DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Israel at war continues.

Thanks for a very good post - I have no problem with you or anyone and everyone having different opinions. I expect it. I agree none of us are responsible and merely coommenting on and offering our opinions.

That said - not sure how or why you leap to assuming I am "that emotional" .... I'm simply poinging out the same thing that I have since the begining. That is the fact that innocent women and babies and children of all ages are being slaughtered through what appears to be deliberate excercise in retubution by Isreal. Oct 7th does not justify breaking of international law, the displacemenbt of 1.8 million civilians, it doesn't warrant depriving medical supplies, food and water to the region - genocide if you want to go that far, or simply the deathis of nearly 20,000 mostly innocents of which most are women and children. I've posted about that. . . . and now I've posted how 153 other Nations who initially showed support for Isreal are now saying that have crossed the line. It took them too long - but that's where we are.

You can continue to offer different opinions - that's no problem. I'm not drowing you or anyone else out or asking you to stop posting.

The fact is, as long as Hamas holds innocent hostages, Israel will continue the mission of trying to free them at all costs. They’ve said so. So has Biden.

Which begs to question where are those hostages? Does Israel think Hamas is hiding them in the tunnels they are now flooding with sea water? In the residential areas they are indiscriminately bombing? It appears Israel itself are taking huge risks at killing the very people they claim they are trying to rescue.

And I haven't seen anyone on the board say Israel shouldn't be trying to continue freeing those hostages. For that matter I haven't seen anyone say they shouldn't destroy Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization who brutally attacked Israeli citizens and committed atrocities to humanity while doing so. I don't think that's any part of the issue being raised. The issue is that taking out retribution on the civilians of Gaza isn't a reasonable way to accomplish that goal. It doesn't further that goal at all. Committing atrocities against civilians in Gaza is the exact same thing Hamas did in Israel. The difference is Israel is using bombs at accomplish it.

And Biden, along with many leaders and nations around the world agree with that. I'm not sure how anyone can equate killing innocent civilians on purpose with freeing those hostages. They are not the same thing.

Biden’s allies in Senate demand that Israel limit civilian deaths in Gaza as Congress debates US aid

https://apnews.com/article/congress-israel-gaza-aid-sanders-a760c44986e5381b146d370cada95b52

Bernie Sanders calls for end to Israeli strikes and killing of thousands

In his strongest words in the 30-day war, Vermont senator demands end to killing of ‘innocent men, women and children’

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/05/bernie-sanders-israeli-hamas-war

And remember, Bernie himself is Jewish.

This isn't some anti-Israeli issue. It's an issue of the methods Netanyahu has decided to use in this war.

Hamas isn’t talking, so they can be anywhere. Anyways Hamas has never been compliant or held accountable to any world order to stop lobbing ballistic rockets into Israel have they? If it wasn’t for the iron dome the body count in Israel would be a lot higher than it is.

So is that some kind of excuse for Israel targeting innocent Civilians in Gaza? Is that a reason that gives Netanyahu an excuse for exacting his pound of flesh on civilians that had nothing to do with the attack on Israel? It seems you are conflating the very things I pointed out that were clearly different.

There is destroying Hamas and there is targeting civilians. In simplest terms soldiers can identify their targets and kill the enemy. Bombs destroy everything in their path. Having destroyed over 40% of residential housing in Gaza it's quite clear who much of the target is and it's not Hamas.

It seems as though you also think that while on one hand you claim that Israel, "will continue the mission of trying to free them at all costs", while on the other hand admitting it may be Israel who is actually killing those hostages themselves.

Its the reality of waging war. Israel and their government will surely be punished more than Hamas after the dust settles.

Wasn’t assuming you were emotional, I was saying that about anyone who feels the need to be hateful for no reason.

No, it's selectively deciding to kill far more civilians in order to inflict revenge while waging war. There are certainly ways of defeating Hamas without inflicting so many civilian casualties. It's a conscience decision to conduct this war that manner. That's the reality of it.


