DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum We will Never Win Consistly without a D Front 7

We all know the importance of an OL..we have struggled for years because of a lackluster OL...but that is only half the puzzle

A good Defensive Front 7 is just as important as a good OL....since 99 all i have seen is the Browns Inability to stop the run. We get man-handled at the LOS defensivly....its sad it truely is

what makes Matter worse? Wimbley was the "Wrong" choice for this team..i said it on draft day, and i will say it now...Trading with Baltimore and taking Wimbley was the one biggest bone-headed move Savager has ever made...and it just may cost him his job

Ngata is who we should have drafted....Ngata to our DL = Thomas to our OL...ngata was that "important" to us...Ngata is a better player than Wimbely...in the area we needed most..."Run Defense"..i don't care how many sacks you get...repeat after me "You will NEVER win consistently in this league unless you can stop the run"...look at the Steelers...they are winners because they don't let "Anyone" run all over them. Period!..it rarely ever happens...with the Browns...its all the time

Wimbley did "Zero" for our Run defense...Zero....You look at Baltimore...they have been in the top 5(Numer 1 and 2 Respectivly) against the run since drafting Ngata....Ray Lewis is getting old, they lost Thomas to New England...yet that Run D is still "Excellent"...Ngata is a very big part of that....you watch Ngata he does 2 things

1. He requires 2 OL to double team him, he doesn't get moved out of the way.

2. He gets penetration consistly and pushes the middle of the pocket....he makes the running back "change" directions...knowing that his origianl hole is not there...With the Browns..the primary hole is "always" there...no matter who is on the nose..the primary hole up the gut is always there.

had we had Ngata yesterday, we probably would have beat Cincy..because Watson would not have had holes the size of a Mack Truck right up the gut...that is just an example of course

Our DL is in bad shaperight now. Shaun Smith is not a 3-4 NT..he is a decet Defensive End at best. Robaire Smith is Old, Ted Washington is done, and Roye just don't got it anymore. Simon Frasier is decent Depth but not starter material...same with Ethan Kelly

So the drafting of Wimbley actually set this franchise back big time...Personally by looking at Romeo's face, i think Romeo wanted Ngata simply because that is exactly how him and Bellichick in New england built that D(Wilfork and Seymour in the 1st respectivly) both DL....Romeo knows you need a good DL to be able to be sucessful in the 3-4..Savage instead chose the sexy pick, and now we got Wimbely and can't stop the run...Ngata would have done so much for this team, Jackson and Davis would not have to shed blocks much at all and Davis(as much as i feel needs replaced) would actually not look no where near as bad as he does now with Ngata in front of him and Jackson.

So how do we fix this whole mess you ask?

Its is gonna be tough, there is no way we can Replace R.Smith, Washington, and Roye with starter capable players in one offseason, its not possible. We also need another OLB and another ILB to replace Andra Davis,. We need atleast 4 new Starters on our Defensive Front 7 to even hope of improving our Run D to middle of the pack status...had we taken Ngata..we would be 1 DL and 1 ILB away from a unit comparable to Baltimore....that is how much of a screw up trading Ngata to Baltimore for Wimbely was...Ozzie Newsome simply scholled his old student big time..I bet Newsome is just laughing his rear off still to this day over that deal.

Well we definitly need to look to Fa for DL...Haynesworth isn't gonna happen he will be franchised....we may get "Lucky" if the Jags part ways with either Marcus Stroud of John Henderson(Both would be instant upgrades) also, Kelly Gregg for Baltimore would make a nice DE he is released

Derrick Andrson needs to be traded...we need a 1st rder to get back in to the 1st and take a big DL...in the 2nd rd we need to follow that up with the best ILB on the board.

That being said. 1 Good Fa DL, a 1st rd DL, and a 2nd Rd ILB, and maybe a mid tier LB like N'ail diggs from Caronlina or If Ray Lewis becomes a cap casulaty..Lewis now declining some is 4 times the LB DAvis could ever be, and he would defintitly be that guy to be a vocal leader and fire this defensie up some. to replace Davis would definitly help this defensive unit, but were atleast 2 years away from having a front 7 here that can force teams like the Steelers to throw the ball and to prevent them from forcing their will on us at the LOS.....

