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https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/28/us/supreme-court-trump-immunity-trial.html

That's the dumbest thing I've heard all year.

If they find that Trump is immune, then maybe Dark Brandon should order Seal Team 6 to kill Trump... What would they think of that?


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Yeah, they should probably just have him killed. Pay-per-view? I know at least one of our members endorses this.


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Let's put trump above the law. That will be good for all.

Then he stays in office till he dies because leaving would put him in prison.

trump is a criminal and has been on for a long time. Money and power has kept him on the streets. Anyone else would be sitting in jail awaiting trial on the document case.

His judge is providing a shield.

The people of this country deserve to have a trail before the election. Obviously trump wants immunity because any criminal would.

The best thing for this country would be trump is put on trial. And then Biden steps down. Let Haley and Harris run for office.

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Originally Posted by FATE
Yeah, they should probably just have him killed. Pay-per-view? I know at least one of our members endorses this.

Uh, Sarcasim FUN.

Are you in any way shape or form thinking that Trump is right and has any kind of immunity?


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What we are seeing here is the Supreme Court of the Republican Party in action.


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I can't read the NYT, but just because they agree to hear the case, doesn't mean that they're going to side with him.


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It is a disgrace that immunity for criminal acts is even a question.

The Supreme Court should have ruled immediately given the completeness of the ruling of the lower court.

A country either has Law and Order or it does not. There is no half way. No person under any circumstance is above the Law. How can that even be a consideration under a democracy?

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I think most agree that Presidents should have immunity. The question is to what level.

Members of Congress have expressed immunity. I am not sure why a President shouldn't. President Biden shouldn't be open for legal action for his actions, or lack of actions at the border once he leaves office.

This is the possible opening of a Pandoras box where in the future every President is going to face some sort of action once they leave office.


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Pandora's box?

Civil immunity against getting sued is one thing. Felony criminal immunity is another.

You cannot be serious. No person is above the Law. trump has been indicted for criminal actions. He attempted to remain in power after he lost a legitimate election that was proven in over 50 courts.

The indictments are felonies. He should be tried immediately. Nothing is more of a priority for the Supreme Court than to determine his guilt or innocence before the election.

The voters should know if he is a felon or not before they vote.

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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
I think most agree that Presidents should have immunity. The question is to what level.

Members of Congress have expressed immunity. I am not sure why a President shouldn't. President Biden shouldn't be open for legal action for his actions, or lack of actions at the border once he leaves office.

This is the possible opening of a Pandoras box where in the future every President is going to face some sort of action once they leave office.

Careful with the common sense there, that doesn't fit the outrage culture.


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Originally Posted by bonefish
Let's put trump above the law. That will be good for all.

Then he stays in office till he dies because leaving would put him in prison.

trump is a criminal and has been on for a long time. Money and power has kept him on the streets. Anyone else would be sitting in jail awaiting trial on the document case.

His judge is providing a shield.

The people of this country deserve to have a trail before the election. Obviously trump wants immunity because any criminal would.

The best thing for this country would be trump is put on trial. And then Biden steps down. Let Haley and Harris run for office.

You said he should be executed -- on TV.

Now I'm putting him "above the law" by questioning the fact that another member here actually said he should be executed?

You guys are literally off your rocker.


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Are you saying it makes common sense that anyone is above the Law?

That somehow a president who commits a felony should not be held accountable?

There is nothing common about that making sense.

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No, not at all. This stems from the classified docs, right? Put them all in jail. Drag Obama out of his home and pick up Joe from the nursing home on the way, hell, he had a dog pissing on them in the corner of his garage. Who else?

Quote
"Without immunity from criminal prosecution, the presidency as we know it will cease to exist," lawyers D. John Sauer and John Lauro wrote. They warned that without criminal immunity for official acts taken by a president, prosecutions would become more common, "ushering in destructive cycles of recrimination."

"The threat of future criminal prosecution by a politically opposed administration will overshadow every future president's official acts — especially the most politically controversial decisions," Lauro and Sauer wrote. "The president's political opponents will seek to influence and control his or her decisions via effective extortion or blackmail with the threat, explicit or implicit, of indictment by a future, hostile Administration, for acts that do not warrant any such prosecution."

Does that make any sense to you? Or just a hard NO because it's Trump we're talking about? How 'bout a murder charge for Obama, since he ordered a drone strike that targeted and killed an American?

Please be aware, since you and yours seem to like to do this (you did it in your first response to me), I didn't just say Trump should be immune, I'm saying that there's nothing wrong with a court discussing it.


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Originally Posted by Damanshot
Originally Posted by FATE
Yeah, they should probably just have him killed. Pay-per-view? I know at least one of our members endorses this.

Uh, Sarcasim FUN.

Are you in any way shape or form thinking that Trump is right and has any kind of immunity?

I'm saying if the choice is to have him executed on TV ~or~ explore immunity, we should probably choose the latter.

But then again, I'm a madman, so there's that. thumbsup


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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
I think most agree that Presidents should have immunity. The question is to what level.

Members of Congress have expressed immunity. I am not sure why a President shouldn't. President Biden shouldn't be open for legal action for his actions, or lack of actions at the border once he leaves office.

This is the possible opening of a Pandoras box where in the future every President is going to face some sort of action once they leave office.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think your second sentence above is exactly what the courts (Circuit and now SCOTUS) are attempting to answer.

On one hand, certainly presidents should have some level of immunity (certainly on the civil side) for their actions as head of state that are within the ordinary course and scope of his duties as executive. On the other hand, the basic notion of our Republic is that we also don't have kings.

Here are some of the excerpts from the DC Circuit ruling:

Former President Trump’s claimed immunity would have
us extend the framework for Presidential civil immunity to
criminal cases and decide for the first time that a former
President is categorically immune from federal criminal
prosecution for any act conceivably within the outer perimeter
of his executive responsibility. He advances three grounds for
establishing this expansive immunity for former Presidents:
(1) Article III courts lack the power to review the President’s
official acts under the separation of powers doctrine; (2)
functional policy considerations rooted in the separation of
powers require immunity to avoid intruding on Executive
Branch functions; and (3) the Impeachment Judgment Clause
does not permit the criminal prosecution of a former President
in the absence of the Congress impeaching and convicting him.


