DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Electric cars

I would suggest if you don't like them not to buy one.

So... the equivalent of less than five gallons of gasoline? Wow. That's terrible... and a bit scary since your life revolves around finding the nearest charging station like a treasure hunt.


At least they only take 2 hours to charge... if the credit card scanner works.

It's so cold, Teslas are struggling to charge in Chicago

At least we have no chargers...


https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/05/congress-ev-chargers-billions-00129996

Two states have started construction though! I'm sure we'll have a few in the ground by the election. I can read the headlines now, telling of this incredible victory towards saving the planet.

Hybrid is the best option until the dinosaurs are all gone. And we’re always going to need gas for bic lighters and such.

No worries bro. I already have my next gas powered model all picked out. That should last me till 2035. By then maybe they will have worked out some of the bugs on static powered cars.

I agree. That is why I bought one last March. I average around 43 MPG on the road and around 45 in town...a Honda Accord...full size car.

When I fill up my computer says I have 550 miles of range based on my previous averages. I'll call that good.

I have nothing against electric, and hope we can make it work, but it doesn't work except for people do only commute in town, don't believe in running air conditioning or heat, and have a charging station in the garage. For everybody else, it's fools gold...at least for now and several decades in to the future.

LOL....gets cold and you can only go 10% of what you thought...have fun walking home.

I love the idea and promise of EV's. But still, I have problems with them that have not been resolved. Range, Charging time and Price. To add to that, cost of Replacing batteries. Those things seem tough to solve, but we can do it. It's just not time yet.

Like I said, I hope so, but maybe we can't. No doubt we can probably improve things just like we haven't cured cancer but have been able to make the prognosis better.

I still think it will be mostly for intown with small cars that have limited range. If one wants total recharging ability, they will need to purchase a in home charging station.

I have no idea what those cost. Add it that younger people are more inclined to rent rather than buy a home. Then you can't even do that. The trend is that Americans will become renters much like it was for the first 40 years of the 20th century.

I’ve heard whispers of battery banks. You drive in and they slide out the battery system and swap it out in 5 minutes. Batteries on a deposit system. Sounds like a plan. New jobs. I’ve also seen car train lanes in my dreams. A lane for long distance travelers, where autos actually magnetically connect and use the collective power of all.

I find this to be false, and I just drove to Chicago last weekend in an EV...

Two good posts. Range, charging time and price should solve itself over time. The battery replacement issue is huge imo... we're getting very close to the time when there are many used EVs on the market. That will coincide with 'new' getting cheaper. Hell, Hertz is selling off 20,000 EVs and switching back to gas... mostly because of how quickly they're becoming devalued.

Who wants to buy a ticking time bomb? Battery replacement should be mandated at or below cost from the manufacturer. It won't be very 'green' if it becomes more prudent to throw the carcass in the sea rather than buy a new battery. "Not time yet" revolves around us (read: corps and govt, and we know how that works) making better long-term decisions that affect how this all will work.

Charging stations in homes or apartments are 100% necessary. Apartments: swipe your user card, cost goes directly on your personal electric bill, no b.s. and profiteering. Home: electric ports should be mandated in new construction by now. It's very hard to get accurate info, but I think we're on the way. New parking lots over xx spaces, xx electric stations should be mandated. It cuts the cost by 75% over a retrofit anyway.

Electric cars are the future. Forcing it down the consumer's throat is stupid, especially when it seems valid concerns are ignored. Letting this play out over time is a 50 year proposition -- treat it that way by making prudent choices. Don't punish Americans by making stupid choices on oil and fossil fuels, it only exacerbates resistance and makes us look like idiots on the world stage... while they finish burning what's left.

/rant

I'm glad that worked out for you. Those stories were all over the news (maybe not State TV). Let me know if you need more links. Obviously Teslas and obviously not all of them, but nobody would ever want to be in that position.

I forgot, which model do you drive?

Yeah and I’m not trying to say it harshly either. Just find it very odd.

I drive the Y. Charged once on the way from Cincy. Took about 20 mins. Same thing coming home. Charging was included with the hotel but we didn’t use it all weekend.

Why would he need a link? He owns one and just drove it to Chicago. And those are the stories you won't hear. Everyone is quick to complain when something gives them problems. You'll certainly hear those stories. People aren't going to tell you when something performed the way it should unless they're asked.