You are now seeing the effects of the Savage Ngata blunder....we would be so close to a Ravens type Run D next year had we taken Ngata....then the Sacks would come....
Sacks are over-rated...you must be able to stop the run. The 2 most important things in football are

1. Running the football on Offense
2. Stopping the Run on Defense

Any team that does those 2 things are a winning team, period...Wimbley did nothing for our run Defense..Ngata would have done wonders...heck him alone probably would have improved our Run d 5-7 spots...we was needed that much...i shake my head every time i think of this blunder

We won't even think of sniffing a super bowl until we fix our Run Defense....like is aid Savage trading away Ngata may very well cost him his job...its takes more than one offseason to fix our Run D..if we stink terribly next year(and i look for us too)....he may be out the door, and its his own fault...Cowher, Marty, heck any other GM in the lague for that matter would have taken Ngata at the spot, and they sure as heck would not have traded with their arch-division rival...you just don't do that...i don't care..you never hand a division rival the guy they want..never

doesn't my spelling suck haha

wish this darn thing had a spell checker, i can't type worth a darn

....but Phil asked Romeo- do you want a run stuffer or a pass rusher-- and their ya go: we got Wimbley.

If i could back that up- i would have taken Ngata as well. I think he has been more productive up till now. But, i think as the Dline is revamped- Wimbley might really turn out to be a terror. It seems like he has had a quiet year- not alot of qb pressures

IIRC...Savage asked Crennel what he needed...A pass rusher or a NT...

Crennel said PASS RUSHER...

This is the off season to attack this front 7...Particularly DE and ILB...Savage has options...And he will...

This defense will be much better in 2008 and beyond...

I look for the front 7 to be attacked much like the OL was this year...

PATIENCE!!!!!!!!!

While I agree with the titel of your thread...I can't agree with your main arguement. Wimbley is a focus of the opposing teams O-line. He seems to contintley get held and double team on any passing situation.

Have team found his weakness by running right at him? Maybe, but wouldn't having a decent DE in front of him help protect him from that?

Would Ngata be a help on this D? Yep, problably, but then we would be crying for a pass rusher?

Wimbley is ONLY in his second yr., How much you want to bet he works on his run defense this offseason?

I again agree that we need help. And I agree with that help needing to be DL and ILB. Hopefully Savage can work on that this offseason.

Part of the problem yesterday was the fact that we had 2 DL go down early, and I think that our DL just wore down.

I agree that we need to upgrade along the DL. Yesterday was a rough one for the remaining players though.

i light of yesterday i know its hard to have patience, but savage can only fix so much each year...

look on the bright side...when savage identifies a weakness in this team, he goes after it hard, and fixes it...the oline is proof of that....

also in regards to wimbley...sure nagata might have helped with the run more, but you can find dlinemen in fa, that can play...teams never let a premier olb pass rusher get away...

i see savage hitting fa hard this year for at least 1 dlinemen, and one backer....i'm talking top notch players...the benley's and stienbachs of the d front 7

then we draft a young stud rb, and this team will be much improved...

when i take a step back i see a secondary that is full of talent, and will have some experience....once we get some linemen that draw some double teams consistantly, we'll be hitting gaps, and blitzing like crazy...it will come...

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Part of the problem yesterday was the fact that we had 2 DL go down early, and I think that our DL just wore down.

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I don't know what the game plan was but in the first 28 1/2 minutes we gave up 108 yards rushing.. which resulted in 6 points (then without them running the ball at all, we gave up 13 points on 25 yards of offense) then in the final 30 minutes when the Bengals WANTED to run the clock we gave up just over 40 more yards rushing and no points... Whatever the Bengals did to amass 108 yards rushing in the first half, the Browns figured it out and got it fixed.....