Our conclusion that the separation of powers doctrine does
not immunize former Presidents from federal criminal liability
is reinforced by the analogous immunity doctrines for
legislators and judges. Legislators and judges are absolutely
immune from civil suits for any official conduct, and legislators
have an explicit constitutional immunity from criminal
prosecution arising from the Speech or Debate Clause.
Nevertheless, legislators and judges can be criminally
prosecuted under generally applicable laws for their official
acts consistent with the separation of powers doctrine.

We conclude
that the interest in criminal accountability, held by both the
public and the Executive Branch, outweighs the potential risks
of chilling Presidential action and permitting vexatious
litigation. Second, we examine the additional interests raised
by the nature of the charges in the Indictment: The Executive
Branch’s interest in upholding Presidential elections and
vesting power in a new President under the Constitution and
the voters’ interest in democratically selecting their President.
We find these interests compel the conclusion that former
President Trump is not immune from prosecution under the
Indictment.


More specifically to your point:

Former President Trump argues that criminal liability for
former Presidents risks chilling Presidential action while in
office and opening the floodgates to meritless and harassing
prosecution. These risks do not overcome “the public interest
in fair and accurate judicial proceedings,” which “is at its
height in the criminal setting.” Vance, 140 S. Ct. at 2424.

And the haymaker:

Moreover, past Presidents have understood themselves to
be subject to impeachment and criminal liability, at least under
certain circumstances, so the possibility of chilling executive
action is already in effect. Even former President Trump
concedes that criminal prosecution of a former President is
expressly authorized by the Impeachment Judgment Clause
after impeachment and conviction. E.g., Oral Arg. Tr. 13:25–
14:9. We presume that every President is aware of the
Impeachment Judgment Clause and knows that he is “liable
and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment,
according to Law,” at least after impeachment and conviction.
U.S. CONST. art. I, § 3, cl. 7.


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Another one, too. There are more, but I won't bore the forum with stuff that Peen and I may find interesting, given our backgrounds:

Instead of inhibiting the President’s lawful discretionary
action, the prospect of federal criminal liability might serve as
a structural benefit to deter possible abuses of power and
criminal behavior. “Where an official could be expected to
know that certain conduct would violate statutory or
constitutional rights, he should be made to hesitate . . . .”
Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800, 819 (1982). As the district
court observed: “Every President will face difficult decisions;
whether to intentionally commit a federal crime should not be
one of them.”


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One other thing to consider, too, and the DC Circuit mentioned this, is the precedent set by the Executive branch itself in its understanding of how immunity worked. The example that stands out there is Ford's pardoning of Nixon. It's election-related as well.


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Originally Posted by bonefish
The best thing for this country would be trump is put on trial. And then Biden steps down. Let Haley and Harris run for office.

You had me until the Haley and Harris part.

I'm not against them running, per se, but if their running is the best thing for this country.... I don't know.


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Originally Posted by dawglover05
Another one, too. There are more, but I won't bore the forum with stuff that Peen and I may find interesting, given our backgrounds:

Instead of inhibiting the President’s lawful discretionary
action, the prospect of federal criminal liability might serve as
a structural benefit to deter possible abuses of power and
criminal behavior. “Where an official could be expected to
know that certain conduct would violate statutory or
constitutional rights, he should be made to hesitate . . . .”
Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800, 819 (1982). As the district
court observed: “Every President will face difficult decisions;
whether to intentionally commit a federal crime should not be
one of them.”

This is where the conversation gets very interesting. This is where I start to lean toward no blanket immunity. Yes, every president will face difficult decisions, I'm not sure I would favor the next human switch in that circuitry to be "well, I've got nothing to lose". I know that's not worded very well, but I think you get my meaning.


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LOL, I certainly get your point. I think the operative term might be "better" in this scenario.

The problem with the R's is that they have firmly tied their wagon to the Trump horse. Even if convicted, he won't quit. If they get crushed in the '24 election, there will have to be some type of reckoning, because that'll be the fourth cycle in a row that the R's gave up ground (or largely underperformed in the case of the House). Even then, Trump won't go quietly. Might have a lot of infighting on that side of the aisle. He would be 82 if he wanted to run in the next Presidential election, and by then, I would hope all of his indictments are sorted out. He has already shown cognitive decline, which is largely the knock on Biden (deservedly so in many cases). I can't imagine him at 82 with his already colorful history, combined with mental decline. Yeesh. There would have to be a change. I don't really see a viable alternative, though. It's mostly Trump and a lot of vassals. Maybe Haley would have the chance to come back in '28.

On the D side, they don't have a lot of great choices either. It is concerning how Harris really hasn't done much of anything at all. She carries such an underwhelming nature about her. The last several VPs all (at least in my impression) all seemed to be more "present" than her. The only viable candidate on that front is Gavin Newsome, at least for now. The D's went through a lot of restructuring following the Hillary disaster, and it was a huge disaster. So much that they felt the need to put Biden back into the foray at his age, and it wasn't a landslide victory.

We need a political renaissance. Unfortunately, all signs point toward business as usual, though, in one way or another.


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Originally Posted by FATE
Originally Posted by dawglover05
Another one, too. There are more, but I won't bore the forum with stuff that Peen and I may find interesting, given our backgrounds:

Instead of inhibiting the President’s lawful discretionary
action, the prospect of federal criminal liability might serve as
a structural benefit to deter possible abuses of power and
criminal behavior. “Where an official could be expected to
know that certain conduct would violate statutory or
constitutional rights, he should be made to hesitate . . . .”
Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800, 819 (1982). As the district
court observed: “Every President will face difficult decisions;
whether to intentionally commit a federal crime should not be
one of them.”

This is where the conversation gets very interesting. This is where I start to lean toward no blanket immunity. Yes, every president will face difficult decisions, I'm not sure I would favor the next human switch in that circuitry to be "well, I've got nothing to lose". I know that's not worded very well, but I think you get my meaning.

