DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum We will Never Win Consistly without a D Front 7

1ST sorry I don’t think drafting KW set the team back. He was and pretty much still is our only consistent pass rusher. I suspect that you would be crying the blues because we don’t have a outside pass rusher if we had taken Ngata. The idea your putting out there is short of the mark, and you actually have shown to my satisfaction that you don’t know what it will take to actually fix the defense.

The truth is that KW was poor at run support, he took bad angles and teams just pushed him outside and were able to run up inside him consistently. A further truth is that at this point in time KW is a fine fine OLB, he has vastly improved this season and still provides the Browns with a consistent pass rush. He consistently takes on blocks sheds those blocks and either pushes the run back inside or pushes the run to the sideline (watch what he does please). He is a stud OLB at this point, and his improvement in run support is the reason why the Browns have gone from a team that gave up 157 yards to start the season, and now are @ 115 per game. Yeah, I see it all the time, the team gets gashed in a game and people come on here and start bitching about something they know little about. The truth is they did get gashed in the 1st half by Watson, and they slowed him down quite a bit in the second half with WM playing NT. The line was beaten up going into the game, the fact that Cincy had some success running the ball shouldn’t be all that surprising.

Now me, I am of the opinion that given a choice between a pass rusher and run stuffers I will take a pass rusher 1st. So I supported it then and I support it now, KW was our best pick, period. I honestly can’t understand why anyone would not realize that yes you can die by the running game (slowly), or quickly die by the passing game. Given that choice I will always choose to stop the pass 1st. Given the ability of the Browns to score points on offense this season, it’s not likely that anyone is going to ever beat us running the ball. The way Cincy actually beat us wasn’t by running it was by getting 4 interceptions. The defense actually played well enough for the Browns to have won the game. Giving up 19 points and considering we gave them 4 interceptions doesn’t say to me at least, that the defense played poorly. The Bengal’s offense has been pretty good over the past few years putting up points and that’s without turnovers. Ah hell why bother you should know that much, or do you?

I think we can win with what we have “IF” we can get better depth on the D line. That is I think your wrong SS is a solid NT, and RS is a solid DE, we need guys to spell these guys, and that means depth. We could use a great NT, or a great DE, no question, but just as important we need quality depth, and we don’t have that right now. EO hit the nail on the head if SF is still with the Browns come next season we are in deep dodo. I wouldn’t count the Browns out in the AH derby that will take place this off season. Tenn. could franchise him, or resign him that is within the realm of possibilities, but not a forgone conclusion. Your right though Tenn. is bound to try to keep him. We have other options though which you also pointed out. It’s far from a must trade DA thing though, we can address those needs and still keep DA, if we choose too.

We IMHO do not need to replace our entire LB core. Wow I can’t believe someone would even think that. Yes we could do far better then AD, and better then WM or AP, but that’s where it stops. DQ, is really coming into his own. His coverage skills are solid if not great and he is consistently around the ball, and is a good tackler. We could use a ILB that matches his skills, and we would be in really good shape, IMHO. Peek may be injury prone, or just not that good, I do not know. I do know that he has been dinged up all season. When he wasn’t dinged up, in pre season he was a solid pass rusher, but that was preseason. So I would agree we could use a bookend OLB that has the skill set of KW, that would be great, IMHO.

I generally agree with Vers when it comes to his football, but I don’t think replacing Pool is on the list of things the Browns feel they must do this off season. I think Pool has vastly improved from where he was at the start of the season, and continues to improve, as has the entire defense for that matter.

At the end of the day, if you stand back and look at where this team started the year on the defense and where they are now it is like night and day. I believe that the playing time the younger players got this season has just begun to pay off. The defense for the most part over the course of the last 5, 6 games have been good enough for the Browns to have won those games. Not great, but good enough, and vastly improved. With a few upgrades in terms of a quality starter for the DL, and added quality depth will be OK on the line next season. And with the addition of a OLB stud, KW type guy on the OLB spot will be vastly improved in terms of pass rush and in stopping the run. Where a lot closer then I think a lot of people realize IMHO. It started out a disaster it’s ending being OK, with hope for the future with a few additions. IMHO

Brown to the Bone

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I will say that it is possible to attain a FA that can have a similar impact to what Steinbach gave us this year, but I surely wouldn't count on it.

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Not only should u count on it...I'd just about BANK IT bud...

U listen to Savage...He PEGS exactly what's needed on this team...Then again...That ain't to hard to do lately...lol...

The list of "Needs" is becoming smaller and smaller...Most r defensively...Bout the only 2 on Offense r doing something with the RB spot and possibly a Berrian type Wide-out...

As much as u don't like Pool...I'd dismiss that one...FOR A REASON...He's a 1st year starter...He needs the time as much as anyone else...I leave FS OFF that list...

Here's the one that can be debated...OLB versus ILB...DL is a given...This is where I say BANK IT that Savage lines up the best available in FA much like Steiner and Bentley the previous 2 years...

I don't see Fisher letting Haynesworth get to the market...Then again we didn't think Steinbach would either...The 2nd DL would be Tommy Kelly of Oakland...One of those 2 will be a Brown come March...U then go after the best u can find in the EARLY rounds of the draft and get Roye and Frasier out of town...DL UPGRADED...