I am wondering what Savage will do in the off season , with the Defensive Coaching staff ? Throw it out with the bath water or keep in tack ? I have serious reservations about our LB' coach to start with ! Just didn't seem to get all that much out of the young " Star's " we are suppose to have .. The " D " Line is in shambles as we all know ..

Oh, boy....

I agree with our need for a better D7... but c'mon- picking Wimbley might cost Savage his job? A little over-the-top, if you ask me.

Savage got EXACTLY what Romeo requested... and he got it in spades, dude. Wimbley is a beast. He had gaudy sack numbers last year, when teams didn't know who he was. This year, even with all the holds, takedowns, and double-teams, I lost count of the QB pressures he racked up. The fact that almost NOBODY knew who Kamerion Wimbley was is testament to Phil's skills at scouting and talent eval. Both were good pickups, and I can't fault Savage for getting Romeo exactly what he asked for.

Do you even remember how many holes needed to be filled during that draft... on BOTH sides of the ball? Drafting Kam and DQ was one of many "right" things Savage could have done in that draft. Picking up Haloti Ngata would have been another "right" thing to do...

...but at this point in our evolution, we'd still have holes... just like we do now.

I for one am curious and anxious to see what Phil's going to do for us this offseason. You can bet your last paycheck he'll be going DL most of the way. He's been smart, methodical and very direct when addressing our needs ever since he got here. DL is the last big rehab project for this team's overhaul. and I fully expect to see him attack that need with the same efficiency he's shown over the last 2 seasons. If he can pull the same kind of results from this offseason, we'll still be at least a year ahead of the "5-year plan."

Give it time, Dawg... it takes many bricks to build a wall.


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Good Points!

I am sick of hearing about Nagata from B More. Great player but so is Wimbley. Ifs and buts don't count.

Get a real NT and a nasty ass Inside Line Backer between FA and the draft and you'll be happier than going into this season with a revamped O Line.

I actually agree with you completely.

When what we have as our main starters on the DLine is healthy, we are an entirely different team.... so when I think of having them AND some improvements and the addition of a Stud ILB in the middle.... I start to like the thoughts of this D.

We still need another OLB as well though. McGinnest won't be with us too much longer and Peek seems to have trouble staying on the field... so we need a quality body there.

We're not that far away at all.

We're #27 in total points allowed this year
We're #31 in total plays from scrimmage this year
We're #31 in yards per game allowed this year
We're #26 in time of possession allowed this year
We're #29 in passing yards allowed this year
We're #28 in rushing yards allowed this year
We're #28 in sacks this year

For you "stats are for geeks crowd" go buy yourself some horned rimmed glasses.

No matter how you slice it, this clearly shows us in the bottom tier of the league in over-all defense. While I will whole-heartedly agree we're better than we were at the first of the year and dumping the coaching staff is a ridiculous concept, I think we may need a bit more than a few tweaks.

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I for one am curious and anxious to see what Phil's going to do for us this offseason. You can bet your last paycheck he'll be going DL most of the way. He's been smart, methodical and very direct when addressing our needs ever since he got here. DL is the last big rehab project for this team's overhaul. and I fully expect to see him attack that need with the same efficiency he's shown over the last 2 seasons. If he can pull the same kind of results from this offseason, we'll still be at least a year ahead of the "5-year plan."

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I'm excited as hell to see him build up our D,..remember, he was an integral part of developing one of the best D's ever in Baltimore.

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what makes Matter worse? Wimbley was the "Wrong" choice for this team..i said it on draft day, and i will say it now...Trading with Baltimore and taking Wimbley was the one biggest bone-headed move Savager has ever made...and it just may cost him his job

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Why do you think I like many was pimping Haloti Ngata so hard as well. It won't cost Savage his job. That's just crazy thinking.

I'm not worried we had an outstanding season and I know our defense will be taken care of this off-season.

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....but Phil asked Romeo- do you want a run stuffer or a pass rusher-- and their ya go: we got Wimbley.

If i could back that up- i would have taken Ngata as well. I think he has been more productive up till now. But, i think as the Dline is revamped- Wimbley might really turn out to be a terror.