Yep, I agree. I know exactly what you mean. It's a real slippery slope, and if there is no deterrence, the proverbial license to kill could be quite problemmatic for whoever is in office (R or D).


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It may not be best for the country.

However, looking at what to do if both candidates were out of the picture. I do not know how it would be handled.

Haley is all that is left for GOP. Harris is the VP. If an election were held for a democrat in a primary ok. But how that would take place in time?

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I think the left is getting all worked up for no reason. It seems quite logical to me that in the end there needed to be a SCOTUS ruling on this. To settle this once and for all. The trick here is the limits of a presidents immunity. As I understand it, a president has immunity for actions that are part of his "presidential duties". Telling a Georgia election official you need to "find votes" is not a part of your presidential duties. Telling that same official that if he doesn't do so he will be committing a crime is not a part of your presidential duties. A plot to seat fake electors is not part of presidential duties. And while having classified documents doesn't show intent, refusing to comply with a subpoena does.

This false comparison some seem to be trying to make here is foolish at best and totally dishonest at worse.

As of now I see no ill intent by the SCOTUS taking on this case. Trump's lawyers up until this time have claimed a president should be given complete and total immunity for anything and everything he does while serving in office. I don't believe any court in the land would agree with that and hopefully they will let him know and make it clear moving forward the guidelines of what is and what is not a presidents duties. At the very least the things he did that do not fall under the guidelines of presidential duties and that he is accountable for those things. Trying to overturn an election and refusing to turn over top secret documents AFTER you have been given a subpoena to do so even after leaving office are certainly not a part of any presidents duties.


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The case was laid out to the SC. in great detail.

There is no higher priority than ruling on this. The indictments against trump are felonies.

No person is immune when it comes to breaking the Law. There is no ambiguity.

trump needs to be tried before the election. If he is convicted immunity should not be in play.

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And if he does win I'm certain there will have to be another SCOTUS ruling. "Can a president pardon himself?" Because we all know he would test the waters on that one.


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This is not difficult and should not be over complicated.

Common sense was mentioned. Please let's be real here. Partisan politics does not apply.

We are talking about breaking the law. trumps action before during and after Jan 6th are clear. He tried to stop the peaceful transfer of power for only one reason and that was to remain in power.

He brokered a plot of fake electors to steal the election from the voters of this country.

It cannot be more clear.

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I don't see how you think I didn't cover those things and agree with you. All I'm saying is the wording of presidential immunity is quite vague. You see, certain laws either weren't written or were written vaguely because nobody even considered that America would have a president who tested the boundaries and as in this case crossed those boundaries and limits.

It's created the situation we are in now. I've said this many times before in other situations and it applies here as well. The founding fathers were wise men. The only issue is that even wise men can't see 250 years into the future. They didn't and couldn't foresee many things that is facing our society now. It was beyond imaginable at that point in history.


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Trump thanks Supreme Court for hearing immunity case

Former President Trump thanked the Supreme Court Wednesday for agreeing to weigh whether he can be criminally prosecuted for efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

“Legal Scholars are extremely thankful for the Supreme Court’s Decision today to take up Presidential Immunity. Without Presidential Immunity, a President will not be able to properly function, or make decisions, in the best interest of the United States of America,” Trump wrote on Truth Social.

“Presidents will always be concerned, and even paralyzed, by the prospect of wrongful prosecution and retaliation after they leave office. This could actually lead to the extortion and blackmail of a President,” he added.

The Supreme Court on Wednesday agreed to take up the case in an order that will keep Trump’s Jan. 6 criminal trial proceedings on hold. The order included an expedited schedule for the case, with the court setting up oral arguments during the week of April 22.

Trump had previously urged the Supreme Court to delay the federal election subversion criminal trial as he appealed a ruling that he does not have immunity from the charges. Special counsel Jack Smith had asked the Supreme Court to reject Trump’s request to delay the trial over his appeal.

Trump and his legal team have argued that the former president should have presidential immunity from four federal felony charges he is facing in Smith’s election interference case against him. Trump has pleaded not guilty.

Trump continued to echo those arguments in another post on Truth Social Wednesday.

“A President has to be free to determine what is right for our Country without undue pressure. If there is no Immunity, the Presidency, as we know it, will ‘no longer exist.’ Many actions for the benefit of our Country will not be taken,” Trump wrote.

“This is in no way what the Founders had in mind. Legal Experts and Scholars have stated that the President must have Full Presidential Immunity. A President must be free to make proper decisions. His mind must be clear, and he must not be guided by the fear of retribution!” he added.

https://thehill.com/regulation/cour...L91WdFngfqufDd8JeUvOMdK0Tf9Vp1v6FyA5DLIY

A not so subtle way to say a president should be above the law in no uncertain terms.


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The Insignificance of Trump’s “Immunity from Prosecution” Argument
Marty Lederman
Tuesday, February 27, 2024, 1:27 PM

If and when the Supreme Court decides to hear the case, the stakes will be far less momentous than many observers might assume, because the answer to the immunity question matters very little for Trump’s prosecution.

Donald Trump (Gage Skidmore, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Donald_Trump_(40525854191).jpg; CC BY-SA 2.0 DEED, https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/deed.en)
Marty Lederman
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Any day now, the Supreme Court will decide what to do with Donald Trump’s application for a stay of the lower court proceedings in the federal criminal case against him in the District of Columbia. Technically, Trump’s application asks the Court to stay the mandate the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit issued in connection with its opinion rejecting Trump’s argument that his criminal trial is barred by “presidential immunity.” If the Supreme Court applied its established doctrinal test, it would deny the stay because Trump can't possibly demonstrate “a fair prospect that a majority of the Court will vote to reverse the judgment below.” Indeed, I’d be surprised if even a single justice on the Court would vote to reverse, because the merits of the immunity argument are so weak, largely for the reasons thoroughly explained by D.C. Circuit Judges Henderson, Pan, and Childs in their per curiam opinion on February 6.

