DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Haslems Buy 176 Acre Property In Brookpark

That's possible. If the city won't come to the table it becomes more of a possibility. I don't know how a cost analysis would work with something like this. I know there's always an argument with the dome it would be constantly filled with all kinds of other events... color me skeptical.

Cleveland is not quite the destination as many other places where these huge projects have come to pass. You're also talking about Haslam spending 3B+... with no help from Cleveland if it's outside the limits.

Have you ever been to a Browns game? If you have, or have this city in your blood, you would probably have strong feelings about our stadium being on the shores of Lake Erie.

Just some examples of numbers:

The new Las Vegas Raiders stadium area consists of 41.322 acres.

Patriot Place (minus the stadium) area consists of 29.84 acres. Or>
The Star District for the Dallas Cowboys consists of 40 acres consisting of 35 restaurants, shops, parking garages, and specialty services. 

The new Las Vegas Headquarters/Training Facility consists of 30 acres. Or>
The new Dallas Cowboys Headquarters/Training Facility consists of 51 acres consisting of much more than a training facility such as DALLAS COWBOYS RING OF HONOR WALK PRESENTED BY DR PEPPER, TOSTITOS CHAMPIONSHIP PLAZA, MILLER LITE®HOUSE AT THE STAR, BAYLOR SCOTT AND WHITE HEALTH, HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL TRIBUTE PRESENTED BY TEXAS LOTTERY COMMISSION, Ford Center is a state-of-the-art, 510,000 square foot indoor athletic facility shared by the Dallas Cowboys, the City of Frisco, and Frisco ISD’s high schools.

Anyway, the total acreage needed would be between 102 acres and 133 acres leaving at least 40 plus acres for additional parking or expansion.

The numbers seem to fall withing the range of building a massive entertainment complex including a new stadium and headquarters/training facility.

I've been to more than 30 Browns games at the stadium as a spectator and also spent 2 seasons working concessions inside the stadium. So, I get the sentimental part, but things change.

Just spitballing here but it seems Halsam could do much of what you have described on much less acreage than what he purchased. I believe it could be accomplished using half or less than half the land he purchased. But can you imagine how much the rest of that land would be worth if he decided to sell it off after the stadium was complete? The value of that remaining land would skyrocket.

I can understand why the citizens of Cleveland would be upset about the possibility of the stadium being built outside the city. I can also see how Halslam may see that as the most advantageous move he could make. Most people hate the idea of they themselves having to deal with the government. Until it's Haslam. Then they expect him to deal with it at possibly much great expense to himself. Cleveland already lost the Browns once by dragging its heals. If Haslam can't work out a satisfactory deal with the city of Cleveland, at least he isn't bribing another city and moving the Browns. Those who remember those days should be thankful for that.

But tradition is something that's hard to let go of.

An entire complex is the direction I think they (the owners) all want to go. The added year-round revenue would be massive. Add a couple of hotels to that land, and maybe a second sports complex for his other teams (can be multi-purpose like Gund Arena or whatever its name is this week). It could also be an additional Convention facility.

Hosting a Super Bowl at your stadium has specific requirements, and if he ever wants to have one at his team's stadium, a LOT has to be added to Cleveland's facilities.

It just occurred to me that some of the land will be "lost" for traffic management in to and out of the area.
Lots of roads will have to be widened and then the land inside will have to accommodate vastly more traffic than that area currently handles. I-480 ramps, Rt 237 access, I-71 ramps, etc

Yeah, that land is going to shrink a fair amount due to infrastructure. 176 acres sounds like a lot until you try to make it into something special.

For comparison, Cowboys stadium is on 140 acres. Granted, it's huge and can house 100,000, but there is a stadium and parking -- that's it.

Patriot Place is a huge: Shopping, restaurants, a hotel, practice facilities and Patriot HOF... 450 acres.


There's room on this site for a VIP hotel and a decent food/shopping alley (vendors and food trucks would be cool), a decent amount of parking... that's about all.

Plenty of room, but the "wow" factor would have to be created by the structure itself and sensible infrastructure.

I imagine it would improve convenience for out-of-towners being that the airport is right there. Something creative could be done to take advantage of the fact that the Rapid Transit has a stop across the street as well.

That's easy. Right there is your built-in, ready-to-roll transport from the airport to your hotel complex and stadium as well as transportation from as far as the east side to the stadium.