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The pass rusher, who is a tweener, takes more time to develop. By getting him first he gets that time while we wait on the DLman. The DLman will be productive quicker. There's still a learning curve for the DL as eotab pointed out some time ago, but not as long as for OLB. I believe the last part of your post is dead on.

This seems to be the way this team is built. Slow and steady while putting one foot before the other with a sense of purpose. The goal has never seemed to be "win now". The goal seems to be build for the long haul.

That's why Russell was so valuable to us because he was the clear cut leader and got everyone where they needed to be.

Personally I wanted Ngata bad but we did get Wimbley and with a solid d-line he will do wonders. But the guy needs to learn more pass rush moves because his duck under move isn't working as good as it was.

The good news is we have players like Frank Okam, B.J Raji (my personal choice), Red Bryant, Jason Shirley (great run stopper) and Frank Morton in the draft this year who could be potential NT prospects for us. Not tomention any Juniors that might declare.

Then you can get someone like Kendall Langford for DE. Or whoever. The defensive line can easily be fixed this off-seasson.

Just clickin' here...

Pass rushers are hard to find. That's why Houston picked up Mario Williams #1 over the other sexier possible picks in the draft a couple years ago, and it's why we picked up Wimbley. I think, just like with out offensive line fnally coming together and other pieces being in place all coming into fruition this year, that same thing will happen defensively last year. With a couple additions, like a beast NT and good DE, everything else will explode. Davis and Jackson are solid inside, and Wimbley would have less to deal with that way. The DB's would have more time and they've already shown that they have skill and great potential. Just a bit more time is all Phil needs.. he is going to get the DL fixed ASAP...

I look at the DL like this...

Smith and Smith are keepers and starters...S Smith is a young guy and R Smith is in the middle age-wise;

Kelley is the backup NT...and is a keeper and a young guy;

Roye, if he isn't finished, is a backup DE;

Leonard is an unknown, but is young...Fraser is too light but is young too.

We'll end the season with (6) DL and will probably continue with that number in the future.

We have three guys to upgrade and I expect we will get two. I could see Roye sticking around for one more year as a backup - if he doesn't retire - and Leonard and Fraser getting replaced. If Roye retires, my money is on Fraser for another year...and that's ok.

We pickup a very good DL in FA and use our 2nd pick on the best DL available and...poof...this DL becomes very good in a hurry.

The only LB I'm tired of is AD. I'd re-sign CT for a few years and WM for one more. We need to get the best ILB available in free agency and poof...this LB core looks very good with KW another year experienced.

With free agency and a second round pick (at least), this front seven gets good in a hurry.

I really don't think we were that far behind and, while we are only talking about 3 guys, I'm suggesting that 2 are new starters...2 of 7 = 28% turnover in starters. But it's still only 3 guys.

With Kelley, Fraser/Roye and a 2nd Rd pick as backups...we actually could have a little depth...at least short-term.

I like the LB core and ONE STUD is all we need there.

It's not as dire as was the OL a couple years ago...dire still...but very doable.

I vividly remember the Bungles audible at the LOS when they saw Fraser in the game. They ran right at him and picked up some good yardage in a critical situation. It was THAT easy! IIRC the same thing happened last year too.No thanks to the return of Fraser even as a back-up.

We need BJ Raji, the guys is perfect size for NT

High School

Earned All-State, All-North Jersey and All-County honors as a senior at Westwood Regional High School ... was a two-time All-Bergen County Scholastic League choice ... was a three-year starter ... played on both the offensive and defensive lines ... recorded 75 tackles, 7.5 sacks and four forced fumbles in 2003 ... played for head coach Joe Gambardella ... was selected to play in the 2004 Governor's Bowl, which pits the top high-school seniors in New Jersey against their New York counterparts ... played on Westwood's basketball team as a freshman and sophomore.