Whatever the Court does with the stay application, however, that isn’t the main event. Trump is asking for that stay, which would delay trial proceedings in the district court, pending his forthcoming petition for a writ of certiorari, which would tee up the merits of the immunity argument for the Supreme Court’s own consideration. Both parties have argued at one time or another that the question is one the Supreme Court should ultimately decide. Trump says so in his application for a stay. And although the Special Counsel’s response to Trump’s stay application argues that the Court should deny a stay if it would deny certiorari, the Special Counsel previously told the Court, in his petition for certiorari before judgment (which the Court denied on December 22), that the immunity question is “a quintessential example of ‘an important question of federal law that has not been, but should be, settled by this Court’” (quoting Supreme Court Rule 10(c)).

I’m a little dubious, quite honestly, that the question is “important” enough to warrant Supreme Court review, given how straightforward the answer to the question is and how little effect its answer would have on the proceedings against Trump (which I discuss below). A simple denial of certiorari—or, better still, treating the motion as a cert petition and then summarily affirming the court of appeals’ judgment, cf. Purcell v. Gonzalez (2006) (treating an application for injunction relief as a cert petition and summarily reversing)—would signal that the court of appeals got the question right and would avoid the need for the Supreme Court to add another high-profile Trump case to its calendar this term.

Nevertheless, because both parties have argued that the Supreme Court should itself answer the question, it’s more likely the Court will, at some point, grant a petition and set the question for briefing and argument. In his response to Trump’s application, the Special Counsel strongly suggests that the time to do so is now: “[I]f the Court is inclined to grant review,” he writes, “the government respectfully requests that it treat the application [for stay of the mandate] as a petition for a writ of certiorari and grant review … without delay.”

If and when the Court does decide to hear the case, the stakes will be far less momentous than many observers might assume. For one thing, the outcome is fairly certain: Trump’s arguments for immunity border on the frivolous, and it wouldn’t take much work for the Court to dispose of them in short order. As the Special Counsel notes, the court of appeals’ thorough and unanimous rejection of those arguments, together with Trump’s “failure to point to any Founding Era suggestion of such absolute immunity, any former President making such a claim, or even any scholarly commentary positing such immunity,” underscores just “how remote the possibility is that this Court will agree with his unprecedented legal position.”

Even if the merits weren’t so clear-cut, however, the Court’s adjudication of the immunity question would be fairly insignificant because the answer to the question matters very little for Trump’s prosecution. Trump has argued that if he’s right about “presidential immunity,” it would require the courts to dismiss the indictment in its entirety. That’s not so. Even if the Court were to rule in Trump’s favor (which, again, is highly unlikely), that ruling should affect only one small portion of the Special Counsel’s case against Trump in the District of Columbia. Nor is there a serious risk, contrary to what Jack Goldsmith recently argued here on Lawfare, that the D.C. Circuit’s decision will have a significant “collateral impact on the construction of criminal statutes to burden the Article II authorities of sitting presidents.”

* * *

Trump’s argument is audacious and unprecedented, but it’s not unbounded. For one thing, Trump doesn’t dispute that Congress can prohibit a President from engaging in the fraudulent and obstructionist conduct alleged in the indictment. His “immunity” argument is only that a former president can’t be criminally tried and sanctioned for certain such alleged violations of law if that person hasn’t previously been convicted by the Senate for the same conduct. And even as to that, Trump does not argue that he’s immune from being prosecuted for any and all crimes he might have committed while he was president. He merely argues, instead, that his purported criminal immunity tracks the scope of the civil damages immunity the Court recognized in Nixon v. Fitzgerald, which extends only to conduct a President takes in his or her official capacity. As the Court confirmed in Clinton v. Jones, the Fitzgerald decision “provides no support for an immunity for unofficial conduct,” nor has the Court ever “suggested that the President, or any other official, has an immunity that extends beyond the scope of any action taken in an official capacity.”

The line between official and personal capacity conduct that the Court drew in Nixon v. Fitzgerald and in Clinton v. Jones shouldn’t matter here, because the Court’s jurisprudence respecting presidential immunity extends only to civil damages liability for a president’s “official acts in the absence of explicit affirmative action by Congress,” Fitzgerald (emphasis added). (The Court hasn’t ever had occasion to decide whether Congress can, by statute, authorize civil actions against the President, and it should be careful not to predetermine or presume the answer to that question in this case.) That doctrine doesn’t carry over to the context of this case, which involves a criminal prosecution for offenses established by Congress that limit the scope of the president’s official actions. That’s why Trump will lose on the merits of his immunity argument if and when the Supreme Court adjudicates that question.

Nevertheless, even if Trump were to prevail on his immunity argument, it wouldn’t affect the forthcoming trial very much because, with only one relatively minor exception, there’s no serious argument that Trump was acting in his official capacity as President when he engaged in the conduct charged in the indictment.

For starters, all but one of the counts of the indictment allege that Trump conspired with others to violate the law through fraudulent conduct. And, with one discrete exception, Trump’s alleged agreements to commit such fraud were with persons outside the government—John Eastman, Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, Kenneth Chesebro, and (probably) Boris Epshteyn. The principal charge in Count One is that Trump conspired with those five private persons, as well as with Assistant Attorney General Jeffrey Clark (more on him below), to defraud the United States in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 371 “by using dishonesty, fraud, and deceit to impair, obstruct and defeat the lawful federal government function by which the results of the [2020] presidential election [were to be] collected, counted, and certified by the federal government.” Counts Two and Four allege that the same agreement also violated two other federal statutes: 18 U.S.C. § 1512(k), which prohibits conspiring to, inter alia, corruptly obstruct or impede “any official proceeding,” id. § 1512(c)(2), and 18 U.S.C. § 241, which prohibits conspiring to violate persons’ constitutional rights to vote and have their votes counted. (Count Three alleges that Trump himself actually “attempted to, and did,” corruptly obstruct and impede an “official proceeding,” namely, the January 6, 2021 certification of the electoral vote. That non-conspiracy count, too, predominantly alleges conduct that Trump undertook in his personal capacity, in coordination with other private parties.)

