We win and lose as a team but questions must be asked why we so grossly underperform when it matters most? It’s not only Flacco’s fault or our defensive unit but it’s almost the whole team including all coaches who come up short when the whole world is watching. We have been unlucky with injuries but that doesn’t explain why almost the whole team choke under pressure.

Is it decades of bad results that creates a weak winning culture?

Have we traded and drafted snowflakes?

Stefanski has to take some of the blame. He’s the HC and the bucks stops with him. Berry has so far created miracles but when the play offs started the results wasn’t there. That’s hard to walk around when we assess our FO.

Is losing by such a big margin only bad luck or is it more in it?

Bad luck? Really? The Browns had a good year but flopped in the playoffs. Rookie QB and a Rookie HC outplayed and out coached our team, Simple as that! Heck, the Texans were 2 feet away from dropping 50 on our vaulted team and defense. I'm not so sure that Haslam having the highest spend over the last 3 years expected a ROI of a first round wildcard loss but who knows? Guess it's time for Berry to go out and try to buy the parts needed for next year now. It was exciting while it lasted. Still chasing that 2020 record though.

Did you two coordinate this thread ahead of time?

Sometimes, you just have to know that there are people who don’t know, and don’t know that they don’t know.

Reminder that their is no guarantees that the Browns
Can reach the playoffs next year. The AFC North
Had 4 teams over .500 in 2023.

I'm not disappointed in the season, just today's result

Looking ahead, we have a difficult division, in a difficult conference and a difficult schedule next season

Lots of questions with our QB remain

Oh goodie, all the crybaby Browns "fans" in one thread. Maybe we can keep it isolated, although ten pages will never be enough.

It's a painful reminder that any team in any division with any number of injuries (their own or their opponents) can win any year with any number of new players via FA or the draft.

Thank you. Thank you for the reminder.

Good experience going into next year and we will have out QB1 back.

I think smartest thing this team can do is NOT adopt the loser “why us” cursed attitude, and just put down their heads and get to work on next year. No firings, no big rearrangements, learn from what went wrong today and shore up.

There’s more good on this team than there has been since the early 90’s. Is it enough? Clearly not. There’s work to be done on the roster and lessons to learned from the experiences.

But buying into”bad luck” and woe is me cursed garbage is the way you stay a loser. I still believe in the GM and coaching. I believe in the players and that health was critically not on our side this year. Is what it is. Buck up and come back stronger next year.

Go browns.

But, he'll be 'rusty', yet again. In year 3 of his contract, still 'rusty'. Coming off a season ending injury.

In the last 4 years he's played, what? 12 games? he's probably forgotten how to play football. One thing I'm sure he can do is endorse checks.

It's up to him to prove he can play. Period. The end.

Watson is done, he will never be what he once was and we have sold the farm believing that myth.

I’m not willing to wash my hands yet. Next year will be critical for him obviously. But if we can keep him healthy, we don’t know what’s possible

Their is no guarantees? I'm trying to determine which is the bigger failure here, post content or grammar.

We simply ran out of players.

But never out of excuses .

Facts are not excuses.

Our defensive made their worst game of the season and none, except JOK and Hunt, stepped up and showed any kind of attitude and determination.
Flacco made two turnovers and in general just looked shy. Apart from Njuko, a limping Cooper and Hunt we looked tired and out of ideas.

We where simply out coached for nearly 75% of the game by a rookie HC. Browns offense only produced 14 points. Our run game was poor. Our only decent period of the game was in our first couple of drives and after that we produced zero points in 40 minutes in a play off game.
That's a huge failure no matter how you paint it.

I ask these questions because there's more than just lack of talent. That's obvious and those who can't see that don't understand the importance of attitude, preparation and creating a winning culture. Tonight we saw none of these things that separate a talented team from a winning team.

We can't continue to give excuses whenever we fall flat to the ground. An organization, a GM and HC with ambitions must ask themselves questions.

Why did we look so unprepared?
Why did most of our key players underperform?
Why where we out coached by a rookie HC?

Watson is next season on his third year and so far absolutely zero success. Injured. A bunch of bad games and only one major win when we can say he was worth 230M. That's a huge failure. Look at Houston. Rookie QB who looked like a seasoned veteran. A rookie HC who had his players preperaed and with the right attitude. No excuses.

Stefanski and Berry deserves another season but if we don't do better next year in January 2025 it's time for heads to roll.

Excellent reply! Detailed and razor sharpe. With contributions like that there's no need for more. Another failed season. More excuses and more of

The Bigger Picture?

The Bigger Picture is that the Browns had a phenomenal season. Best RB in the game Out week 2(maybe McCaffrey owns that title right now after this season). 4 QB's and a 39 year old off his sofa at home steps in to lead the team to the playoffs and a 4-1 regular season record to clinch playoff football. Injuries literally everywhere. So bigger picture this season is 100% to be celebrated.

I mean if you want to rename the thread 'knee jerk overreactions' - sure. Let's all sit at our keyboards and piss and moan. But you'll need to ask the moderators to change the title of the thread.

Everyone is bitterly disappointed - but if you can't sit back and savor the ride that this team took you on this year, maybe you need to consider it is what you are expecting and if it's realistic. If you class this as a failed season I think that's a you thing not a Cleveland Browns thing.

Bigger Picture? I have had doubts about Stefanski and his coaching and play calling for multiple years. This year I feel like he mostly put those fears to bed. A comment by Rish in the Post Game thread is warranted - maybe Stefanski is like Baker, over performs when there are low expectations and underperforms when the expectations are high. Maybe. And he's maybe he's going to get too cute now and again based on history. Maybe he'll continue to get pass happy in some games. But I don't think you can say one way or the other based on 2 4th and 5th string OT's getting owned by healthy and good DE's - in one game. An aging Hunt who everyone agreed had lost 2 steps being our best RB. Cooper clearly hurt. What I can tell you that based on an entire season littered with obstacles that changed on a weekly basis - Stefanski does a LOT of things well and he deserves to be the HC and get an extension.

2024 -- Questions at QB, WR, RB, OL. Sure. But Bigger Picture is that none of those questions can be answered till next year and I really doubt anyone has anything new to opine on Watson who hasn't started for about 9 or 10 games.

Time to find out how bad Myles is now?

Re: best defense.

The Browns defense was middle of the pack based upon points given up. The Ravens gave up the fewest.

Yards per game is not as important as points given up and points given up in critical situations.

Let me ask you a friendly question mgh88?

How much success has the Browns had in the last 20 seasons?

It's a rhetorical question but you understand my point and that's at some point in all these years the talk about unluck goes out of the window after such a long time. Luck isn't always random, it's something you earn by hard work and excellent preparation. If the organization want to improve the outcome of their efforts they need to ask themselves why the end result isn't good enough.

Our regular season was a success from a historical standpoint but was it a success based on the talent we have in our team? I say we met expectations and ended where we should end with so much talent on our roster. With or without injuries.

Watson get injured could be labeled as "bad luck" but when you pay a QB with a questionable history a fortune then our FO probably should prepare for the unexpected and ask themselves if this is acceptable. A QB who in three seasons don't finish more than 50% of all games is bad business and poor planning. It's part of the failure not winning a play off game. No other way around this. Do you disagree?

I perfectly understand your view but I'm not satisfied with mediocrity and "bad luck". I think with better management we can do it better. You can call it knee jerk or whatever if you like but our overal results in the last 20 years is one of the worst, if not the worst, in the whole NFL. Why is that I ask you kindly?

I agree Stefanski deserves to be the head coach, but I would hold off on any extensions at the moment. I have generally leaned toward giving him one based on this season, and I still do…I think his body of work with a heavy emphasis on this season has earned it, but I just wouldn’t be in a rush to do it. Might even let him coach out next year before doing anything. If the season is going well, maybe you extend him mid season. You don’t really run the risk of losing him. There’s no other teams that are going to be watching how it unfolds ready to pounce on him as their head coach. If I were Haslam, Depo, and Berry, I would not do anything until next season.

Of course we will hear about an extension in a couple of weeks.

The Browns D had this really weird thing go on this year.

I don’t think any offense in the history of the league hung their defense out to dry more than the Browns. It seemed every single one of the league leading turnovers happened deep in our own territory. And the defense, which was good, would always concede a td. Like they could never just hold them to a fg. But if a team had to go the length of the field on our d, they couldn’t move the ball at all. It was so weird. But those turnovers really skewed the points given up.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-red-zone-scoring-pct

If I am reading the link correctly the Browns were dead last in red zone TD defense this season. Of course the skew that you mentioned plays a role but still that was bad.

I didn't talk about luck. I talked about the Browns over achieving based on our QB being picked up off the street. Our best RB in the wldcard game being picked up off the street and the OT's being 4th and 5th stringers.

For me the body of work that consisted of 16 games outweighs the single wildcard game as representative of what I will focus on and take away from the season. If I had a time machine and the influence to undo the DW trade? Sure I would - I think based on what we've seen the overwhelming majority of fans would, to date it's been a poor return. But to me that's not 'big picture' that's rehashing something that's been discussed a lot and I don't see any new material to add to the opinions already shared. jmo

I should add - that the last 20 years has nothing to do with Berry and Stefanski and what we saw vs Houston. And again - to explain my outlook - realistic expectations have to form part of the analysis of the team and the HC etc. there's 32 teams ... 31 of them are destined to "fail" based on winning the Superbowl being the goal. Based on the injuries we had, the personnel we were able to start, what was a reasonable expectation? To win the division? To reach the AFC Championship game? I think not. In fact I'd be interested to hear anyone make a case for expecting the Browns to reach the AFC championship game. And if that isn't a realistic expectation - then maybe reaching the 2nd week of the playoffs **might** be reasonable? I don't actually believe that can be said to be expected with a 39 year old, off the street QB, Hunt, a banged up Cooper and David Bell and all the other injuries ... so where did we fail? I'd suggest that many people are more upset about the manner in which we lost than the losing ... to me that's a gut punch but not 'big picture'

They mentioned this stat last night. They also mentioned that playing man predominantly might be an explanation ... but I also think the short fields that the D faced a lot might be a factor idk. I'd be interested to know how many times opponents started drives inside the 20 ... should it matter? Maybe not - but it might be something?

Another interesting tidbit about the Browns vaunted defense was it was dead last in the NFL in "Red Zone Defense." NFL Team Opponent Red Zone Scoring Percentage (TD only) was 71.11% in 2023 and ranked 32nd while last year, 2022, the Browns defense was ranked 15th at 55.17%. In fact, 2023 was the worst "Red Zone Defense" the Browns have had since Stefanski's arrival in 2020.

Number 1 ranked "Yards Per Game" was touted all year but given the results, if the opponent got in the Red Zone, you could bank on an opponent TD score in 2023.

2023 AFC North "Red Zone Defense"
Ranked #2 Baltimore 40.82%
Ranked #5 Pittsburgh 46.00%
Ranked #11 Cincinnati 51.67%
Ranked #32 Cleveland 71.11%

Overall it was a year to be proud of.... we had 5 different QBs start a game this year, lost the best RB in the league, best guard in the league, had a patchwork OL and still won 11 games and made the playoffs...

not sure how it all went wrong yesterday, but overall we had a season to be proud of...

with that said, I personally am concerned with all the injuries... I know injuries happen, but is there something we could be doing better to prevent them? Better equipment? better strength/conditioning? better recovery? I dunno.....

I'm hoping we can take the momentum of the season, get healthy, and make a push in 2024... wish we had a few more 1st and 2nd day draft picks... so berry needs to do a great job with what he has...

This right here. If anyone did not see the culture change, the "never quit" attitude from top to bottom despite all of the adversity we faced, they are blind as a bat. We are deep in talent on the field, on the sidelines and in the FO. If we can stay reasonably healthy, we'll be contending for a Super Bowl next year.

Next seasons schedule is brutal too. 12 of the Browns 17 games are against teams with winning records this year. 8 of the games are against 2023 playoff teams. The biggie is the Browns have 9 road games next year compared to only 8 in 2023. 3-5 on the road in 2023 with a playoff loss on the road added does not fare well for the Browns in 2024.

Next year's schedule:

Away - Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Philadelphia, Washington, Denver, Las Vegas, Jacksonville, New Orleans
Home - Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Dallas, NY Giants, Kansas City, LA Chargers, Miami

The bigger picture I see, is that the Browns saw the same fate Baltimore did last year. Injuries put a hurting on this team. Those bashing coaching have no clue, IMO. We got lucky winning with back ups, and when the playoffs start, you need your best.
The future looks bright in my eyes. There are some moves that need made for sure, but the coaching staff shouldn't be touched. If I'm Berry, I go after some play makers at the WR position. I also look to draft or sign some OTs.
One thing I would do, is move off of Ford. The guy has no vision and only makes plays when he has room to run. I also would look to replace Walker at LB. While he is a good leader and a smart player, he is never on the field. They need a thumper to play along side of JOK.
As for QB, I don't know what to think. Watson was returning to form, and then out with injury. They could keep Flacco as the back up, but I think that would just cause a split in the locker room.
This team has been mostly home grown players, I see the young guys on the roster improving with the experience they got this season. Most of the back up players now have plenty game experience, time to add some starting caliber players to that mix.
As for next years schedule, I don't think you can ever judge who is going to be the same year to year. Many of the teams that were looked at as easy wins this year, had surprising seasons . Look at the Texans.

I, for once can be proud of what this team accomplished with all the setbacks they had. Looking to the future, I don't think the Browns will be looked at the way they have been for the last 20+ years. The culture has changed, and the expectations have been raised. Time to build upon the success of this year.

Brady use to say the season starts in November and ends when the SB is over. That’s an unrealistic way of approach for at least 30 teams but the bottom line is that your last game will probably define most of your season. I partly agree with that.

Look at Miami at Arrowhead. Freezing cold and extremely unpleasant weather. The Dolphins hasn’t been built to win in winter conditions. Is that wise?

The Browns problem is that we don’t excel in the red zone and that we’re not consistent enough. That goes for both our star players and our coaches.

Stefanski is good enough to continue at least one more season but his record when it matters is still poor, that’s concerning. Andrew Berry has done magic with our roster but signing that 230M deal is till hurting us enormously. That’s also on his CV.

Give Kevin a 1 year extension and go back to the drawing board and see what we can do with Watson. Right now he’s by far our biggest problem.

I agree there was a culture change this season. The attitude of the team changed for the better. Houston was the better team yesterday and put a beating on us no excuses here but I honestly believe part of it was that the injuries caught up with us. It had to happen eventually. Even some of the guys playing yesterday weren’t 100%. Between FA and the draft we should be able to strengthen our weak areas and add some depth. If we can stay relatively healthy next year we can duplicate this season’s record. JMO

However, the Browns defense allowed the fewest Red Zone attempts in the NFL with only 42, 30 of which resulted in a TD which is about the middle of the pack for TDs allowed in the Red Zone. The Browns were a NFL best in only allowing 24.8% of their opponents drives to end in a score.

The Browns were a NFL best in holding opponents to a 29.1% conversion rate on 3rd downs and an NFL best in holding opponents to a 40% conversion rate on 4th downs.

As Rish mentioned, offensive turnovers, which the Browns led the NFL in with 37, were a significant contributing factor.

The Browns defense had the second best total team defense EPA with 90.4. The best was Baltimore with 107.53

On the other hand, the Browns had the fifth worst total team offense EPA with an abysmal -110.55. Only the Giants, Panthers, Patriots and Jets were worse. The 49ers were a league best at +231.8 EPA. Baltimore was 130.64. Cincinnati had a 41.33 offensive EPA and Pittsburgh had a -14.35 offensive EPA.

That's what they said about Covid.

I'm not going to interject here if I think you're right or wrong. I have no way of knowing that. But if you're right and he sucks next season, I'm sure people will be blaming Stefanski for it. It's like, what they do.

Nobody needs to waste much effort responding to something of such little substance. This coaching staff took a team with an injury report that looked liker a bomb hit the locker room to the playoffs and you think it was a failure and they should give the coaching staff "one last chance"? Get that BS out of here.

I don't always agree with your posts, but you are 'spot-on' with this one....kudos.

Just some thoughts...

First a big "THANK YOU" to the Browns players and coaches for the effort they gave to the fan base during the 2023/2024 season. Seeing the improvement on the defensive side of the ball was a most welcome improvement. It is remarkable what a change one coach/coordinator can have over a franchise, but Jim Schwartz did one helluva job and deserves credit for the much of the progress this season.

Those at the top of Browns franchise need to make an honest critique of their own performances and identify the areas they can improve upon. The Brown were the most "injury prone" team I've seen in a long time and it won't matter if the Browns stack their roster with the best talent in the NFL, it won't matter if those players are unable to practice or play if they "injured".

Pretending that it's just bad luck...NOPE...there are reasons for injuries and in my experiences, "CONDITIONING and PHYSICAL TRAINING" play a role...jmho

Still riding that same amusement park ride I see. I think it's rated for children under 12.

Prove me wrong...

I'm not the one making the accusations. Since you made the accusations it's up to you to prove you're right. Thus far it's been nothing but your opinion.

You do understand that when you are the one making such a claim it is up to you to back up and prove what you're saying is right don't you? It would appear you do not.

Here's an example of what you're trying to do here........

Stefanski has three wives and children by all of them. Prove me wrong.

People can make accusations about anything. The problem is it's up to them to back up their accusations.

We wouldn't have had this problem if you deniers weren't out here drinking all the kool-aide from the same glass!

Thank you for translating Pit.

We're still waiting for that conditioning program that you followed to keep yourself injury free.

It seems as though he may be trying to jockey himself into position to be hired by the Browns training staff. I'm sure they're dying to know his conditioning regimen.

Do you hear anybody outside Cleveland talk about injured players as a valid excuse for our brutal loss against the Texans?

Winners spend their time to improve compared to losers who use their time to find excuses. Nothing personal but I’m happy to be on the opposite side of the spectra from some of you.

Do you hear anyone with a brain claiming that such an extensive injury list isn't a major contributing factor to a teams performance?


Legitimate reasons and circumstances are factual. Those who deny that call them excuses.