Personal

Busari Raji, born July 11, 1986 ... enrolled in the College of Arts & Sciences ... was very active in his church, playing drums and tutoring children ... B.J. is the oldest of Mamie and Busari Raji Sr.'s three children.

http://bceagles.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/raji_bj00.html

I was talking Browns football with a friend over the weekend. We both were of a like mind on the need for some more help on the defensive front. We started playing the ol' free-agency game, you know, the one Browns fans usually start playing after the second game of the season? I came up with the most outrageous scenario; sign Justin Smith and convert him like we did Wimbley. Now that would be a run stuffing linebacker. He's one of two Bengals I'd like to see us get our hooks into. The other one, well, he's not for sale. I know, it's not a smart move on Smith but it would be a hoot to watch him plug the hole after he gets up to speed.

There's no need to panic this year. That Romeo Crennell style of no super highs and no super lows could be catching. We just add some more bodies and turn up the heat a bit more. Now that's the best thing to come out of this season as far as I'm concerned.

J.

No, what I'm saying is we need more than a few tweaks. A few has always been associated with the number of 2. We need more than 2 tweaks to our defense either in terms of FA's and/or draft picks going into next year to be more successful than this year.

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A few has always been associated with the number of 2.

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I thought a "couple" was 2 and a "few" was 3.... Haven't you ever putted it a "a few times" from 8 feet?

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We need more than 2 tweaks to our defense.....going into next year to be more successful than this year.

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We do? If we could add Albert Haynesworth and Terrell Suggs we wouldn't be more successful?

Frank Okam is the guy for us. He is 6 foot 5 320 lbs. and runs a 4.9 40. He was third team all american this year for Texas.

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haven't you ever putted it a "a few times" from 8 feet?

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Two times certainly, three putt from eight feet, never. Only serious pud golfers get involved in an abomination like that. Remind me to tell you sometime about a course I played called "The Institute". It's owned by John Fry the owner of Fry's Electronics. It's his totally private playground, there are no other members and it's gorgeous.

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We do? If we could add Albert Haynesworth and Terrell Suggs we wouldn't be more successful?

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Well now we're splitting hairs. We'd be more successful with one upgrade to the D but that does not mean we don't need more. So I suppose I should have asked this question before originally replying, how much more successful do you want us to be on D next year?

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Two times certainly, three putt from eight feet, never.

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I'm not sure how your golf game is, but your lying is still good.

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Remind me to tell you sometime about a course I played called "The Institute".

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PM is still working..

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Well now we're splitting hairs.

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I'm not, I stated what the offense did to go from the bottom to the upper middle.. and it happened in one year... so my point is that the defense can do the same thing.

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We'd be more successful with one upgrade to the D but that does not mean we don't need more.

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We need to upgrade every year.. I think we are 2 years and a little luck from having a really dominant defense, but I think by next year, it can at least be a respected defense.

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So I suppose I should have asked this question before originally replying, how much more successful do you want us to be on D next year?

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Middle to upper middle... I think with 2 solid additions we can get to the middle, we'll need a 3rd to get to the upper middle...

So what's new? When Tampa Bay had their good seaso they scored only 4 more
points than we did the difference was their D allowed over 100 points less than we
did. They had an outstanding D so their Offense didn't have to work as hard.

This year we had an offense that was powerful enough to overcome our D's deffects in
a lot of games. BUT when our offense stumbles we don't have the D to pick up the
slack. Wimbely has the most sacks so far this year. I like to focus on him a lot
and I see him doubled almost every play

I'm sure Savage and Crennell are well aware of our Defensive needs and will
address them in the off season. It might take two years to git'er done but we will git'er done.

You are correct in your thread title...We won't be a powerhouse till we get our D in the top 10. And we won't do that until we have a dynamic front 7.

But then so much of your football just wasn't matching the good sense of the title.

Ngata? sorry Ngata is no Wilfork. And your making up of history is fascinating.

Its on record that prior to the draft Savage who works hand in hand with RAC - asked him. What would he rather have in the first...the Run Stuffer or the Pass Rusher and RAC stated his preference was with the Pass Rusher. Oh and btw - how do you get Wimbley setting the franchise back. Actually he is progressing and has played very well this season even though the stats aren't there. And he will get better.