Because he sounded as if maybe he was questioning the story, that's all.

And very few people are going to tell you they ran out of gas and a gas station was nowhere to be found. Even fewer people are going to tell you that it was really cold and their gas mileage was cut in half. One of these things is much rarer than the other or we wouldn't be having this conversation. So, if you're trying to promote a speed-of-light paradigm shift (extreme left greenies) you're going to have to answer to these stories, no matter how few or far between.

People hate change. Change with built in horror stories far outside the norm they are used to, no matter how 'anecdotal', is a tough sell. A slow sell at best.

Isn’t that the truth. Horse and buggy’s are still in use in AMISH-Ville.

I actually believe, and have said so many times, that at the current time I believe EV's are best suited for local travel. Like the family car that is mainly used for shopping, taking the kids to school and soccer practice. That sort of thing. Very short mileage trips. I don't feel it has advanced enough for all forms of travel.

There is a big difference in terms of charging locations. Some locations have far more charging stations per capita than others. So just how much of an issue that is varies widely.

Survey Reveals Most & Least EV-Friendly Cities

https://www.automotive-fleet.com/10194076/survey-reveals-most-least-ev-friendly-cities

And people do hate change. The only real difference I see now is that those who hate change rail against it. Before it seemed that people would simply decide it wasn't for them, not buy it and move on. I mean i never bought a pet rock myself. And while i thought buying one was stupid i never went around yelling about it. Not trying to say that's what you're doing here by any means. There is certain technology that i see differently however. Like AI. It will impact us all whether we participate in purchasing it or not. But now it's as though if they don't like something they want to make some personal crusade out of it. That part of it I don't quite understand. But then again I wasn't around when the main mode of travel changed over from the horse and buggy to the automobile took place. Almost but not quite. lol It wouldn't surprise me if people weren't saying "Yeah, but I can just feed my horse a bail of hay that I grow and you have to travel and try to find gasoline!"

Then too they didn't have social media around where they could just go out and throw a public tantrum about it to the masses.

Shut up! That's part of their religion! (While they drink in the buggy and have drag races on a Saturday night... cranking their booming systems and talking on their cell phones).

Good post. And I'm sure you're right about the horse and buggy days. I bet thousands of people actually called them the devil and found some bible verses to point to the end of the world.

Here's part of the difference to me... nobody shamed you for having a dog instead of a pet rock and no government told you dogs would be outlawed in ten years and all homes would have a pet rock instead. If so, you may have railed.

That's the part of human nature that is simply never going to change. It starts at age two when raving lunatics storm around the house yelling, screaming and throwing [censored] because they don't want to be told what to do.

I was the new guy working under a long-time chef. Right away, other cooks made it clear that it was chef's way or the highway. Good ideas would get shot down. I taught these guys: "We have to make it his idea". A few days later I was demonstrative and loud about how we organized pans... something like "I wish we had a... nah, that would never work". A few days after that I walked in and there was a new pot rack attached to the ceiling "It will work if you put some thought into it", he said with a arrogant grin on his face. If we would have asked for a pot rack he would have told us to pound salt. It had to be his idea. Pretty soon we would just plant seeds for everything we wanted to change, within days or weeks it would be his idea. We wanted to carve pork loin on Sundays to make the day easier, assuming the masses would love it. We plotted, I brought it up in front of him, the other guys shot it down "that would never work!". Two weeks later: Roast Pork Loin was a Sunday staple -- and stayed that way for years.

EVs will need to be every individual's good idea, shoving it down their throats will just make it take decades longer. jmho

I totally agree with you. One thing the left is terrible at is marketing. They use phrases and sayings that instantly anger so many people. But I do think there's a difference between goals and mandates. I know there is the goal to make vehicles carbon neutral by I think it's 2035. There are some liberal states however where I think such mandates do exist. Setting this as a goal is a nice goal if you can get the technology up to snuff by then. But it's stupid to suggest some big switch with so many kinks left to work out. I think when one looks at it, it's the auto manufactures that seem more than willing to totally overhaul all of their models over to EV. There may be some mandate that is forcing them to but I haven't seen it. I don't feel that approach is smart from the left or the manufactures. But trying to force this down people's throats will never work and it doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

I'll give you a prime example. Everyone knows the police are overwhelmed dealing with the mentally ill. A lot of their budget is spent towards that and it takes up so much of their time which could and should be spent on their actual purpose, fighting crime. There is no doubt the police would love not having to deal with the mental health issue in this country anymore. Republicans have been speaking out about addressing the mental health issues in our nation for years as well. I think those are things people on both sides of the political aisle could agree on. In order to accomplish that you would have to analyze how much money the police are currently spending on the mental health issue and transfer those funds into the mental health care coffers to help address those costs. It's simply using the same money to address the same problem only in a better setting to address the problem.

