you look at the deep dive on DW Houston stats, it's a wet dream for an analytics guy. But that's 100% speculation on my part.

I was on board when we got Watson, but the whole thing looks terrible now. We ran Baker out of town for playing hurt, gave up all those picks and we are still in QB hell. I am rooting for Baker now. He deserved much, much better.

Lolz.

There were maturity and ego problems with both Baker and Stefanski, and one of them had to go. Stefanski got us to the playoffs 2 of his 4 years here and kept the players focused and motivated until the last game despite most of our starters being crippled. Baker flopped around the league and got into the playoffs by barely sqeaking to the top of the weakest division in the NFL, and won a home game against a team that was in total disarray the last half of the season. I think next season will tell us whether we made the right decision or not, as we'll see who can build on the successes achieved this year.

I like Baker. I have liked him since the 1st Jets game, where he came in and rallied the team to a win.

His last year here, he was hurt. His play reflected that. The year he left was mostly a lost year, as it seemed like he didn't fully recover until he got to the Rams. If he had stayed here, he still would have been out, because his play was not up to his normnal standards.

I would prefer that we still had Baker. People can say a lot of things about him, bujt the fact is that he proiduced at a high level, in a rebuilding year for Tampa, and for a team with a crap run game. He was 10th in passing yards, 12th in passer ratling, and 7th in passing TDS. He had an outstanding season.

We'll see if Watson can produce anything similar here. Heaven help us if he can't, because if he can't, this team will be set back horribly .... because they are married to him for another 3 seasons, at least. (and probably cap implications beyond that, as we have restructured him already.

Based on a choice between BM and KS and based on performance since BM left, I'd take KS. That's based on the reg season performance and the impact on continuity in the FO. At the time I might have chosen differently because of my concerns over KS. Independent of that, knowing we'd move on from BM .... I'd not choose DW then or now based on trade and salary.

Stefanski tired of Baker because Baker caused a split in his locker room. His personality drove Odell Beckham out of Cleveland. QB's should be players that other players rally around and not have divisions with. That was the problem. Baker has the arm talent. I don't think he always sees the field like elite QB's do. But in 2021 the Browns had a team that was talented enough to compete for a Super Bowl and the QB was involved in a team dividing squabble with his main pass catching target. Do you think Joe Burrow argues with Chase? That squabble cost the Browns the 2021 and 2022 seasons. This year was the first year since that the Browns were talented enough to compete for the Super Bowl. Injuries derailed this season. That is alot differnt than squabbles and division.

That assessment is probably true. The one thing that I noticed is our players seem to like DW and want to play for him. It’s just a matter of DW staying on the field.

personally I felt like the divorce between Baker and the team had to happen ... that relationship wasn't coming back

The ability of the Browns owner and front office to judge QB talent is a matter of record...among the worst in the NFL.

The Browns brain trust have done a better job of helping other franchises solve their QB issues than they have at strengthening the Browns #1 issue on offense going into next season.

Agreed 110%

Deshaun was a huge problem for Houston and they had to get rid of him. - In steps the Browns to relieve Houston of their problem and to also tack on multiple draft picks to make a one-sided deal even more one sided.

FF a couple years and look at that deal now. Houston has a franchise qb and multiple draft picks of their own and ours.

Houston is already further along in their development than us as they are playing next weekend and we aren’t. Houston killed us in this trade - and I don’t mean that figuratively. They killed this version of the Browns. Look no further than what they did to us last weekend. We aren’t going anywhere considering that we’ll always have to contend with other well developed teams in the afc. - Chalk this up to lack of depth - and chalk that up to lack of high draft picks.

Additionally, while we were courting Deshaun, we were also spitting on and looking to release Baker. And where is he now? Starting for a team that he led to a divisional title and going to the second round of the playoffs. -Just like Houston.

And where are we, sitting at home with even less qb security, less draft capital, and less salary cap space that we had when we traded for Deshaun.

It’ll sure be fun to watch both Houston and Baker play next weekend while our pathetic franchise jet sets on vacation. Great job by our fo. - Not.

If only Dorsey, The Doof, had drafted Josh instead of Baker.

To be fair, Houston got their franchise qb with their own pic because of their crap season in 2022 and Carolina stupidly choosing Bryce Young ahead of them. That would have happened whether we took DW or not, there were others in line to take him. Houston hit on their franchise qb, it had nothing to do with us. It remains to be seen if we hit on ours.

I agree. It's still funny when you think about it it (I did, watching Baker last night).


One QB playing next weekend is the one we should have drafted.

Another is the one we did, but things didn't work out (while many around here acted like his future was on the bench in the NFL).

A third is on his team as a result of a rebuilding franchise, that moved in the bulldozer when they traded their QB to us. And he just happens to be from tOSU... just to add insult to injury lol.

Yes, 24 evil, lying biotches and only watson is the beacon of truth. Not this tired old BS again.

Oh the fables and stories people sell themselves to make things sound better. Tampa Bay fans and their players seem to like and rally around Baker just fine. Never allow facts, or the lack of them in this case stop you though.