Now...U take that DL and add an ILB to the mix to get Davis out of the starting lineup...And I'm talkin' Carlos Dansby of Arizona...I go after Dansby LONG before I even touch Suggs at OLB...WHY???...Simple...And it's 2 fold...

Beafing up the DL and ILB spots improves the run defense IMMENSELY...This is key #1...STOP THY RUNNING GAME...U beef up that Defensive Front and u then become a much better pass rushing team...Having linemen that can penetrate the way Warren and Seymour do in New England will help any pass rush from the LB's...I don't care what anyone says about NE's LB's...The have ZERO STUDS...NONE...The LB's in NE do what they do because of the 3 UPFRONT...

U concentrate on the Defensive Front and your pass rush will improve...Any OLB addition we want can come from the Draft...DE's that are light in the ass can be had all day long on Day One of any draft...Dummerville's and Tapp's...THAT'S the way to do this without spending huge $$ on a Suggs...GET THE ILB...

The Secondary on this team is YOUNG...As much as we've witnessed the coming together of these Offensive Weapons we have...We can look to see the same thing happen with the Secondary on this team...Bodden/Wright/Jones/Pool and McDonald...THAT my friend is a SOLID 5 back there...When we see them come together is when we'll see Grantham open up this defensive scheme...It's already happened the latter half of this season...And it's because guys like Wright and Pool have become more experienced...In a 3-4 u CANNOT get Blitz Happy when u have such inexperienced youth out there...Particularly at CORNER...

THAT is why I say forget the OLB in FA...Forget the FS...Beef the DL and ILB spots and things will come...

And as much as u like Anderson...U might as well get used to the fact that he WILL NOT BE A BROWN IN 2008...We aren't stupid...Savage will Tender this kid HIGH...And to me it don't matter if it's for a 1st Rounder or a 1st & 3rd...One way or the other some QB Needy team will offer Anderson an INSANE contract that we WILL NOT MATCH...As young as he is...There's ENUFF on the table to say we cannot afford to commit that much cap space to an UNPROVEN commodity...That's how I see Savage playing this...Not with Quinn here...We ain't desperate...

Quinn got his contract bucks because of his draft slot...

Beef the DL and ILB spots up...Let Anderson go and take the Draft Compensation...Hit the Draft HARD Defensively...And u will be surprised how QUICKLY this Defense turns the corner...I'm counting on the fact that we will not need to throw up 30+ points every Sunday in order to even have a CHANCE at winning...

It's also why getting a Playoff Game under these guys belts is HUGE going forward...

Good post and I agree w/most of it. However, you are way off base on one thing and I think you are wrong on another. Let's take a look:

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As much as u don't like Pool...I'd dismiss that one...FOR A REASON...He's a 1st year starter...He needs the time as much as anyone else...I leave FS OFF that list...

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While I somewhat understand why most people don't see why Pool is so bad, I am a bit surprised none of you can connect the dots.

First of all.........we really don't see Pool in the screen getting beat for TDs. I guess that is why people think he is doing okay. Also, he did have a long interception return. So..........I suppose that is why you all think he isn't so bad.

Secondly..........have you ever tried connecting the dots? Why is this year's defense worse than last year's? I thought we slightly upgraded the talent on the DL and at LBer? Are you saying that both Smith brothers are worse than McKinley? Is Peek worse than Stewart? Is Wright worse than Holly? Is Bodden worse than Perry? Seriously man..............think about it.

Second connection-------------have you ever asked yourselves why we switched to playing Cover 2 in the secondary after the first few games in the year, when we hardly ever used it in the past? Why the need for putting two safeties 10 to 12 yds deep when we didn't do it last year when Russell was back there and when we didn't open up the this season in Cover 2? Why?

I'll tell you why............Pool sucks! He has the worst instincts of any safety I have ever seen. If you ever get your old, tired butt up to a game, put the binoculars on him and watch how slow he is to react. Watch how often he is nowhere near the ball? Watch how often he stands around. Watch his poor angles to the ball when he finally does move.

The guy is a stiff and has compromised the entire defense. I hate to throw my knowledge of Xs and Os at you.........but bro, I'm telling you.........this guy is killing our defense.

He hasn't just hurt the pass defense, but he has hurt our run defense too. Mainly because Jones has moved to playing deep and was such a force against the run last year. Additionally, the middle linebackers are being asked to get much deeper depth on their drops, making them less aggressive in the running game. The corner's have had more responsibility heaped on them too. Instead of having a third of the field to cover, they are now trailing receivers much more than in the past.

Pool needs to go. If he doesn't..........the defense will once again suck next year.

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And as much as u like Anderson...U might as well get used to the fact that he WILL NOT BE A BROWN IN 2008...We aren't stupid...Savage will Tender this kid HIGH...And to me it don't matter if it's for a 1st Rounder or a 1st & 3rd...One way or the other some QB Needy team will offer Anderson an INSANE contract that we WILL NOT MATCH...As young as he is...There's ENUFF on the table to say we cannot afford to commit that much cap space to an UNPROVEN commodity...That's how I see Savage playing this...Not with Quinn here...We ain't desperate...