Nothing personal but I'm happy that I'm on the opposite side of the "spectrum" from those that thinks existing factors play no part in the outcome and as such set themselves up for unreasonable expectations.

Ahhh... so you're a WINNER because you only come here to complain about how the Browns suck, but anyone that points out the fact that our roaster has been decimated by injury is a LOSER.

Stay classy.


It's always nice to visit the "Way Back Machine" lol


🤔

So I'll ask the question which I implied before... What are your expectations for our team?

We'll stick to the offensive obstacles.

4 starting QBs. The last one, a 39 year old signed as a FA sitting at home.
Stud RB, the heart of the team, out wk 2. Among his replacements a FA RB signed off his sofa. A guy most agreed had lost one of not 2 steps last year.
4th and 5th string OT forced to play most/much of the season.
OG fighting injuries final few games.

Are you looking for 17-0? Anything less would be excuses?

Looking for AFC champions? SB?

What is your expectation? Because for me if you want to simply complain and find fault it means the team failed to meet your expectations.... What were they?

Good at beating players with helmets

The Browns are 13 million over the cap for the upcoming year.not exactly
A good start to the off season. .
The Browns have issues at LT WR and LB.
The Browns if they sign FAs will have to go the bargain bin
Route in 2024. No splash signings.
Alot of 2nd and 3rd year players will need step in order
For the Browns to stay competitive in the North

Dude created an account to say "Good at beating players with helmets"

What is the thought process?

"This will get them fired up!" 🤣

And don't forget... no guarantees on returning to the playoffs.

That's the part that burns me the most. 😡

Step 1: wait till a team loses
Step 2: google losing team to find their team forum
Step 3: create screen name using a word that connects to their team
Step 4: use a past dramatic situation as your clever post
Step 5: reap the trolling rewards
Step 6: show mom and dad that you have new friends

JAFAN...here you go...

This is the best example I can use to duplicate my off season workout routine that I started to develop between my Sophomore and Junior year in HS. Between my Junior and Senior seasons, variations of this workout routine took up 80% of my workout with the rest of my time used for stretching and some weight lifting (upper body).




Remember, some of you asked for this info so don't come back at me as bragging about myself...

There’s a rumor floating around that they’ve made advances in medicine, conditioning, aerobics, and exercise since the 70s and 80s.

"Not the Browns!!!"

Really a remarkable season...haven't had this much fun since 2020...even if it's another season that needs a few asterisks to really remember. Duct tape and bubble gum can only hold on so long.

The resiliency of the team was also remarkable and a welcomed change. That's reason enough for me to not even think about firing anyone from the coaches on up. It looks - and feels - like something good is brewing here...even if I'm skeptical. We have to find out if 2023 was real or never-before-seen luck.

Texting with a buddy last night and we concluded that the Browns were 5-1 against backup QBs (counting Tannehill as a backup and losing wk 18). One of those teams we beat with their backup QB later kicked our teeth in when we played them with their starter Saturday. Our backup QBs were better than theirs...but that tells us zilch going forward...largely to Joe being available and effective oftentimes.

For 2023, we played the #3 schedule in off-division games. For 2024 we will get the #2 schedule while the Bengals get the #4 schedule and get back the poser at QB. That's Dolphins, Saints, Jags for us. In those same off-division games the Steelers get the Jets, Falcons, Colts and the Bengals get the Patriots, Panthers, Titans. Those (3) non-same opponents might be the key. We will be in (3) dogfights there while the Bengals get essentially a bye week playing against (3) new head coaches and (3) trash QBs. If we go 0-3 and the Bengals go 3-0 that could kick us out for division crown aspirations.

I'm concerned that we will somewhat roll the dice again at QB. DW4 is coming off shoulder surgery on his throwing arm AND hasn't consistently demonstrated that - as a Brown - he is the top tier guy we hoped we were getting. I think signing Flacco is a no-brainer...warts and all.

Chubb should be back...but when will he be at full speed. Ford gets crapped on all to much as people forget he's a 2nd year, 5th Rd player. When I read people crap on Ford I wonder if they blame AB for not having a better option. I like Strong as he's faster and more-decisive, but we need to spend some assets at RB.

Our WRs outside of Cooper are less than pedestrian...again. Look at the WRs on the other playoff teams. We need to get better players here...period. Oh...and STOP with the little guys for crying out loud. If they don't run like Tyreke or Pacheco (sp?) DON'T get them.

We have a weird OL situation as our (2) best OTs play the same position and we've got a lot of money tied up in our LT who didn't look much better than the castoff who replaced him...and we are paying the interior (3) guys a truckload of $$$.

I won't get into the defensive players as we are solid there and really only need a better LB than A Walker...re-sign some guys and keep solidifying the backups with young guys who are good players. That and we already have to spend limited assets at QB2, RB, WR, WR.

I sure hope the team and FO don't sit back and pat themselves on the back as there is A LOT of work to do here.

scott...you can talk straight up to me...no need to pretty things up or attempt to be snide, if that was your purpose for your comment.

The Browns have an "injury problem" and if not corrected or addressed the Browns will never win a Super Bowl.

scott, have you ever heard it said, "you are what your record says you are"...and when we see so many of our players on IR, it's time for those responsible for conditioning and physical training program to be judged and improved.

As for my workout being old fashion, I went 2 yrs uninjured playing outside LB and OLine at a time when LBs could be cut at the knees with blockers being allowed to use cut blocks and roll-blocks. Football was violent with the rules being so lax. I was injured my sophomore year, in practice..playing center, when someone on our OL moved early and our idiot nose tackle decided to jump on the ball thinking it was a free ball. Broke a bone in my wrist and I missed the last 3 games of the season.

I could not snap the ball with a cast on but I convinced the coach that I could still play LB and that the pain did not bother me. Before the next game the coach devised a pad and I got all dressed ready to play but the officials had to OK the cast and pad and they said NO WAY would they allow me to play...

...that moment did something to me..it broke my heart, not being able to play the game I loved.

Watching the last 3 games of the season standing on the sidelines only drove the point home, how quickly I could lose the one thing I wanted more than anything, to play football. That moment drove me to do all I could to be in the best condition physically and mentally that I could achieve.

The Browns have a huge problem with injuries and just what it's going to take to overcome the problem is up to the owners and brain-trust of those in charge of running the franchise.

LOL - The White Snowflake. That about sums it up for me...

He's gone now because his mom wanted her laptop back.

So you were doing the same workout and conditioning routine as Walter Peyton when you were in high school?

It's time for the Browns change their offensive identity especially in the area of the running game. The Browns need a big, physical back that can move the pile when the offense needs a yard or two.

The Browns should not plan on Chubb being available..he has one helluva mountain to climb. I do not doubt Chub's desire or drive but after 3 major knee surgeries on the same knee, he has a near impossible challenge, imo.

Just a few words...

Criticizing the team is nothing personal against the team, the town of Cleveland or supporters on this site or anywhere else. Actually the opposite. I want us, the Cleveland Browns, to become better and strive for success. Accepting mediocrity isn't part of my character or personality.




The question I want to ask Andrew Berry is how far away is we from being a legit Super Bowl contender?

A couple of new players?
Maybe some changes on our coaches department?
Can we improve our winning mentality and how?

How do we make sur we get the best out of Watson?

Right now his stint with us has been a financial and result wise disaster. This can't continue without consequences.
What's your plan with him and our offensive going forward?

What's the goal for the Browns next season? Super Bowl? Winning the division?
What will be the consequences inside the organization if we don't reach our goals?


When the owners, DePodesta, Berry and Stefanski meet after the season I assume these are the kind of questions they will discuss.



The question I want to ask Kevin Stefanski what's his thoughts about being crushed by a rookie HC and a rookie QB in the first play off round?

Did he prepare the players mentally the right way?
What was his Plan B entering the 4Q when we hadn't made a succefull drive in almost two quarters of the game?


I want my HC showing anger after a loss of that calibre. I hate to see a coach showing almost zero emotions, almost walking away smiling after such a humiliating loss. That's not the reaction I connect with a proven winner. (Show me one successful athlete who don't hate to lose)
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
For example compare this to Jürgen Klopp(Dortmund, Liverpool) and Pep Guardiola (Barcelona, Bayern M and Man City), both highly successfull managers who almost starts a fight inside the dressing room after a humiliating loss.

When David Beckham didn't do his defensive work properly his manager Sir Alex Ferguson kicked a boot in his eye who started bleeding and screamed about how lousy he was in front of the whole Manchester United dressing room. Lowering standard is our worst enemy.

Sir Alex won 13 PL titles, two CL titles, 1 World Cup title for clubs and couple of FA and LC trophys in 26 years. Most successfull club manager ever in Great Britain. The old man sometimes hated losses more then he liked winning. That's a mindset of a natural born winner. No room for excuses. No time for underachievers.

If only you could be his strength and conditioning coach.....

pit...you were one of those wanting to know what my workout routine was...so when I post it you try to start some crap. You can doubt me all you want but what I was able to accomplish is a matter of record, available on the internet.

BTW..I did not say my workout was "the same" as Walter Payton's , DID I..?

How many teams in NFL history have made the playoffs that had 5 starting QB's in that same season? You just keep espousing nonsense.

pit...have I ever claimed that the QB injuries were not a factor in the Browns performance...

But why are the Browns QBs so prone to injuries..?

The injury issue facing the Browns covers every position.

Yet you still haven't provided anything other than anecdotal evidence and questions to substantiate your claim. And BTW, my post you responded to was directed at Floquinho, not you.

Pretty accurate assessment.

We need DW to play well, but we know two things will happen - 1) he won't throw on time and on schedule and 2) he will get hurt.

But the team has a funny way of playing for him. They never got discouraged when he was playing poorly. If he can avoid #2, maybe we'll have a shot.

RB and WR are the biggest holes. I like Ford as well but I like him catching more than running I think. Can't expect Chubb to be Chubb.

Amari is a year older and Moore and Bell are not the answers. Hopefully Tillman takes a leap forward, but based on what he showed this season, I don't think you can on that.

It will be an interesting off season. I think Berry is going to have to work some magic.

I remember after his serious multiple knee injury in college a lot of NFL teams thought they could never "expect Chubb to be Chubb' either after that. That's why he was still sitting there in round 2 for the Browns to draft. They were wrong then and I hope you are wrong now. But I get why you think that.

pit...since the subject matter you and flo were discussing, the Browns QB issues that Stefanski faced this season, I think it was proper to address THE WHY did Stefanski have to so many QBs to train?

Having a healthy QB might be a factor..

Only ONE QB was injured, not 4. Try again. This issue isn't something you have simply been addressing. it has become your place of residence.

rish...say what?....you expect Watson to be injured again...?

I would suggest that the Browns resign Flacco knowing he has been durable and he wants to play.

pit..this injury issue that the Browns have is to the point that some fans are predicting a continuation of the problem. Should the Browns front office plan on Watson being injured and sign Flacco to insure they have a healthy backup to Watson?

Flacco came off the couch and didn't get injured. Using your own logic we must have one helluva strength and conditioning staff to have him in such great shape and playing injury free so quickly after coming off the couch. Prove me wrong.

That is inaccurate. The Browns lost 2 QB's to injury. DTR was concussed in the Bronco's game then came back and got injured in the first Texans game and was then out for the year. They had 2 Injured QB's that did not finish the season.

Point being that you can't train a player not to have a concussion. So while you are correct about the concussion injury, a concussion really has nothing to do with the training and conditioning of the players.

I do agree that Chubb has a tough road to negotiate and there is a very good chance he comes back only a shell of what he was.

That is true. The injury he sustained in mop up duty vs the Texans in December was a hip injury. I think what happened this year with injuries was bad luck as much as anything and playing a brutal schedule. The Browns played 13 of their 17 games vs winning teams. I mean things like Grant Delpit getting hurt and out for the season on the same day he signed a long-term contract. You just can't make that kind of stuff up. Watson getting and MRI on his ancle and just inquiring about his shoulder and then they found the break. I cannot prove it but in the Titans game he was hit hard on his right shoulder on a designed run trying to score at about the 3-yard line. He went out basically the next 3 games. I think the break happened then but was not found until after the Ravens game.

Flacco was good while it lasted, but I think that is over. If he was the back-up, he would probably need more money that we are willing/able to pay, and second, with what he did this year, it would just create a QB controversy from the start.

We just don't need that to start the new season. That said, I wouldn't mind another vet on the squad. I think DTR is more question mark than answer.

I agree to an extent and have said so earlier in the season. You can train the guys to minimize the chance of a concussion, but that falls on the position coaches by teaching safe tackling form, not the conditions coaches.

The DB coach needs to pull tape on Joe Haden. The guy was a tackling machine for a small guy. He kept his head out of danger, wrapped his guy up and brought them down. Maybe even hire him for a month to work with the DB's. He and Hospital Ward are around the same size and skill level, yet Ward can't seem to avoid having his head bounced around like a pinball.

To be straight forward it’s totally irrelevant when the season is over. Excuses don’t win games and who cares about who’s injured or not when we lost by a landslide against a rookie QB. Who do you think is on everybody’s lips. Browns injury record or a young exiting black man with an abundance of charm?

Houston wouldn’t trade Watson back even if we gave them one million picks and a couple of tons of gold. That’s how most people see this trade today. Go figure out why…


The team who win the Super Bowl do this despite their injury list. That’s how a successful organization deal with problems.


What we supporters should do and hopefully our management do the same is stop talking about bad luck and injuries and focus on how we can improve to get better.
What’s the plan with Watson going forward. Another quality receiver? A new left tackle? Maybe shifting scheme and becoming more unpredictable?

I saw a stat that Flacco throw the ball 46 times and C J Stroud only throw it 21 times. Clearly Houston protected their QB a lot better than us. There is room for improvement.

All in all we were ineffective and predictable compared to the Texans who were effective and unpredictable. The stats are crystal clear and the eye test backs it up.

There’re many areas for improvements.

You see when we focus on the wrong thing it leads us nowhere. If our game plan had been flawless and the only thing that was missing was the execution, then we can talk about being without Chubb, but that was not the case.

Our Injuries didn’t help but our loss was a combination of many things were injuries was one only a small part of the components that was missing.

More about the bigger picture.

I think it's wise to take away wishfull thinking when looking at the future and evaluate our key players based on recent stats and facts.

For example.
Cleveland have in my view the third best (or the second worst depending on how we want to see it) QB in our division.
Lamar Jackson's stats speaks for itself and Joe Burrow when healthy has reached the Super Bowl. This season both Watson and Burrow has been injured but a healthy Joe Burrow's has so far been a better player the last couple of seasons.

There're probably six or seven better QB's in our conference than Watson if I look at the results the last couple of seasons.
Patrick Mahomes. Josh Allen. Lamar jackson. Joe Burrow. Aaron Rodgers. (when he's healthy) All of them are a level above Watson based on their teams results. With the numbers from this season it's also fair to make an argument that C J Stroud and Tua Tagovailoa looks better too. It's debatable in some cases but if you ask an neutral supporter the opinions goes both ways.

Kevin Stefanski deserves a lot of credit for his work this season but how good is he if we compare him to other NFL elite coaches?
I leave the answer open but I wouldn't be surprised if there're at least 10 - 15 NFL headcoaches with a better CV based on the last 4 years.

I personally like Amari Cooper for his calm and mature approach but how good is he among other wide receivers? Top 10? Top 15?

Same with David Njuko who I also like a lot for his personality and the way he carry himself but how good is he among other TE? Top 5? Top10?

I ask these questions because I think it's wise to be realistic when we judge our offensive unit. To go all the way we need elite level talents (Top 5-10) on at least a couple of positions. Nick Chubb is elite! Thats indisputable but how about the rest?

Against the Texans we fell short, close to humiliated. I'm not sure Watson is a huge upgrade from Flacco. Probably a higher ceiling but also a lower floor. How is his leadership qualitys and is he someone to count on when the storm is coming? On top of that he has been out for nearly a season with a shoulder injury. He's younger than Flacco but from a mental and a overall health standpoint I'm not sure who's more reliable and have a better mental stabiltity. I understand there're different opinions when it come to such a polarising character but if we judge him fairly where does he stand compared the Mahomes and Allen's of this world?

I hope everybody take this the right way and don't see it as downgrading on our players and coaches. Having different opinions is healthy and being positive is a good thing, as long as it's realistic.

It's just interesting to know how all of you assess our potential based on what we know so far about our offensive line up and what is a realistic view for the future?

What the Browns brain-trust should do at QB and what they are forced to do in an attempt to salvage something from the worst deal in Browns history...two different things.

I expect the Browns to take the cheapest option at QB, more concerned about the Browns owner and his front office trying to save face and salvage something positive from the worst trade ever made by the Browns.

Second suggestion...sign Brissett..!

After looking back on this season, I'd love to know a couple things.

1. Our defense, as talented and well-coached as they were, had some GLARING issues that came back to bite them in the butt in the most important game. To some degree, the magic did just run out, but you can also see why this game in Houston fit with some of the trends over the year.

2. IMO, Watson's leash is REALLY short. After watching Flacco come in here and put up the performances he did (flawed though they were) with basically no familiarity with the O, I hope we don't hear anything about any sort of "rust" when Watson starts back up.

the defense was often gashed by quick throws, misdirections, quick hitters, and flood concepts (man beaters)

Houston really went after Newsome/Thornhill/Hickman in coverage .. they are not good on guys like Collins

The fact the Browns needed five starting QB's isn't an excuse, it's a fact. Those are two different things you seem to be having a problem distinguishing between. The massive amount of injuries is also a fact. Being forced to play the fourth, fifth and even sixth OT on the depth chart at the end is also a fact. But when people wish to label facts as excuses we see responses such as yours.

I know that the Browns have a totally different background than many other organizations but in the last 48h both Dallas and Philly’s HC and QBs on the chopping board because of not meeting expectations. Unfortunately for these guys that’s how ruthless a owner/FO must be to maintain long term success when the standard are sliding downhill.

