DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The bigger picture..

Only ONE QB was injured, not 4. Try again. This issue isn't something you have simply been addressing. it has become your place of residence.

Flacco came off the couch and didn't get injured. Using your own logic we must have one helluva strength and conditioning staff to have him in such great shape and playing injury free so quickly after coming off the couch. Prove me wrong.

That is inaccurate. The Browns lost 2 QB's to injury. DTR was concussed in the Bronco's game then came back and got injured in the first Texans game and was then out for the year. They had 2 Injured QB's that did not finish the season.

Point being that you can't train a player not to have a concussion. So while you are correct about the concussion injury, a concussion really has nothing to do with the training and conditioning of the players.

I do agree that Chubb has a tough road to negotiate and there is a very good chance he comes back only a shell of what he was.

That is true. The injury he sustained in mop up duty vs the Texans in December was a hip injury. I think what happened this year with injuries was bad luck as much as anything and playing a brutal schedule. The Browns played 13 of their 17 games vs winning teams. I mean things like Grant Delpit getting hurt and out for the season on the same day he signed a long-term contract. You just can't make that kind of stuff up. Watson getting and MRI on his ancle and just inquiring about his shoulder and then they found the break. I cannot prove it but in the Titans game he was hit hard on his right shoulder on a designed run trying to score at about the 3-yard line. He went out basically the next 3 games. I think the break happened then but was not found until after the Ravens game.

Flacco was good while it lasted, but I think that is over. If he was the back-up, he would probably need more money that we are willing/able to pay, and second, with what he did this year, it would just create a QB controversy from the start.

We just don't need that to start the new season. That said, I wouldn't mind another vet on the squad. I think DTR is more question mark than answer.

I agree to an extent and have said so earlier in the season. You can train the guys to minimize the chance of a concussion, but that falls on the position coaches by teaching safe tackling form, not the conditions coaches.

The DB coach needs to pull tape on Joe Haden. The guy was a tackling machine for a small guy. He kept his head out of danger, wrapped his guy up and brought them down. Maybe even hire him for a month to work with the DB's. He and Hospital Ward are around the same size and skill level, yet Ward can't seem to avoid having his head bounced around like a pinball.

To be straight forward it’s totally irrelevant when the season is over. Excuses don’t win games and who cares about who’s injured or not when we lost by a landslide against a rookie QB. Who do you think is on everybody’s lips. Browns injury record or a young exiting black man with an abundance of charm?

Houston wouldn’t trade Watson back even if we gave them one million picks and a couple of tons of gold. That’s how most people see this trade today. Go figure out why…


The team who win the Super Bowl do this despite their injury list. That’s how a successful organization deal with problems.


What we supporters should do and hopefully our management do the same is stop talking about bad luck and injuries and focus on how we can improve to get better.
What’s the plan with Watson going forward. Another quality receiver? A new left tackle? Maybe shifting scheme and becoming more unpredictable?

I saw a stat that Flacco throw the ball 46 times and C J Stroud only throw it 21 times. Clearly Houston protected their QB a lot better than us. There is room for improvement.

All in all we were ineffective and predictable compared to the Texans who were effective and unpredictable. The stats are crystal clear and the eye test backs it up.

There’re many areas for improvements.

You see when we focus on the wrong thing it leads us nowhere. If our game plan had been flawless and the only thing that was missing was the execution, then we can talk about being without Chubb, but that was not the case.

Our Injuries didn’t help but our loss was a combination of many things were injuries was one only a small part of the components that was missing.

More about the bigger picture.

I think it's wise to take away wishfull thinking when looking at the future and evaluate our key players based on recent stats and facts.

For example.
Cleveland have in my view the third best (or the second worst depending on how we want to see it) QB in our division.
Lamar Jackson's stats speaks for itself and Joe Burrow when healthy has reached the Super Bowl. This season both Watson and Burrow has been injured but a healthy Joe Burrow's has so far been a better player the last couple of seasons.

There're probably six or seven better QB's in our conference than Watson if I look at the results the last couple of seasons.
Patrick Mahomes. Josh Allen. Lamar jackson. Joe Burrow. Aaron Rodgers. (when he's healthy) All of them are a level above Watson based on their teams results. With the numbers from this season it's also fair to make an argument that C J Stroud and Tua Tagovailoa looks better too. It's debatable in some cases but if you ask an neutral supporter the opinions goes both ways.

Kevin Stefanski deserves a lot of credit for his work this season but how good is he if we compare him to other NFL elite coaches?
I leave the answer open but I wouldn't be surprised if there're at least 10 - 15 NFL headcoaches with a better CV based on the last 4 years.