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LOL...............What's Quinn proven in the NFL?

And don't give me this "as much as you like Anderson" crap. I never liked the guy. Hell, I said he might get cut in camp. I was wrong. The guy played good football this year. I can admit when I was wrong. Some of you guys oughta try it once and awhile.

I ain't saying who is going to be the QB next year. But it seems to me, that you better damn well make sure that Quinn get the job done before you get rid of a guy who did get it done.

Somehow, I know that logic will escape most of you....... .............I just hope it doesn't escape the Brown's brass.

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I don't know what the game plan was but in the first 28 1/2 minutes we gave up 108 yards rushing.. which resulted in 6 points (then without them running the ball at all, we gave up 13 points on 25 yards of offense) then in the final 30 minutes when the Bengals WANTED to run the clock we gave up just over 40 more yards rushing and no points... Whatever the Bengals did to amass 108 yards rushing in the first half, the Browns figured it out and got it fixed.....

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the MAIN THING THAT HAPPEND was in the 1st half we were never down by less than a TD until there was a minute left in it ... at the start of the 2nd half they were up by 19 ... that meant we were going to see a MUCH BIGGER DOSE OF RUNNING witch makes the run much easier to defend .. we more than likely put more men in the box ..

football is a VERY VERY SITUATIONALLY ORIENTATED game ... and this is a HUGE EXAMPLE of it .. and its also another perfect example of WHY STATS ARE FOR LOSERS!!!!!!!

Ngata is who we should have drafted....Ngata to our DL = Thomas to our OL...ngata was that "important" to us...Ngata is a better player than Wimbely...in the area we needed most..."Run Defense
Oh o.k...while I WAS one of the foremost ones after Ngata..let's see things for what they are...
I have not seen him being a force for the Ratbirds..thats all that needs to be said..
Second..it's FACT that Rac told Phil what he needed immedately...a PASS RUSHER..and a kid coming out who really hasn't played OLB in a 34 needed time to develop..
What KW needs to work on is gaining strength to load up for run support and learn to drop down in coverage, plus develop more pass rush moves..

Our DL is in bad shaperight now. Shaun Smith is not a 3-4 NT..he is a decet Defensive End at best
Tabber this is mine..
Dude are U nuts??
The dude's skillset says NT...not DE...he has the power and the agility/leverage to play NT better than any NT we've had..he's been playing out of position since they moved him to replace Roye..

You're totally off on that..he needs to be plugged in there and left there..even if he would become a backup to a more dominate NT..
So stop the crying over Ngata.. Smith needs to be plugged in there and grow..

GMAB..R.Smith isn't old he's just older..Roye is old and wearing down..he needs replaced with a young stud..
All I know is you add two Dlinemen and a freaking stud at SAM spot and this D will take off...

One more thing...actually two more..they're not front 7 , but we need another CB ..and yes while I've had some time to muse over this..(bout 10 minutes) we may need another FS...yes I almost have to agree with Vers on this ..
I'm usually not wrong about DB's..but I sense something that lacks in Pool..he's not as instinctive as I like to see..
Tenative...he's hesitant ...almost like he doesn't know his responsibility..or is unsure what to do..I don't know that it is..maybe he was relying on Russell more than I thought..

When I look at our CB's...especially Wright/McDonald..while they are young they are very instinctive..Wright matured a lot during this season..they make plays..they're not afraid ...they're confident in their abilities..

I don't see that in Pool...I have held out on him, thinking he might get it..he might..but he has to improve and step up next season or I'll be clamouring for a new FS..

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When I look at our CB's...especially Wright/McDonald..while they are young they are very instinctive..Wright matured a lot during this season..they make plays..
I don't see that in Pool...I have held out on him, thinking he might get it..he might..but he has to improve and step up next season or I'll be clamouring for a new FS..

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I've got to agree with Attack here, and Vers to a degree.

I admit I liked Pool and thought he could develop into a darn good FS. After the 1st couple of games, after it was obvious we missed Russel's Leadership in the secondary, I started watching Jones and Pool a little closer.

Pool just doesn't seem to react to Zones very well. He seems to do MUCH better when he has a singular responsibility. Such as covering a TE or focusing on one area of coverage without having to react. Notice how he seems to play better in smaller areas of coverage such as the red zone.

Pool seems to me to be one hell of an athlete, but might just not get it mentaly. But like Attack, I think maybe we need to give him one more yr. and see how he does with some more experience under his belt.

Does that mean we don't look at another FS, maybe as a lower tier FA or even in the latter rounds of the draft........nope not at all. It my actually put some heat on him this offseason to get his responsiblities more down pat and recognize a little more of opposing offensive schemes..

Guilty , never have been a Pool supporter ! ,, Didn't lile him as a project second rounder and was not happy when Savage didn't resign Russell .. Folks refuse to admit , tha t Russell made a huge difference in the Back Field ..

lol honeymoon over.
1. Pool has been on your chit list from day one. Yes you will admit when you're wrong but only after the kid is a proven Pro-Bowler level.