So what do the dumb ass liberals decide to call that? Defund the police. What morons.

Often times in life it's not what you're saying but how you say it. And the liberals suck at it.

Well, it happens in both camps as they all specialize in derisiveness and grandstanding. Which results in nothing getting done... and the people that pay the bills and vote being 100% disenfranchised on both sides.

It's crazy how easy we all get caught up in anecdotes. The media and politicians take a small story and act like it represents the big picture. It happens every day and we eat it up. They're used car salesmen getting us to bite on b.s. and superlatives that simply don't represent the real product. Hell, I'll even admit that the above story about the EVs in Chicago fits that criteria, so I'm no better. Then I think it's okay because I'm just 'fighting fire with fire'. I'll also be honest and say I had no idea these things perform so badly in extreme weather. On one hand, those days are few and far between; on the other I'm sure as hell not down with feeling like I'm trapped in the LM from Apollo 13 when I'm trying to make a trip home after the weekend. 🤣

I think things like "The Green New Deal" do more damage than they'll ever do good. Outlandishly improbable, if not impossible. Then on the heels of that we start hearing about outlawing gas stoves... and waking up to see a hole where your dishwasher once sat, as a lefty stole it in the middle of the night. It just all creates a big ball of "screw you"... "Noooo, screw you!!" It's dumb and counter productive. Most people in this world want to do good, want to help, want to save the planet, want to get along with their brothers and sisters. Quit telling them what to do. Tell them what may be a good idea... and figure out a way to make it their idea.

And oh yeah, reading your post it hit me like a ton of bricks... shouldn't all police cars be electric?? Talk about short trips. Mandate super-chargers at all donut shops. Make the electric companies install the chargers at the cop shops and pay for the electric.

I certainly tend to agree with you. The only difference I would say is that I think "The Green New Deal" does more good than harm. And maybe that's a difference about our feelings on the impact of global warming more than anything. But I certainly think we have to head in a new direction in regards to energy. We are producing more oil than ever before as a nation. The U.S.has been the #1 oil producing nation in the world since 2018. Yet we still depend on OPEC for about 15% of our oil. We are such a glutinous country that our insatiable appetite for oil knows no bounds.

But much like yourself I believe the "The Green New Deal" goes too far with too much frivolous, non essential spending involved.

One thing I have noticed today is that when we discuss things rather than the fight fire with fire method we both usually employ, discussions between us go much better. I may even change my mind and let you start calling me sweetie if you keep it up.

Well shouldn't the power companies volunteer to to install those and pay for the power out of a sense of public duty? I mean what a great PR stunt that would be! And the acceleration rate on those EV's is amazing!

lmao. I've told you a thousand times -- you had me at hello.

And hell yeah, what's wrong with that? Especially since these energy companies have been so corrupt for so long. Payback. It took us decades of fighting back before we finally stumbled on the solution of 'community aggregation' to keep them honest.

Want the community contract? Offer the best fixed rate and provide infrastructure utilities for free, to help run a tight ship for the taxpayers. That's a drop in the bucket of the contract rewards. And don't tell me that's crazy... the first time a mayor or council demanded that, they would get it. A no-brainer and a win-win for all sides.

I love the idea and promise of EV's. But still, I have problems with them that have not been resolved to my liking. Range, Charging time and Price. To add to that, cost of Replacing batteries. Those things seem tough to solve, but we can do it. It's just not time yet.

I feel like I've read that somewhere before.

Yeah I will say, as much as I do enjoy my car for local commutes - and it’s easy - plug it in every night and the “tank is full to start each day - I much prefer our minivan to the longer road trips. It’s night and day. We happened to take the Tesla to Chicago mostly for the fact the van needed an oil change and I didn’t have time to do it before the trip.