It's very hard to see how Trump’s agreements with the five private parties might have been undertaken in his official capacity as President of the United States. To be sure, a President can communicate with nongovernmental actors as part of his or her official duties, and urge them to take certain actions. But even if there are rare cases in which making secret agreements with such outside persons might be deemed official presidential conduct, under no possible understanding of a President’s proper role could entering into an agreement for the private conspirators and the President to defraud the United States (and to corruptly obstruct its proceedings) be deemed an exercise of official presidential duties.

Nor did Trump act in his official capacity when he engaged in the vast majority of what the indictment alleges to be the “acts to effect the object of the conspiracy,” that is, the overt acts. Again, with a single exception I’ll discuss below (regarding Trump’s efforts to misuse the Department of Justice), those alleged acts consisted primarily of making knowingly false communications with persons outside the executive branch in an effort to have them act to change the certification of the electoral vote in Trump’s favor. These communications were made by Trump and his private co-conspirators (predominantly Giuliani and Eastman) to four different audiences:

They allegedly tried to use knowingly false claims of election fraud to induce state legislators and election officials to change their states’ election results from Biden to Trump.
They allegedly organized “alternative” slates of electors in seven targeted states won by Biden (Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin) and induced them to purport to cast electoral votes for Trump and then transmit false certificates of such votes to the President of the Senate and to the Archivist.
They (especially Trump and Eastman) allegedly used knowingly false claims of election fraud and other means to try to convince or cajole Mike Pence, in his capacity as President of the Senate, to credit or otherwise use those false “alternative” electoral votes, and to take steps to prevent the Joint Session of Congress from counting the legitimate electoral votes for Biden.
and

They (that is, Trump, Eastman, and Giuliani) allegedly used false claims of election fraud to spur and direct the crowd gathered at the Ellipse on January 6 to march to the Capitol in order to obstruct the electoral vote certification, including by pressuring Pence to postpone the count.
(The indictment also alleges that on the evening of January 6, Giuliani called members of Congress to urge them, based on false claims of election fraud, to delay the electoral vote certification. It further alleges that Trump himself tried to reach two Senators, but apparently he was unsuccessful in doing so.)

When those actions are “viewed objectively and in context,” as they would have to be for purposes of the Nixon v. Fitzgerald presidential immunity inquiry (see Blassingame v. Trump (D.C. Cir. 2023)), there’s no plausible case for concluding that Trump was acting in his official capacity when he engaged in them.

For starters, it’s significant that all of the acts were “unrelated to any of [Trump’s] official duties as President of the United States.” Nor did Trump and his co-conspirators attempt to use any presidential (or other executive branch) authorities or resources to accomplish their objectives. Indeed, there’s no reason to believe Trump’s actions would have been any different if he had been a first-time candidate who hadn’t yet taken office as President. This is (mostly) not a case, in other words, like Richard Nixon’s attempted abuse of the powers of the FBI and CIA against his political rivals; like President Truman’s efforts to have the Commerce Department seize steel mills; or like Nixon’s actions to have the Air Force remove Ernest Fitzgerald from his position in Nixon v. Fitzgerald itself. In all three of those cases, the President’s actions might have been unlawful, but the President undertook them in his official capacity, in the exercise of his Article II authority to direct actions of executive agencies. By contrast, Trump and his private co-conspirators did not plan to use the tools or authorities of Trump’s office or the executive branch to accomplish the ends of the agreement—and they didn’t do so.

These characteristics of the alleged overt acts do not, in and of themselves, necessarily mean that Trump wasn’t acting in his official capacity. Nor was Trump necessarily acting in his private capacity just because he took some of the actions to influence how other governmental actors outside the executive branch—such as officials in Georgia and Mike Pence in his role as President of the Senate—would exercise their own functions. See Blassingame, 87 F.4th at 24-25. And the mere fact that Trump was motivated by a desire to be re-elected likewise is not determinative of the capacity question, because a President does many things in his or her official capacity in hopes that they will incidentally make re-election more likely, see id. at 22 (“the inquiry does not consist of ‘[t]rying to identify speech that would benefit a president politically’”). For example, a President can act in his or her official capacity by urging members of Congress to vote for a particular bill that the President recommended, or by urging the Vice President to break a Senate tie to confirm one of the President’s nominees, even if the President is subjectively motivated, at least in part, by electoral considerations.

Even so, the fact that Trump’s communications were unrelated to presidential duties and did not involve the use of any executive branch powers or resources makes it far more likely that Trump performed those acts in his personal capacity. And the evidence as a whole, viewed objectively, compels that conclusion, as the D.C. Circuit recently explained: “[W]hen a President’s actions viewed objectively and in context may reasonably be understood only as re-election campaign activity, a court not only may, but must deny immunity.” That’s this case.

Most importantly, the conspirators’ overt acts (including Trump’s) allegedly were designed specifically and directly to effect Trump’s designation as winner of the 2020 election, rather than to do something on behalf of the nation (e.g., recommend Fifteenth Amendment enforcement legislation or amendments to the Electoral Count Act) that would only incidentally influence the outcomes of future elections. As the D.C. Circuit held in Blassingame, “[w]hen a first-term President opts to seek a second term, his campaign to win re-election is not an official presidential act,” and “[t]he Office of the Presidency as an institution is agnostic about who will occupy it next.” Therefore, efforts specifically designed “to gain that office,” as these obviously were, are “not … official act[s] of the office.” To the contrary: “[A]n incumbent President’s interests in winning re-election have the same purely private character as those of his challengers—i.e., ‘substantial personal interests as a candidate’ to attain (or retain) the office.” If Joe Biden had performed precisely the same functions—had he entered into the same conspiracies with nongovernmental actors to perform the same overt acts for the same purposes, something he could have done despite not holding the office—he plainly wouldn’t be entitled to immunity from liability or from prosecution. Hence, neither is Donald Trump. (See id., 874 F.4th at 18-19, for more on why a “pro-incumbent imbalance” would be improper in such cases.)

It’s easiest to see this with respect to the conspirators’ efforts to organize fraudulent electoral slates and cause them to transmit false certificates to Congress. That obviously was not something done by anyone acting on behalf of the U.S. government. Indeed, it was done primarily by private attorneys and campaign staff.