More likely than not, however, that land will likely:

** sit in it's current state until all existing leases on buildings on it are up, perhaps indefinitely, then be re-sold for a profit in 5-10 years
** be a new training facility at a location with better highway access than Berea (and perhaps better tax situation)
** was a feint to spur the City of Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, and the State of Ohio to get in gear on a serious proposal

The only thing about your last point is the state of Ohio will gain whether the new stadium is in Cleveland or by the airport.

If the city of Cleveland proper loses the stadium and the Browns it’s going to hurt the city significantly. There’s no getting out of that. They’ve been trying for decades to resuscitate downtown, bringing the Cavs back, the guardians their own park, all the on-again, off-again flats development, east 4th and Ohio city etc etc. It would be a huge psychological and financial hit to the city if the browns moved out. Lots of other hard-luck cities have figured out how keep their gems close and build their relevance and appeal to the people and business that would want to move into a city and be part of a growing thriving community. The powers that be in the city have to make it happen or this is just the kind of thing that starts a more general exodus. And once an exodus builds a little momentum, it’s very hard to reverse. It’s taken Cleveland 60 years to stem the loss of population and jobs and it’s only just leveled off in the last 5-7. So yea, it’s still great for Ohio but Cleveland, the city the Browns represent would be hurt pretty bad.

I don't care about it being on the lakefront. The lakefront limits ingress and egress.

Also, Haslam wouldn't be forced to pay the entire amount. He would still get county and state support if push came to shove. LOL...he might still get support from the city. I suppose he could call the team the Brookpark Browns unless the city paid for naming rights.(mostly kidding here)

A good oration on why the city needs to quit dragging their feet. The best solution is for the city to find the 50-60 acres of ground inside the city limits and build there, and keep the Browns playing on the lakefront until the new stadium project is complete.

If it took one more year due to moving things around in the way of site work and relocations, I am sure the city and Browns would find a way to extend the lease a year. The land purchase out in Brookpark willl still be a valuable addition to the Haslam portfolio.

I could be wrong, but it seems that the owners that are cash heavy want more than just a stadium. The trend seems to be having a complex that they can put their signature on. The Cowboys, New England, Las Vegas, Los Angeles and eventually Carolina are building whole complexes with multi use capabilities. I'm not sure that 50-60 acres will meet those desires and the Brookpark purchase is a strong message being sent to the city of Cleveland as to the thought process of the Haslam's. JMHO, the city lost the Browns once by dragging their feet - which by the way they eventually did anyway - haven't they learned the lesson yet?

If you look at the oldest stadiums in the NFL:
Bears - Soldiers Field 1929 - Renovated in 2003 for 632M but team in process of looking for a new site & stadium
Packers - Lambeau Field 1957 - Last renovated in 2003 for 295M
Chiefs - Arrowhead Stadium 1972 - In the process of negotiating a new stadium or major renovation
Bills - New Era Field 1973 - The New Highmark Stadium is scheduled to open in 2026
Saints - Caesars Superdome 1975 - Last renovated in 2011 for 450M
Dolphins - Hard Rock Stadium 1987 - Last renovated in 2016 for 755M
Jaguars - EverBank Field 1995 - Renovations are scheduled to start in 2025 and take 2-years to complete
Panthers - Bank of America Stadium 1996 - Renovations in progress and additional talks continue
Washington - FedEx Field 1997 - 2023 stadium upgrade at 40M
Ravens - M&T Bank Stadium 1998 - The Ravens announced a multi-year 430M project (2024-2026) to enhance M&T Bank Stadium with significant projects to upgrade the stadium
Buccaneers - Raymond James Stadium 1998 -160M in stadium renovations made in 2016-2018
Browns - Browns Stadium 1999 - last renovated during the NFL off seasons in 2014 and 2015. The total cost of the renovations was estimated at $120 million with the city of Cleveland paying $30 million over 15 years and the Browns covering the rest of the cost. The current lease is up in 2028. Through the 2023 season, Cleveland Browns Stadium is the only NFL venue that has yet to host an NFL postseason game of any kind.

I certainly get all of that. And you would think the powers that be would take note of how it impacted the city when they lost the Browns back in the 90's. One would think they would have figured out that it's not a good idea to play a game of chicken with a multi billionaire. Modell wasn't even a multi billionaire which is why he needed a bribe from the city of Baltimore to leave. Haslam doesn't. I think maybe citizens of Cleveland should unite and let their politicians know that if they sit on their hands and allow the Browns to leave the city they won't be able to elected as dog catcher. That seems tto be the only message politicians care about anymore.

I agree they want a complex. That is why I think the odds are good they move out to Brookpark. They also want a dome. I think if they really want both, downtown is dead. If it boils down to one or the other, I think they want a dome.