2. "have you ever asked yourselves why we switched to playing Cover 2 in the secondary after the first few games in the year"... What I do know is we played Cover 2 in both the Steeler Game and in the Bengal Game. So your insinuations are wrong.

3. He has improved especially in the the 2nd half of this season. Btw - I see us in Cover 1 more n more as Grantham switches it up and blitzes Jones a lot.

4. Your Sherlock Holmes deductive reasoning is bulldinky
a. last year we had no offense to speak of...yes that does change a lot of what the opposing offense will play.
b. we had many injuries to the CBs the only way we could play Defense was with a strict Zone...man up we would get destroyed as all would be a mismatch! Yes, Russell excelled in the Zone it was perfect for a smart but not so talented FS.
c. We let Russell walk too easily - we knew we would be demanding a lot more talent from our Safety this year. Unless you think Savage simply doesn't have a clue?
d. Show me one game these past 10 of which we lost cause of our poor play from Pool. Jones did go into a funk for a few games with his coverage on the TEs but I saw only improvement from Pool.

5. We played almost exclusively a Cover 1 in that Snow game with Buffalo and Pool stayed home deep. He also prevented around 3 TDs as he was the last banion of D left and made good solid open field tackles.

6. Can he improve? But of course he's at the tip of the iceberg stage...but you see no iceberg - just a floating breakoff that is destined to melt down.

You are setting yourself up for a big - SAVAGE sucks - as you paint yourself in a corner - cause Pool is not even in question and no where close to being a disappointment to the team and those who evaluate. So the only recourse is you will not be wrong so that means Savage must Suck?

But I've seen this from you before...let put it this way - Pool Sucks about as much as Braylon Edwards Sucked.

JMHO - DL agreed, LB agreed - but you are barking up the wrong tree to remotely put FS in the mix. And its more cause you are like a PitBull with those locking jaws but in this case its your locking opinion. And you've had this bias...locked opinion on Pool from the first day he was drafted.

Huff--Huff! Puff--Puff!

Seriously Vers...you seem to think DA can come around....do you think Pool could do same? The guy is, what, 21?

It seems to me he has played better of late...but...I'll admit I wouldn't know why...just seems to be around the ball more and making plays.

this team has had so many holes that a lot of phil's decisions can't be considered bad...

now that certain positions have been solidified, phil will have more pressure to draft and also sign in free agency, the guys that can fit the remaining holes, while still building depth in very important places (like the offensive line)

i don't think wimbley was a bad pick, would ngata have worked out? absolutely, but i think once a defensive line is filled, wimbley can be as good as any 3/4 pass rushing linebacker in the league...

he's not the reason we have a bad defense...

not to mention that i really like the progressions this team has made in the last 5 or 6 weeks... they are getting better, there is still plenty of things to improve on, but i think their defensive rankings aren't as bad as they are made out to be...

i was in cleveland the last few days, andi've heard a lot about lance briggs possibly coming into cleveland, and living in chicago, and seeing a ton of bears football, i would love to see briggs come to cleveland... there are some minor off-the-field issues, but for the most part, he's a great teammate, and a hard worker, and i think he can definitely play in the 3/4... but it will definitely cost top dollar, but again, this guy has his best years still ahead of him...

and i'd also like to note that when lance briggs was in his dispute with the bears (who are notorious for penny pinching), each and every one of his teammates stood up for him, he'd be a great fit in cleveland...

and while it's not exactly a long shot to get him, or a for sure thing, if you can get him, or another good linebacker to add, then maybe phil can target either getting back into the first, or using his second and maybe finding the right DL to fit romeo's defense, and with that, they'd be that much better going into the 2008 season...

i think you also have to keep in mind that coming into next season, a lot of our younger guys on defense (which we have many) will be another year older and wiser, and that could also help

I am sure that Phil noticed the fact that the Browns are near the bottom of the league in sacks and defensive yards against the run.

Look at the NE model, Seymor and Wilfolk anchor a very good DL. This allows even old men such as Seau to continue to play.

I would be investing in linemen first, then linebackers.

My first pick or signing would be a NT. You can't play the 3-4 with an NT that does not require a true double team. This is not just 3 players, you really need 6 to play effectively against the run and pass.

I will use the analogy with the OL. For years we complained about the OL, and finally it was fixed this year. All of a sudden, the QB, recievers, RB's and TE's have spectacular years and the O is a force to be considered.

With respect for the LB's the selection of DQ a couple years ago still raises questions. Ideally the 3-4 LB should be able to rush from any position and DQ is just to light in the pants to fulfill this need. He can be effective as a coverage LB, but that limits the ability of the D to implement zone blitzes.