The uncomfortable question to ask is who’s the players and coaches in our organization that don’t have what it takes to go all the way/winning a Super Bowl? If we’re going to improve standards and get better results we need to install that mindset and not be afraid to make changes when needed. To keep the b-line on the field for the sake of it takes us nowhere.

From my perspective the Browns need at least a couple of new warriors with killing instinct in their roster. The collapse against the Texans was unacceptable and send all the wrong signals. That’s why we need a couple of new ruthless lions who’s willing to fight with their body on the line to the bitter end. More Njuko’s and JOK’s and less snowflakes.

That also goes for the coaches. I want Stefanski to have a Titanic mentality where he’s last one leaving the ship when it’s sinking. Not someone who jump into the first life saving boat and hide himself under a blanket.

I don’t say he did but I think some of you get what I mean. We need players and coaches who sends the right type of signals.

I don't want to sound insulting but damn.

What the hell are you talking about?

The building of a roster is more than a magic wand. Do you know anything about how decisions are made by a GM when it comes to free agency and the draft?

======================================================================================================
"That’s why we need a couple of new ruthless lions who’s willing to fight with their body on the line to the bitter end. More Njuko’s and JOK’s and less snowflakes.

That also goes for the coaches. I want Stefanski to have a Titanic mentality where he’s last one leaving the ship when it’s sinking. Not someone who jump into the first life saving boat and hide himself under a blanket."
=========================================================================================================

Utter nonsense. Do you think we should add an aptitude and personality test when we draft players? Let's figure out the logistics of that. As the draft unfolds and players are selected. Maybe we should ask a free agent as we look at positions of need. Mister free agent Right Tackle are you a ruthless lion or a snowflake?

This is the NFL. It is professional football. Do you really think that you with your background can look at the internet and know this business?
Google how to build a NFL roster and now you have a NFL doctorate.

The Rooney family has been running the Steelers for three generations. The Steelers last won a playoff game in 2017.

Professional sports is the highest level of competition backed by billionaire owners. The business of professional football represents billions upon billions of dollars.

And you are going to tell them how to run their business?

Please.

He's blathering.

I think the wrong signal is taking off-season marching orders from 1 game. If that's what we're doing, then it's Schwartz and not Stefanski who's on the chopping block as it was the defense that really poo'd the bed.

The other big thing that I think is wrong with your post is that just 1 year ago Njoku would've been on the list of snowflakes vs being a lion.

I don't understand what you're saying about KS not going down with the Titanic. I don't see how he's jumped into a boat and hiding under a blanket. Maybe I'm missing something, but I feel that's maybe a bad metaphor for what you're trying to say.

When you have HOF HC's on the chopping block for not meeting expectations, it would only stand to reason that Stefanski should be seriously looked at too.

Not unlike the stance the team took with Mayfield, does Stefanski have the skills and fortitude to actually take the Browns to a Super Bowl or are the Browns just an occasional playoff team with Stefanski at the helm?

Are the Browns spinning their wheels holding onto a guy that might never get the team past the first or second round on the playoffs?

Should Haslam at least take a look at a Harbaugh or Belicheck? If a Tomlin or McCarthy become available, should they be looked at also? There's a number of coaches available that have led their teams to a Super Bowl.

With all the money that Haslam has spent over the last 3-years (almost 70M more than any other team), is the next move an upgrade at HC?

Over the last 4-years, Stefanski's rein, the Browns have posted the worst record in the AFC North.

Total games reg season and playoffs the last 4-years in the AFC North:
Baltimore, 43-27-0 .614 w/1 AFC North Championship (still playing in year 4)
Pittsburgh, 40-29-1 .579 w/1 AFC North Championship
Cincinnati, 40-32-1 .555 w/2 AFC North Championships
Cleveland, 38-32-0 .543 w/0 AFC North Championships

Thank heaven you are who you are and have no influence or impact on the Browns.

How many of those HC's had to depend on four starting QB's this season? Some of you guys kill me.

Hickman REALLY got picked on. He may step up to being better in the next couple of years, but I think this is another case where injuries exposed us.

Most of the big plays we gave up this season were by virtue of two things:
- The defense is aggressive by nature. That wins a LOT, but it can be a liability as well.
- miscommunication or players out of place. The more backups that were in, the more this happened. Especially with our Safeties.

Stroud really picked on Newsome as well.

My question for you is what’s you think is missing for us to win for example the conference final.

Only more quality players or maybe some changes among our coaches?

Do you still think the Browns winning culture is optimal or how do you explain our latest collapse against the Texans?

Final question and a tough one. Is Watson good enough to win a Super Bowl and if so what tools does he need to have to have such success?

What chopping block? The media chopping block??

Are you predicting both Dallas and Philly will fire their coaches and QBs? Are you predicting that will result in "long term success"?

You can't really be using the past to point at this "long term success"... The Cowboys haven't won more than a single game in any postseason appearance since '95. The Eagles took 57 years to win their title.

Something's sliding downhill.

Remaining somewhere close to healthy in response to the first two.

I think the winning culture is in tact and the last game collapse will only fuel the players for next season. Most people with an ounce of common sense, including the players, realize the obstacles they had to overcome to ever make the playoffs to begin with and just how unlikely that was after losing Chubb, watson and both starting OT's. and that's not even mentioning the injury report that made it look like someone had blasted the locker room with a bomb.

I have no idea if watson is good enough to win a SB. The last few games he played combined with a good defense suggests yes.

The team collapsed in the second half. The responsibility to keep the spirit up and fight to the bitter end is on the HC. Head is the key word. Who do you think should be responsible if the players don’t respond the right way?

I don’t know your thoughts but my eye test saw in the 4Q a team with a hanging heads and poor body language. I didn’t either see encouraging signals from our HC, more was he slowly walking around for himself. I maybe wrong but I honestly didn’t see any winning mentality in his way of coaching. I know you don’t like that answer but I just telling you my impressions.

Both Dallas and Philly started the season like two SB contenders and finished it badly. Any thoughts why? Or is it like us where injuries is the whole reason? (sarcasm)

Thanks for proving my point. That bears absolutely no comparison to what happened here in Cleveland. You used them as examples to why Stefanski should be fired: "that’s how ruthless a owner/FO must be to maintain long term success". Please tell me what I'm missing without going out on a tangent.

What winning culture is in tact? What are you talking about? Exactly what have we won the last 20 years or so or do you count a few regular winning seasons as a huge success? Just curious.

There’s absolutely nothing in this organization’s history the last 20 years that is connected to a winning culture from my perspective. Winners wins trophy’s and division titles. Seriously? WTF…

I have never suggested that Stefanski should get fired the last couple of months, in fact the opposite. Stop making up lies.

Changing coaches can be a lot of things without firing the HC.

Secondly. I didn’t prove anything to you because Dallas and Philly was out coached and out played by a better team and a better prepared HC. That’s why they’re discussions about their future.

FATE. For you about Dallas and Philly.

So now you want to prove to me Sirianni sucks?

lol



Sorry I didn't see those as glaring endorsements for Stefanski. I don't know what I was thinking. Don't cry though, I'm not trying to "make up lies" about you. If you've been endorsing Stefanski I may have read right over it because of things like:


So, you mean Super Bowl or clean house? Or will one playoff victory keep them off the "chopping block"?

First you talk about this season. When that doesn't work you expand it to the past 20 years. Typical. I'm talking about a HC taking a roster whose injury report looks like the locker room was hit by a bomb and had to use 4 different QB's to an 11-6 record and a playoff appearance. I have no clue what the hell you are talking about.


When you can't refute this season was a minor miracle you resort to history. Typical bait and switch con game. Seriosly, WTF.

Again, which one of those teams had to use four starting QB's this season? I bet you were the dodge ball champion of your graduating class weren't you?

I think Stefanski coached his tail off this year. A coach can't be a CotY candidate and be on the hot seat at the same time.

But I also think what you're saying can be true if the team stumbles out the gate next year and regresses. As impressive as this year was, given the circumstances, it still doesn't erase Stefanski's history of underperforming when his team should be winning.

j/c:

I swear we've been dealing with John Dorsey, Hue Jackson, and Freddie Kitchen burner accounts the past few days.

I get the 4 QB thing everyone keeps referring to in this forum but if you were honest, 3 of the QB's were added and played only because the person in front of them sucked to high heaven. That is not uncontrollable injury but self-inflicted wounds due to not having the necessary backup quality. Actually, the Browns only had 1 QB that was injured that caused the team to go to the backup. All of the other QB's that were played was due to horrible production on the field and the Browns signing multiple players to salvage the situation. In hindsight, the reason the Browns had to use all those QB's was a poor decision made in the preseason keeping only a rookie as the backup and was compounded by another poor decision by signing PJ Walker.

The FO and Stefanski should be responsible for those errors and poor evaluation rather than commended for having to use 4 QB's. Flacco was available during June, July and August but just like with Brissett, the FO thought they could get away by going cheap and it backfired. Though it's true the Browns used 5 QB's, it was self-induced and nothing to do with the injuries the team suffered outside of Watson.

There is no "bigger picture."

What we have here is failure in understanding.

KC and the Eagles played in a close SB last year. Both teams regressed. KC is still alive after beating a weakened Miami team.

It is really hard to win a game in the NFL on a weekly basis. It is exceptionally hard to win a Super Bowl.

From some of the comments on this thread. I don't think some people really understand that.

The posts show a complete lack of understanding of what really takes place in professional sports. Zero knowledge of what good or bad coaching is.

Mostly a lack of knowing what they don't know.

Are you so fragile and sensitive that you have to elevate yourself on internet to feel important. I hope the “victory” fits well into your trophy cabinet.

From now on I will call you the Champ or TMWKB.

Thanks.

For the last two years the Atlanta Braves have been eliminated in the first series of post season baseball. This past season the offense set historical numbers. The Braves finished with the best record in baseball during the 2023 regular season.

Baseball financially has an entirely different structure than football. One team had a payroll of $358 mil and another team payroll was $42 mil.

The team that spent $358 mil ended the regular season in last place.

The reason I bring this up is how professional sports are run is complicated. It is ultra competitive.

Your view of the Browns is like Disneyland with heroes and villains. You want to lay the blame somewhere from the loss of a single game. Then make it some kind of a reflection on the coaches and players.

Have you ever been part of a sports team ?

These are athletes mostly in their twenties who play at the highest level of competition in their sport. Do you know their journey? How many teams and coaches that they have played for? The level of competition they play against. The coaching they have received since they began playing and what they get from the professionals at this level.

You make posts about snowflakes and ruthless lions. Go back to the Lion King it will be more entertaining.

Browns culture.

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/arti...s_of_the_nfl_offseason/s1_16697_39825245

The metaphor about snowflakes and lions is to simplify what kind o characters that's needed in this team. When the team chokes against the Texans questions must be asked. Why? Who? What do we need to don't end up there again?
Are you so less oriented in sports that you don't understand such simple metaphors Champ? I thought you knew it all...

Secondly stop lecture me or anybody else about something you clearly don't know.
Express your opinion and let others express theirs. Acting like you're some kind of oracle is just pathetic and childish, but hey Champ, being an internet warrior suits you well. At least you bring smiles to my day.

At the end of the day the Browns lost and they lost with a crash. Playing well in the regular season is good but when we finally get invited and the party starts our team just enter the gates before getting thrown out again. Well same old sam old..
When comparing with the other 31 NFL franchaises the Browns are one of the worst organizations, result wise, the last 20 years. Is that the definition of an organization with a winning culture? Just asking so so we're on the same page... Champ.

Trading for DSW has been so far a failure of epic proportions, what does it tells us about our FO? Next season our cap space will be limited and that will again reduce our chances to improve our results. Is that good business?

Baker was part of our first and only play off win in years and then get injured, but continued to be available and put his health on the line. His reward by Berry and Stefanski was to be kicked out of the town, Is that how you build a winning culture?
Their next move was to trade for a serial abuser with a character that has been questioned by a respected judge and for that he was suspended for more than half of the season. The next season he must go to the operation table after being used when he was not 100% fit. Another key decision that goes totally wrong, again.
Do you see a pattern?

Two seasons later The Browns are losing and Baker is flying high and wins his play off game with the Bucs, post the Tom Brady era. At the same time Stefanski use 4 different QBs, is that your definition of successful planning?

Results don't lie Champ! You win or you're out.
Guess what. The Browns supporters are once again left with zero trophy's and a disappointing end of the season game. At the same time the misfit, Baker Mayfield, is still partying under the sun in Florida with his team. Maybe it's Karma!
(and NO, I don't want him back! He's doing fine in Tampa, let him enjoy the good weather and his new upcoming contract, he's worth it)

The playoffs had a total of 14 teams make the playoffs. All of the teams except two (Browns/Steelers) started their opening day QBs for rounds one and two.

"Character needed on the team." I guess Andrew Berry needs to audition Orcs from Lord of the Rings.

We need really mean guys.

We need to have them sign a contract that is binding and states you are not allowed to be injured.

Because when 26% of the payroll is on the IR and you are playing your fourth quarterback you are at a slight disadvantage.

To call this 2023 Browns team chokers frankly pisses me off.

If you had any idea of what was involved for the Browns to win eleven games this season. Instead of pissing on this team; you would applaud them.

Your "questions must be asked" schtick is getting old. The FO and HC did an excellent job putting a winning product on the field and getting us to the playoffs despite a roster gutted with injuries.

Name a coach that's gotten past the first round of the playoffs with their 5th qb. Soccer coaches don't count, the NFL doesn't put you on IR for paper cuts and skeeter bites.

You need to send this post to the owner who obviously sees it a lot differently than you do since he just fired a good portion of the offensive coaches.

The Steelers started (3) QBs...made the playoffs...lost, but were competitive...they didn't spend 50+MM on a QB and didn't trade ANY draft capital to do that.

To your point, had we signed Flacco instead of PJ Walker, we wouldn't have had (4) starters (unless Flacco also got hurt)...Driskell starting against Cincy was the definition of outlier.

Both 'sides' of the argument are making good points - when not peeing in each others' Wheaties - as '23 was YET ANOTHER Browns season that ended with as many questions as answers. We've been dealing with that STR.

We still need better/tougher players - even though we've spent more $$$ than any other team in the league;

Our FO brought in the best depth that we've had STR - although still lacking;

Despite good player acquisitions, we have a glaring hole at WR after Cooper (and that since Training Camp);

Our HC managed to keep this ship afloat despite the crazy setbacks that seemed to occur every 15 minutes;

Despite that ^ and the appearance of a winning culture, most fans seem to believe the HC should hire someone to do the job that he's supposed to be the best at;

At many times, we looked the part that was our record;

We do not KNOW what we have in our starting QB come training camp - such a familiar feeling;

We do not have a #1 draft pick...again.

I'll close by saying that BOTH sides of the argument may be correct...it's not one way or the other. There are legit reasons to run it back with the same coaches (although that's already not happening) and FO...just like there are legit reasons to expect both to do/be better (in '24)...and if they don't, it's time to consider moving on. While this ^ is a ridiculously familiar feeling, it's not as gut-wrenching as it's been all too often...maybe STR.

I have zero problems with those who was on the field in Houston, contributed and gave their all.
Hats off to JOK! I have huge respect for Kareem Hunt as a RB, great character on the field. My man David Njuko and Amari Cooper also is worth a mention, really good guys. I probably forgot a few but not for a second do I blame those who showed character and fighting spirit.

The problem is Champ, they were not enough. We had players who underperformed compared to their normal ability. Maybe they where nervous, had a bad day or, maybe maybe they're chokers, personalities who crumble under pressure. (their is a great book about that written by the norwegian psychologist Willie Railo - he goes into depth with what mental pressure can do to your body and concentration - he talks about the 80% rule and how important mental preparation is for the outcome of your performance. Some are born winners/overachievers (Michael Jordan of the worlds) and other are typical 80%, their ability goes down 10-20% under pressure because of variable mental blocks)

Look at the stats Champ! C J Stroud was protected and only throw the ball half of the time than Flacco. That reduced the possibility of turnovers by 50%. The Texans also acted very smart and turned our strength (man coverage) to our weakness.
Offensively we din't produce enough. Flacco's two turnovers was a combination of being over used, bad play calling and a typical Joe Flacco performance.

I go back to what I said before Champ! Injuries is part of the game. Even if you're 100% correct about your assessment we still lost and we lost badly. That's the bottom line. Stefanski didn't have his best day, but hey I don't want him sacked because of that. The mistakes was made before the season started.

It's not about sacking the whole organization but we need to improve on certain areas. We need more players like JOK, "warriors". Stefanski has many good attributes but he also has holes in his coaching style. Our preparation against Houston is up for debate.

As much as you would like to throw shade in his direction, Stefanski has no say over who this FO signs.

You raise a stink when you claim they don't try to fix things and raise a stink when they do.

We haven't figured out what we're gong to call you yet but you can bet your ass when we do it will be a doozy.

Call him by his name -- The White Snowflake.

First of all, I'm not raising a stink, I'm using my right to comment on it. Secondly, they haven't fixed anything as of yet - they just fired 3 people that were not the decision makers. Do you honestly believe that the Browns are going to bring in a real OC, change the offense, and have Stefanski be just the HC? If not, then is current OC taking the hit for the poor QB play because he was also the QB coach? Is Stump taking the hit because Chubb got hurt and he had inferior players to coach compared to Chubb? Njoku had his first season where he lived up to expectations at least most of the year but after waiting 7 years for him to deliver they fire the TE coach? Do you honestly believe that these 3 guys were responsible for not getting to the expectation level expected? JMHO, classifying these firings as fixing things couldn't be further from the truth - their scapegoats.

Unlike yourself I'm not going to make accusations and jump to any conclusions until I see how it plays out. And second of all I'm using my right to respond to your post as I see fit. Could they? Should they? Are they? Just a lot of posturing.

Likewise, so is 2024 season Super Bowl, Conference Championship or Division Champs. Can't get any more posturing than that!

Well if not that you will be back here the same time next year whining about it.

I agree. The coach may tell the GM he needs another running back but he doesn't dictate which RB.

The coach doesn't dictate a player to be cut from the roster, but he might tell the GM he is never going to play the guy because he isn't good.