And that's the sad reality of it. I have no sympathy for any punishment Netanyahu suffers for his horrific decisions. The problem is Israeli citizens and the Jewish faith in general will be punished for it. And just like the innocent civilians of Gaza that will be an injustice and uncalled for.

Well let’s not forget who lit the fire here. And stop ignoring the fact that Hamas hides behind civilians and hostages to protect themselves.

Yeah I get it. I mean if someone came into my home and killed my family members the proper thing to do is kill his wife and kids in return. I mean killing him would be on my list too but taking revenge by killing his family would be justice, right? I mean after all he lit the fire by killing my family members.

They do hide among civilians. So it seems you think just indiscriminately bombing residential neighborhoods is the proper solution for that. I have no clue what part of "soldiers can identify their targets and kill the enemy while bombs kill everything in their path" people are missing here. And even then soldiers don't get it right all the time but they do much better than bombs. And if Israeli soldiers killed three of their own hostages with friendly fire, how many of those hostages do you think they themselves killed by dropping bombs everywhere?

3 hostages in Gaza were killed by friendly fire, Israeli military says

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/3-hostages-in-gaza-killed-by-friendly-fire-israeli-military-says/

How many hostages do you think Hamas is putting in the streets as decoys? I’d say at least three. And how many hostages do you think would be killed if Hamas never took them?

Then where do you think the rest of them are? In the tunnels the IDF is flooding with sea water? In residential housing which the IDF has flattened 40% of?

I'm pretty sure Hamas is moving these hostages around. And while doing so the IDF simply misidentified them. At least the IDF said they misidentified them. Even they didn't suggest such a silly idea as you did.

We don’t know the whole story do we? And yes Israeli leaders say they don’t know if the hostages were out intentionally or by mistake. And Hamas are notoriously brutal. They’ve done worse than what I suggest. The big differences are, Hamas is never punished or held accountable from the rest of the world for what they do are they?

Which is why I said Hamas should be punished. Which is no excuse for slaughtering innocent civilians. In Israel or Gaza. What we know is that Israel has killed over 18k in Gaza and most with indiscriminate bombings that killed everyone in their paths.

Neither you or anyone else can say how many civilians vs Hamas have been killed by Israeli bombings. Hamas is reporting those numbers. And as you keep saying indiscriminate bombing of civilians, well that is a rhetoric used by news outlets. It could be, but I don’t blindly believe everything I hear these days until proven out. We don’t know if that is truly the case. Hamas is Palestinian and Palestinian is Hamas. War is hell. Palestine/Hamas soldiers brutality attacked Israel and killed civilians and took them hostage. Israel declared war on Palestine/Hamas. Palestine/Hamas must pay the consequences. And after all the US really doesn’t have a say and should stay the hell out of all this crap. Tired of being the worlds cop.

If you haven't watched and seen all of the civilian casualties in all of those hospitals and their bodies being recovered in the streets I can't help you. Denying reality is the easiest way to dismiss the carnage. Everyone from the U.N. to Doctors without Borders to UNICEF are reporting these things. They're reporting that between 70% and 80% of the victims are women and children. They are not Hamas. But keep pretending it's not real if that's what it takes to make you feel better.

I’m not ignoring anything, it’s not our say. It’s their war and we aren’t in control of it. Israel, Palestine and Hamas control their own destiny, not US.


And . You don’t know that for sure and either does anyone else at this time. A lot of so called civilians are Hamas combatants in Palestine.

Yes, those unarmed mothers, children and the elderly must be Hamas. The things you have convinced yourself of astound me.

I haven’t convinced myself of anything. It’s you that is convinced that Israel is the bad actors.

I'm convinced based on the evidence that Netanyahu is a bad actor and there's miles of video evidence to prove that. You by contarst deny it while ignoring that evidence.