Something I have been wondering for a while is could the city annex the said area in Brookpark in to the city? It's not an unincorporated area, so Brookpark would fight that, but maybe it wouldn't be necessary to fight over it. It could turn in to the city saying come to some agreement, or the stadium will be built downtown. Some sort of tax agreement could be had, and Brookpark would surely gain with the stadium at their doorstep.

It's a stretch, but not an impossible one.

I've found out that in these times even things I would have thought to be far fetched and impossible are entirely possible. So I would consider this a possibility as well.

I get it too... but I also think if I looked it up, the Browns would have more losses in that stadium than any other team... I'm ready to make some new memories... I vote we build new in Brookpark

j/c

To give you an idea of just how cash flush the Haslam's are, Berkshire Hathaway bought Pilot Flying J from them for approximately $13.6 billion. The payment for the final 20% which was paid just last month was $2.6 billion. This of course doesn't tell us anything about their plans moving forward on a new stadium. But what it does tell us is they have the funds to do whatever the hell they want to do.

Berkshire Paid $2.6 Billion for Haslam Family's Remaining 20% Pilot Stake

https://money.usnews.com/investing/...-haslam-familys-remaining-20-pilot-stake

So, we have one of the oldest stadiums in the league that won't be replaced or haven't had significant renovations of 250m or more. Not a good look for Cleveland.


Others are
Chiefs - Arrowhead Stadium 1972 - In the process of negotiating a new stadium or major renovation (struggling to get a deal done)
Washington - FedEx Field 1997 - 2023 stadium upgrade at 40M (already planning on building a dome by 2031 and more upgrades coming for up to 230 mill)
Buccaneers - Raymond James Stadium 1998 -160M in stadium renovations made in 2016-2018

Everyone knows that the Haslams cannot move the team from Greater Cleveland... It was written into the contract along with not adding a logo to the primary helmet.

I think the city council is looking at this situation and understands that the Browns only play 10-14 games a year downtown with a couple of events sprinkled in between.
I bet they are wondering if it is worth investing 1 bill for 20-30 years (at 1 billion, it will cost the city about 2.7 to 3 million per game over 30 years).

I do believe a dome would open opportunities to generate more revenue for the city and add 20-30 more events a year which, would reduce the cost significantly while injecting more $ into the businesses in the city.

Now, if the Browns do move to Brookpark... I bet a lot of people will still stay downtown because they can ride the Rapid to the airport and would probably add several stops to the stadium.

If a new stadium agreement isn't reached by the end of the current stadium lease, how can a city force a team to no longer function? I do know there's what's called "The Art Modell law" that prevents Haslam moving the team out of the state, but I haven't heard of anything that prevents him from moving the team out of downtown. I find it to be quite odd to say the least that any city can force an owner to sign a continuation of as lease after it expires and hold him hostage in a position where he can no longer operate his business. I don't believe that such a situation actually exists.

I think i understand the disconnect here. You don't consider a community only 14 minutes from Cleveland as a part of " the greater Cleveland area". I think you may be mistaken about that. The greater Cleveland area isn't restricted to the city of Cleveland.

I found what constitutes " Greater Cleveland "....

The Cleveland metropolitan area, or Greater Cleveland as it is more commonly known, is the metropolitan area surrounding the city of Cleveland in Northeast Ohio, United States. According to the 2020 United States Census results, the five-county Cleveland–Elyria Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) consists of Cuyahoga County, Geauga County, Lake County, Lorain County, and Medina County, and has a population of 2,088,251, making Greater Cleveland the 34th most populous metropolitan area in the United States, and the second largest metropolitan area in Ohio. The city of Cleveland is also part of the larger Cleveland–Akron–Canton Combined Statistical Area with a population of over 3.6 million people, the most populous metropolitan area in Ohio and the 17th most populous in the entire United States.

https://kids.kiddle.co/Greater_Cleveland

I think it reads, Greater Cleveland, not Cleveland proper. I think that range extends even out of Cuyahoga County. I don't know if there is any language in the agreement, but I think if we wanted to move to a site down towards Akron or Lorain County and it could still be considered Greater Cleveland.

I don't think we would do anything that drastic, but Brookpark would certainly fall within the realm of being Greater Cleveland.

Also, it will never get to the point of the lease expiring and us not having a place to play. We currently have the land. The city needs to figure this out by next fall or Haslam Sports group is going to flip the switch.