Sure enjoyed watching our old QB win a playoff game with his new team last night. Would be great to have a QB like that again.

We just had our third winning season in 23 or 24 seasons. We just made the playoffs for the third time in 23 or 24 seasons. Two of those happens while this imaginary egotistic Stefanski was coach.

If this is called setting us back, then please give me another helping of it. There’s a good chance I would get seconds and maybe thirds of that helping.

I'm pretty sure what you responded to was intended as satire. Not sure though.

Which part is a fable or story?

Which part of it can you back up with any facts other than your own opinion? That should answer your question. The only reported time Baker actually tried to use his power is when he demanded a trade. And that's after he knew the FO was trying to replace him. Name a player who doesn't want to move on after that? Only a player who doesn't want a chance to start elsewhere.

Yea, I would agree. However, Baker is involved so you can never be sure, lol

lol I laugh at people that think Dorsey isn't a good personnel guy. Literally 4 teams he's had a hand in made the playoffs with two of them still playing and the QB he drafted for us still playing.. I ask again.. Name the impact players we've drafted.. They LOVE dorsey in detroit. Baker wasn't the problem here, we had much bigger problems than QB when baker was here. We still have same problems

That's cool. He still arrived here with a King's Bounty, spent it frivolously, and still ended up with the wrong QB. Then proceeded to make the dumbest coaching hire in Browns history.

As some have pointed out Beckham never wanted to play in Cleveland and lMO, he did his best to stir the pot by dividing the Browns locker room by making Baker out as the source/reason for the Browns locker room issues.

LINK

Odell Beckham Jr. Makes Blunt Admission About His Trade To Browns

By Ernesto Cova January 16, 2024

Nonetheless, it seems like the LSU star was never comfortable in Berea, and that might be due to the fact that he never wanted to be there in the first place.

Talking on the “Punch Line Podcast”, the former Giants star recently admitted that he felt like the team had sent him to the Browns “to die” (via SN Ohio on Twitter).

The reason we lost is because Houston is reaping the benefits of Cleveland’s draft choices.

Irony. Karma.

bahahaha..,.says you. the QB he picked is still playing in the playoffs. and you want to talk about spending...take no further look than one Andrew Berry.. dude can't draft to save his life so he goes and spends in free agency and then squandered all our meaningful draft picks for the next 4 years for a QB that can't get on the field and when he does looks nothing like what they thought they were trading for

Is that you JD?

3 good draft picks, 3! That is all CLE had to show for during the Doof's time and the bounty of picks Sashi and company provided to him. Ward, Chubb, and Taki. The rest, hot garbage, or he traded them away for the glorious OBJ and Jarvis.

As for the QB he picked, JA's team is still in the playoffs, too.

He screwed the pooch that year, big time. He compounded it by choosing Kitchens as his head coach - LOL - really. Brilliant, Doof. Only thing worse than that was choosing Hue as HC, but that's on Jimmy.

I think people may wish to wait until they see the results of how this whole watson deal plays before they start pointing fingers at which guy sucks worse.

Baker is also on his 4th team and was benched for Sam Bradford at one point.

I root for Baker, but I'm also not pretending that he's something he's not. He's not here for the same reason he's not with the Panthers or the Rams. He's in the playoffs because he now plays in a WEAK division and carved up a vulnerable Eagles secondary (who were beaten by the Giants and the Cardinals in the previous 2 games). If your point is that Dorsey picked a QB who could look like a HoF'er against subpar competition and then hot garbage the next week (with a #1 pick), then you'd be right.

I would like to see if Berry did any better with the watson trade before I cast stones at Dorsey. Unless of course you're willing to say they both suck if the watson deal falls flat.

Baker led his team to 6 wins in their last 7 games and a Division Championship on a re-building team with 75 million in dead cap hit...all year long I read "just wait until Baker plays a 'real' team"...then he went out and whipped a pre-season SB contender and previous year SB team...but they were 'vulnerable'. Yeah they were vulnerable..and he carved them up.

Now he goes on to play the #1/#2 team in the NFC and if he doesn't prevail, the still-butt-hurt Buckeye fans will be here to tell us his ceiling is QB2. He's a 13-18 type QB...plenty to win a SB with something better than a re-building team in Cap hell with a defensive-minded head coach and a terrible OL and running game...and having just had the GOAT QB retire.

He's not here because we made a mistake...period. He was a one-year rental in Carolina and they were drafting a QB at #1...he was a few game rental for the Rams...destroyed a team in primetime on a decimated team after having arrived 4 days prior...and the Rams still had a SB-winning QB on a huge deal in Stafford. So 4 teams...yep...one foolishly couldn't figure it out with him...one wanted a bridge AND HE WAS TRADED THERE...the 3rd team already had a FQB and the 4th team just won their division with him. My goodness that argument is as lazy as the people who compared Baker to Manziel.