Ok D' Quell is ok and will get better. He's not a high powered candidate yet for the All Pro team. He does well on the rush. Not excellent! He is also an outside LB. He looks like a deer in the headlights on other responsibilities. Leon williams is a good tackler when he is motivated and wraps up! Andrea Davis is a back up in my opinion. Still can't shake off double team or has any quick latteral movement. There are about 20 better ILB than him in the league. I, like the man and his passion, and integrity! Antwan Peak has had some injuries that have slowed him down as well, but he used to be a better player. I am stating fact and opinion! I like the fact that you stand up for our players. I am not a patient man for lack of performance and production! I believe that there are some changes to be made. After all we not undefeated! We are not even in the top 5 defenses in football! I am not the head coach or the Defensive Coordinator! I am dissapointed in the progress, skills, and bottom line results. I give all Our LBs credit for what they achieved this year in winning 9 games. we as a team still give up to many points! I will on the other hand admit that some are to be replaced next year! I want to see us aquire an dominate LB or two for the middle. I want an LT on the outside and can cover the flats with ease. I want better recognition of what they review in practice. Everyone has the right to their opinion. I respect yours. You can call me out any time. Go Browns!!!!!

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Seriously Vers...you seem to think DA can come around....do you think Pool could do same? The guy is, what, 21?

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I see what you are saying, but there is a big difference in the play of DA and Pool.

DA was a Pro Bowl alternate, in the conference that has the best QBs. Despite what people are saying on this board, DA does some great things on the football field. He makes throws that very few QBs in the league can make. And he makes a lot of those throws on 3rd and long, when the defense is ready for a long pass. He is very calm and his teammates really believe in him. Other than the Bengal game, his decision making improved as the year went along. I don't think he is as inaccurate as people on here make him out to be. The last two games were "wind" games. Think back and think of what the two opposing QBs did in those games. Anderson actually threw the ball better than both of those guys.

Pool could improve, but the guy lacks football instincts. That is hard to overcome. The guy is strong and fast. He's the kind of guy who looks great at events such as the Combine, but the sad reality is...........when he puts on the pads, he doesn't get the job done. And the story w/him and coaching staff is that he has lacked the instincts from Day 1. And that is still true today. He's improved some, but his instincts are still putrid, and you just can't be an effective FS in this league w/poor instincts. If you go to the game tomorrow........focus on him for a few plays. Then focus on Jones for a few plays. Then focus on the safeties for SF. You'll see what I am talking about. I guarantee which one of the four will be slowest to react and standing around the most.

The play of the front seven will improve once we replace this stiff. With that said, it won't be enough. However, after Savage's work w/the offense, I pretty confident he will get it done. It might not be all this year, but he will probably get enough talent in here to at least make this defense respectable.

To do that.........we need at least two new defensive linemen, another OLB, and of course.......a new FS. We have to get more pressure on the QB. And I'm not just talking about sacks........I'm talking pressures. I haven't seen a team worse than ours at forcing hurries. We give opposing QBs way too much time and the room to step into their throws. That has to end. If we get a couple of guys who can improve our pass rush and a new FS who will allow our SS and our MLBers to be more active in the run game........well......our defense will improve by leaps and bounds.

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To do that.........we need at least two new defensive linemen, another OLB, and of course.......a new FS. We have to get more pressure on the QB. And I'm not just talking about sacks........I'm talking pressures. I haven't seen a team worse than ours at forcing hurries. We give opposing QBs way too much time and the room to step into their throws. That has to end. If we get a couple of guys who can improve our pass rush and a new FS who will allow our SS and our MLBers to be more active in the run game........well......our defense will improve by leaps and bounds.

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Vers, so you think we need an OLB more than a ILB?

I am thinking that, though I feel we could use someone to play opposite Wimbley and take some of the heat off of him, I beleive we need an ILB more. It just seems to me that the two Additional DL you mentioned and a New and Improved ILB, would do wonders for our run D.

As for Pool, I talked about that in another post, but to sum that one up.......I don't think we totally give up on him YET, but I would not be opposed AT ALL to bringing in a lower priced FA or drafting another Safety in the 3rd round or lower.

Fair enough...I can't go to the game this week and even if I did, I would have a hard time seeing Pool's ability...I just have a tough time not following the ball.

Your comments make me curious about the FO letting Russell go...maybe they thought Pool was ready...maybe thought Russell was too much money....I dunno. I read all the time what a mistake it was to let him go due to his leadership...but I think people questioned his athletic ability in our "scheme"...whatever that is.

Does Pool make sense as maybe a nickel? A corner? A punt returner? I hate to see such an athlete be difficult to utilize.

While we are on this topic, what about Willie M for next year. He's as big as a lineman and lines up over the Center with some regularity...is he worth keeping for another year or two? Can he be a big ILB w/ DQ as the other?

I'm looking for any opinions on these questions in addition to those of Vers.

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Vers, so you think we need an OLB more than a ILB?

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Yes, I think so.

As I mentioned before, our lack of a pass rush is killing us. We make terrible QBs look good. They simply have too much time to throw. Another OLB would not only help in the run game, but could also be an asset as a pass rusher.

Furthermore, I think the play of our MLBers would improve if we actually had a few effective defensive linemen. I always like Roye, but he clearly isn't the same player he used to be. R. Smith is good at times, but he takes too many plays off. S. Smith is a backup. He chooses a side and goes hard. He often chooses the wrong side. He's similar to G. Warren in that way. In short, he doesn't eat blocks.