As for the land size, nothing says the Browns are going to leave Berea. From the current training complex, you can run out Eastland Road and be at the stadium site in maybe 5 minutes. I do it all the time. I stay in Middleburgh Heights most of the time when I go up to games. I run that route out to the Brookpark train station to get downtown. $5 for a day pass gets me parking and transport downtown and back.. It sure beats driving downtown and then have to pay $60 to park the car.

I wonder if this will have any influence on the Browns' situation.....

I wonder if that is going to be on the existing site? The advantage they have is the Bears could play at Northwesterns stadium. I think it hold 45-50000 fans.

Cleveland doesn't have anything like that. Even Akron is pretty dinky. It holds maybe 25,000 people. The Browns probably have more than that many season ticket holders Probably more like 40,000.

Are they going to demolish Soldier Field? I thought the plan was to build something close, but not on top. I think SF is the oldest stadium in the NFL.

I guess it was a landmark before it was remodeled in 2004. In either event, if they can tear down Old Yankee Stadium, they can tear down anything.

I guess Lambeau would become the "new" oldest stadium in the NFL if SF were to be demolished.

Soooo.... this is happening?

This tweet kinda makes it seem like we've flipped a switch and are serious. Did I miss something?

Not at all, Haslem just playing both ends against the middle right now, as he should.


Cleveland Browns huddle with state lawmakers to show off Brook Park stadium plans
Though the team is still negotiating with the City of Cleveland about renovating the lakefront Browns Stadium, it pitched lawmakers on a domed stadium and entertainment development near the airport.

by Nick Castele and Mark Naymik
April 29, 2024

The Cleveland Browns took another step last week toward winning support for an alternative to renovating the team’s current lakefront home.

Representatives of the Cleveland Browns last Wednesday showed state lawmakers the team’s proposal for a new multipurpose stadium in Brook Park near Cleveland Hopkins International Airport. The plans included a major entertainment and redevelopment of the area, according to people familiar with the proposal.

The team sat down with a bipartisan gaggle of lawmakers, which was organized by state Reps. Bride Rose Sweeney and Tom Patton.

It’s not hard to imagine why the Browns would want Columbus on their side. The team, which is owned by Dee and Jimmy Haslam, will need help from the state – plus others – to build a domed stadium costing multiple billions of dollars.

Sweeney told Signal Cleveland she had to leave the meeting before the conversation turned to the numbers. But it was “clear Brook Park would be substantial,” she said – meaning substantially expensive.

Cleveland may not be out of the game just yet. Earlier this month, Sweeney and other lawmakers got the lowdown on Mayor Justin Bibb’s lakefront offer to the Browns. Sweeney said City Hall had what it believed was a competitive proposal that still protected Cleveland’s budget.

So what do the Brook Park plans look like? The public may find out soon. The team is expected to start circulating the plans more widely in the near future, sources told Signal Cleveland. Drawings shown to lawmakers depicted a multipurpose stadium that appeared built deep into the ground and with room for development around it, people knowledgeable about the pitch said.

The project was sold as an unprecedented economic development effort that includes a domed stadium and entertainment and lifestyle district that would be mostly privately funded – but would likely cost taxpayers significantly, too. The public portion of the stadium was pitched as drawing on revenue generated by the project. (The renovation of Rocket Mortgage FieldHouse, for instance, relied in part on admission and sales tax from the arena.)

Sweeney indicated that she is reserving judgment on the plans for now. A new Browns deal will cost a lot of taxpayer money, and those expenses need to be justified, she said.

“Sometimes that gets lost in the discussion,” she said.

For one example of stadium sticker prices these days, look to Chicago. The Bears recently unveiled plans for a multipurpose stadium replacing their longtime Soldier Field home. The stadium is expected to cost $3.2 billion, plus another $1.5 billion in infrastructure. The Bears ownership said it will contribute $2 billion toward the project.

https://signalcleveland.org/clevela...rs-to-show-off-brook-park-stadium-plans/

I think in the end this will boil down to building a dome stadium. I've heard it stated many times that the ground at the current stadium site will not support the weight of a dome stadium though I can't find any factual articles which supports that. If true I don't think the Halsam's will find it wise to continue forward with a stadium that does not have a dome. Maybe the city could come up with a sweet enough deal to keep the stadium downtown but IMO it would have to be one helluva sweetheart deal.

In the end, Cleveland will continue her 120 year tradition of talking about fixing the problem and not doing anything. Jimmy won't stand for it, and I don't blame him. He's offered to help in every way, they agreed to a timetable and have failed at every juncture. It's not all about the dome. The dome is simply the upside of washing his hands of the baboonery that is Cleveland politics.