Here's a trend to consider with Baker:

Yet another new coach and in COVID fog he made the playoffs and even won a game with 'some guy named Blake' at LT...then was one Chad Henne jailbreak away from the AFC Championship game;

Then started the first 1.3 games on fire and destroyed his non-throwing shoulder...but gutted it out anyway...what a douchbag;

Has surgery then was back-stabbed and traded to one of the worst teams in the league that was sure to draft a QB the first chance they get...then was rented to finish out the year with a team that had the FQB;

Then goes to a re-building team and wins the division and a playoff game.

What a turd.

Imagine that unwanted QB on this team with (3) 1st Rd picks plus whatever other picks and 200 million of cap space. They/we need DW4 to make us forget that^...even though many already have.

Lastly, this isn't about Baker the person...insert any name you want into an example like THAT ^ and tell me what people would conclude.

When Baker found out the Browns were talking to Watson

Baker asked to be traded

Baker could have stayed with the Browns

Watson would have had to beat out Baker for the starting job

I just wonder if Baker didn't ask to be traded, if the Browns would have given Watson that money

If Baker said bring him in I'll beat him out for the job

Wonder how the Browns would have reacted

It's done and over with and it's every individuals feelings on this matter

Like Baker , Don't like Baker he's doing the Bucs a good thing now

What I don't like about the NFL, they take most QBs who are very successful in how they play

And want to change them into something they are not

Let Baker play how Baker likes to play and his playing abilities and drive will win games

Like what Tampa is letting him do now

I'm a Buckeye fan and Baker planting the flag has no impact on how I feel about him

It's who he is, and there are many athletes in every sport that I like and don't like

There have been plenty of Browns players I didn't like and when they moved on to another team

I still didn't like him. If you like Baker fine, if you don't like him fine

Nothing any of us can do, we are just fans with opinions and different personalities

Sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't

All I know is the team has Watson now, like it or not

All I can do is hope for the best and that he proves to be worth the trade

Whether he does or not time will tell

Until then.

I like Baker and it’d be cool if he went deep with the Bucs, but he has limitations. Then again, DW has a few, also. 😂
Such as limited availability.

But. The trade was made, we thought we were getting a great QB. So there ya go, can’t do anything about it now. If Watson blows chunks next year, it will go down as worst trade ever.

I'm still waiting for him to play a real team. Those 6 wins came against the Panthers x2, the Falcons, the Jags and Eagles (who were both falling apart at the seams), and the Packers (who would be the only team coming close to an argument here). Prior to that they beat the Saints, Bears and Titans. When he did face a real team....Lions, Bills, Niners, Texans, he lost.

I like Baker.....and other players who really seem to enjoy playing the game. I just don't think he can be consistently good against quality competition, and I'm glad he's not a Brown..


,

This.

And it came up again on Carmen and Lima. Baker was not universally liked in the locker room. Carmen went so far to say that he was told players felt like Baker was a me guy.

Hard to build a culture you are seeing now on the Browns when the QB is viewed that way.

j/c

Here's the point:

Go back to my last post...change the words 'Baker' to 'Dave'...there is no way to rationalize dumping Dave for what, when, why they did. It's not the person...it's the player.

Oftentimes in the workplace, not everyone 'likes' their co-workers...I imagine the NFL is no different...especially those in leadership positions.

Every team in the NFL is real. Now we want to bag on Dave because in those 6 of 7 games he lead his team against only one playoff team they beat = Packers...who just beat the pants off the Cowboys in Dallas...and suddenly beating the Eagles in the playoffs doesn't 'count'. C'mon man.

We beat Clayton Tune. Trevor Simien and Case Keenum and other trash teams and our HC is a COY candidate...but Dave wins 6 of 7 and a playoff game and he's trash.

Butt-hurt Buckeye fans...if you aren't one, I'm not talking to/about you...you already know who you are.

How about butt hurt Browns fans that thought we had a team that could compete for the Super Bowl in 2021 and Baker and his childish fits caused strife and division in the locker room and drove OBJ out of town. You're starting QB should not be causing strife and division. I am glad Baker, and his Bucs won a playoff game. Hopefully he has grown up. He sure got humbled last couple years. I like our team now better without him. He was never worthy of the #1 overall pick and proved it with his time here.

...and who the hell was stirring the pot (in the locker room) behind Baker's back..?

The ..."ultimate me-me-me guy"... who wanted out of Cleveland from day one when he learned he had been traded to the Browns..a fact that he finally admitted in an interview recently.

OBJ did all he could to stir up and divide the Browns locker room and the dumbass Browns management chocked it all down as just honest talk from a wise ole NFL vet who was most concerned about helping the Browns win. OBJ had his agenda #1 and was willing to do all he could to help himself get out of Cleveland.

Just look at the number of people OBJ used to achieve his goal of getting out of Cleveland...the entire Browns locker room, the Browns coaching staff, the Browns owners and management, King James, ESPN talking head smith...the all had a hand in promotimg OBJs version of what was going on in Cleveland and with Mayfield.

...and Mayfield knew what was going on and he knew he could not trust OBJ.