Likewise with respect to the conspirators’ alleged efforts to have state legislators and officials change the outcomes of their states’ votes: Those efforts, too, were spearheaded by private parties (such as Giuliani and Eastman) who represented Trump in his personal capacity. And the conspirators didn’t devote themselves to an effort to stamp out all fraud in any way associated with the nationwide 2020 elections, or any other objective for the benefit of the nation as whole: As pages 9-21 of the indictment recount in detail, they focused instead exclusively on changing a particular number of votes, or electoral slates, in particular states, in a manner that would alter the outcome of one particular election—the presidential election—to Trump’s advantage. In Georgia, for instance, Trump signed a verification in a suit against the Governor in which he personally affirmed false election fraud allegations. And then he explained to Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger that he needed to “find” 11,780 votes. See also State v. Meadows, 88 F.4th 1331, 1337 (11th Cir. 2023) (recounting Raffensperger’s testimony that he “felt” the Trump shakedown phone call “was a campaign call” because the attorneys on the other end “were Trump campaign lawyers”); id. at 1349 (recountings Mark Meadows’ testimony that a meeting with Michigan state officials mostly involved discussion of the purported fraud in the 2020 election and was related to “President Trump[’s] ... personal interest in the outcome of the election in Michigan”).

Similarly, the conspirators’ exhortations to the crowd assembled at the Ellipse on January 6—for them to bring pressure to bear on Pence and members of Congress—also were clearly made on behalf of Trump in his personal capacity. That rally was, in effect, a continuation of Trump’s campaign activity. It had none of the trappings of an official White House or government event. Indeed, the principal speakers other than Trump were, again, Giuliani and Eastman—not government officials. And Trump’s own speech, like Giuliani's and Eastman's, was expressly and repeatedly framed in terms of the fate of Trump and his supporters in the 2020 election, and other expressly partisan concerns. See Blassingame, 87 F.4th at 22 (“That is not to say that the content of a speech will invariably be entirely off-limits. In certain circumstances, for instance, it could serve to confirm what an objective assessment of the context makes evident.”).[1]

Finally, there are the conspirators’ communications with Mike Pence. It would certainly be unusual, to say the least, for any executive branch officials to inveigh upon the Vice President about how to perform his role as President of the Senate when chairing the Joint Session of Congress for the counting of electoral votes; the executive branch simply doesn’t have any interest in how that count is made. That’s true in this case, too. The communications to Pence were designed specifically and expressly to serve Trump’s re-election efforts, rather than to advance any national interest. See generally paragraphs 89-97 of the indictment; see also paragraph 122 (alleging that Eastman’s email to Pence’s counsel at 11:44 p.m. on January 6 expressly advocated that Pence consider committing a “relatively minor violation” of the Electoral Count Act). And again, Eastman’s prominent role in the meetings with Pence and his staff, and the alleged deliberate exclusion of representatives of the White House counsel’s office in at least some such meetings, are telling indicia of private-capacity conduct, as are Trump’s own remarks in a decidedly partisan, election-outcome-related vein (e.g., “We won every state.”).

On top of all that, Trump himself has effectively acknowledged that he undertook “his post-election efforts to alter the declared results in his favor …in his personal capacity as presidential candidate, not in his official capacity as sitting President.” “That is evident,” the Blassingame court wrote, in Trump’s “effort to intervene in the Supreme Court’s consideration of a post-election lawsuit [Texas v. Pennsylvania, No. 22O155 (2020)] challenging the administration of the election in various battleground states. He expressly filed his motion in the Supreme Court ‘in his personal capacity as candidate for re-election to the office of President’ rather than in his official capacity as sitting President. And he grounded his claimed right to intervene in the case in his ‘unique and substantial personal interests as a candidate for re-election to the Office of President’ rather than in any official interest in exercising the office’s duties.”

So, too, with respect to the conduct alleged in the D.D.C. indictment, with respect to which Trump has made a concession analogous to the one discussed in Blassingame. Trump filed a separate motion in the district court (which Judge Chutkan denied) in which he argued that his conduct alleged in the indictment may not be made the basis for criminal charges because it consisted of speech protected by the First Amendment. The First Amendment, however, does not protect a government official’s speech in his or her official capacity, see Garcetti v. Ceballos, 547 U.S. at 421-22—it only protects speech in the individual’s private capacity. Cf. CBS v. Democratic Nat’l Comm., 412 U.S. at 139 (Stewart, J. concurring) (“The First Amendment protects the press from governmental interference, it confers no analogous protection on the Government.”). Therefore, Trump has already effectively acknowledged, in this very case, that he undertook the alleged conduct in his personal capacity.

* * *

Trump’s immunity argument would, however, implicate one portion of the indictment, assuming the Nixon v. Fitzgerald official/personal capacity distinction applied. Paragraphs 10(c) and 70-85 allege that Trump conspired with an Assistant Attorney General—obviously Jeffrey Clark, though the indictment doesn’t name him:

to use the power and authority of the Justice Department to conduct sham election crime investigations and to send a letter to the targeted states that falsely claimed that the Justice Department had identified significant concerns that may have impacted the election outcome; that sought to advance the Defendant’s fraudulent elector plan by using the Justice Department’s authority to falsely present the fraudulent electors as a valid alternative to the legitimate electors; and that urged, on behalf of the Justice Department, the targeted states’ legislatures to convene to create the opportunity to choose the fraudulent electors over the legitimate electors. (Emphasis added.)
The grand jury has included this “official conduct” Trump-Clark agreement as one aspect of all three conspiracy charges, in Counts One, Two, and Four. The indictment also alleges that Trump’s efforts in late December 2020 “to use the Justice Department to make knowingly false claims of election fraud to officials in the targeted states through a formal letter under the Acting Attorney General’s signature, thus giving the Defendant’s lies the backing of the federal government and attempting to improperly influence the targeted states to replace legitimate Biden electors with the Defendant’s,” were a relatively small part of his attempt to obstruct the proceeding in the joint session of Congress at which the electoral votes were counted, which forms part of the substantive § 1512(c)(2) charge in Count Three.