Let me ask you this Steve.

Just who stood out for us at TE the last two seasons. Who did TC coach up? Your complaining about David taking seven years well he was TE coach for 2 years and a Browns offensive assistant coach the two years before that. Who did he develop? Who did he improve?

How about Stump? I didn't want to see him go but other than Chubb and Hunt, who has he developed? Who has he made better?

AVP... well I'm biased on him. Never have been a fan of his.

When the Eagles traded in the draft to get Jalen Carter and then later acquired Swift from the Lions, "experts" said this was a near perfect team with almost no weaknesses. They really underperformed. WE were predicted to finish 4th in our division, some saying 6-7 wins max. WE win 11 with a slew of injuries and our season is a failure?

When you really do a deep dive on the Browns 2023 season.

It was miraculous. We won games that seemed impossible at the time. I was stunned when we beat an undefeated Niners team with PJ turnover Walker.

The second half of the game against the Ravens in Baltimore. That was amazing.

When you really look at the injuries. They were to players who were critical to team success. When you lose a star the backup is a big drop in talent.

When you lose three players to one position. It cuts deep into the roster.

The tackle play by seasons end was atrocious. Losing three safeties is going to cause trouble.

Injuries are a part of football that happens. However, they can ruin a season if they fall in a critical fashion.

I enjoyed this season. It was exciting to be in the mix as the regular season ended.

I give praise to the coaching staff and the players.

Of course it was disappointing to lose in the playoffs. It made clear where improvements are needed.

I am glad that the team is making changes to improve. I am looking forward to next year.

How can the Browns win a Super Bowl?

These are the quarterbacks that remain.

Lamar, Stroud, Love, Purdy, Baker, Goff, Mahomes, Allen.

We need quarterback play on that level at least.

If the Browns make the playoffs. They need to be lucky enough to have their key talent healthy. It is very difficult to win without your best players.

You need to have team balance. It takes all units - Special Teams, Defense and Offense. You must be sound in all areas.

You need to be well coached. That is the entire coaching staff working together in all phases.

IMO the defense has to be able to bring consistent pressure on the opposing quarterback. Playoff quarterbacks will beat you if given time to throw.

On offense you need balance but you have to be able to score with some consistency. You have to win the turnover battle.

Field goal kickers can win big games. Hopkins was golden for us this year.

I think you need about eight or so pro bowl level players spread around the team. The rest of the team has to be at least average at their positions.

I mentioned coaching but the players need to buy into being a team. Selfish, disruptive players can hurt a team. Team chemistry is important. Coaches can help build that chemistry but players also build that.

Lots of things have to fall into place. 32 teams all reaching for the same goal. Money cannot buy a Super Bowl. It takes an entire organization all pulling in the same direction.

Well said, Bone...

It takes everything you listed and then some.

Understanding that someone lacks the ability to use the context of all that happened this season in evaluating just how successful this team was given those circumstances doesn't mean someone is sensitive or fragile. They also don't need to be a Champ to figure out such basic things.

It is really hard to win in the NFL.

I have been watching the Browns since 1960. I was in eleventh grade in 1964 when the Browns won the NFL Championship. It never entered my mind that we would not win another.

Here we are in 2024. It is really hard to win a title. Players, coaches, and careers can go by. Nobody wins a title because they are due. Nobody cares about how long you have waited. You have to earn it.

I have friends in their graves who wanted nothing more than to win one title.

I understand frustration and criticism. However, I never waver in my support of the team. 0-16 and I am studying the draft to figure out how we can turn it around?

It bothers me when others are only critical. Or, those who do nothing but complain and wallow in the misery of the past. Never giving credit when credit is due.

Those critical of this season fall into that category.

We finally have a good roster. Proven by the pro bowl announcements. We have a good head coach that is recognized by those who closely follow the league. We have a good GM who has made strides in bringing talent to the team.

IMO we are headed in the right direction. All the above guarantees nothing.

I am hoping that somehow some way we can make that magical run and win it all.

Guess what! I agree 100%.

So let’s have a look at the Browns and what’s needed to be a SB contender..

1. Do we have an elite quarterback 2024?

My comment. First of all he has to be available. Secondly he has to be mentally stable so he can overcome being without other key players and be consistent enough to overcome bad days, lack of form or other obstacles. Right now we don’t even know what kind quality we have to our disposal when our so called franchise QB comes back. That’s the uncomfortable situation we’re dealing with no matter what kind of hopes we have.

2. Do we have enough elite wide receivers?

My comment. One good wide receiver isn’t enough and we need at least one more elite receiver who can produce similar numbers as Amari Cooper.

3. Stefanski is depending on an elite RB to fully use his whole playbook. That means that Nick Chubb need to come back to his very best when he returns. That’s an uncertainty even if I think he will be his old himself when healthy.

4. According to MKK we didn’t meet many teams with an elite QB 2023. Burrow wasn’t his old himself when we met the first time and the Niners was without Samuel the whole game and McGaffrey in the second half, that influenced the results but credit to Schwartz for almost shutting them down. The bottom line is that when we finally met Houston our defense was exposed and not as good as expected. In 2024 our schedule is harder so maybe we need to damper our expectations regarding our defense being the best unit again in 2024.

5. Our salary cap space. How will that affect us?

That’s a few concerns from my perspective.

Did you understand what this team did and what kind of schedule they actually played? They played 12 of 17 games vs teams with winning records. I don't think we should minimize what our team actually accomplished. They lost in the playoffs. It sucked but it happened. The 2023 schedule the toughest schedule this team has played. The AFC North was the first division since 1935 to have all 4 teams have winning records. They played the AFC South. Suppose to be weak right? Wrong. 3 of the 4 teams had winning records. They played the NFC West. Yes, all 4 teams had winning records in 2023.

A couple of observations:

[1] You asked me a question which I answered. But you never bothered to answer my question so I guess it didn't fit the narrative?
[2] You've frequently used managers from other sports as an example of why KS falls short ... [a] I'm not sure other sports translate well [b] Alex Ferguson was perhaps the best club soccer manager in history - certainly of the Premiership, so hardly a fair comparison [c] Alex Ferguson's heyday was 3 deades ago ... what he did and how he bullied and treated players wouldn't be tolerated today. [d] Ferguson had an absolutely amazingly talented team.
[3] If you want to feel as if this season was a disappointment - have at it. But don't lecture any other more rationael person(s) and fan(s) who recognize how amazing it was for many reasons.

Sorry but I think I didn't saw your answer or I forgot about it. My bad. I has no intention whatsoever to shy away from critical questions or those with other views. Totally my fault.

You learn by being observant and learn from other greats, it can be head coaches in American football, or managers from other sports.


Secondly I don't want lecture anybody! Absolutely not but being respectful goes two ways. You give and take with similar acceptance. Maybe it's a culture thing because where I live we often use lots of sarcasm and reverse answers when we think something goes without saying. I deeply apologize if I have offended someone because that was not my intention. I realize now that critizising this organisation is a sensitive subject where strong emotions is involved and maybe now is not the right time. My bad.

Off subject.
The reason Sir Alex was so successful was because he evolved with time. His way of manage his team in 1999 was not the same as when he retired. In his last season he was like a old grandfather who took care of his grand children, it's hard to describe for someone without children and grandchildren because getting softer in certain areas comes with experience and a bigger understanding of humans and life in general. He retired as a manager in 2013 after his 13 PL title when his wife Cathy lost her sister and she felt alone. That's how a gentleman with principles handle life when something unexpected happen. The younger generation probably laugh but part of his success was his strong beliefs of principles and high standard, and that followed him all the way until today. Now at 80 years of age he's a senior adviser to his former club.

Maybe evolving with time is why Stefanski has gotten so much better as well.

That is an important point Pit that is often overlooked.

Nothing stays the same. We all change over time.

Experience is the greatest teacher because experience teaches you the hard way. When you touch the hot iron. It leaves a mark on your finger and in your head.

Often first time head coaches do not get a second chance. When they do it is a valuable experience.

One of the attributes I like about KS is I believe he is humble. I do not think he has a hard time looking in the mirror and being self critical. In his time here I have seen him change. I have seen him drop plays from the playbook that don't work. I have seen his demeanor change.

The head coach of an NFL team is a demanding difficult job that has a multitude of different responsibilities. Some are things we never see.

Growth from experience is valuable if what is learned can make you better at your job. First you have to be humble enough to accept criticism and know there is room for improvement. Some people do not have that gene.

The Browns have some tough sledding around the corner. Difficult decisions in an extremely competitive environment.

I think we are in a better situation to face those decisions with KS than we would be looking to hire another shiny object.

I certainly agree with you. I've often seen the argument that continuity is the biggest answer to everything. But I have never bought into that idea. If you have the wrong people at the helm no amount of time will change that. Continuity in and of itself is not the answer to a problem. In looking back at all of the men who were HC's here since 1999 before Stefanksi, none have accomplished anything that can convince me that sticking with any of them for the sake of continuity would have yielded good results.

That list consists of Chris Palmer, Butch Davis, Romeo Crennel, Eric Mangini, Pat Shurmur, Rob Chudzinski, Mike Pettine, Hue Jackson and Freddie Kitchens. Of course there was Gregg Williams as an interim HC.

Just reading that list makes me throw up in my mouth just a little bit.

But Stefanski is certainly different IMO. While Rome wasn't built in a day it's obvious to me that construction is moving along nicely and nearing completion. That's something completely different than anything I've seen here since 1999.

In European soccer there’re mostly two sorts of successful managers. Those who have their own philosophy and those who’re pragmatic and adapt to their players and other circumstances.

Jürgen Klopp/Liverpool and Pep Guardiola/ManCity has their own philosophy that they build their team around. The way they play is their strongest part and the backbone of their success. Either it’s TikiTaka or Heavy Metal football. On the other side of the spectrum you José Mourinho and probably in the middle you have Carlo Ancelotti and Zenadine Zidane. Two great man managers whose biggest strengths , apart from being great tacticians, is to handle stars and water carrier and make them work together.

In American football I think it’s similar. If I generalize a bit then Bill Belichick is probably the pragmatist and Kyle Shanahan is leaning more to being a philosoph coach. Please correct me if that’s a wrong take.

The question I have is if Stefanski is a pragmatist or a coach with a strong philosophy?

My take on this is that an organization on their way up benefits more from having a clear and obvious philosophy than having a pragmatist as a HC. Why’s that? Developing a functional system takes time. You need players with a special skill set on most key positions. You need that a the almost all in the roster buy into that philosophy and accepts that the system in the star of the game, not individuals. That takes time but the benefits is that the system isn’t hanging on one individual player. Another benefit is that the transition from one star player to another is much smoother. A organization like the Browns who operate in a small market need a better ratio of success when trading/draft then an established organization who operate in a bigger market. That’s why a philosophy based system is easier to sustain than a pragmatic system built around certain players.

When we trade for a specific type of QB like Watson we need to ask ourselves what kind of system, philosophy, that suits his game most. That means that we have to adapt our system, philosophy, to him and not the other way around. Is he gets injured or the deal doesn’t work we have to change parts of our offensive line if we change quarterback. Like when Flacco arrived after Watson got injured. Almost same players but a different outcome.

I hope Stefanski and Berry are strong enough to believe in their own ideas, philosophy, and draft/trade players from that perspective. I’m not sure if they had this in mind when Watson become available and maybe that’s why we have to change our OC and so on. I have fears that Stefanski will realize this problem later down the road and have to adapt to his QB instead vice verse. Maybe I’m totally wrong but that’s my interpretation of the situation.

He is currently overhauling his offensive staff to help tailor the offense around watson's strengths. So I'm not sure why this is even a question at this point. And considering the fact that he is doing this, if you are willing to digest that fact, what conclusion do you come to?

It’s the only way, but the downside of doing that is that you put all the eggs in the same basket.

To succeed Stefanski needs to hold the power by an iron fist. Letting any sort of power heading to Watson could end up in a disaster, both for him personally and the team. Let’s say that we don’t live up to expectations and we’re out of the playoff picture already in end of November. On one side you have a guaranteed $60M QB and on the other side you have less expensive parts of the team.

I think Kevin can do it (keeping power) and implement his or his OC ideas the right way but he needs to be careful so the history of Watson in Houston don’t repeat itself. As soon as the sh*t hit the fan everyone is on their own.

Myself, I do not believe in future tripping when so many factors remain unknown.

The final roster for 2024 will not be in place until May. The off season has free agency and the draft. Trades are also in play.

Right now we don't even know the complete coaching staff.

In regards to DW. He should be involved in the process of evaluating the OC candidates. It is important because DW will be the guy running the offense on the field.

In addition he will need to be able to communicate well with the OC. That relationship is important. At some point they need to be in sync.

NFL rosters turn over about a third of their rosters every year. There are so many factors involved in the outcome of a season it is impossible to speculate about "what ifs" like November here in January.

What if we win the Super Bowl next year.

JMHO, the expectation level will be so high next year that anything less than a Super Bowl appearance could generate a house cleaning so fast our heads will spin.

The Browns have set themselves up for that because of the over performance of this year's team. Every time anyone talks about the use of 4 (5) QB's, the massive number of injuries to the offense & defense and going 11-6 with (0-1 playoffs) would clearly set expectations of no less than 12-13 wins, an AFC North crown, and a Super Bowl appearance.

Read the posts on this forum, the number of continual comments about how great the Browns would have done with Watson, Chubb, and both starting tackles this year is overwhelming. Don't you think Haslam is thinking the same thing? There is literary almost no excuse left in that bucket that will be acceptable for not achieving better than this year's results.

The last time our Browns were thought this highly of was in 2021 and we all seen what happened then. JMHO, and I've been consistent, Stefanski doesn't do well with super high expectations. I'm also concerned about Watson having too much say in what happens going forward but that's speculation on my part. It's early and I realize that but what I am sure of is the expectation level will be very very high next year and that that's not a "what if." The pressure on Watson, Stefanski, and Berry will start week 1 and will intensify as each week passes. The Browns have 9 games scheduled against teams with winning records in 2023 and 8 of those games are against playoff teams from the 2023 season. That leaves 8 games against teams that had a losing record which includes CIN (2) and the LAC (1) who also lost elite QB's to injury in 2023.

So, we have to play in the SB because we did so goodly this year?

Yep, SB or bust.

And we better win it by 20... or heads are gonna roll. We'll be kicking heads down the road instead of just cans.

"Whether it is because of the AFC North or the lack of optimism with QB Deshaun Watson taking back over for QB Joe Flacco, DraftKings has very low odds on Cleveland winning the Super Bowl next year:


For reference, the Jaconsonville Jaguars, Chicago Bears, Los Angeles Chargers, Atlanta Falcons and New York Jets have better odds than the Browns +3500 despite not making the playoffs this year.

Cleveland is in the bottom half of the league, 18th best odds overall, which indicates DraftKings believes they won’t even make the NFL playoffs next year."

I guess their expectations are a little different

I don't know who's examining those odds. +3500 indicates they think the Browns won't even make the playoffs? The Browns were +3500 this year after having been one of eight teams to actually make the playoffs.

Pre season SB odds don't really have anything to do with whether a team is expected to make the playoffs.

"Stefanski doesn't do well with super high expectations."

Really?

Whose expectations? Yours?

The AFC North in 2023 had all four teams over 500. Three played with injuries to their quarterback. The Ravens are in the AFC championship game.
Joe Burrow was injured most of the year.

Why would the Browns be favored to win the North?

DW and how he will play is unknown. Nick Chubb's health and when he will return is unknown.

The Browns are searching for an OC. We don't even know the scheme we will be running. And the Browns should have higher expectations than the Ravens?

In the AFC here are the quarterbacks: Lamar, Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Herbert, Lawrence, Stroud, Tua.

What do we know now about how DW will perform?

So you refused to answer I straight forward question. I get it. Now do go on and give is another lesson about soccer coaches.

What, you don't like hearing about how Sir Lord Lancelot or whoever had his team winning futball games in Europe?

I just skimmed that part since it wasn't actually relative to the debate. I thought he said Prince Andrew.

Regarding the "Big Picture."

I think for all who post on this Board it is worth your time to really listen to Andrew Berry's press conference today.

I thought he was honest and truthful regarding the culture and their approach to management.

There are some topics that at this time are not appropriate to answer.

Pit penned a post that I commented on that I thought was extremely important. It was about individual growth.

When KS and AB took over as HC and GM they were first timers in that capacity. IMO both have grown. Andrew brought up a topic about how individuals are regarded in terms of how they internalize personal growth. It is an important criterion for success.

I have no crystal ball. Just the opposite actually. IMO this season could easily have been a ten loss season. I recognize how competitive the NFL is and how many great players and coaches are a part of the NFL. No two seasons are the same. As AB mentioned going forward is not like game 19 for the Browns.

2024 will come with many challenges. I have no clue what record we will have.

I do believe we have a sound organization in place led by the right Head Coach and GM.

That's the craziest thing about all this 'reaction'.

People use the here and now, in the most narrow of scope (one game reaction while ignoring the season), then use that to predict problems in the future. While totally ignoring the road that has led to our greatest success in 25 years.

I know this is "not good enough", but the bottom line is 31 other teams will be saying the same on February 12th.

Quit trying to use the arc to predict doom. It should be making you feel happy and hopeful, not fearing for the worst.

I cannot understand that type of perspective.

Everything comes with a condescending attitude toward the organization as a whole. KS mostly likely will win and is deserving of Coach of the Year.

Instead of taking pride in that and being positive about the team going forward. It is a never ending campaign about how terrible KS is. About cap hell and the sky will fall. Any type of negative angle that can be used to point out how the team is doomed. Contracts. Draft picks. Play calling. How great other teams are. How great other head coaches are. How we should win with backups. How everything is an excuse.

If all your interest is about looking for failure and how the Browns will fail. Why bother? Is it really worth it? We win four in a row. Nothing to write. Lost to the Texans and like "Oh boy." Now I can write about how we failed and it is all on KS. Hooray we lost.

I wonder if steve should just attach himself to the Super Bowl winner each year. No. Way too much celebrating. Not enough to complain about.