All the negative comments and opinions made it easier for the anti-Mayfield gang to jump on the OBJ bandwagon that made Mayfield out as the guy dividing the Browns locker room and Mayfield was such a problem player...

...YOU ALL GOT CONNED BY OBJ

Another brilliant move by The Doof.

Trading a 1st, 4th, and Peppers for that crap show. The Ultimate Me guy - spot on Mac. But hey, he was a real team player - please. All about himself, always has been, always will be.

I see this and I hear this. But the Browns weren't trying to get watson to have a QB competition. Watson was going to cost a fortune any way you look at it and everyone knew it. You don't compete to make that deal unless it's a clear sign to upgrade the QB position and everyone knew it. And most certainly Baker knew it.

So if you were Baker, where would that leave you? Your employer made it plain to you they didn't think you're good enough. They're looking to replace you with any legitimate opportunity they can find. Would that look like the best opportunity for you to stay in? At the very least Baker has proven he's an average starting NFL QB. That means he would have been an upgrade to at least half of the NFL teams out there. That would give him at least a good opportunity to start on half the teams in the NFL.

So what would you want to do? Stay with a team that has proven they have no confidence in you and are looking to replace you? Or try to get on a team where you would have an opportunity to be the clear cut starter? Because as much as fans look at it from a fans standpoint, the NFL is a career for these players. One with a very tight timeline and they won't be within playing age for long in the grand scheme of things. For their family and long term financial future, they have to make the most of that opportunity. From that standpoint I would have done exactly what Baker did.

As much as fans want players to have team loyalty, their first and foremost loyalty should lie with their family and their families financial future. As it should with us all.

I'm kind of in the middle. And I'll be clear, I'm a Mayfield fan because he's an underdog and very easy to cheer for. Love the dude, love to watch him win. Is he a great QB? Nope. Could he have won a championship here? Yep -- this year! (Mostly joking, but definitely a possibility)

Now obviously no one is privy to behind the scenes, but it's evident that he was a big douche during the injury and thought he could dictate when he would play. Even going so far as saying something about "talking to his people" concerning the injury. I feel like he thought he was the commodity and the Browns had no hope without him... he got a career-changing wake up call.

Him penning his 'goodbye' as soon as the Browns got on the plane was petulant child material. It was also rather cold and calculated in the respect that he knew that would cost us a bundle when the other 31 knew he would refuse to play here.

Did I expect "I have no problem with the organization doing it's due diligence to explore all possibilities, that's what makes good teams better. Am I little hurt and offended? Sure. But I'm a big boy and we'll get through this". ??

Nope. But I didn't expect a middle finger and someone pooping on the floor on the way out either. Hey, that's part of what makes him tick, and everyone's different. I can promise you: we could all sign an apology letter, beg him to come back and offer him the sun, moon and stars to do so... his reply would be an arrogant smirk and a firm "no thanks". That's just who he is, and I actually kind of admire it as much as I hate it.

That's another way to look at it and a lot of people do. But consider this, Stefanski may very well have saw that there was no structural damage to Baker's shoulder and left it up to him whether to play or not. None of us will ever know one way or the other about that. But the bottom line is that the HC makes the call on who starts and who doesn't. If Stefanski thought Baker should sit while allowing him to play, it would be a sign of very poor leadership on Stefanski's part to allow Baker to dictate that.

And you may see it as him acting like a petulant child in regards to him demanding a trade. I can see why you would. But I think that's more of fans perspective than looking at it from the business side. If I knew my employer was attempting to replace me I would want to work somewhere that I felt my talents would be more appreciated and I would have a better opportunity to showcase those talents. I would be thinking of my financial future and that of my family more than the Browns since the Browns were also thinking of replacing me for what they felt was best for their future.

That's one place I suppose causes my point of view to be different than others. During my working career I knew that employers wanted the best man for the job at the cheapest price they could pay. That's not something I see as being evil or anything. That's the very objective of a business to maximize their profits anywhere they can. Businesses that conduct things otherwise would be foolish IMO.

I on the other hand wanted to make the most possible money and benefits for my talent. That's what's best for my family and myself. I never felt obligated to give my employer more loyalty or consideration than they had shown me. I always considered life a two way street.

If I had known at any point in time I was working for someone who was looking to replace me, I would have been immediately been looking for a new job. And I would have jumped on the first good opportunity I found. Otherwise I would have been getting a pink slip as soon as they found that replacement with no job to go to while their business wouldn't have skipped a beat. Someone in that case would have ended up being the loser and I would have done what I felt was necessary so it wouldn't be me. That's just the nature of business. Maybe that's the reason we feel differently about this situation.

Wow, can this be any more of a hypocritical? Watson has missed 23 3/4 games since he signed his contract. Mayfield played injured for 15 weeks in 2021 yet he was deemed unsatisfactory to take the team to a Super Bowl. With Watson though, he's a God and talk is if he had played the Browns would have won (nothing but a wild guess and pure speculation). Watson has only played 11 and 1/4 games of 35 since coming to the Browns. You talk about locker room strife, what the heck do think went on in that locker room when those players were be constantly barraged with talk about Watson's scum filled actions off the field?