If we had a couple of effective defensive linemen who would either:
(a) make plays, or
(b) command double teams because of their ability to make plays

------our middle linebackers would look much better.

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As for Pool, I talked about that in another post, but to sum that one up.......I don't think we totally give up on him YET,

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I don't know that we totally give up on him. He could be dime guy and a special teams' player. All I know is that he is the worst FS I have seen in a long time. He needs replaced in the starting lineup. We just can't continue to allow this guy to compromise our defense as much as he does.

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I dunno. I read all the time what a mistake it was to let him go due to his leadership...but I think people questioned his athletic ability in our "scheme"...whatever that is.

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I think that might just be something you read--as in one or more of hot-aired posters--as opposed to anything based in fact.

New England's safeties haven't always been the most athletic. In fact, I remember an interview w/RAC when he was in NE and he kept talking about how important it was to have two very intelligent safeties. He said it was the key to their defense. That comment shocked some people at the time, because that was when NEs lbers were a real force.

To sum that up............you need intelligent, instinctive safeties in our defense. Those two traits are much more important than athleticism.

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While we are on this topic, what about Willie M for next year. He's as big as a lineman and lines up over the Center with some regularity...is he worth keeping for another year or two? Can he be a big ILB w/ DQ as the other?

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I don't know if we keep Willie another year. I have been one of his biggest supporters. The run defense improved once he returned. He maintains good gap responsibility and is able to slide down the line while engaged, but his motor is not near where it used to be.

I certainly don't think he could play inside. His lateral movement would prohibit him from making a lot of the necessary plays. And once again......while I don't think our MLBers are great, they are better than most on here give them credit for. That is especially true in regards to Andra Davis.

Question about Peek...Has his play this year that has been hampered by his nagging ankle injury enough for the coaches to come up with a read on him? Do they believe he can be an effective pass rusher?

There is one major thing that gets overlooked in the NE defense discussion.

Responsibilities.

In our version of the 3-4 the DL frees the LBs to make plays thus:

It sucks to be a D-Lineman.

It's great to be a LB.

Therefore you have to draft DL or get bottom of the barrel DL from FA. No one wants to clog things up all game so that someone else can make plays. If you're a top notch DL in free agency you run as fast as you can to a one-gap penetrating defensive team. If you luck out and draft a guy like Seymore who commands double team schemes then you're team is really in business!

On the flip side LBs LOVE to play in a 3-4. You have big bodies eating up blockers, you are able to blitz from time to time in a disguised play, all you need is rack up tackles. Athleticism is important but presnap recognition and post snap smarts are what get the job done. That's why ancient ILBs work in the 3-4.

To recap:

In a 3-4 defense you draft DL and get the best FA LBs. JMHO

1st Held our defense is NE defense. RAC was the guy that installed the 3-4 in NE, same as he did here. How would that make us different??

2nd, the idea that nobody would want to come play for us on the D line is well stupid. Seems to me just last off season SS had his agent contact the Browns. He knew he was a better fit in a 3-4. The ideas your putting out there are way off the mark. Players that fit our defense WILL want to come here and play. Not to mention I am certain that the Browns have caught the eye of quite a few players that are about to hit the FA market.

#3 Money talks regardless of what defense a team runs. Pay the guy he is yours period. If the Browns feel the guy is a good fit, the player most likely will feel the same way.

#4 the Browns are now a winning team that lacks a few pieces especially on the Dline if a player feels that he can fill that void, and join a winning team why wouldn't that player want to play for the Browns/ Winning team.

Brown to the Bone

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Question about Peek...Has his play this year that has been hampered by his nagging ankle injury enough for the coaches to come up with a read on him? Do they believe he can be an effective pass rusher?

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I don't know. I haven't heard anything about Peek.

When was his injury? Seems to me that he wasn't playing at a high level even before his injury. I'm not saying he sucks, but I don't think he is a complete player. I do know that the run defense improved on that side once Willie came back and Peek started coming off the field on a lot of 1st and 2nd down plays.


Brown to the Bone: I agree that I think the Browns will be able to attract quality defensive linemen here. Some guys are natural fits for the 3-4. Man, I wish we would have gotten Williams a few years ago instead of Baxter.

We got Steiny last year and the Browns do seem to be a team on the rise. They have a very good offense and it is well known that the defense is sub-par. It would be an enticing fit for a FA defensive player.

2 D-linemen.

1 OLB.

1 FS.

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Vers, any chance you could start a thread on Pool and what you see with him?

From the naked eye, there seems to be improvement there. Could just be the overall defensive play is making the safety play look better.

To be honest, I don't see him much in games. Which I guess is a double-edged sword.

But you've now mentioned the need for a new FS about 75 times ...so I was wondering if you could be more specific in your thoughts.

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I don't like starting threads, but if you look at what I said in this thread alone, you will see my points. Here are a few:




While I somewhat understand why most people don't see why Pool is so bad, I am a bit surprised none of you can connect the dots.

First of all.........we really don't see Pool in the screen getting beat for TDs. I guess that is why people think he is doing okay. Also, he did have a long interception return. So..........I suppose that is why you all think he isn't so bad.