Like the Nixon and Truman examples I mentioned above, Trump’s alleged arrangement with Clark “to use the power and authority of the Justice Department” undoubtedly describes conduct undertaken in Trump’s official capacity as President. Therefore if Trump’s immunity argument were valid, the government couldn’t convict him for these violations of criminal law, and perhaps the government would also be barred from even putting Trump on trial with respect to that episode (although that’s not clearly established in a case, such as this one, in which the former President would be subject to a trial, in any event, for an alleged broader conspiracy of which the official conduct was just one part).

Nevertheless, the important point to emphasize here is that the Trump-Clark endeavor is relatively small potatoes in the context of the much broader conspiracies alleged in the indictment. Therefore, if the Supreme Court chooses to decide the immunity question before trial, both the Justices and the public ought to keep in mind that the answer to that question will affect only a small, discrete part of the indictment.

* * *

A couple of weeks ago, Jack Goldsmith wrote on Lawfare that although he agrees with the court of appeals that Trump isn’t immune from prosecution for his alleged criminal conduct, the Supreme Court nevertheless should review the D.C. Circuit decision not only for the reason offered by the parties, but also because the D.C. Circuit’s per curiam opinion “contains loose reasoning that will have a potentially large collateral impact on the construction of criminal statutes to burden the Article II authorities of sitting presidents.”

I don’t think that’s right.

As I explained above, Trump’s immunity argument is not that Congress can’t prohibit the President from engaging in the types of fraud and obstruction of government proceedings that the indictment alleges—even in his official capacity. His argument is, instead, that a President who violates those statutes can’t be held criminally culpable. In this respect, the immunity argument here is akin to other, more familiar immunity claims, including the one at issue in Nixon v. Fitzgerald, as well as claims of “qualified immunity” of law enforcement officers. In each of those contexts, the starting assumption is that the person in question acted unlawfully and that the statute prohibiting the conduct is constitutional—the only question at issue is whether certain remedies or sanctions for the violation are off-limits. So, too, here.

There’s no constitutional concern in applying the statutory prohibitions at issue here to a President—even to official presidential conduct. (Nor has Jack suggested otherwise.) Take, for example, the sole part of the indictment that describes such official conduct: Trump’s alleged efforts to have the Department of Justice falsely inform Georgia officials that there was evidence of election fraud in order to induce those officials to switch Georgia’s electoral votes from Biden to Trump. Such efforts wouldn’t be within the president’s lawful authority to begin with—just as with Nixon’s efforts to misuse the CIA to harm his political rivals, it would be a violation of his “take Care” duty. And, in any event, there’s no question that Congress may prohibit the President from misusing his office in that way, either with a statute directed specifically to the President or one that’s generally applicable: The Constitution does not prevent Congress from prohibiting the President from conspiring to defraud the United States (18 U.S.C. § 371), from conspiring to corruptly obstruct or impede “any official proceeding” (§§ 1512(c)(2), 1512(k)), or from conspiring to violate individuals’ rights to vote and have their votes counted (18 U.S.C. § 241), even in a particular case where the President abuses his Article II authorities (e.g., his power to superintended the Department of Justice) to accomplish those unlawful objectives of the conspiracy. (For a fuller explanation of this point as applied to § 1512, see pages 175-178 of Volume II of the Mueller report.)

Jack assumes that Trump “can and will argue at trial that at least some of the statutes he allegedly violated do not apply to him because they ‘possibly conflict’ with the president’s constitutional prerogatives.” I suppose it’s possible Trump might make such arguments later—and, if he does, Judge Chutkan could address those arguments separate and apart from the issue of presidential immunity from criminal culpability. It’s telling, however, that Trump hasn’t made those arguments yet, even though he’s already moved to dismiss the charges on numerous statutory and constitutional grounds. Presumably Trump hasn’t argued that the fraud and obstruction statutes don’t apply to the President because such an argument would be even more untenable than his immunity argument.

This case therefore is fundamentally different from the questions addressed in the Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) opinions Jack discusses, all of which involved statutes that would raise serious constitutional questions if they were applied to limit what would otherwise be the President’s otherwise lawful exercise of his or her constitutional authorities.[2]

Jack’s concern about the D.C. Circuit opinion is based primarily on a single infelicitously phrased sentence. In one section of its opinion, the court of appeals addressed and rejected Trump’s audacious argument that Marbury v. Madison established a principle that courts can never “examine” the legality of a President’s official acts, even after the President leaves office. There are many reasons why that argument is wrong. Most fundamentally, however, it’s based upon a misreading of what Chief Justice John Marshall was discussing in the relevant passage of Marbury. As the court of appeals noted, Marshall was merely expressing the simple and uncontroversial point that where the law affords an executive official (including the President) unbounded discretion to act, there’s no basis for a court to enjoin such conduct. (Today, in an Administrative Procedure Act challenge, we’d say that such a case is nonjusticiable because the action is “committed to agency discretion by law” and thus there’s “no law to apply.”) In this case, by contrast, the President did not have unbounded discretion to defraud the United States or to corruptly interfere with the January 6 count of electoral votes. As the court of appeals noted, the President’s discretion to do so was properly constrained by law, including by the criminal statutes that Trump is alleged to have violated.

In the course of making that argument, the D.C. Circuit panel wrote that “former President Trump’s actions allegedly violated generally applicable criminal laws, meaning those acts were not properly within the scope of his lawful discretion” (emphasis added). Jack fears that this statement could be understood to suggest that the enactment of a “generally applicable” criminal statute itself automatically limits the President’s discretion to perform his or her Article II duties, even if such a limitation would be unconstitutional or would raise such significant constitutional concerns that it would be fair to construe the statute not to apply to the President. Such reasoning, he writes, “is undisciplined and sweeps broadly”—so much so that its “implications will unduly constrain and chill presidents in office because they will be exposed to potentially much broader (and uncertain) criminal exposure in carrying out everyday Article II acts.”