Better team - prove it! Playing or not, the two years preceding Watson the Browns were 20-15 that included a playoff appearance through the second round with Baker on the team. The next 2-years with Watson on the team, the Browns are 18-17 including a 1 game playoff appearance.

In fact, the Browns in 2024 would need to be 12-5 during the regular season and 1-1 in the playoffs minimum to finally achieve a higher win percentage .574 during Watson's tenor with the Browns compared to Mayfield's win percentage when he was with the Browns during the Stefanski years (.571).

Now, Mayfield is gone, and that boat has sailed. The point is that when people try to point out the Browns are better than they were before, that's a false assumption because you are only as good as your actual record portraits. You have the option of thinking they are better, hoping they are better or praying they are better but as of today, the total records tell a different story. Over the last 4 years 2020-2023, the Browns have accumulated the worst record in the AFC North. The Browns are also the only team to not win an AFC North title not only the last 4-years but ever. A side note, there has been 33 HC changes since the 2020 season. Of the 10 teams that have not sought out another coach during that time period, Stefanski's Browns have the lowest win percentage of the 10. Overall, the Browns are 14th in win percentage over the last 4-years meaning there are 4 teams above them that have changed coaches since 2020. Of the 18 teams directly below the Browns in win percentage, the Cleveland Browns are the only team of 19 that has not changed HC's (14 - 32 ranked) since 2020.

You may be interested in which teams ranked above the Browns in win percentage who have also changed HC's since 2020. That list includes: (4-year rank is by win pct) 4th - Tampa Bay (2022), 10th - Miami (2022), 11th - Philadelphia (2021), and 13th - New Orleans (2022).

Yeah, there are two sides, and all your points are valid. I guess I started by saying "I'm in the middle" without actually saying I agree with most of your first post... I just went on to point out the other side of the coin and failed to state that my "middle" is easily being able to understand and agree with everything else as well.

And yeah, for most of us, there is a very delicate balance in gauging loyalty given vs loyalty received... and knowing the warning signs. Taking care of #1 is only selfish if you make it that way. Imagine being in a biz where the average career is like 3.5 years.

The only one who sounds butt-hurt right now is you.

Again, I have nothing against Baker. I'm rooting for him. I just think people make him out to be something he's not.

I don't follow the Eagles. They started the year on a tear and at some point during the season they started falling apart. The past couple games prior they've managed to lose to the Seahawk, Cardinals, and split with the Giants. Yikes.


So if your statement win is against a team that's recently been playing like that... I dunno.

If Baker plays well and/or wins vs the Lions, I will gladly eat crow. I'll be rooting for him to do well.

I just believe that people need to remember that football is the ultimate team sport. While people make fun of old sayings often times they apply quite well. I'll give you one such example....

It's hard to soar with Eagles when you work with a bunch of Turkeys.

j/c...

I'll say one thing. The pissing contests over what kind of season Baker had (is still having) are funny to read. If I told you the Browns QB had 4000yds at 65%, 28 and 10 this year... you'd be pretty damned excited (and probably still have a reason to be this Sunday)... until I told you I forgot the word "former". Then you would know you're from Cleveland lol.

Whining about his competition is silly, it's any given Sunday more than ever before. The same dude threw for 381 and 4 TD with a perfect 158.3 just five weeks ago against Green Bay... they're in the playoffs and just knocked off Dallas. But oh wait, their defense sucks. The Browns defense is great... they just got smoked by a rookie QB, with a rookie coach, on a team that snuck in at 10-7 on the final day of the season. Any. Given. Sunday.

This season he landed on the front porch of filling Tom Brady's shoes. Hell, one of our now-absent football gurus was beating the drum that the Bucks were purposely tanking the day they signed him -- and he meant it. Since then he's put up the numbers I posted, is about to start his 19th game (he's started 30 of 32 since he left), and has battled all year in a way that would make even Pat Shurmur proud. And oh yeah, don't think the offense isn't on Mayfield's back... the Bucs have seen an RB rush for 100 twice this season... 100 and 102, to be exact.

So yes, it wasn't perfect out of the gate. Baker still has those moments, it's not all glamour, and sometimes it can be ugly as hell. But of their first seven losses, five were to playoff teams. Since then Mayfield and the Bucs have won 6 of 7 including payback in a revenge playoff matchup for an early season loss to the 'September version' of the Eagles.

And no, I'm not saying Baker is a great QB. Not even close. Not saying that... just saying. No offense to anyone, but if you can't tip your cap to that, it's on you.

No matter how hard you campaign to fire KS. It is over. He is our head coach and will remain our head coach.

He is backed by Haslam and Berry.

Everybody who covers football is aware of the job KS did this year. If you knew anything about what coaching really is you would see that.

So no matter how hard you keep banging your drum. It falls on deaf ears.

Kevin Stefanski is the Browns head coach.