When people fail to use context and instead label it as excuses they're telling you a lot. if they use that type of mentality in every part of their life I feel sorry for their children.

"Well Jimmy you didn't win the state championship in wrestling so you suck! I don't want to hear the excuse that your hamstring was injured most of the season."

"But dad, don't you think that's a little harsh?"

"No Jimmy, excuses are for losers!"

Interesting bashing to say the least.

So, what are your expectations for 2024?

If Stefanski does win Coach of the Year, is the level of expectation a last place finish the next 2 years as previously demonstrated?

Whether you want to admit it or not, the Browns have invested heavily in a number of players but none more than the 230M in Watson. With the Browns having come off a season where they qualified for the playoffs playing their 4th choice at QB, to the simplest mind, wouldn't you expect better with an elite QB being paid 230M and a defending "Coach of the Year" in place for next season? A solid offensive line with the return of injured players and the top RB in football included. Afterall, Berry has an open checkbook so wouldn't the expectations be that he fills the positions of need?

If not, I guess the question is then, when is this FO going to be held accountable for their results and ROI for the largest spend of any team the last 3-years and on pace to be the highest again in 2024?

Look, I'm as happy about the Browns results this year as the next guy but I'm disappointed with the inconsistencies. The amount of money Haslam has spent combined with the desire to acquire elite players should result in consistent victories. That has not happened the last 4 seasons and you're already banking up excuses for next year's team. I'm tired of waiting and especially tired of watching a FO going up and down in the standings like a yoyo. I didn't like the trade for Watson due to the slutty bagage that came with it but him not producing just proves me right as each season that passes. It's way past time for him to earn his money!

So you're okay with this season, you're just still pissed about 2021 and '22? Like, the success this year makes our FO look even worse, because of the inconsistency?

And now you're saying "What's gonna happen when it happens again? Will they be held accountable?!?"



And our coach over-performing is actually a bad thing that helps bolster your argument?


I feel like you're trying to pull some Jedi mind trick.

Case closed.

IMO you need a heavy dose of what really takes place in the NFL.

Everybody wants to win a Super Bowl.

Who cares about the money spent?

DW is the quarterback. How he got here and what he has done is water over the bridge.

Money spent does mean consistent victories will be the result. It may provide the potential to win.

Of course we all should want DW to be the guy to lead the team to success. However, success is defined.

Deshaun Watson was injured this year. Just like Joe Burrow, Justin Herbert, Kenny Pickett, Kirk Cousins, Nick Chubb and hundreds of other players.

I do not care what you think about DW.

All I hope is he stays healthy and shows us he can win football games.

I am not banking on excuses because I have no idea what will happen this coming season.

What I will do is root for the team to win every game. I will enjoy the victories and hate losing games. I hope to win the title. At the same time I am firmly planted in the reality of the NFL.

What I will not do is over react to every single game. I will applaud what I see as good performances from players and coaches. I will be critical of coaches and players when I think it is appropriate.

My only agenda is my desire to win a Super Bowl.

It appears your agenda is only to be critical.

I’m so sorry I missed that and it was totally unintentional but please help me and ask me that question again.

I had to spend time with my wife this weekend because she’s going back to Brazil tomorrow and visiting our grandchildren so I didn’t have time to follow this thread so closely and on Sunday evening it was playoff games.

Today I had to attend a couple of meetings and do some paper work so now is my first moment paying attention to what’s going on. You have to realize that I’m 6 hours before you in time so maybe I sometimes miss a few posts whenever I return in the mornings to read what’s going on. Anyway I apologize if I didn’t answer you properly.


Regrading the bigger picture I always try to factor a player’s personality when I try to evaluate the future to a former offender. I can’t walk around that I think Watson is a bad apple. What he did in Houston isn’t normal and some unintentional mistake. It’s a calculated decision and done by a person who don’t factor consequences. The old saying about a Zebra is fitting and that’s why I’m worried about giving him to much power. I could be wrong but normally when we talk about these type of personalities the odds often is in favor of the history repeating itself one way or another.

Why do I feel so tiny ?

Am I walking on stars ?

Is that big hairy animal really drinking a beer and talking ?

Dang Jedi

You're going to make me believe the Browns won three SBs back to back

Mind games ! just give me a gummy please ! Not as crazy as a Jedi mind game !

I followed you to the winning part…

Floquinho: These aren’t the front office/coaching staff your looking for

Never say never...

Same age as me.These "going under the radar" type of elder men often has unexpected experience and wisdom who's valuable when it most is needed.

If I was a betting man I would definitely put my money on someone who have "been there and done it"... These new slick addicted abusers, Oh sorry I used the wrong tangents, off course I mean very nice sons like "C(H)unter" and the other female abuser, hmmm, I forgot his name... has always been a patented recipe for disaster if you care about the history but you can never count out idiotic decisions, without them we wouldn't have something to talk about

And what I do is differentiate the person form the player. My opinion of a players character and deeds I can separate from my evaluation of him as a player. Which is a total distraction from my question. That seems to be a go to strategy of yours. So let's try this again.....


And please, no "putting your eggs in one basket" No BS, discussion of soccer coaches or dancing around it. Based on those actions what conclusion do you come to?

Big picture.....I was just comparing our back, Ford, with KC's back, Pacheco. Ford is a 5th rounder, P is a 7th rounder----similar size...BUT Pacheco is WAY FASTER.

I'm of the opinion speed kills- NFL stands for Not For Long- if KC can find a fast good RB in 7th round- we should be able to also. I haven't been happy with Ford- I'd move on.....and somehow we need to find fast receivers who can catch- not our Auburn track star clone- in the later rounds.....GO Browns!!!

So since the 49'ers hit on a starting QB with the last pick in the draft would you also say that the Browns should be able to find a staring QB late in the late 7th round of the draft?

Big picture thinking for this off-season:

1. Offensive tackle: Do they create competition between Jones and Willis at LT? Hypothetically, if Jones wins, does Willis demand to be traded or waived? Conklin can't be relied on. I am good with Willis at LT and Jones at RT. Depth at OT is lacking for sure.

2. Berry should look at the guard positions too. How many more years does Bitonio have left? What about backups for Bitonio and Teller? I feel the OL is a much higher priority over LB and WR.

3. I still think Berry needs to do more at DT. Tomlinson has one year remaining. They need another Ika-like and someone to replace Shelby Harris.

4. Everyone is clamoring for an upgrade at the receiver position. I think WR and QB are the two most "got to have" positions needing upgrades by every fanbase! Without a bit of luck, Berry is not going to find a backup/replacement for Cooper in the draft or free agency. What I think they need at WR is someone to replace Goodwin. Browns have no one reliable with speed. Adding the speed receiver to the mix opens the intermediate routes. Browns have ample mid-range guys.

5. I see most want another LB. Do we need an upgrade at LB or another Delpit/JOK? Is stopping the run more important than stopping a TE or intermediate receiver? Can the Browns make do stopping the run with adequate DTs?

6. You can't have enough corners and defensive ends!

7. Backup QB? I am good with DTR, but I get the argument about having someone with Flacco's credentials.

8. Running-backs. This is a tough decision. If Stefanski is moving toward an 11-personnel scheme, what type of RB is needed if Chubb is not available or gets injured? It is easy to say replace Ford, but you need a good utility type back (blocker, pass-catcher, and runner). These guys are difficult to find. So, do Ford and Strong fit the back by committee? Draft a late-round power back?

9. Coaching? Does it not surprise anyone no one is interviewing any coaches? Houston, with a rookie HC, has two coaches getting looks. This tells me a lot. We have the talent to win 11 games, but the coaching staff lacks innovation. The Browns have become too predictable. I think changing the offensive coaching staff is a big plus. I would like to see changes on the defense side. DL goes stagnant at times. The secondary may benefit from playing more zone. Adding another secondary and DL coach can help diversify.

Naturally, this is what I think needs to be done. Do I think they are critical problems? No. Browns won 11 games. Every year is a new team. I think most fans forget that. It is not simply built on what you had last year. We will see about a 40% roster change.

If you are still reading, thank you!

After watching DTR play and seeing just how raw his skil set is at this juncture I find it amazing anyone would say "I am good with DTR" in relationship to going into next season at the backup QB position.

It's not as if the question is should it be DTR or Flacco. There are several candidates that will be on the market to fill in the backup QB role with a far better resume' at this time than what the raw skills DTR can provide. Let DTR develop and grown into the role over time.

I understand your argument I really do.

There is also the argument about overpaying for insurance.

Berry was able to adapt and overcome by hiring Flacco.

Just for debate, would you say Berry needs to sign a quality replacement for Garrett? Cooper?

Both positions would be a huge loss. Yes, QB is the most important position. Losing either player greatly diminishes the chances of success.

Would having Chubb, help take the pressure off DTR?

I have already answered that question to you earlier in this thread but probably the moderators took that post away because I was too critical of other things connecting to the Brown. I can't remember what it was but probably something offensive

Anyway. To your question, despite you taking cheap shoots and throw insults at me, I agree with Andrew Berry and his gang that they must change OC, and connected coaches, to move forward even if it comes with pros and cons. With a guaranteed 230M contract that's hanging around our neck we have to do what it takes to maximize our investment.

I will later in this thread give my opinion why huge guaranteed contract for most of the time is bad business decisions in general from a standpoint of ROI. The chances to get some decent financial return from such a deal is small and that's why organizations, the Cleveland Browns or whoever, should as a general rule stay away from making such deals. When we do the maths the numbers isn't directly favourable to such financial gambles.

This is comedy gold.

Pure entertainment and now I understand all the emotions when discussion some sensitive topics.

Pacheco also runs HARD while Ford runs weak.

hitt brings up an important point with the above comment...why can't the Browns find RB talent in the draft...?

The Browns had the opportunity to draft a RB in the same draft that KC selected Pacheco in..2022. The Browns took Ford in the 5th round of the same 2022 draft and ignored Pacheco who the Chiefs selected in the 7th round.

The difference between the Chiefs front office and draft team and the Browns front office and draft team...I guess. The Browns ability to judge draft talent needs to improve.

Well thought out post bugs.

You covered pretty much every major consideration.

Berry has his hands full.

Looking at the four remaining quarterbacks in the playoffs: Goff, Purdy, Lamar, Mahomes. Goff and Purdy are similar. Mahomes and Lamar are similar.

All four are accurate. All four will beat you given time to throw.

IMO to win in the playoffs against the best quarterbacks; you must apply pressure.

Pass rushers are a premium position in the NFL. They can come from linebackers as rush linebackers or, anywhere on the DL. If we can upgrade anywhere with pass rushers it will pay off.

Sometimes I have mixed feelings about receivers. First is athletic humans that are receiver size are more common than good big men. There are way more people on earth like Odell than Myles. So your chances of landing a receiver in later rounds of the draft are higher.

When you can get good big men on either side of the ball. You should probably take them.

Position ranking means something. Pass rushers are really important.

Flacco or Jacoby would be perfect for backup qb. DTR is worth developing. Given him time to develop there is no hurry.

Changing the offense is important. You cannot become stale on offense. In the end analysis it is about maximizing the talent you have.

So Pacheco has more yards than Clyde Edwards-Helaire, a RB the Chiefs drafted in the 1st round, who has taken a back seat. But the Chiefs are better at drafting RBs than the Browns.

Obviously their gooder at not getting their RBs injured. That crappy Chubb dint even last two games!

Some of your takes bro... Pacheco was ignored 251 times and performed better than 16 RBs drafted ahead of him. This is called an anomaly, not KC being 250 picks smarter than everyone else.

First, I was commenting on hitt's comment/question..
"if KC can find a fast good RB in 7th round- we should be able to also."

My comment pointed out that the Browns had the same opportunity that KC had in 2022 when they passed on Pacheco, preferring to take Ford in the 5th round of the 2022 draft.

If the Browns draft room ever hopes to be considered on the same level as KC, They will need to improve their ability to judge football talent.




fate...any idea why KC decided to draft Pacheco in 2022..?

Seems that Clyde Edwards-Helaire was susceptible to injuries and the Chiefs could not depend on him to be available.


As for your take on Chubb...he lasted 77 games before suffering the knee injury in 2023. No idea what point you might be attempting to make with your inaccurate interpretation of the facts concerning Chubb.






fate...'anomaly' you say...I will call that term exactly what it IS...an often and overused..."EXCUSE"...for the Browns draft room to cover for their inability to judge football/draft talent,





fate...the quote above is what I said and was my final take concerning the hitt comment. You are attempting to debate the conclusion I made...that the Browns draft room need to "improve"....

...some of your takes...

Thats an unwatchable clusterF. Id take most of the posters on DT to have a more constructive and comprehensible discussion.

Let's ask Nick Chubb.

#199 = GOAT

/story

The bigger picture from my POV about why a fully guaranteed contracts is a gamble that's very unlikely to pay off from a ROI.
We can argue about the if's and the why's but this is so far the un maskered reality.


Maximum ROI for a fully guaranteed 5 year contract is 100 games availability and 5 Super Bowl appearances. (17 regular season-/ and 3 playoff -games)
If we break down these numbers it means a cost of 1% per game of 5 years total salary.

Let's look at the Golden standard.

Tom Brady - between 2013 - 2022 Played 158 games and won multiple division, conference and SB titles. (ESPN stats) A average of 15,8 games per season.
Patrick Mahomes - 2018 - 2023 Played 95 games and won multiple division, conference and SB titles (ESPN stats) A average of 15,8 games per season.

Let's look at the Silver standard.

Josh Allen - 2018 - 2023 Played 94 games but only division and conference appearances. (ESPN stats) A average of 15,6 games per season.
Lamar Jackson 2018 - 2023 Played 86 games and only a few division titles (ESPN stats) A average of 14,3 games per season
Joe Burrow 2020 - 2023 Played 52 games and division, conference and SB appearances. (ESPN stats) A average of 13 games per season.

None of these players has/had a fully guaranteed contract. Brady played almost his whole career with a team friendly contract. The rest had first delivered some sorts of success, then they got their contracts.

We must look at Watsons numbers so we can fully understand why a guaranteed contract almost never gives even a decent ROI.

Deshaun Watson - 2017 - 2023 Played 66 games with zero playoff success. (ESPN stats) A average of 9,4 games per season. (injuries and his conflict with HT played a part but his absence in Houston and his first time with the Browns is self made.
Deshaun Watson - 2022-2023 Played 12 games. (ESPN stats) A average of 6 games per season.

Let's say Watson play 3 more seasons with an average of 14 games/season. This gives us a total of 108 games in 9 seasons. A average of 12 game per season.

If we factor all these players salaries then the numbers for Watson are even worse. We literally so far have paid him USD 7,66M per game. Zero trophy's. Zero playoff wins. That's insane.

Not to mention all the other costs that comes with his trade. 3 seasons of draft picks

That's why a fully guaranteed contract for a player that haven't delivered any success to his team is extremely bad business.
Not to mention that the Browns traded for a player with a highly questionable history both as a franchise QB and as a private individual. That's badwill from the first second.

All of Mahomes, Allen, Jackson and Burrow first delivered success, then they got paid. That's how to do it because its a correlation between the outcome and the future income.

I'm 100% sure that this contract will be a case study of how you should't run an organization.

I really really hope that our FO has learned from this mistake. From a viewpoint of an investor it's mind-blowing. Almost fiction.

For the sake of this discussion, let's assume Jackson and Burrow finish the next two or three years on the injured list while Watson equals the production Burrow and Jackson experienced.

Since both Jackson and Burrow don't have a guaranteed contract, will either be released out of their contract? Is the difference of $20 million nonguaranteed creating relief for these teams?

Technically, yes, the Bengals and Ravens can get out from under their contracts. But, will they?

Ravens could have easily walked away from Jackson instead of signing him to a 3/4 guaranteed contract. If I am not mistaken, it was near what Cleveland offered Watson. In the end, Ravens are just as committed as the Browns. If you ask me, I think the Ravens took an even bigger risk thinking Jackson could be more than just a running QB.

All a guaranteed contract does is make the owner pay upfront. A majority of the owners do not have that much-liquidated cash. Guaranteeing contracts allows Haslam an advantage to sign high-quality players over other teams. Is it risky? Yes. Business is risky. It is no more risky than a company taking out a loan to boost a potential profit.

You, me and probably the whole Browns nation want success when he’s playing with us. What’s happened in the past is history and didn’t affect us. We also don’t want to pay, your words, “up front” when the probability of failure is relative high. Every experienced and successful investor knows that risk elimination is one of the most important parts to future success. Better with one bird in your hand than 10 birds in the forrest, is the golden rule to avoid costly failures.

If Watson only had played 1 trouble free season with the Houston, without personal problems and bad media coverage then this contract could make more sense, but definitely not now.
When an organization invest $230M without any safety net then is a huge gamble. If you buy a real estate, car, stocks, bonds then you have a resale value. In this case, so far, we don’t even see him on the field enough to justify these numbers.

You have to explain to me how Cincy and Baltimore have less risk over Cleveland?

What if any of these QBs suffer a career-ending injury the day after they sign a contract?

How different is it from buying stocks on margin?

You claim it is Andrew Berry is behind all of these moves. Total conjecture with no evidence with which to substantiate it. Then you once again refuse to give a direct answer to the question. Luckily your responses have become quite predictable in that department so I wasn't the least bit surprised.

You’re trying to compare a hypothetical scenario with our reality. The Browns has paid “up front”, your word, for a player who has attended 12 games in 2 seasons.
Burrow has 1 SB appearance with Cincy and Jackson a division title. We have nothing with Watson except the memories of a couple of good game, maybe 1,5 was an elite level performance who can justify 2% of his salary.

When you buy something with a resale value you can sell it when you think the ROI doesn’t match your expectations. At least you get something back. With a guaranteed contract there isn’t such option. It doesn’t matter if the player succeed or even is doing his best on the field, we still have to pay him 230M. Isn’t this self explanatory?

There is a huge difference:

Burrows only has guaranteed salary in 2024 and 2025 left on his contract. The next 4 years, 2026, 2027, 2028, and 2029 the Bengals have an out. The highest cap charge year for Burrows is currently his final year 2029 at 57.539M.