Secondly..........have you ever tried connecting the dots? Why is this year's defense worse than last year's? I thought we slightly upgraded the talent on the DL and at LBer? Are you saying that both Smith brothers are worse than McKinley? Is Peek worse than Stewart? Is Wright worse than Holly? Is Bodden worse than Perry? Seriously man..............think about it.

Second connection-------------have you ever asked yourselves why we switched to playing Cover 2 in the secondary after the first few games in the year, when we hardly ever used it in the past? Why the need for putting two safeties 10 to 12 yds deep when we didn't do it last year when Russell was back there and when we didn't open up the this season in Cover 2? Why?

I'll tell you why............Pool sucks! He has the worst instincts of any safety I have ever seen. If you ever get your old, tired butt up to a game, put the binoculars on him and watch how slow he is to react. Watch how often he is nowhere near the ball? Watch how often he stands around. Watch his poor angles to the ball when he finally does move.

The guy is a stiff and has compromised the entire defense. I hate to throw my knowledge of Xs and Os at you.........but bro, I'm telling you.........this guy is killing our defense.

He hasn't just hurt the pass defense, but he has hurt our run defense too. Mainly because Jones has moved to playing deep and was such a force against the run last year. Additionally, the middle linebackers are being asked to get much deeper depth on their drops, making them less aggressive in the running game. The corner's have had more responsibility heaped on them too. Instead of having a third of the field to cover, they are now trailing receivers much more than in the past.

Pool needs to go. If he doesn't..........the defense will once again suck next year.


I see what you are saying, but there is a big difference in the play of DA and Pool.

DA was a Pro Bowl alternate, in the conference that has the best QBs. Despite what people are saying on this board, DA does some great things on the football field. He makes throws that very few QBs in the league can make. And he makes a lot of those throws on 3rd and long, when the defense is ready for a long pass. He is very calm and his teammates really believe in him. Other than the Bengal game, his decision making improved as the year went along. I don't think he is as inaccurate as people on here make him out to be. The last two games were "wind" games. Think back and think of what the two opposing QBs did in those games. Anderson actually threw the ball better than both of those guys.

Pool could improve, but the guy lacks football instincts. That is hard to overcome. The guy is strong and fast. He's the kind of guy who looks great at events such as the Combine, but the sad reality is...........when he puts on the pads, he doesn't get the job done. And the story w/him and coaching staff is that he has lacked the instincts from Day 1. And that is still true today. He's improved some, but his instincts are still putrid, and you just can't be an effective FS in this league w/poor instincts. If you go to the game tomorrow........focus on him for a few plays. Then focus on Jones for a few plays. Then focus on the safeties for SF. You'll see what I am talking about. I guarantee which one of the four will be slowest to react and standing around the most.

The play of the front seven will improve once we replace this stiff. With that said, it won't be enough. However, after Savage's work w/the offense, I pretty confident he will get it done. It might not be all this year, but he will probably get enough talent in here to at least make this defense respectable.

To do that.........we need at least two new defensive linemen, another OLB, and of course.......a new FS. We have to get more pressure on the QB. And I'm not just talking about sacks........I'm talking pressures. I haven't seen a team worse than ours at forcing hurries. We give opposing QBs way too much time and the room to step into their throws. That has to end. If we get a couple of guys who can improve our pass rush and a new FS who will allow our SS and our MLBers to be more active in the run game........well......our defense will improve by leaps and bounds.



I don't know that we totally give up on him. He could be dime guy and a special teams' player. All I know is that he is the worst FS I have seen in a long time. He needs replaced in the starting lineup. We just can't continue to allow this guy to compromise our defense as much as he does.


I think that might just be something you read--as in one or more of hot-aired posters--as opposed to anything based in fact.

New England's safeties haven't always been the most athletic. In fact, I remember an interview w/RAC when he was in NE and he kept talking about how important it was to have two very intelligent safeties. He said it was the key to their defense. That comment shocked some people at the time, because that was when NEs lbers were a real force.

To sum that up............you need intelligent, instinctive safeties in our defense. Those two traits are much more important than athleticism.

Does that help?

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When was his injury? Seems to me that he wasn't playing at a high level even before his injury.

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I just read through the Browns archived articles and Pool first injury was the opener. He was in a boot for several weeks while still playing. He has been on the injury report for every week since.

Did you mean Peek?

I don't think the guy is an every down player, but we'll see.

I think I was talking to DnD when I said "old, tired butt."

tab thinks Pool is good. At least that what he says publicly. You know......it's the Savage only makes good moves line of thinking.

hehehe...posted a reply...well reply to your other replies - I guess you'll have to take the short version. If its curt in form its cause I did the long nicer version before.

1. LBs we agree. I see Wimbley and DQ as good role players but neither are a dominating force by themselves like a Patrick Willis or a Lawrence Taylor type. But in the 3-4 its important that we have 4 studs starting. I see two in DQ n Wimbley but we still need more from the other two positions.

AD - we can't play in the snow every game...he just is too slow and not a good tackler.

McG - love his discipline and smarts - he has lost his legs its a shame to look sometimes and I feel sorry for him.