When I see supporters, no matter what team they support, being extremely negative, to put it mildly, against one of their ex players there’re often other tangible’s behind their dislike then just sporting reasons.

Most Houstons supporters that I see comment about Watson thinks he was a very good QB when he played for the Texans but don’t like his personality and what he has done in his private life and that’s from my perspective understandable.

I can understand those who don’t like a character like Mayfield. He’s has a special personality with his sometimes a bit cocky confidence and that he’s not afraid to show off. I personally like it and I have always like strong personalties who’s not afraid to show who they are.

A suspects some of you Americans probably never heard of a Swedish hockey player in the seventies named Juha Widing. LA Kings. He single handily challenged the whole Philadelphia Flyers A-team with Dave The Hammer Schultz & Co on a fight by tapping his hockey club in the air in front of their face and then drop his gloves in the middle of Philadelphia Forum. That guy has balls of steels. Extremely strong personality, mediocre player, loved by many and hated by more but God o God I would like to have that guy in my team, if not just for the pure entertainment. He was a typical player that you loved when he was with your team but you would probably hate him with passion when he represented an opponents team. I see similarities between him and Baker when he was playing in Oklahoma and the clip under this text. Totally no fear whatsoever of consequences. Maybe some of you haven’t forgot what he did and that play a part in those who disliking in him. It’s understandable because that was bold.





Going strictly by stats and results the Browns 2020 team was better than our 2023 team. Baker was in my opinion the catalyst, the front face and the leader of that team. Hate or love him but I can’t deny that with him we were more fun to watch. Those who dislike him do it for other reasons than what he contributed from his arrival to that win over the Steelers. After his injury he was a sitting duck because Berry and Stefanski had already made up their mind.and Right now the Bake and Shake show has moved on by winning more playoffs games and his old Brown team is still back where they where when he left.

Excellent posts friends.............

Oh please. Spare me the "sitting duck" b.s. He was the same rooster strutting around like he owned the place after the injury. He just forget there were bigger cocks in the fight. He found out in a hurry.

You're not really one of us. Sorry. You were stumbling through your sports life and found this team "by chance"... because you fell in love with Baker. The day he left started your hatefest. It gets tiring. Most of us have been changing the diaper of this petulant child for decades, you haven't even seen it pee the bed yet.

And the longest thread on the Houston fan board is the one that's been dissing Watson and the Browns since the day he left. Your 'perspective' must be pretty limited, you may not want to use it to belittle 'us'.


Sorry guys. I didn't mean to spark this crap.

Oh, God. Can we just delete my Baker post. I didn't really mean it, I don't know what I was thinking. I feel like that other Jimmy now.

You started it and now you're gonna have to fix all of this.

Good luck.

"Alright, listen guys, I've started a TicToc called "Baker Baker Touchdown Make You Long Time". It's in Bangkok, so we'll all have to relocate, but it's going to be so much more fun than this forum full of homers and haters!"





(There, now I'm sure I've offended everybody in less than five posts)

I love BKK awesome city. So you have my attention.

LMAO ! you prophet

Memphis is 100 %

You gotta fix it !

Did you lose your temper or why do you use personal insults and attack someone on a supporter forum?

Great post my friend. There's nothing in that post that is inaccurate.

No need to recant and wish you hadn't posted it and no need to respond to any/every post that derails several very good posts in this thread by several about BM and the state of the Browns. Honestly "somewhere in the middle" is where we should all be if we could be neutral about it. What I get from your post - Baker's not trash like many want(ed) to proclaim - and he's not a top 10-12 QB in the NFL either.... and as ever Folks who don't like Baker will manipulate the narrative to criticize whatever success he has - be it winning a playoff game in Pittsburgh, throwing 24 completions in a row to beat Cinci, or still being in the playoffs January 2024. Pointing that out doesn't make you a rah rah Baker fanboy.

You're not supporting the team when you've had a hatefest with the entire FO since Baker left. You're not supporting our forum when you (inaccurately) compare us to Houston fans supporting Watson. With that said, what I posted was rude, and I apologize.

It's ok FATE, accepted and we all have our bad days. Trust me I'm not a saint in that regard.

I'm not from Cleveland and I live in Scandinavia but that doesn't reduce my support for the Browns, but liking a team doesn't mean I support every decision or every FO/coaching staff. Like players - they come and go.

Secondly, for personal reasons, I deeply disliked the decision to trade Watson, Baker's future had nothing to do with that.

You can go back and check my initial post when I first heard the news about we were interested in a serial abuser and my feelings are still the same.
You can also check my initial thoughts about Andrew Berry and why I had so much hope for him as out new GM but after his handling with Baker and his contract when he acted like a dirty politician and his press conference when he introduced Watson he sold his soul and made himslef unlikable for those of us who supported these women in Houston, many of them with a similar skin color as Berry.
Either stand up and take accountability and admit winning is everything, even if you trade a scumbag, but don't f*ck*ing act like you care for these women or women in general when your actions says otherwise. That made me lose confidence in a important part of his leadership.