I think a lot of the problems with any initiatives or bills, like the Green New Deal, is the outright corruption for how money gets spent. You can see on the back end just how many hands are in the cookie jar when it’s brought to the kitchen. See it in DOD all the time.

I do think the progressives are probably the most well intentioned of the congressional folks (not saying much when you look at the body as a whole) but corruption and palm greasing is still ever-present.

Just also wanted to add an asterisk that I don’t necessarily agree with the progressive platforms, just that when you take a guy like Bernie and compare him to a Gaetz or a Menéndez, he’s definitely the most well intentioned.

You actually see more E-bikes in amish country now lol

I like the Idea of train lanes if it is possible. I can see some problems with that, but it is a cool sounding concept.

As for battery banks, I don't know. I get being able to get a new propane tank and turn in the empty, but batteries for cars? I don't think those batteries change out all that easily...that doesn't mean that someday they couldn't be...but how many lithium batteries would be needed to do that? Maybe double the number of cars on the road. Probably more since each "bank" would have to have a pretty large supply since you can't predict demand on a day to day/hour to hour basis. I think you would end up with lines like we just saw.

The only way for that to happen is for the cost of the vehicle to come down to a level the "average Joe" could afford. You have to have lots of people buying new cars in order to have a decent supply of decent used cars available. The range of a charge, in any weather condition has to be at least 250-300 miles. You also need charging to take minutes rather than hours and have that charging readily available. I mean like everywhere. You would have to flip the availability of charging stations with gas stations. People seeking gasoline would need to seek out available filling stations.

I am sure it could happen, but not by 2030 or whatever goofy timeline is being proposed. Maybe 2050, and that is probably pushing it a bit. From the time cars where invented and available, it was probably 30-40 years before you stopped seeing horse drawn wagons on the streets.

Also, we might reduce carbon emissions, but used lithium batteries aren't exactly something that has zero consequences when disposed of....they have to go somewhere. What impact would that create? We could go from pumping oil to mining more lithium. Mining has environmental impact as well. It's not like a crop one can grow as needed.

Battery exchange isn't a new idea at all. There was a time where Tesla did that.. They could take a Model S battery out and replace it within 20 minutes. Not sure of the cost of that. Also, I don't think they do that anymore. Sounds like it didn't work out well.

If memory serves me correctly, the problem now is the location of the battery around the rear axle and the fact that it is heavy as heck, and not really modular. Who knows how that could change.

One big picture change that could be nice is enabling some type of infrastructure into the road way, or a certain lane of the road way that would allow for car charging while in transit. Your car is getting low on battery, so you shift over to the "slow lane" to charge the car for a bit and then you can be off to the races again. That could be a game changer. Probably would happen in some place like Japan or Germany first.

Battery swap out is happening now.

$149 to $219eu ($162 to $238 usd) per month gives you two battery swaps!

Deal me in!!


BTW, they're bragging about 500 battery swap stations in China -- where there are 107,000 gas stations -- just a little perspective. Sorry, that's not going to do much to alleviate "range anxiety".

That is an issue we hear about quite a bit. I do think it may be wise to look for the answers which are out there before declaring it a problem. These batteries have a wealth of valuable elements which are recycled.

Everything You Need to Know about EV Battery Disposal

This is what happens when your electric car's battery pack reaches the end of its life.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a44022888/electric-car-battery-recycling/


I think this is something that should be of concern. There are ways of extracting lithium that are environmentally friendly. There are companies which use such methods. But that doesn't change the fact that greed conquers all. So unless lithium mining is regulated in such a manner that requires environmentally friendly mining techniques I'm sure the cheapest, most productive manner of mining lithium no matter the consequences will be the flavor of the day. And we know how evil most people think any regulations are so even getting something like that passed in the first place would be an uphill battle. Then there's also the fact we can't dictate the mining process in other countries. So yeah, it is something to consider.

But here is how it can be done if companies would do it and some companies are.....

Sustainable Lithium Extraction: How is Lithium Mined and Processed

https://sustainablereview.com/sustainable-lithium-extraction-how-is-lithium-mined-and-processed/

So it "can" be done. But as a race humans don't seem to consider the best way of doing things but the most profitable.

baby steps bro.

https://amp.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/national/article284306808.html

Until technology improves, I wont be buying one.

Batteries won’t freeze after global warming really sets in.