Not ignoring or denying anything here. Just facing the facts It’s a war. Civilians go hungry and die in wars on both sides. So get off my back like I’m ignoring something here. Actually I’m surprised Israel has held their temper this long. You know when, we have a few arab governments around the world that unleash their killer mercenaries onto Israel every now and then while paying no consequences for doing so. Russia, Syria and Iran being the major culprits. Nobody jumping on them for killing millions of civilians around the world over the years right?

They are not our allies nor have they agreed to follow international law. We are not financing their military. When you have to compare Israel to the worst players on the international stage to try and rationalize their behavior that in and of itself speaks volumes.

Of course people are going to die in war. That's no excuse to cause the most casualties possible to extract revenge on those who are innocent. I oppose Russia killing innocent Ukrainians as well. I don't pick and choose which innocent civilians I stand up for depending solely on who it is that's bombing them.

Israel-Gaza war: Half of Gaza's population is starving, warns UN

A senior UN aid official has warned that half of Gaza's population is starving, as fighting there continues.

Carl Skau, deputy director of the UN World Food Programme, said only a fraction of supplies needed have been able to enter the Strip - and nine out of 10 people cannot eat every day.

Conditions in Gaza have made deliveries "almost impossible", Mr Skau said.

Israel says it must continue air strikes on Gaza to eliminate Hamas and bring Israeli hostages home.

Israel Defence Forces spokesman Lt Col Richard Hecht told the BBC on Saturday that "any death and pain to a civilian is painful, but we don't have an alternative".

"We are doing everything we can to get as much as possible inside the Gaza Strip," he said.

Herzi Halevi, chief of staff of the IDF, was filmed telling soldiers the army has to "press harder" because "we're seeing terrorists surrendering... a sign their network is collapsing".

Meanwhile, the Biden administration has used an emergency law to bypass Congress and authorise the sale of some 14,000 rounds of tank ammunition worth more than $106m (£85m) to Israel.

Movement in and out of Gaza has been heavily restricted since 7 October, when Hamas fighters broke through Israel's heavily-guarded perimeter fence - killing 1,200 people and taking 240 hostages.

In response, Israel closed its borders with Gaza and began launching air strikes on the territory, restricting aid deliveries which Gazans heavily relied on.

The Hamas-run health ministry says Israel has killed more than 17,700 Gazans in its retaliatory campaign, including more than 7,000 children.

Only the Rafah crossing bordering Egypt has been open, allowing limited quantities of aid to reach Gaza. This week Israel agreed to open the Kerem Shalom crossing from Israel into Gaza in the next few days - but only for the inspection of aid lorries. The trucks would then go to Rafah to cross into Gaza.

Mr Skau said nothing had prepared him for the "fear, the chaos, and the despair" he and his WFP team encountered during their trip to Gaza this week.

They witnessed "confusion at warehouses, distribution points with thousands of desperate hungry people, supermarkets with bare shelves, and overcrowded shelters with bursting bathrooms," he said.

International pressure and a temporary seven-day ceasefire last month had allowed some badly-needed aid to enter the Gaza Strip, but the WFP insists a second border crossing is now needed to meet demand.

Nine out of 10 families in some areas are spending "a full day and night without any food at all", according to Mr Skau.

People in Khan Younis in the south of Gaza, a city now surrounded on two fronts by Israeli tanks, say the situation there is dire.

Dr Ahmed Moghrabi, head of the plastic surgery and burns unit in the city's only remaining health facility, Nasser hospital, fought back tears as he spoke to the BBC about the lack of food.

"I have a daughter, three years old, always she ask me (for) some sweets, some apple, some fruits. I can't provide. I feel helpless," he said.

"There is not enough food, there is not enough food, only rice, only rice can you believe? We eat once, once a day, only."

Khan Younis has been the focus of heavy air strikes in recent days and the boss of Nasser hospital there said his team had "lost control" over the numbers of dead and wounded arriving at the facility.

Israel says Hamas leaders are hiding in Khan Younis, possibly in an underground network of tunnels, and that it is fighting house to house and "shaft to shaft" to destroy the group's military capabilities.