The same goes for Stefanski. First he letting his own player be brutally attacked by the best edge rusher in the league to the extend that it can be a career threatening injury, then go behind his back like a snake when he and Berry searching for replacements. They could both have done this much better by being more transparent and honest in their actions. It's no charm being a snake and sell out employees, even if you dislike them and want to get rid of them asap.

Both Berry and Stefanski can occasionally be excellent in their job but everything surrounding Watson was a huge f'ck 'p and the two recent seasons results supports my initial skepticism. You don't change the color of a Zebra and pretend that it's something else because with or without the stripes it's still a Zebra.

But you're right I have to cool down with my critismn. Its not healthy and it's boring for all in the end. Apologize for that and hope you and others can give me some slack and forgiveness for being so critical and used unneccessery space meant to other topics.

"The same goes for Stefanski. First he letting his own player be brutally attacked by the best edge rusher in the league to the extend that it can be a career threatening injury, then go behind his back like a snake when he and Berry searching for replacements. "

This statement is total garbage.

This is football not a mugging on the street. "Brutally attacked?"

KS coaches the roster built by Berry.

Your speculation about Baker and his leaving is nothing more than dramatization of something you have no verifiable knowledge of.

One thing nobody can take away from Baker is how clean that slide was.

I can still watch that on repeat.

Yep. Next level lol.

That game is among my favorite in Browns history. Both teams 8-3. Do we belong? Vrabel stuffed eight in the box and dared Mayfield to throw the ball... 290 yds and 4 TD in the first half. 38-7 at halftime.

Then we were outscored 28-3 in the second half and only won by 6. We also had a 41-14 point lead on the Cowboys after the 3rd qtr and allowed them to pull within 3. All those games were exciting, lol.

You know how it goes when you let off the throttle in this league. I don't seem how any team ever does. "Hey guys, let's switch to the grind it out offense and the play if safe defense."

While it looks ugly and sometimes teams pay the rice for it, I think it's a strategy based on analytics.

Let’s agree to disagree.

I have more than 30 years experience in management so I take your view quite lightly and I trust more my own eyes and conclusions after listening to both side of the story.

Let’s leave Baker now because I agree with FATE it’s boring. My bad. I should have stopped earlier.
The Browns season is over with all the good and bad memories so let’s move on and focus on the future.

Only someone with blind bias would think an 11-6 season while being forced to play 4 different starting QB's would be bad memories.

Anyone complaining about this season is nuts. Sure the playoff loss sucked, it was brutal. This season was actually fun, I go to almost every home game, I’ve spent God knows how much over the past 20+ years waiting for a season like this. 8-1 at home, almost ever game was FUN TO BE AT! Other years I think I could have burnt 10k in my driveway and would have had a better time. I’m hesitant to say we are building something here, but for the first time in, well, forever I feel like we are. The negativity surrounding this season from some posters is mind boggling to me. I’m actually looking forward to next season for once.

Analyst rips Browns for how they replaced Baker Mayfield with Deshaun Watson

By Zac Wassink | Last updated 1/19/24
link

Former NFL quarterback and current NBC Sports football analyst Chris Simms ripped the Cleveland Browns for the way they handled current Tampa Bay Buccaneers signal-caller Baker Mayfield after Mayfield played through a serious injury to his non-throwing shoulder while with the Browns during the 2021 season.

"Baker got screwed over by the Browns — there’s no other way around it," Simms told Ryan Dunleavy of the New York Post for a piece published Friday. "He played with a hurt shoulder for a year [2021] and didn’t play great. They used that against him and then went out and tried to get Deshaun Watson without letting him know. He cancelled them out, then they realized, 'Oh, we’ve upset him. Now we have no quarterback. We have to finally get Deshaun Watson.'"

It was reported in March 2022 that Mayfield requested to be traded by the Browns after they initially failed to acquire Watson from the Houston Texans. ESPN's Jake Trotter noted at that time that "Mayfield and his camp learned about the Browns' meeting with Watson over social media."

Of course, the Browns eventually convinced Watson to relocate to Cleveland by giving him a historic fully guaranteed five-year, $230M contract. The club later traded Mayfield to the Carolina Panthers in July 2022.

Cleveland made Mayfield the first overall pick of the 2018 NFL Draft, and he guided the Browns to a playoff win at the division-rival Pittsburgh Steelers in January 2021. Mayfield more recently found new life for his career with the Buccaneers and will lead that team into this Sunday's divisional playoff game at the Detroit Lions.

Whatever happens this weekend, Mayfield will end the ongoing postseason tournament with more career playoff victories (two) than Watson (one).

"I think they are dangerous this weekend," Simms said about a Buccaneers team listed by DraftKings Sportsbook on Friday afternoon as a 6.5-point underdog against the Lions. "I think they match up really well with Detroit. If you ask me to pick one upset that could happen this week, it would be this one."

Simms isn't the only noteworthy analyst convinced Tampa Bay has a realistic chance to upset the Lions at Detroit's Ford Field.