Peek - I see nothing special from him...he's a depth guy and if we lose Thompson will replace him although I'd rather have Thompson (Peek is a better pass rusher but Thompson has more versatility).

Leon - ??? Just very undisciplined.

2. DL we agree.
I think the Smith boys are keepers and starters. Robaire - looks good now but I have no idea when his legs will go. We need to prepare for his loss somewhere in the future.
Roye - he seems done.
We need another starter and at least 2 more upgrades. Fraser just can't match ability with his heart.

FS - for some reason we disagree.

and huffy puffy is a pitiful argument. We can debate like men, we don't have to get mad at each other. I can take it.

1. We have been playing a lot of Cover 1 lately. I feel that was very shrewd of you to ask others to watch Pool at the game...he'll be slow to react compared to the others.

2. We are blitzing more n more taking risks with run blitz and pass blitzes....Pool is asked to stay back and not react quickly to anything but stay back like a true FS with the responsibility of stopping the HomeRuns. Of course he's going to look like he's not reacting. I can't believe you said that.

3. You insinuated that the coaching staff knows that he simply can't do it on the field once he puts the pads on therefore he has no future of improvement.
I fail to see why he can't improve....but thats a moot point. I can only assume you are playing the Iside Info card. Possibly your inside guy has it wrong. Cause silly me.
We didn't go after any wiley vet FS in the off season.
We did let a wiley vet simply walk from here at not a great cost.
You say it is that way according to the Coaching staff and yet every we move or non move we made towards that positions states otherwise.

Again I think you're painting yourself in the corner here with a Savage thing cause the only thing that would state is that Savage is going against what his coaches want. I just find that very odd and think that Savage would bend over backwards to give the coaches what they want.

Savage also has not shown favoritism to his draft picks. He dumped Frye a 3rd rounder quickly. He let Perkins go. A 4th. I see no pressure to play Wilson.

Pool is young...he is improving. He's a good tackler and is not afraid to lay the wood...I think he's a little aprehensive after getting 2 penalties earlier in the year. I see him making some nice plays on runs and he has made some good open field tackles as the last of the line defense. Again in that snow game he made several TD saving tackles as the lone safety cause Jones was up close and aggressive.

Anyways hopefully I will get some football talk from you - I don't bite and we can do this without it becoming personal. At least I think we can

Ahhh...harmony and courtesy on the message board...just like the good 'ole days

Now...where's Diam to screw it all up.

Believe what you wanna believe. I know Pool is awful and your cheap shots aren't changing my mind.

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Peek - I see nothing special from him...he's a depth guy and if we lose Thompson will replace him although I'd rather have Thompson (Peek is a better pass rusher but Thompson has more versatility).

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I don't agree with you or Vers at this point. Peek has played injured this entire season. He had his foot in a boot for three weeks and played on Sundays. That has to have some effect on his game. He came here playing as a 4-3 DE, a position he is not physically equipped to play. From everything I have heard he is a good pass rusher but I do not know if he can play the run. I know I can't go by what I've seen so far this year.

Even when he was healthy he was average. He is a good situational pass rusher but not an every down backer.

No Rish, it was not a very good debate. eotab always has to make it personal. He says I was being "shrewd" when I said Pool would be the last one to react. He's suggesting that I am trying to deceive you guys. That's a load of crap. Pool is the last to react not due where he is at in our defense, but because he is not an instinctive player. It bothers me when he accused me of not being honest and then his answer is completely dishonest. Pool's being slow to react has NOTHING to do w/his responsibilities in our defense. And if it is one thing I do know...........it's about what players are supposed to do in offensive and defensive sets.

Then tab comes back w/the stupid Savage angle. I have already said that I think Savage will get the job done over a dozen times since I came back to the board, but tab is still fighting his fight. I don't want to be dragged down into his nonsense anymore. You "debate" w/him. I'm going to stick to reporting my observations and you all can make up your own minds. I really don't care if you all agree w/me or not and I know damn well no one really changes their mind. I only care about saying what I feel is to be the truth. And everything I said about Pool is the truth.

One man's cheap shot is another man's debate. I didn't see eo's points as a cheap shot but if you did then perhaps he may want to reconsider his debating style.

I do agree with you for the most part. I think Pool leaves a lot to be desired. I also think Phil is not going to address the safety position this year. I think the DLine will be the main object of his scrutiny this off season.

"Believe what you wanna believe. I know Pool is awful and your cheap shots aren't changing my mind."

Another compelling argument.

I apologize for proving my point and that must be construed as taking cheap shots at you.

You mean if I disagree and probably know as much football as you (I think its more ) every point I make is considered a cheap shot.

I can't remember trying to be ever so gentle in my arguments to keep it to football.

But obviously you don't want discussion, you don't want debate - You simply wish to dictate. Here I thought maybe you had changed and we could start fresh and keep it to football and nothing personal.

So basically what you are saying was I was right on every account and you can't come up with a football argument to prove your biased opinion. Cheap Shots??? or just Proving you WRONG - AGAIN

Later - you disappointed me

Hey guys...what happened to harmony and courtesy? Oh well, Christmas season must be officially over.

The football stuff on all sides is good though...

The other stuff...well...