Jackson only has a guaranteed salary in 2024 left on his contract. The Ravens absorbed an 80M cash payout in 2023. The next 3 years, 2025, 2026, and 2027 have an out for the Ravens. The highest cap charge for Jackson is currently his final 2 years at 74.650M. Let's not forget that Jackson has gotten his team to the AFC Championship game in year 1 of the contract too.

Watson contract is fully guaranteed for all 5 years of his contract. The Browns have paid 92M in cash for his services the first 2 years. Unfortunately, due to restructures, the Browns have only had $28,452,500 applied to the cap those first 2 years. The next 3 years, 2024, 2025, 2026 the Browns are still on the hook for the guarantees and currently have cap charges of 63.977M per season providing Berry doesn't restructure him again.

So, how much dead money would it cost each team today, by year, to terminate the contract of all 3 players:

Terminate in 2024
Burrows - 132.964M
Jackson - 112.850M
Watson - 200.915M

Terminate in 2025
Burrows - 103.250M
Jackson - 80.450M
Watson - 136.938M

Terminate in 2026
Burrows - 57.0M
Jackson - 57.8M
Watson - 72.961M

Hypothetical question. I repeat Hypothetical.
Could the Browns put Watson on the trade block and ask for 3 1st picks
In return ?
Probably not. I don't think the Browns could get a 2nd
Pick for Watson now. To say the Browns overpaid for DW is
A understatement

If only they would have had a crystal ball.

Snap shot now. It does not look good.

We all want more. However, the trade was made because at the time it gave the team a better chance to win a Super Bowl than what was in place.

In addition although the deal was for five years when you make a trade like that, for a 27 year old, you are thinking ten years. If he is gone after five. It probably didn't work.

I do not know what the future holds for DW in Cleveland. What I will say is this. If he wins a Super Bowl in Cleveland. IMO the deal worked.

He may be gone as a free agent at the end of five. Or, he might be signed to an extension.

He needs to play. We really do not know what he will do. He has to stay on the field. I think he can play at a high level. The doubt creeping in is; can he stay on the field?

Two injuries to his throwing arm. Rotator cuff and then this shoulder injury. I do not doubt his competitive nature. His commitment to being great. His desire to win here in Cleveland. He has to play.

If he plays a full season many questions will be answered.

jc...

If ever there was a time when the Browns draft room needed to improve upon their performance, it is now, during these years without a #1 pick.

Without the pressure of a first round pick, it should give the Browns draft team more time to judge the talent that will be available to the Browns in the later rounds.


This would be a good time for the Browns to locate some of the hidden talent that is bound to be drafted by someone...

...why not the Browns..?

...why not in the 2024 draft..?

That’s probably the best question we and the Browns FO can ask ourselves regarding this trade and the guaranteed 230M contract.

Was there enough data and evidence to make a proper due diligence before the trade? Yes it was.

On one hand it was Watson’s good stats with the Texans 2018 and 2019 but also their 4-12 record in 2020. He didn’t play in 2021 and was in a conflict with his organization so in his last two seasons, before we traded for him, it was a bunch of warning signals for those who care about the overall picture and not just cherry picking the best stats from his two best years.

It was also huge red flags over his personal life and what kind of character that was behind what we saw on the field. Any normal business company had hesitate with so much questionable information when we talk about an absurd $230 mil contract. So, yes, we had a crystal ball but our FO, owners and maybe a few supporters chose to ignore the negative parts and only focus on those things that looked favorable to the deal. I can understand the fans but when we talk about a professional GM, graduated in a prestigious University, then it’s harder to defend his decision to stand behind the totality of the whole deal.

Any sorts of risk calculation done by professional business analytics would have set a limit of
a) maximum guaranteed salary
b) the length of the contract

and that a escape clause must be installed before any signing. If those numbers and conditions wasn’t met then we should just walk away because the risk will become too high and the deal didn’t make financial sense.

Just look at it.

$ 230M and multiple 1st RD picks

vs.

A player who hadn’t play regularly in 2 seasons, in his last season playing regular football he had a 4-12 record. In conflict with his organization. Sued by 20+ women and accused by another 40 more who had been in contact with him.

Ask yourself what all these draft picks and 46M per season could have done if Berry had been as good with these options as he had with our recent FA signings.

Yeah! I will say that the crystal ball could have helped us if we only had used it properly.

Floquinho, just so I understand what you're saying. Cincy and Baltimore have less risk because the QB they signed has better historical statistical data, and this data will carry forward the remainder of the contract. Watson's statistics will also remain constant for the remainder of his contract, so his risk is much higher. To me, it seems the contracts are what they are regardless of the stats. Yes, Haslam is required to pay more, but the overall amounts are the same. Less guaranteed does not favor one over the other. In two or three years, all three contracts will most likely look better than the going rate.

Steve0255, you are saying Cincy and Baltimore have less dead money with their QB contracts which makes it better than Cleveland, but their QBs are statistically better. Why would they terminate the contract to avoid paying the nonguaranteed amount?

You both assume everything is constant. When in actuality, all three teams are gambling about the same amount. On paper, Haslam is out more money, but do you think the other two owners will simply avoid paying the full contract amount and let their QB hit free agency? Do you think all three teams won't restructure the contracts moving forward? With the salary cap increasing every year and QB salaries increasing, do you think Cincy and Baltimore won't have to renegotiate contracts? What percentage of Jackson's and Burrow's yearly contract amount weighs against the yearly salary team cap amount compared to Watson's?

And yet he says:

If anyone introduces variables that don't include doom and gloom for the Browns.

I don't get hypothetical events.

DW needs to play for a full season before we even know what kind of quarterback he is in Cleveland.

The deal has been made. I don't care about ROI.

He may completely fail and be gone. He also could lead the Browns to a Super Bowl victory.

Both outcomes do not mean a thing today.

Hypothetically Floquinho is assuming past performance reflects toward the future. The odds are favorable, but actually, it's hypothetically speaking!

It's an exercise in futility. We would never be having this conversation if we all knew Watson couldn't be great again. We would be saying "Our QB sucks, we need a new QB."

Two wasted seasons... one because of the suspension, another because of injury. Flo wants to use some advanced math, blah, blah, blah per game b.s. that has absolutely no bearing on whether this will be judged a success or failure.

If we don't win a championship with Watson -- failure.
If we do -- success.

And at that point nobody really cares about a single stat line. His stats could look like Tyrod Taylor and nobody would care. We'd say it wasn't the best investment in the world -- but we wouldn't care.

Fate, as it stands today they are correct in what they are saying.

But, moving forward, Haslam has paid more salary than the salary cap. Later he will only need to worry about the salary cap number. Whereas, Cincy and Baltimore are still on the hook to pay the salary. This is where the rubber meets the road. Who is more likely to re-sign their star players for less? Both Baltimore and Cincy will have to pay higher salaries for diminishing talent to fulfill the contracts.

Regarding Andrew Berry. Absolutely not!
One word is enough. Jimmy!

Both Burrow and Jackson was draft picks who started their first seasons with a less expensive contract. They have already proved their worth and delivered good results. So giving these two a expensive contracts was a combination of reward and continuity from past success.

Why not? Maybe we will?

We have a bunch of cherry pickers in here. You could cherry pick nearly every pick on every team and find examples of players teams could/should have drafted. It serves no purpose because teams don't have crystal balls that tell the future.

I would say...if only they knew how to evaluate the QB position.

Berry , Haslam and Depodesta will never admit it
To the public but I bet behind closed doors all
3 are regretting the Watson trade. I think they
Got so intoxicated with his stats in Houston.
But the truth is Watson never took the Texans anywhere.
Baker Mayfield accomplished more in the same
Timeframe as a Brown than Watson has.
I'm sure most Texans fans were happy to see Watson go.

Can't really argue with most of that.

Although the Baker "accomplishments" don't really have any bearing if they were convinced he couldn't take them to the next level. Nevermind the rumors of him being disruptive and infantile.

Who knows what goes on behind closed doors. I wasn’t that enamored with the DW trade and up until now it hasn’t worked out but we still have 3 more years. I didn’t think Baker was the answer and felt we needed an upgrade at QB. I still feel DW is more talented than Baker and we have a better chance of winning with him. Unfortunately he hasn’t been able to stay on the field. Again we have 3 more years. That’s when the trade can be fully evaluated.

Totally agree from a result oriented standpoint. But if we factor in his salary and all the lost draft picks is when it gets complicated.

That’s true. I like to bring up the fact we haven’t drafted well in the first round since we came back in “99. We only got 3-4 players in the first that amounted to anything and 3 of those years we had 2 picks. However, that doesn’t mean we wouldn’t have hit on one or all 3 of those picks we sent to Houston. It does get somewhat complicated I agree. We are at the crossroads with the DW trade IMO. If he works out in the next 3 years great 👍. If he doesn’t we may need to draft a QB in the first in the next couple of years. That could really set us back especially with our history of first round QB picks. DW has a lot of pressure on him to perform not to mention our coaches and FO. That is the reason for our coaching changes on O. There is a lot at stake here.

I think it will take more than that. He's on a five year deal. One very good year out of three when next season is completed won't tell the story. No more than the first two years have. I haven't labeled him a failure here over how the first two seasons have played out and I won't consider him a success just because season three turns out to be good. In baseball a .333 batting average is pretty damned good. This isn't baseball. The body of evidence will decide at the point we can weigh the total investment against the total return on that investments and opinions may vary at that point in time.

The jury is still far from being out on that. At this point after two years of a five year contract making predictions is premature. Speaking of crystal balls.

When it comes to Andrew Berry he has done a lot of good things, especially our FA signings. He also seems to understand how to manage the financial aspect of being a GM. In general I agree with his and the organization’s decision to move on from Baker but her is where his shortcomings is becoming evident. He’s too much of a politician when he talks and less authentic, direct and honest. That works short term but not in the long run. People aren’t stupid.

What he should have done with Baker was to be honest and tell him that the organization has decided to move on (from Baker) but want they also want to be respectful and invite him and his agent to find a solution how to part ways without harming either part. The way that the Browns handled Mayfield is probably one of the reasons why we had to overpay to get a NEW franchise QB.

His other big mistake was how he handled the communication around Watson. As soon as he sounded like a nervous politician most neutrals stopped believing in his explanations. We all know when someone is lying and just spout nonsense. In a situation like that no explanations will help and sometimes saying less, almost nothing, is a better option then trying to persuade your listeners. That’s why the national media was burying the Browns about being a dysfunctional organization.

After two full seasons with Watson the organization still hasn’t something to show that can defend this trade except high hopes for the future. Trying to deny that or painting a colorful picture that isn’t true just creates more misdirected expectations and that is where we are at the moment. Just as you point out Homewood Dog the stakes are high and there’s a lot of pressure on both the FO, Stefanski and our recently injured $230m QB.

From my POV this could have been handled differently if Berry had lowered the expectations, admitting that so far this trade (Watson) has been a disappointment because of the suspension and a season ending injury. Nobody is going to put blame on the organization, the GM and our HC if we admit that the circumstances hasn’t been totally optimal. There’s no direct criticism against our franchise QB either when Berry only explaining his and the organizations disappointment.

Sometimes it’s a good thing to be brutal honest and use that honesty to your own favor. Without blaming somebody he lower the expectations and take the pressure off the HC and his coaches. Nobody is blaming Watson either for the injury so it’s a win and win statement. If Berry really want to get everyone onboard he first tell Watson about what he’s going to say in his end of the season presser so their will be no surprise and viewed as a blame game.

I honestly (and to be fair, I've heard others say things like this before), have no idea what would be gained by this.

Do you actually believe this would lower people's' expectations?

I agree Fate. Besides, who doesn't know the trade has been a disappointment thus far. I'm going to take the stance that the first 2 years are behind us and we're starting the 2024 season with a clean slate on DW and we'll go from there. Hopefully the results will be different.

Agreed, nothing is gained at all.

Nobody is going to put blame on the org, GM, and HC? No matter what is said, somewhere between 1-100% of the media and public will put blame on someone.

Some need to understand, the FO/staff do not owe us anything regarding team information. They don't owe us an apology, they don't owe us any personal workings of any transaction. Would I love to know every little detail of everything? Sure. HOWEVER, that isn't a smart way to run a team/business. It really doesn't benefit the organization in any shape or form. If anything, when people go off script there is a bigger chance to cause more damage to the team.


If Berry main statement in an interview was: the sky is blue. Do you understand how many ways that would be spun? Some would claim he's smart and done his research. Some would claim he has no clue what he is doing b/c he didn't take into account clouds or fog and what about when the sun sets!

General question:

Why does it matter what the media thinks? If it is good or bad...why does it matter?

What was a bulk of the media's view of the Browns for at least 3/4ths of this season? Basically, negative and probably amped up more when Chubb and others went down. What effect did that have on the fans or more important the team? In my view, it didn't affect anything. The team still played their butts off and had an excellent season.

At the very least, it just showed a good portion of the media has no clue and just will rehash whatever someone else puts out.

Could not agree more. This would be a PR disaster. Not to mention how the obvious perception is that it's a meek CYA position and would be throwing DW under the bus. His agent would be on the phone immediately with the Browns FO and ownership.

This would be part 2.0 of....

You were the guy speaking about crystal balls...not me. We have a demonstrated track record of fumbling the QB position and we have more than (1) QB on trial...and all those/that without any crystal balls...

We decided we couldn't make it work with a QB who clearly made it work elsewhere and for a fraction of the cost / draft capital. A guy now with more playoff wins than the guy we went after;

We signed a quarter billion dollar guaranteed deal with a guy who was sure to get suspended for sexual misconduct...and THAT after sitting himself out the prior year because he didn't get to pick his HC;

We decided that we couldn't afford Jacoby for this year...on a team that had/has spent money as if there were no limits;

We decided that Josh Dobbs was a viable backup...even though he never was...then traded him because...;

We concluded that DTR was ready to be a viable backup on a team with Super Bowl aspirations;

Then we picked up PJ who might be the worst QB in the entire league and grabbed Driskell at the last minute and put HIM ahead of PJ...and all that while...;

We skipped over Joe Flacco who was there all along and was better than the (3) backup QBs we first went with.

Now we are gong to 'tailor the offense' to meet DW4s 'style'. Wait...what? That was the talk the entire off-season. Did we not already know what system to run that best suits him? Apparently not.

The title of this thread is "The bigger picture". The only position that rivals our incompetency at QB is the guys who the QB has to throw to @ WR.

Your thought process on this is incorrect. Watson's contract is 230M over 5 years. The Browns did not include a signing bonus within that deal so the cost cash wise is 46M per year. Out of pocket, the Browns pay 46M every year. How that payment is broken down by year constitutes the cap charge. Depending on the vesting of the player, the team can defer some of that yearly salary charge on paper by showing the salary payment of the minimum salary for a player that's vested (changes each year) and move the balance to a prorated bonus that can be spread across 5 years. In year 1, the Browns paid Watson 46M for the 1st year of his contract but for cap purposes, they showed Watson's salary as 1.035M - the league minimum - and moved the balance of 46.965M to a prorated bonus divided by 5 seasons for an annual charge of $8,993,000 to the cap. Watson's first year cap charge was then only $10,028,000 even though they actually paid him 46M.

In year 2 (last season), the Browns again paid Watson 46M cash as per his contract. Cap wise though, the Browns were scheduled to be charged the 46M plus the 1/5 prorated bonus of $8,993,000 for a total cap charge of $54,993,000. The Browns were over the cap, so Berry chose to defer Watson's year 2 salary to free up cap money to sign other players. Last year's minimum salary for a vested player was 1.080M leaving 44.92M to defer over the next 5 years or $8,984,000 per season. So even though the Browns actually paid 46M in cash to Watson, the cap charge for last year was $1.080M in salary, $8,993,000 for the year one deferment and $8,984,000 for the year 2 deferment for a total cap charge of $19,057,000. The other point to emphasize is due to using the 5-years with Watson only having 4 years left on the contract, a void year is added basically meaning the Browns would still have to account for $8,993,000 in cap charges in 2027 whether Watson is on the team or not.

2024 will be year 3 of Watson's deal. He will be paid 46M in cash as per the guaranteed contract. For cap purposes though, currently, the Browns will be charged 46M in salary, $8,993,000 for the year 1 deferment and $8,984,000 for year 2 for a total cap charge of $63,977,000. These deferments along with at least 8 other players being handled the same way is why the Browns are projected to be $19,052,046 over the 2024 salary cap as we speak. On March 13, 2024: Top 51 begins. All clubs must be under the 2024 salary cap prior to 3 p.m. (CT). March 13, 2024: The 2024 league year and free agency period begin at 3 p.m. (CT). All 2023 player contracts expire at this time and the trading period for 2024 begins.

Note: Money earmarked by the club to prorated bonus cannot be changed or renegotiated. Once it is applied, it becomes due that season. So currently, the Browns must show $17,997,000 in prorated bonus charges for Watson in 2024, 2025, and 2026 and $8,984,000 in 2027 in addition to his salary.

As it stands now, to answer your question. What percentage of the team cap does each player account for:
Jackson, 2024 = 13.3%, 2025 = 16.8%, 2026 = 26.3%, $14,250,000 in guaranteed money left to be paid
Burrows, 2024 = 11.8%, 2025 = 17.8%, 2026 = 17.0%, $35,964,000 in guaranteed money left to be paid
Watson, 2024 = 23.4%, 2025 = 24.6%, 2026 = 22.5%, $138,000,000 in guaranteed money left to be paid

I can't read all that.

What's the bottom line? We screwed?

You still didn't explain how you can determine the success or lack of success of the watson deal after two years of a five year contract.

Instead you just went on some silly rant that had nothing to do with that lol

After watching the video of the press conference I still believe that as Browns fans we’re in good shape with Jimmy and Dee Haslam as owners. He wants to bring a Super Bowl championship to Cleveland and he’s showing that with his willingness to spend and letting his football people run things. I naturally hope he’s successful.