If Mayfield clears the lions and goes to the championship round or all the way to the Super Bowl, then we need to bitch about it… but him having the success he has had in Tampa proves he wasn’t as bad as his neigh sayers like to believe. As a matter of fact, WE TRADED A FRANCHISE QB to get Watson, there is no other way around it. And we were fleeced. At least, as of now.

https://tea-biz.com/tea-price-report/china-tea-price-watch-april-21-2023/

I just love to watch people fall for click bait like you did with that opinion piece you posted. But please don't expect the rest of us to.

pit..why do you insist on burying your head in the sand and attempt to shape all Browns news as if you know better that others.

I will say this, I think Sims likely has better sources for his version of events than some biased Browns fan who is unwilling to consider only those opinions they agree with.

Sims is one of the few journalists who isn't afraid to step the toes of franchise owners and front office types who try to BS the media to cover up for their inept management. I welcome varied opinions knowing that some would rather cover their ass and lie to media and fans, knowing that many are simply followers and so easy to con.

Holy crap. Totally off-topic, but after watching that Mayfield slide video I just decided to see what Hollywood has been up to.

0 catches
0 yards
9 snaps

... since he left Cleveland two seasons ago.

I love Baker. He got a raw deal here. I hope he succeeds whereever he plays.

Reflect a little bit before jumping on the tangent board but let's go back in time a bit...

We lost Chubb to a horrific, in some cases a career threatning injury, that's bad memories in my book.
We lost other important players to injuries that reduced our chances to win against the Texans. Other memories I don't like.

Whatever my personal feelings is with Watson we lost our most important player in a really bad moment of the season, that's also a disappointment because at the end of the day I want the Browns to win no matter who plays.
Our successful defense delivered their worst game in the most important moment of the season and I had high hopes before the playoff that we could win something, WTF do you call that?
Flacco throw two turnovers as he usually does when he's stressed, Oh my God that was fun, columbusdawg, I cheered all the way when the Texans run into the end zone after that play because of a combination of stupid play calling (overusing of throws) and Flacco being Flacco, something an experienced OC or HC should have calculated in their game plan that could happen with his history and the stats from his few games with us. Another great memory, boys! Smiles all over I suspect...

Our whole team underperformed grossly in the second half in Houston and Stefanski looked totally outcoached and out of ideas, I don't know with you guys, but for a COTY candidate, I'm a little bit disappointed because if he that good at least something could be done a little bit better in my book, but hey boys, what a f'ck*ng nice way to end that season. I'm totally convinced that both of you where so happy and danced all the way to the bed that night.

I have said this before there's no good excuses after a loss. Your player on the field is your best players available and a HC has to deal with what he has. Stefanski didn't have any answers that afternoon but despite that, I can still be disappointed and feel sorry for him from a personall standpoint that his options was limited. You know sometimes you can keep two thoughts in your head at the same time. Separate an understanding of what went wrong and what's fair when being critical of the gameplan.

Maybe you two should try this. Focus on one memory first, for example be happy about our 11-6 season, then remember our injuries, the Watson debacle, our loss in Houston, and after that come back to me and tell me how that felt. Great huh?

Context matters.

What you do not recognize is what was achieved with what we had.

You act like injuries need to be blamed as a team failure.

What you have said before perhaps matters to you. It means nothing to others.

Your interpretation of the season and for that matter the Browns in general. Is all in your mind. It is not a shared experience.

And Hollywood was the 2nd best WR on that playoff team...with Jarvis as the #1 WR. Cover your eyes when you see what Jarvis' stats were after that playoff year.

Which is exactly what shock journalism looks like. Say controversial things that fly in the face of logic to get clicks on the internet.

When someone totally ignores context it's easy to see.

What I saw was a season that changed the culture of this franchise. Since 1999 every time this team looked like they were ready to compete and would have bad things happen the team would fold and not recover. This team overcame each and every injury and found a way to make the playoffs. They turned Cleveland Browns Stadium into a real home field advantage.

Teams that lose lead the league in turnovers don't normally make the playoffs. The Browns did. Teams that lose their top offensive weapon (Chubb), their QB (Watson), their top 3 tackles, and 3 safeties for the season usually don't make the playoffs. The Browns did. Why this team changed the culture of the franchise.

I enjoyed this season as frustrating as it was with all of the injuries more than any season since the return. This team beat both teams that won the home field in the AFC and NFC playoffs. It felt like the late 80's again by the lake. At least it did for me.

YEP, this season felt GREAT! A team coming together. Did the playoff loss suck, yes, still doesn’t change that we had a great season. I don’t focus on one, or a few, players, I focus on the whole team and wins. I focus on if I had FUN watching the games on TV and in person. We’ve spent almost a quarter of a century waiting to have a TEAM, darn right I had fun and found the season amazing! Injuries happen, we just had more than normal. To me, the jury is still out so I don’t view Watson as a “debacle” yet so that has no bearing on how I view the season. He was 4-1 when he played and we don’t beat the Ravens without him, I’ll wait to have any judgement until further evaluation.