Shaun Smith isn't a potential NT...he's better suited for DE? lol Where's Attack Dawg - I think I'll sick him on you

As I said the theme is true and accurate and then it pretty much stops there.

Personally I think we need another Impact OLB to takeover from McG and Peek is not the man.

I also think we need a super stud ILB...Willis type preferred but a Demarco Ryans is just fine. I like this kid from Illinois??? Lehman?? But I'm sure there's others.

We also need an early Impact DLman...for a rotation and hopefully a FA stud can be attained. Robaire was a good find last year and so is Shaun Smith.

Roye I think has seen his better days, as of course McG has.

We need depth. Although we got some in Peek, Thompson (think his contract is up) and Leon for LBs we need for the DL as they actually get utilized in a rotation.

Love his heart but Fraser cannot be on our team next year or that will signify that we just don't have the talent.

I like this kid Purcell who got brought up from the practice squad...hope I get to see him in action.

JMHO

I agree! We needed Ngata! Wimbly will only compliment a strong middle. I like Chase Pittman from LSU and he needs to play! Melila Purcel will be decent as well for next season. Simon Frasier is a second and short or 3rd and short player. Good tackler! Ted Washington, Opus,and R. Smith. Our Linbackers all suck! Willie is ok, but we need all new ILBS!!! Our DB's shouldn't lead the team in tackles. Our Db's are good and can only benefit from a stronger interior 7. Our Defense in quality controll measures are a nightmare! D coach Grantham needs to manage consequences on every down! Anticipation of order change in line calls has got to be taught and recognized! This is the NFL after all. We have to sit back and watch pros play like college freshman! I know the players are following orders and trying to do what they are told. What they are told er taught is not proper to the game's concious decisions and recognition's of line calls of opposing teams. We have to many resources available for the Browns to suck this bad on the Defensive line and at the Linebacker position. Personally I'd take the defense out in the cold, when the fog drops, into the wood and have the defense knock timber (trees) over until they learn how to tackle!!!!! WRAP UPand STOP GOING FOR PIGGY BACK RIDES! I'd take the "D" to the border of Mexico and call it open season on all the undesirables trying to cross our border in a day! Until they learn how to have a presence on the field and act like a D E F E N S E in a Cohesive unit, we will have to wait for next years drawing board of what theBrowns want to field for a defensive unit!!!!! Go BROWNS run up the score because our defense can catch an opposing offense up in a quarter or less!

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So what major changes did we make? We signed Steinbach and Lewis and we drafted Thomas.... Other than that, every single player on offense was already on the roster.. and quite a few were deemed not-NFL worthy... or busts or back-ups...

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While I kind of agree w/your overall premise, I think you are taking some liberties here.

First of all.......Anderson has been a huge addition. His play has been far superior to what Frye gave us. Despite what the clueless are spewing, DA has been tremendous this year. His contributions have been immense. Do you really think we have a backup defensive player on our roster who can make such a huge contribution?

Secondly, we won't be drafting 3rd overall and Joe Thomas is a rare find. The guy will probably end up being a HOFer and I doubt we find anyone who can make the impact he did in this draft.

I will say that it is possible to attain a FA that can have a similar impact to what Steinbach gave us this year, but I surely wouldn't count on it.

Next, our upgrades on offense were at very important positions---QB, LT, and then LG--who coincidentally plays beside the new LT. I really don't think we can get three players who will make such a big impact on the defensive side of the ball.

With that said.........I do think we can improve the defense enough to be a pretty damn good team next year. By that, I mean I actually could see us making the playoffs and winning a game or perhaps even two in the playoffs. In order to accomplish that, we will need to bring in two defensive linemen, an OLB, and a new FS.

That's certainly plausible. I doubt if we could bring in such impact players as we did on the offense this year, but we can do enough to be at least decent on defense. And make no mistake..........we are at least four players away from being "decent."