I personally like Amari Cooper for his calm and mature approach but how good is he among other wide receivers? Top 10? Top 15?

Same with David Njuko who I also like a lot for his personality and the way he carry himself but how good is he among other TE? Top 5? Top10?

I ask these questions because I think it's wise to be realistic when we judge our offensive unit. To go all the way we need elite level talents (Top 5-10) on at least a couple of positions. Nick Chubb is elite! Thats indisputable but how about the rest?

Against the Texans we fell short, close to humiliated. I'm not sure Watson is a huge upgrade from Flacco. Probably a higher ceiling but also a lower floor. How is his leadership qualitys and is he someone to count on when the storm is coming? On top of that he has been out for nearly a season with a shoulder injury. He's younger than Flacco but from a mental and a overall health standpoint I'm not sure who's more reliable and have a better mental stabiltity. I understand there're different opinions when it come to such a polarising character but if we judge him fairly where does he stand compared the Mahomes and Allen's of this world?

I hope everybody take this the right way and don't see it as downgrading on our players and coaches. Having different opinions is healthy and being positive is a good thing, as long as it's realistic.

It's just interesting to know how all of you assess our potential based on what we know so far about our offensive line up and what is a realistic view for the future?

After looking back on this season, I'd love to know a couple things.

1. Our defense, as talented and well-coached as they were, had some GLARING issues that came back to bite them in the butt in the most important game. To some degree, the magic did just run out, but you can also see why this game in Houston fit with some of the trends over the year.

2. IMO, Watson's leash is REALLY short. After watching Flacco come in here and put up the performances he did (flawed though they were) with basically no familiarity with the O, I hope we don't hear anything about any sort of "rust" when Watson starts back up.

the defense was often gashed by quick throws, misdirections, quick hitters, and flood concepts (man beaters)

Houston really went after Newsome/Thornhill/Hickman in coverage .. they are not good on guys like Collins

The fact the Browns needed five starting QB's isn't an excuse, it's a fact. Those are two different things you seem to be having a problem distinguishing between. The massive amount of injuries is also a fact. Being forced to play the fourth, fifth and even sixth OT on the depth chart at the end is also a fact. But when people wish to label facts as excuses we see responses such as yours.

I know that the Browns have a totally different background than many other organizations but in the last 48h both Dallas and Philly’s HC and QBs on the chopping board because of not meeting expectations. Unfortunately for these guys that’s how ruthless a owner/FO must be to maintain long term success when the standard are sliding downhill.

The uncomfortable question to ask is who’s the players and coaches in our organization that don’t have what it takes to go all the way/winning a Super Bowl? If we’re going to improve standards and get better results we need to install that mindset and not be afraid to make changes when needed. To keep the b-line on the field for the sake of it takes us nowhere.

From my perspective the Browns need at least a couple of new warriors with killing instinct in their roster. The collapse against the Texans was unacceptable and send all the wrong signals. That’s why we need a couple of new ruthless lions who’s willing to fight with their body on the line to the bitter end. More Njuko’s and JOK’s and less snowflakes.

That also goes for the coaches. I want Stefanski to have a Titanic mentality where he’s last one leaving the ship when it’s sinking. Not someone who jump into the first life saving boat and hide himself under a blanket.

I don’t say he did but I think some of you get what I mean. We need players and coaches who sends the right type of signals.

He's blathering.

I think the wrong signal is taking off-season marching orders from 1 game. If that's what we're doing, then it's Schwartz and not Stefanski who's on the chopping block as it was the defense that really poo'd the bed.

The other big thing that I think is wrong with your post is that just 1 year ago Njoku would've been on the list of snowflakes vs being a lion.

I don't understand what you're saying about KS not going down with the Titanic. I don't see how he's jumped into a boat and hiding under a blanket. Maybe I'm missing something, but I feel that's maybe a bad metaphor for what you're trying to say.

When you have HOF HC's on the chopping block for not meeting expectations, it would only stand to reason that Stefanski should be seriously looked at too.

Not unlike the stance the team took with Mayfield, does Stefanski have the skills and fortitude to actually take the Browns to a Super Bowl or are the Browns just an occasional playoff team with Stefanski at the helm?

Are the Browns spinning their wheels holding onto a guy that might never get the team past the first or second round on the playoffs?

Should Haslam at least take a look at a Harbaugh or Belicheck? If a Tomlin or McCarthy become available, should they be looked at also? There's a number of coaches available that have led their teams to a Super Bowl.

With all the money that Haslam has spent over the last 3-years (almost 70M more than any other team), is the next move an upgrade at HC?

Over the last 4-years, Stefanski's rein, the Browns have posted the worst record in the AFC North.