I think the point being made is Cleveland is paying more guaranteed money which is true. The point that is not made is what Baltimore and Cincinnati do with the nonguaranteed money. They simply waive their QB to avoid paying, or they extend paying money still owed along with additional money. To me, it's a pay-me-now-pay-me-later scenario.

Having non guaranteed money gives you options when things go badly. Rather than risk having an albatross hanging around your neck. There are reasons why NFL teams like to guarantee less money when they can on player contracts.

True. But this move was an all-in, all-or-nothing proposition. If it doesn't work, the guaranteed money is not the problem, the problem is letting the window close without a championship... and the solution will be ripping things apart and starting over.

Not diminishing the weight of the all-in decision on Watson, just relaying the fact that the guaranteed money is the least of the worries when (if) it fails.

I was replying to a poster who was speaking about guaranteed money verses non guaranteed money. So I kept my comments restricted to that topic. I very much agree with you that the results of watson's performance over the terms of his contract will determine the jobs of a lot of people in the management department as well as the coaching staff. And they will be at the top. That's why it's my hope this all works out.

I've always looked at the business decisions in the NFL like any other business and their decisions are based exactly like every other major corporation in the regard. ROI is always the bottom line. And if they strike out on this one they will have struck out big time. I have no way of knowing how it will all work out. There's three years left on his contract to see how this all shakes out.

Oh, I know, it was just easier to continue your thought process than look for someone to quote and argue with lol.

We're on the same page. 👊

Very good question and you’re probably right.

The Browns have one of the most loyal fan bases I have ever seen. Patience. Acceptance. Positive. Grateful. Loyal.

Any GM with some sort of strategic perspective knows that if they just feed their fan base with a little bit of positivity most supporters will get onboard again after a disappointing playoff loss. A Boom-Bust cycle that most organizations have to deal with.

Andrew Berry is still relatively young as a GM and probably doesn't have the experience and the long term strategic communication skills to look 3-4 seasons ahead. Not because he doesn't have the talent or intelligence but just because of his age. Younger people mostly sees the future differently. Fear of not being successful, fear of losing their job if his organization doesn't progress is often part of the reason why their perspective can be a little bit different.

If the Browns would like to take the next step, as this season has shown, they need luck with injuries, luck with FA, luck with referee's and maybe a more matured culture. We don't have a bad culture, but our winning culture is nowhere near the best teams, because we don't had their success yet. That goes for the whole organization including the fan base.

To get to an elite level of winning culture we need a at least some inside the FO, players or coaches who have done it, been part of a culture that have turned impossible match situations into touchdowns, who have won against all odds and knows what it takes to turn around a game with both spectators, the referee and bad luck against them. That's different from talking about being inclusive, nice, respectful or whatever that sounds good and a little bit woke. Berry’s story about his view of a better culture is good and all that but it’s not what win Super Bowls

Rightfully most the Browns are satisfied with an 11-6 season. We didn't go all the way but we over performed despite injuries so the season will by many be labeled as a success.

An organization like KCC, for example, don't think and feel like that. Their 11-6 season is seen as acceptable or good at best. Their end goal is the SB so until they reach that goal their season is not a huge success.

This is also why our organizations are planning the season differently. When the Browns is practicing what the right scheme is then Andy Reid, Mahomes & Co is practicing their final drive if they are behind when a couple of minutes left in the SB. Their HC is planning for plan A, B and C, if some key players are missing, and what to do if the unexpected happens.

That's the difference between long term thinking, long term planning, long term implementation and knowing the winning culture is already inside their walls.

What Berry has to do to take the next step is to lower the expectations already before the season starts so he can avoid all hype and unrealistic dreams. He needs to stop patting himself on the back and tell everyone how good everything is. Typical for some of the younger upcoming generation who's using social media/interviews as a platform to show off and paint themselves more colorful and successful than the reality is.

I get why, I have children and grandchildren, and nothing wrong with it as long as you use it the right way, but when you're the top dog of a historically underperforming organization it's better to let results do the talking and if it possible damper the expectations by not patting ourselves on the back for every little positive step we take.

Wait until we win something before raise the flag to the top.

I'm old-school so I perfectly understand that there're different views about this, but as long as we have no titles, talk is cheap.

That's right, you haven't been around that long have you? Browns fans can't even support the staring QB if he doesn't play lights out. They'll be creaming for the backup at the first signs of a struggle. No matter how many times the FO or coaching staff says the starter is the better QB Browns fans don't listen. That experience over decades is why we know that your belief that the fan base will have tempered expectations based on what the team tells them falls flat.

Just look at this season. Should anyone need to tell the fan base that with four starting QB's, no Chubb, playing the 4th and 5th OT's on the depth chart along with a myriad of other injuries that they should temper their expectations? No they shouldn't. And look at the responses when people do. They call everything that is factual and reasonable as excuses. It wouldn't make any difference where that message came from.

Exactly! If year 3 goes bad for the Browns with Watson, they have no way out of the deal. Right now, they owe Watson 138M cash payment for the next 3 years no matter what. The bigger issue is right now though is the Browns still have to account for $201,547,500 against the cap during the same period because they deferred season 1 and season 2. No matter what, the fully guaranteed contract means the Browns will have to account cash payments and for the contract to the cap now and in the future.

Jackson on the other hand has $14,250,000 left on his deal in guaranteed money that ends after 2024. The Ravens deferred some of the cost too, but the difference is none of his salary is guaranteed going forward after 2024. That means the Ravens could let Jackson go in 2025 (injury, poor play, whatever) and owe him zero dollars in cash salary but would still be held accountable to the cap for the $80,450,000 in deferred costs they have used to date.

Burrows has 2 years left of guaranteed money equaling $35,964,000 total. The Bengals deferred some of the cost too, but the difference is none of his salary in guaranteed after 2025 so there is no required cash payments after that. That means the Bengals could let Burrows go in 2026 (injury, poor play, whatever) and owe him zero dollars in cash salary due to no guarantees. They would still be held accountable to the cap for the $57,000,000 in deferred costs that have used to date.

With Jackson and Burrows, the have contracts running way past the guaranteed years. The difference between them and Watson is the team could move on any year after that due to no guarantees and just owe the prorated bonus money. Watson gets paid whether he's there or not and the team still has to account for the prorated bonus money.

Jackson's contract runs through 2027 and Burrows through 2029.

And on the flip side if watson is doing great by the end of year three with the price of QB's continuing to rise it won't look like watson cost them that much. There are pros and cons in both directions but on a personal note from a purely business aspect I prefer as much non guaranteed money on a players contract which certainly give a team much more flexibility.

Looking at contracts overall:

Jackson: 5 Yrs/$260 Million; Signing Bonus: $72.5 Million; Average: $52 Million; Guaranteed at signing: $135 Million; Total Guaranteed: $185 Million.

Watson: 5 Yrs/$230 Million; Signing Bonus: $44.965 Million; Avreage: $46 Million; Guaranteed at signing: $230 Million; Total Guaranteed: $230 Million.

What is different? Total Guaranteed is $95 million. But, the signing bonus difference is $27.535 Million.

Cleveland's out-of-pocket above Jackson's contract is $67.465 Million or $13.493 Million per year.

You and I talk about different things and we look at it from two different perspectives, so the dialogue between us is more about promoting our own opinions.

I actually agree with you if I look at it from your perspective but my view isn’t about if your expectations, fair or not, it’s more about how our FO communicate and how to build and implement a culture that increase our chances to overcome challenges and unexpected obstacles.

This’s a subject where there’s no 100% right or wrong, only different angles how to build a successful culture.

It is not "my opinion" as how browns fans react. It's my experience of being a Browns fan almost my entire life. It's a first hand account of how they react to things. Trying to present what the vast majority of fans will consider nothing more than excuses is not a way to build a successful culture. Quite the contrary in fact.

The thing is Pit and few others are talking either from experience of the team or situations regarding the team. You are talking through assumptions or some made up ideas. One example is the differences between KC and the Browns.

And with all due respect, you've said a few times you are "old school". In most of the world, this isn't how it works anymore. Things change constantly.

Once again we talk about two different things. Forget about being on the same page, we don’t even reading the same book.
Like I said I actually agree with you on your take but that’s not what I’m trying to make a point about.

From one ClusterF**k to another.

I just saw stats about NFL organizations record of drafting players from 2012 - today.

Worst is the Jets and second worst, …. surprise…. is the Cleveland Browns.

They were by far the two worst when it comes to getting value out of their drafts. My point with mentioning these stats is because I think there’s a correlation between questionable leadership and bad decision making which leads me to the conclusion that’s probably no coincidence that it was the Browns who gave a a highly questionable character a historically unheard contract of 230M guaranteed money.

The tradition of taking high risk gambles without enough due diligence is often deep rooted in a historically underachieving organization despite nchanging personnel and trying to implement a higher level of competence in their leadership. Basically it’s hard for anyone to move on from bad habits, that goes for companies too and especially when it comes to middle size and bigger organizations/companies. The more employees the harder it gets.

With that said I believe that the Browns are on the right path but there’s no doubt that costly mistakes still has been taken despite the Browns probably has their most qualified leadership in many years.

Well results seems to support my view maybe a little bit more then yours.
From what I can see with my “made up ideas” then KCC has won the SB two times in the last couple years and on Sunday they play the conference final.

Maybe I have misunderstood something but tell me, you labeled all the other things so elegantly, what’s the Browns results the last 20 years?

If worse than the average NFL team then why?

Is it because of excellent leadership or do you honestly advocating that an organization has been unlucky two decades? I looking forward to here more insults and patronizing comments.
Do what you do best. It’s entertaining.

I am only going to comment on this part, the KC thing...have at it.

..."what's the Browns results the last 20 years?"

Let me take a personal experience and try my best to keep it straight to the point.

When I first arrived to my current assignment, our current staff all arrived at the same time. For the first 5 or so months, all we heard from the lower Units and from higher was the former leadership was toxic, selfish, lazy, and didn't take care of Soldiers. So out of the gate their first impression = we suck. It was to the point of Soldiers "assuming" if something wasn't right then they would file a complaint due to labeling us the same as the previous groups. It literally took us over a year to get Units and lower level leaders to understand we were not the previous leaders/staff. We do things together as an organization and conduct business in a professional manner. Once they started understanding and seeing the results, things started to take off from there in a good way.

What's my point? "result of the last 20 years"
All the previous staffs of the past 20 years have nothing to do with Andrew Berry and his staff. They weren't family, they weren't brought up in the same environment as the previous staffs, etc. They are their own entity with their own personal upbringings, morals, and beliefs. Only a portion of them have one thing in common and that is the owners; however even the owners philosophy changed (or you can say adjusted) in the past couple years.

What I am getting at: the results of the past 20 years are meaningless in terms to this current FO/staff and team. Berry and his staff should not be labeled and grouped into that lump of garbage, just like myself and my staff should not be lumped into the previous garbage.


As for your worse than average team comment....with this current FO (b/c that is what matters), I would classify making the playoffs 2 out of 4 years better than your "average team".

You're not the first and probably not the last with such a view and I fully understand your reasoning behind it, and much of what you say can be correct, but unfortunately it's more complicated than just changing a few parts of the thought process, who later leads to better quality of decision makings, to fully change the culture of a organization.

When assessing our results and comparing it to the other 31 NFL organizations a span of 20 years gives a better view of the quality of our decision making.

You mention " I would classify making the playoffs 2 out of 4 years better than your "average team" as an indicator of the improved quality of the decision making process and that is partly correct but it's not including the decisions and draft before the change of leadership, who has a strong correlation to the quality of our roster and the results in these 4 seasons. (you mention as a prove for our improvements)

Look at our roster 2023 and how many of our players that was drafted before 2020. On the top of my head I can mention Garrett, Ward, Chubb, Njoku, Teller, Takitaki and Bitonio, nearly all of them can be described as part of the backbone of our team. So your classification that only changing our leadership is the only, or the major part, of the improvement is a little bit flawed. It's a combination but clearly the change of leadership at the top has helped us being better, but I think nobody is fully denying that.

Another important part is the implications of giving away multiple draft picks over a span of 3 seasons. We overpaid to an extend that hurt the team for a player who has only participated in 12 games over 2 seasons. His high guaranteed salary is also affecting the quality of our roster in the long run. What would the result have been with all these draft picks and having more space in our salary cap? Because we don't know this it's hard to evaluate everything as a total success, maybe keeping those draft picks and all the money could have give us a better outcome?

These are also important factors that have influence to our results and how we valuate Berry's time as a GM.

So it's factually incorrect to use the results of our latest 4 seasons as the only indicators if these changes in leadership has been that success you're trying to make as a prove of our improvement.

Just to be clear, you could be right, but at the moment we don't fully know that yet. Too many variables outside his control. We have to wait a couple of seasons before we can evaluate how much of an improvement it has been with Berry at the wheel.

So in other words, anything to disparage Berry and the job he has done.

Half the people on this board could have done better in those early drafts having been handed the biggest sack of gold in NFL history.


This seems like an awful lot of typing to just say Berry sucks, the Browns suck, they will never win anything and their fans are gullible. Which has been the basic theme of your last 10,000 words.

Newsflash: I never opined about 'the success or lack of success of the watson deal after two years of a five year contract'. That's why I didn't bring that up. I stated that the org needs to do a better job at evaluating QBs...with an S. Then I backed up my opinion - something you should try to do.

Why would my silly rant go on about something other than what YOU think is the topic at hand? Because that's how you roll...arguing a point that isn't being made.

Just so it's crystal (ball) clear for you:

I stated that the org needs to be better at evaluating QBs. You responded to that post about the success of a contract for ONE guy.

You stated that it's not fair to make a determination about Watson 2/5th into a contract...something I wasn't doing.

Then I talked about (6) other decisions made at QB in the past two years or so.

If only you would read what was actually posted rather than respond to what you THINK was posted.

So first you claimed I was accusing you of saying things you weren't saying and then you say them.

And BTW- 31 other teams left Joe Flacco on the couch too. That's why he was still on the couch when the FO called.

Jackson's numbers are greatly inflated by the insane salaries of $51M in years 4 & 5 that he will almost certainly not receive. His cap hit in those years is just shy of $75M. That isn't happening.
There are two void years on that deal, too, that prorate the deal over a longer time to keep the per year numbers down. Years 4 & 5 will force a restructure. They can designate him for a Post June 1 Release in 2026 and save $52M against their cap.

Joe might be okay with a back up role here, the other QBs are glass, so he would still start some games.

Flacco is not Nostradumbass. But then neither is anyone else on the board.

Not at all and that's why everyone who is too emotionally invested sometimes gets a little confused when evaluating our improvement, and that includes me too.

The more parts to include, the more complex it becomes. When we mention our GM by name it is because he is the face of our FO and sometimes he gets unfairly criticized without being involved, often depending on others in the thought process. A good example would be the later stages of the Watson trade, where I think our owner took command and let Berry clean the floor behind him.

I stand by my opinion that the Watson trade was a cluster of epic proportions. The downsides of this trade outweighed the potential upside. Only a SB appearance can change this.

IMO Berry has let himself down 3 times. Other than that, he has done most things well with only a few less impressive performances.

1. His immature handling of Mayfield. Instead of taking a long-term approach that includes a more strategic communication, he took the big boss approach and used his power to do whatever he wanted. It backfired when Watson initially rejected the Browns. Not only had he misjudged the situation, but he had also failed to secure a backup plan. That mistake cost the Browns unnecessary bad will and money.

2. That he approved a guaranteed money contract. He should have used his veto as a GM, and if he didn't have a veto, the owners probably didn't trust him 100%, and rejected that trade unless certain safeguards were met.

3. His first press conference with Watson. If he had any kind of backbone, he would have refused to be the face of this embarrassing introduction. If his choice was "take it or leave” then he should at least have the courage not to talk like a sleazy politician and more like a man of principles and the right values. That amateurish defending will always follow him among most neutrals.

Flo, with all due respect, it wasn't AB's handling of Baker. The problem it seems was in the locker room with some players and Baker's relationship with KS. As far as the press conference, AB was doing what he had to do as a good employee. Jimmy Haslam had to be the driving force behind the DW deal. It could never fly without his approval.

Haslam certainly had the final say because he writes the checks. So without him agreeing to the deal no deal would have been done. But claiming to know who was the driving force behind the idea and proposed deal is something none of us actually know.

Regarding Baker I’m talking about finding a route out for our number 1 pick and the Browns where both can save face. (there we can learn from Asia and especially Japan and China, the masters of this art of “mutual’ agreement’s)

Going behind the back of your most known draft pick, the face of a nation wide commercial, without even given him orhis agent a chance to arrange a “friendly” departure, Often typical for a new boss who’s not used to handling executive power against attitude or immature behaviors , like Mayfield, who had that chip on his shoulder that often let him down in certain private situations. In these cases experience is a huge advantage because with a long term communication approach you can use the situation to your advantage by being respectful and understanding without embarrassing or show lack of respect. In this case the end result was a disappointment and all involved looked dirty afterwards. Whatever the reason for the departure of Mayfield, it ended bad and probably cost the Browns unnecessary money.

(I have seen this over the years with many different managers in my own company, or later in my career when I have been a board member, where the board have recruited new GM’s, and some of them start they job, with using their power, commanding respect for the wrong reasons, but instead it often backfires with unnecessary drama and in some cases costly payoffs)

A “good’ employee can still do better than ending up with a media fiasco and sitting like a trained dog when the photo flashes hammering his face to the wall of shame. This’s why experience and maybe a professional mentor could have helped him. Why do you think he Haslams wasn’t on that podium? Maybe they could afford better and more expensive “consigliere’s” …

You seem to be taking great lengths in an attempt to accomplish attempting to make a point that most likely didn't even exist. You are making some wild assumption that the relationship was good between Baker and the Browns at that point in time. To the point they could sit in a circle and sing Kumbaya to reach this friendly agreement you speak of. You must first have some basis in fact with which to base the rest of your long winded post on. I don't believe you proposed the ground work required for that.

Yes, I just wish he’d tell us. Does Frodo get the ring in the end or no?