Looking at Cleveland's 17th plan to develop the lakefront
By Nora McKeown Cleveland
PUBLISHED 11:00 AM ET Nov. 16, 2023
CLEVELAND — For the 17th time, the city of Cleveland has unveiled plans to develop the lakefront by the Browns stadium.

What You Need To Know
Cleveland has unveiled plans to develop the lakefront by Browns stadium

Since 1903, the city has put forward 17 plans with various methods of reaching the water

This plan would rely on a land bridge to connect Mall C to the waterfront, where residents could enjoy a sandy beach area and a park, restaurants, sports courts, exercise paths and more
The city doesn't yet have a price estimate for the project
Many are skeptical it will be seen through, as past attempts weren’t completed.

Nevertheless, leaders working on this plan remain optimistic this time will be different.

As the city’s planning director, Joyce Huang has played a large role in creating the plan to develop Cleveland’s North Coast Harbor, which she said has been a long time coming.

“We officially started planning it since 1903,” Huang said. “So, it’s been over a hundred years, but we really feel like this time is different.”

Since 1903, the city has put forward 17 plans with various methods of reaching the water.

In October, they unveiled the latest one, which they said is 60% complete, as they continue seeking community feedback.

“The master plan is really looking at what we’ll do on the lakefront once our connection is made,” Huang said.

The connection she’s referring to is the North Coast Connector plan to build a land bridge connecting downtown to the waterfront.

The concept has been in recent plans, getting mixed reviews from residents, some of whom believe it will be too costly.

Currently, a highway divides the lakefront area from downtown, limiting people’s ability to access the water.

“On top of Mall C up there, you’d just be looking across, but not able to actually walk or bike or roll across,” Huang said. “So, our goal is that we’d connect this section all the way over here so we can actually access the lakefront.”

Huang said the city is working to tie in plans for renovations at the Rock Hall and Browns stadium as well.

“We anticipate that all these different projects are going to come together and make one really great lakefront experience,” she said.

But to have that experience, residents need access to the water, and as of now, there’s no real place to do that in the area.

A 20-acre, city-owned parking lot, about the size of Edgewater Beach, sits right on the water, largely unused.

Huang said her role has been to listen to the community about how to best utilize that space.

“Our goal is to really see this become more active on a day-to-day basis,” she said. “So, we want to see people here every day of the year, whether it’s summer or winter time.”

Their plan involves creating a sandy beach, walking paths, sports courts, a splash pad, restaurants and more.

One element Huang is especially excited about is branding the area as “Cleveland’s Front Porch.”

“So, we’re going to develop 10 to 20 front porches that are almost going to be like little cabanas where you and your family can hang out and be a part of what’s happening all around you, but at the same time, have a little bit more of your space," she said. "We feel like that’s definitely a flavor of Cleveland.”

Huang said the city doesn’t have an estimate for the cost of the projects yet.

However, she said they’ve already been working to connect with state representatives for support on the project and have plans to apply for federal grants as well.

“We’re also prepared to make sure we can match that locally, so we’re coming up with some strategies on how to pay for the infrastructure as well as the overall park estimate,” she said.

Despite some skepticism from residents, Huang is confident the plan will be seen through, something she’s looking forward to as a resident as well as a city planner.

“I’m personally looking forward to when it’s all completed because I know my family will be here,” she said.

Huang said she’s hopeful the project will be completed in 10 years.

https://spectrumnews1.com/oh/columbus/news/2023/11/10/cleveland-lakefront-proposal

They have been serious from the start. Haslam isn't going to wait for the city while they dork around. Haslam wants a dome and entertainment area. The area needs that. Investing a $billion in to the old stadium is stupid. You're still going to have an old outdoor venue that can't be utilized for half the year.

Lots of Cleveland sports people are beginning to share this rendering. Not sure how legit it is.

That looks sweet. Crocker Park with a domed stadium. People will go to that.

I don't have any population figures and don't intend to look them up, but I'd be willing to say the largest concentration of people live on the west side of Cleveland and the west and south suburbs. At least people who have some money to spend.

This right here. ^^^^^^

I'm rooting for the dome in Brookpark. Closer to Berea and Fairview Hospital, both of which I spent a lot of time at.

I am not sure the land has been purchased. Haslam has an option on the land. That is much like putting up earnest money when trying to buy a home. I don't know the terms of the option, but Haslam has put some sum of money down to keep the property from being sold to anyone else. If Haslam doesn't come through to purchase the land in a set time, the seller keeps the money.

Peen you are correct. Haslam has a land purchase agreement in place with an option to buy.