Speaking on Saturday, the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, accused the United States of being complicit in war crimes, after it vetoed a UN Security Council resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.

Out of 15 of the Security Council members, 13 countries voted in favour of the resolution calling for a ceasefire. The UK abstained from the vote and the US was the only country to vote against the resolution.

Mr Abbas, the leader of the Palestinian Authority, said he held Washington responsible for "the bloodshed of Palestinian children, women, and elderly in Gaza at the hands of [Israeli] occupation forces".

The US ambassador to the UN, Robert Wood, defended the veto, and said the resolution was calling for an "unsustainable ceasefire" which "would leave Hamas in place able to repeat what it did on October 7".

Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, said on Saturday he appreciated the "correct stance" the US had taken at the security council.

A seven-day temporary ceasefire ended just over a week ago. Under the truce, 78 hostages were released by Hamas in exchange for 180 Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails.

There are still more than 100 hostages being held by Hamas in Gaza.

On Saturday, it was confirmed that Israeli hostage Sahar Baruch, 25, had been killed, his kibbutz and a hostages' group said in a statement.

It comes after the armed wing of Hamas released a video on Friday which it said showed the bloody aftermath of a failed IDF operation to free an Israeli hostage.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67670679

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/hamas-rape-israeli-women-oct-7-rcna128221

Their bodies tell the story. They are not alive to speak for themselves.

What is sad Eve is we have many people in the US and even here on this board over and over again supporting this kind of savagery and bashing Israel's right to defend itself. Antisemitism is ugly.

Agreed.

What is just as sad is maga conservatives holding up funding for Ukraine, which is supporting Russia while they indiscriminately bomb killing civilians in the Ukraine. But that’s for another thread.

Some here have already forgotten them.

Defending yourself isn't purposefully slaughtering innocent civilians. Those are two different things.

That's the kind of thing Hamas does.

Keep trolling for Hamas. Your good at it.

I'm speaking up for innocent civilians while I wouldn't expect you to understand the difference.

Hamas is hiding behind and under civilians. Israel is not targeting and slaughtering innocent civilians on purpose like you say. All Hamas needs to do to help stop this war and end the killing is to release the innocent civilians they took hostage that started this war.

Fixed it for you.

I guess that's why there are so many innocent dead civilians and so many residential neighborhoods destroyed. As I've said all along, soldiers can identify their targets. Bombs can't. A ground offensive makes sense in trying to defeat Hamas and save civilian lives. Bombing the hell out of residential neighborhoods does not. This isn't complicated. The vast majority of the globe agrees.

And that's the difference. I believe in standing up for innocent civilians whether they're Jewish or Muslim. Or Christian or Bhuddhist. What happened tyo innocent Israeli's on Oct. 7th was a terrible act of terrorism. So is the slaughter of innocent Palestinians. But you come along with you usual white noise only giving a damn about innocent civilians who are Jewish.

No, you havent been standing up for Israeli victims. You've been dead silent about them.

https://dailycaller.com/2023/12/22/american-hostage-hamas-dead-gaza/

First American hostage dead in gaza.

You do realize you can't change what happened over two months ago but maybe you can change what's happening now and what's been happening since Oct. 7th. There have been several times in this thread I have spoken out against Hamas for their actions. But of course when you refuse to read things you have no idea what they say. It's become expected of you.

Yes, it happened 2 months ago, and the terrorist sypathizers are trying to sweep it under the rug. I know which group you belong in.

You also refuse to aknowledge that hamas are using palestinians as human shields
.

Yes, it happened 2 months ago, and the terrorist sypathizers are trying to sweep it under the rug. I know which group you belong in.

You also refuse to aknowledge that hamas are using palestinians as human shields
.

So what do you or have you had to say about the high number of innocent Palestinians being bombed by Israel? As I said and as per usual you ignored, I've mentioned the terrible atrocities Hamas committed. But you haven't said one word about what almost the entire globe is calling the atrocities that Israel is still committing. I mean since you brought up sweeping things under the rug.