“It’s a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don’t keep your feet, there’s no knowing where you might be swept off to.”- The LOTR

After reading this thread, something similar should be the Dawgtalkers' disclaimer before posting for the first time.

We really need a HOF section somewhere here on DT.

This is some of the craziest [censored] I've ever read here.

And the dude that found the Browns on a Ouija board five years ago is gonna preach about how long-time fans are too emotionally invested.

Cannot make this stuff up!

Yea, don’t mind me. I’m a little emotional over here from Berry and Stefanski sucking because of Ray Farmer and Hue Jackson.

It’s all so confusing. For years I thought Nick Chubb was good. I forgot to factor in the past twenty years. Ben Gay, Terry Kirby…

Right. Don't you miss the days when our biggest beef with the FO was to get our kick returner paid? And then hope he didn't get a staph infection once the ink was dry?

Back then we didn't need people to explain to us how badly we sucked. Especially our own fans.

With comments like this is when lack of strategic thinking shines thru.

An experienced GM never let other's emotions stop him to get things done. Secondly from a legal standpoint Mayfield was still under contract with a guaranteed salary in 2022. Thirdly, no matter how bad the relationship was, it's his responsibility is to take care of personnel conflicts inside his domain, or whatever that can affect his organization negative.

Frankly, it's unprofessional to end up in a situation where a relationship is so bad that they can't even directly talk to each other. As a GM you just can't let that happen without fixing it before "the point of no return". It's your job taking care of problems, not creating irreparable decisions.
As soon as Berry understood that it was no way back, no matter who's at fault or the circumstances, he should have sat down with Baker and/or his agent and found a solution how to move forward, before they started their public negotiation with Watson.

Ending any communication before a mutual solution is reached is a failure when you' have the final say in a organization. No matter who's at fault or who started the conflict.
How is that so difficult to understand?

WTF is a general managers responsibility according to you? To enjoy the weather in Cleveland, eating donuts and drinking coffee...

Almost everything involving the Watson trade was handled reversed. First you finalize or find a solution for those contracts that's your organization's liability and is affected by this new deal. That include inform those involved and having a water tight back up solution if something goes wrong. What else. Take chances and hoping for the best..?

The fact is that initially Watsons camp rejected the Browns, before Berry had informed Mayfield. The "Tres Amigos" flew around half of America, and according to reports a half way trip to talk to Baker in their search for solutions, before ending up with giving away a monster contract totally out off proportion for someone who was at that time damaged goods.

Like i say. None of you defending this seems to know what a Happy Ending means.
Talk to Watson. He's the specialist. I give him that.
230M, guaranteed, for abusing women and let the Browns pay for his mistakes.

I bet he and his agent couldn't even believe their own eyes when seeing that contract.

I can agree in principle. However, the rift didn't just happen the day before it was more or less on public display. You take the position that since you didn't hear anything about the sides talking you assume those talks never happened.

Based on everything else I have seen, I feel that both Stefanski and Berry were professional in their dealings and never brought it up to the media. Teams don't usually take their internal dealings to the media. They make it a point of saying they aren't going to share internal personnel matters and won't be discussed in public. I know you have heard comments like that. In years of watching situations similar to this, it is usually the player camp who start talking about internal matters.

I don't think the team started to do anything behind Bakers back. I think both he and the Browns front office knew things were headed towards the gutter with no chance of being salvaged.

Dude, the friction between the FO and Baker was already established. No GM can make someone work with them. Your supposition at its very core is a falsehood. The essays you post in response will not change the fact the very foundation of your fable is flawed.

Your essay is about 90% conspiracy theory and 10% crybaby Mayfield worshipping.

Mayfield QUIT before the plane landed back in Cleveland. QUIT. Wrote a letter saying 'goodbye'. No deal with Watson, no nothing, just the knowledge that they had met with him.

So, I guess the franchise had no right to even think about how the team should work going forward. A team with an injured QB who just spent a half-season dictating when he would or would not start. A QB that needed season-ending surgery weeks before, but instead said he was consulting with "his people" on a week-by-week basis to decide whether he would play or not. "He also said he would talk to his agents and family about sitting out the final week of the season."... after his COACH had already said he would not be starting.

Berry is immature? Stay away from the Magic Mushrooms, bro.

And, I guess we should also believe (since football is also involved, and not just your management conspiracy theories) that his FIVE failures in FIVE attempts at 4th quarter comebacks were also Berry's fault. (Maybe he was texting the plays to the sideline? Inside joke that you wouldn't understand, being a new Browns fan). Mayfield's 4 INTS to blow the game against the Packers pretty much sealed the fate on our season. But crybaby still insisted on starting against the Steelers when he should have been having his shoulder repaired to get ready for the following season.


So after all this, you're insisting Berry should have chased 'Mayfield's people' around the country and begged for a 'sit down'?

The sit down had already occurred. Months before the time you're framing as Berry's failure. The sit down let the QB know who runs the franchise and who is the employee... at the tail end of a tumultuous season.

This entire topic is like Brer Rabbit, Brer Fox and the Tar Baby.

Baker was once the future. Then he was not.

To be objective in such an unusual drama like this is impossible but what we can be sure about is the end result.

I still hold on to my view that this could have been handled much much better from all involved. I leave it there, because in the end it’s history, but I hope and suspect that Andrew Berry was wise enough to reflect on his part and how he and his FO can do better in the future.

Who gives a Flying J how Berry handled that situation.

It did not impact anything. They wanted DW no matter what the situation was happening.. It did not impact getting FAs, it did not impact the locker room, the contract bs you bring up about overpaying…that’s who they wanted. You really think they met DW with only plan A? Do you really think their talks with the Texans was only plan A?

All these intelligent people in one room and they never thought of a backup plan if DW and/or the Texans reject their offer. That’s highly illogical.

I'm certainly interested in what you thought plan B was. As it turns out plan B ended up flying back out and opening the Brinks truck to watson and giving him whatever he wanted . Based on what we witnessed watson was both plan A and plan B.

‘That’s who they wanted”

You are right, it was plan A and B. That can still be true without being desperate.

‘Giving him whatever he wanted” - not disagreeing with you, because I have no clue what went on. How do we know if that’s what DW demanded or what the FO felt was their best and final offer.

How do we know they made the best and final offer initially on that second trip? How do we know they wouldn't have offered more on that second trip if watson had asked for more? I mean, actually how do we know that's not what happened on that second trip? Maybe they took that second trip and made watson an offer, watson said no and they offered him more?

We really don't know the answer to any of that. But what we do know is that they made watson an original offer. Not only did watson reject that offer, he also said he would not agree to be traded to Cleveland at all because he had a no trade option in his contract. So not only did he say no, he said he flat out refused to be traded here at all. Baker found out they were going after watson and made it known he was moving on. Afterwords they went back to make watson a second offer. Now we have no idea if watson accepted that first offer they made on the return trip. But what we do know is the offer looked so good to watson that not only did he reverse his decision to refuse Cleveland as a trade option, he also accepted the contract. So yeah, for him to do both of those things I think the evidence strongly points to them giving him whatever he wanted.

I understand they wanted watson. The question becomes at what point does what you want become cost prohibitive? Whether their decision becomes a good one will be determined over the next three seasons be it right or wrong. Let's all hope it turns out they made the right decision.

I don't remember anything like this and can't find anything on the internet.

Texans QB Deshaun Watson passes on Browns, declines to waive no-trade clause for Cleveland

The Browns passed on Deshaun Watson five years ago in the NFL Draft.

On Thursday morning, Watson passed on Cleveland.

The Browns have been informed they are out of the running for Watson, a person familiar with the situation confirmed. Watson has a no-trade clause in his contract, and he decided he wouldn't waive it for Cleveland.

The Browns were willing to accept whatever public backlash would have come from making Watson the face of their franchise because owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam believe the controversial quarterback is capable of leading Cleveland to its first Super Bowl.

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story...ency-saints-falcons-panthers/7071254001/

It's much longer article if you would like to check out the link but I believe that covers the topic in question.

It’s an interesting question Pit.

I think pride and the risk of losing face played a small part in it, at least from the owners perspective. I have said numerous time that I have no problem with the decision to move on from Mayfield, but how it was handled created distractions, and in the end in my and many others view, lots of public badwill.

You know why I think giving Watson so much guaranteed money was wrong, and I have explained my reasoning behind it in other posts on this thread so it’s no secret.

In my world you first negotiate with Baker and find a mutual acceptable solution, so both can move forward. If he refuse to find a mutual solution just go public with the decision that the organization has decided to move on from their number 1 pick and make him, in an early stage of the off season, available for other teams. It’s not optimal and it weakened our negotiation position but it gives us more time and breathing space to find a new QB.

I also think that Berry should have advocated for a salary limit when it comes to Watson. I’m almost 100% sure that this was not his first option to offer guaranteed money, I think no other organization was willing to pay even close to our numbers.

So plan B from my perspective would be to wait until some other team had made some public offer and then evaluate the situation from there.

For me it’s a principle to not go for a player that doesn’t want to be a Brown so I was a little bit amazed that they did go after him again but maybe that’s where we go different directions.

My advice should have been to have patience and not go overboard with any offer and if the numbers was too high they should have looked elsewhere. Wilson was simply a risk too high to take from all different angles according to my experience.

Thanks. Interesting read even if I think some of it is a modified version but it’s absolutely crazy that we persisted to trade for a player that initially didn’t want to be here. I can’t believe that Stefanski and Berry were in private 100% comfortable with finalizing such a controversial deal.

Why would any team make a public offer?

Also, your plan B would’ve been a failure.

So, in other words, he didn't like the offer and just exercised his no trade clause... Not:

When we've finished reviewing the Watson trade and what happened during the trade negotiations - can someone please start a thread so we can go back over the Tim Couch pick? We need to discuss why we didn't pick McNabb or trade with New Orleans to get all those picks.

Are we going to be fabricating extra drama into this review as well?

You want to do that before the Manziel draft?? I say we work in reverse-chronological.

So much more drama... trading out of Sammy Watkins, up for Justin Gilbert and then wasting the Trent Richardson fleece on the Money Man??

Why do you all insist on making me sad?

It's "hello darkness my old friend" season until late April.

Embrace it -- it will make us stronger!

First you questioned if it actually happened and now this? There was some reason that watson did not want to come to Cleveland. I have no idea what that reason or reasons were, but he made that quite obvious by excluding the Browns as a team he would not be willing to be traded to. Common sense alone tells you that the more teams that were bidding for his services the better the odds that the amount of the contract offers would continue to rise. There would be no reason to exclude any team that made you an offer from bettering that offer at a later time unless you had a reason or reasons for not wanting to go there.

Then they backed up the Brinks truck and offered to unload it for such a high amount, every dime of it guaranteed, that it outweighed whatever his reason or reasons were for not wanting to come here in the first place.

Lol.

When did he say "I will not be traded to the Browns"?? When did he "flat out refuse" to be traded to Cleveland?

IF you're talking about turning down the offer, that is a product of having a no trade clause. No matter who he "turned down", the article would site the no trade clause. That is how he is able to refuse a trade. There is nothing anywhere where he said, or anyone even hinted that it was a Cleveland thing. There is no evidence anywhere that this had anything to do with anything other than money.

You're making stuff up. I know you're willing to die on any hill, but you're going to look foolish trying to create a DeShaun Watson hated Cleveland story out of thin air.

You're in denial of the obvious. He listed the Browns as a team he refused to be traded to. Turning down a contract offer is not the same thing as.........


"Out of the running" is such an obvious and easy thing to understand. And it's certainly not the same thing as turning down an initial offer. I'm not so sure what's so hard to comprehend about this. He put the Browns on his list of teams he refused to wave his no trade clause for.

Deshaun Watson rules out Browns as QB mulls trade options, future NFL team

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...s-houston-texans-quarterback/7075286001/

Deshaun Watson changes mind, QB accepts trade to join Browns

https://apnews.com/article/clevelan...-watson-0ae7b3be157817f697f92f5533fb3ff2

Ey ey ey ... as someone said. Some painful memories to rehash. 2 years clearly isn't enough time to move on from these decisions, so why would two decades?

Watson spoke to the media for the first time since the off-field issues began months ago. During his introductory press conference, Watson was asked about the factors that led him to join Cleveland after reportedly turning them down.

"It wasn't necessarily turned down. I think the media was kind of rushing me to make a decision. And I wasn't comfortable making that right decision."


Hmmm... I don't believe that?! There has to be some underlying reason why he hated Cleveland... Lets ask Pit@Dawgtalkers!

I gave you the information that was reported by others. Not my reports. This isn't the political forum.

He did turn down the initial offer. And he obviously refused to wave his no trade clause for Cleveland after that first offer. And you seem to put a lot of stock in a PR statement put out after the fact. But of course you would give him credibility. I mean 24 women are lairs and he is the becaon of truth, right?

Take a few seconds and answer me two questions with your hand on your heart; ( I prefer to ask YOU and those others with a decent perspective)

1. Is a Stefanski/Watson combo 2023 talented and mentally strong enough to challenge a KCC/Niners 2023 version of defense in a playoff game when everything is on the line? (obviously with DSW in decent shape and healthy)
2. Can our defense handle a Reid/Mahomes/Kelce/Pacheco or a Shanahan/Purdy/Samuel/MacGaffrey/Kittle line up late in a playoff game? (I don't count one regular season win as some proof of the probability ,because as it says, regular season, not with the knife to the throat )

If your answer is yes why didn't our defense doing this against the Texans? (I know that's an unfair question but I just want some perspective before someone throwing around wild guesses)

Watson has 3 games and 1 win in the playoff's and he's in a similar age as Mahomes.

A average of 26,5 points in his best playoff-season without going past the division round. Not once has he elevated his team enough when it most matter. I'm not trying to downgrade his contribution but we have to call a spade a spade.
I know about different circumstances and quality but the question remains the same, why should we think that he, after 8 seasons, the 3 latest seasons with a participation of a 12 games in total, would just now elevate his game enough to outscore Mahomes/Reid or similar.

That's the question we have to ask ourselves when discuss Super Bowl window or whatever we're now dreaming of. Perspective and sanity.

I think that Stefanski with a couple of more seasons under his belt, with the right people around him, can elevate his coaching to a level where he can challenge to win a Super Bowl. I don't think for one second that Watson is capable of this because after 8 years in the NFL he hasn't once showed he's mentally tough enough to elevate himself to a quality required when winner and losers are going to be separated. Maybe I'm a bit too skeptical but results over time usually don't ever lie.

It can change, but, with 230 million guaranteed and a couple of more tens of million dollars from his time in Houston, experience tells that you don't change your personality to the better and the hunger to win often decrease with easy money in your pocket. The other part is if he's mentally stable enough to be on the front line for a organization who need a natural born leader and warrior to go all the way. The Browns as a organization has zero experience of fighting on the highest level. Look at the Lions and the Ravens what happened to them in the second half. It's freaking tough at the top.

This isn't the political forum?

People are only allowed to disagree with you in the political forum?? You really need your own message board.


We'll just go with this as law:


Watson refused to come here AND he refused to come here...

Then he came here.

Bringing political forum style trash over here is exactly what I'm talking about. And you know it. That's beyond disagreeing with someone.

He refused to come here until they backed up the Brinks truck for him and was willing to fully guarantee his contract. Sadly rather than admit that reality you're trying to turn the football forum into a swamp.

But hey, if that's the way you want to play it let's go. I'm just trying to avoid it. But game on man.

So not this?


This is getting confusing.

Only for people that refuse to allow for context. And only for people trying to be obtuse for the sake of sowing confusion. That is what he said at the time. After the first offer. Then, you know "afterwods"? he changed his mind once they backed up the Brinks truck and guaranteed the entire 230 million. Maybe the term "The made him on offer he couldn't refuse" would be something more palatable for you after all of the Fredo references on the board lately.

If you actually find that confusing, I believe that's a you issue.

But Pit, he didn't say anything.

His agents made generic statements and people printed stories. Every team was eventually "out of the running". There was never anything from the horse's mouth saying "I flat out refuse to go to Cleveland". There was never any report about what he said about any team, only whether or not their offers were turned down.

If you wish to dismiss all of the reports from people close to the situation that's your choice and your opinion. This was widely reported and each of us have to make what we wish from those reports. Players have agents and legal teams to speak for them in such negotiations. It would be very rare and pretty stupid for a player or their representatives to come out publicly and make the type of statement you are referring to. That has nothing to do with what's going on behind closed doors and what those people who know what's going on have information and privy to. You don't take what those close to the situation knew as being credible because it didn't come out of watson's mouth directly and I do because there would be nothing gained by people simply making it up. Thus where our difference of opinion lies.

He obviously did, so perhaps the quoted item wasn't entirely accurate or written in the proper context.

I suppose anything is possible if one wishes to look at it that way.

No, and I wasn't trying to be snide. I mean something wasn't accurate about the comment since he did come here. Be it more money or whatever.

I didn't think you were trying to be snide. What would seem obvious to me is that he really didn't want to come to Cleveland which is why he said he wouldn't wave his no trade clause for Cleveland. But the 230 million dollar guaranteed offer was enough to overcome his reason/reasons for not wanting to come here whatever that or those reasons were. Because he could have easily have declined the offer without saying he refused to wave the clause to be traded to Cleveland. But I can certainly understand people feeling otherwise.

1. It's hard to tell. Unfortunately "mental strength" doesn't exist in a vacuum. Some people have to put it to use more and/or have more working against it. Outside factors can be enough to crush anybody if enough is piled on them. On the positive side, if one can come out the other side of being "crushed," it can make one "stronger." The talent is there. Mental strength is hard to measure, as are the things that could be challenging it. If they figure out a support system to lighten that extra load and/or support his mental strength, who knows what will happen? They have shown resilience in the past.

2. Yes. They can/could. Unfortunately, health plays a factor (definitely appeared to in the later stages of this season.) On the "positive" side, (poor/unfortunate) health can affect other teams, too. Things happen, gotta roll with the punches and hopefully come back stronger next time. The team seems to have that approach/mindset much more than in the past. ...the "fanbase" on the other hand....