Total games reg season and playoffs the last 4-years in the AFC North:
Baltimore, 43-27-0 .614 w/1 AFC North Championship (still playing in year 4)
Pittsburgh, 40-29-1 .579 w/1 AFC North Championship
Cincinnati, 40-32-1 .555 w/2 AFC North Championships
Cleveland, 38-32-0 .543 w/0 AFC North Championships

How many of those HC's had to depend on four starting QB's this season? Some of you guys kill me.

Hickman REALLY got picked on. He may step up to being better in the next couple of years, but I think this is another case where injuries exposed us.

Most of the big plays we gave up this season were by virtue of two things:
- The defense is aggressive by nature. That wins a LOT, but it can be a liability as well.
- miscommunication or players out of place. The more backups that were in, the more this happened. Especially with our Safeties.

Stroud really picked on Newsome as well.

My question for you is what’s you think is missing for us to win for example the conference final.

Only more quality players or maybe some changes among our coaches?

Do you still think the Browns winning culture is optimal or how do you explain our latest collapse against the Texans?

Final question and a tough one. Is Watson good enough to win a Super Bowl and if so what tools does he need to have to have such success?

What chopping block? The media chopping block??

Are you predicting both Dallas and Philly will fire their coaches and QBs? Are you predicting that will result in "long term success"?

You can't really be using the past to point at this "long term success"... The Cowboys haven't won more than a single game in any postseason appearance since '95. The Eagles took 57 years to win their title.

Something's sliding downhill.

Remaining somewhere close to healthy in response to the first two.

I think the winning culture is in tact and the last game collapse will only fuel the players for next season. Most people with an ounce of common sense, including the players, realize the obstacles they had to overcome to ever make the playoffs to begin with and just how unlikely that was after losing Chubb, watson and both starting OT's. and that's not even mentioning the injury report that made it look like someone had blasted the locker room with a bomb.

I have no idea if watson is good enough to win a SB. The last few games he played combined with a good defense suggests yes.

The team collapsed in the second half. The responsibility to keep the spirit up and fight to the bitter end is on the HC. Head is the key word. Who do you think should be responsible if the players don’t respond the right way?

I don’t know your thoughts but my eye test saw in the 4Q a team with a hanging heads and poor body language. I didn’t either see encouraging signals from our HC, more was he slowly walking around for himself. I maybe wrong but I honestly didn’t see any winning mentality in his way of coaching. I know you don’t like that answer but I just telling you my impressions.

Both Dallas and Philly started the season like two SB contenders and finished it badly. Any thoughts why? Or is it like us where injuries is the whole reason? (sarcasm)

Thanks for proving my point. That bears absolutely no comparison to what happened here in Cleveland. You used them as examples to why Stefanski should be fired: "that’s how ruthless a owner/FO must be to maintain long term success". Please tell me what I'm missing without going out on a tangent.

What winning culture is in tact? What are you talking about? Exactly what have we won the last 20 years or so or do you count a few regular winning seasons as a huge success? Just curious.

There’s absolutely nothing in this organization’s history the last 20 years that is connected to a winning culture from my perspective. Winners wins trophy’s and division titles. Seriously? WTF…

I have never suggested that Stefanski should get fired the last couple of months, in fact the opposite. Stop making up lies.

Changing coaches can be a lot of things without firing the HC.

Secondly. I didn’t prove anything to you because Dallas and Philly was out coached and out played by a better team and a better prepared HC. That’s why they’re discussions about their future.

FATE. For you about Dallas and Philly.

So now you want to prove to me Sirianni sucks?

lol



Sorry I didn't see those as glaring endorsements for Stefanski. I don't know what I was thinking. Don't cry though, I'm not trying to "make up lies" about you. If you've been endorsing Stefanski I may have read right over it because of things like:


So, you mean Super Bowl or clean house? Or will one playoff victory keep them off the "chopping block"?

First you talk about this season. When that doesn't work you expand it to the past 20 years. Typical. I'm talking about a HC taking a roster whose injury report looks like the locker room was hit by a bomb and had to use 4 different QB's to an 11-6 record and a playoff appearance. I have no clue what the hell you are talking about.


When you can't refute this season was a minor miracle you resort to history. Typical bait and switch con game. Seriosly, WTF.

Again, which one of those teams had to use four starting QB's this season? I bet you were the dodge ball champion of your graduating class weren't you?

I think Stefanski coached his tail off this year. A coach can't be a CotY candidate and be on the hot seat at the same time.

But I also think what you're saying can be true if the team stumbles out the gate next year and regresses. As impressive as this year was, given the circumstances, it still doesn't erase Stefanski's history of underperforming when his team should be winning.