I don’t think there’s any chance, however, that a current or future President will read the D.C. Circuit’s opinion to suggest anything of the sort. The court obviously did not mean to suggest, let alone to hold, that as long as Congress chooses to impose criminal sanctions on some “generally applicable” activity, the statute thereby necessarily applies to the President and automatically is constitutional as applied to the President. If that were a conceivable reading of the court’s statement, then surely the Justice Department wouldn’t have cited it favorably in its filing in the Supreme Court responding to Trump’s stay application—but it did (see footnote 14). The better reading of the court’s statement is simply that when generally applicable criminal statutes do apply to the President—as it is uncontested that the statutes here do, and when such statutes are constitutional as applied—as these are—then such laws limit the President’s discretion to act, even in his or her official capacity, and courts (or juries) accordingly can “examine” the legality of the President’s conduct. Understood in that way, the court of appeals’ statement raises no constitutional issues of concern.

* * *

As I noted at the top of this article, it would be perfectly appropriate for the Supreme Court to resolve Trump’s immunity claim by treating his application as a petition for certiorari and either denying it or summarily affirming the court of appeals. If, however, the Court decides to resolve the question after full briefing and argument, the Justices and the public should keep in mind that the stakes of the question are extremely narrow when it comes to Trump’s criminal case.





[1] For example (and this is only a small sample):

All of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by emboldened radical-left Democrats, which is what they're doing.

Today I will lay out just some of the evidence proving that we won this election and we won it by a landslide.

Rudy, you did a great job. He’s got guts, unlike a lot of people in the Republican Party.

If Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election.

All Vice President Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify and we become president and you are the happiest people.

Many of the Republicans, I helped them get in, I helped them get elected. I helped Mitch [McConnell] get elected. I helped.

And you have to get your people to fight. And if they don’t fight, we have to primary the hell out of the ones that don’t fight. You primary them. We’re going to. We’re going to let you know who they are.

Republicans are constantly fighting like a boxer with his hands tied behind his back. … We're going to have to fight much harder.

Look at the big leads we had, right. Even though the press said we would lose Wisconsin by 17 points. Even though the press said, Ohio’s going to be close, we set a record; Florida’s going to be close, we set a record; Texas is going to be close, Texas is going to be close, we set a record. And we set a record with Hispanic, with the Black community, we set a record with everybody.

With only three of the seven states in question, we win the presidency of the United States.

We won in a landslide.

The Republicans have to get tougher. You’re not going to have a Republican Party if you don’t get tougher.

In Wisconsin, corrupt Democrat-run cities deployed more than 500 illegal, unmanned, unsecured drop boxes, which collected a minimum of 91,000 unlawful votes. It was razor-thin, the loss. This one thing alone is much more than we would need.]

[2] Jack invokes a statement in an OLC opinion that “general statutes must be read as not applying to the President if they do not expressly apply where application would arguably limit the President’s constitutional role.” As I explained in an earlier post, there is no such established canon, or “clear statement rule.” The Supreme Court has never adopted it, and in landmark cases implicating the President’s ability to perform his constitutional role (such as U.S. v. Nixon and Clinton v. Jones), where one would have expected the Court to apply such a rule of construction, there’s nary a mention of it. Moreover, such a rule would have dramatic effects on many statutes that plainly regulate the President, even though Congress hasn’t said so “expressly” in the statute (e.g., the bribery and torture statutes).

In any event, the 1995 OLC opinion itself acknowledged that the alleged “clear statement principle” “does not apply with respect to a statute that raises no separation of powers questions were it to be applied to the President.” 19 Op. O.L.C. at 357 n.11. And that’s true of the statutes at issue here, which only prohibit the President (or anyone else) from acting or conspiring to defraud the United States, to corruptly interfere with U.S. proceedings, and to violate the right to vote. Such statutes can’t be applied to “limit the POTUS’s constitutional role,” because such conduct isn’t properly within that role to begin with. As David Pozen and I have discussed, even if there were no such statutes, the presidential oath and the President’s constitutional duty to take care that the laws are faithfully executed prohibit the President from using Article II powers for purely self-interested ends or to otherwise accomplish the fraudulent and corrupt objectives of the conspiracies alleged in the indictment. It follows a fortiori that a statute prohibiting such a misuse of office isn’t constitutionally problematic. See also Volume II of the Mueller Report at 8 (emphasizing that the “corruptly” standard in § 1512(c)(2) actually “aligns with the President’s constitutional duty to faithfully execute the laws”

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/articl...ump-s-immunity-from-prosecution-argument

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Originally Posted by bonefish
It is a disgrace that immunity for criminal acts is even a question.

I'm curious how the SC is going to handle this. I am not a lawyer, but they say they are going to issue an opinion.... does that mean that they are merely taking this as an opportunity to set a precedent? I honestly don't know.

And this is a question because the person at the center of this has made it an issue. It's not like the White House has been unsullied up until this point. It's that despite being caught he keeps doubling down.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Quote
And while having classified documents doesn't show intent, refusing to comply with a subpoena does.

I'm glad you mentioned that. The DC Circuit mentions this in their ruling:

The Supreme Court has
consistently held that even a sitting President is not immune
from responding to criminal subpoenas issued by state and
federal prosecutors.


Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Trump thanks Supreme Court for hearing immunity case

Former President Trump thanked the Supreme Court Wednesday for agreeing to weigh whether he can be criminally prosecuted for efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

“Legal Scholars are extremely thankful for the Supreme Court’s Decision today to take up Presidential Immunity. Without Presidential Immunity, a President will not be able to properly function, or make decisions, in the best interest of the United States of America,” Trump wrote on Truth Social.

“Presidents will always be concerned, and even paralyzed, by the prospect of wrongful prosecution and retaliation after they leave office. This could actually lead to the extortion and blackmail of a President,” he added.

The Supreme Court on Wednesday agreed to take up the case in an order that will keep Trump’s Jan. 6 criminal trial proceedings on hold. The order included an expedited schedule for the case, with the court setting up oral arguments during the week of April 22.

Trump had previously urged the Supreme Court to delay the federal election subversion criminal trial as he appealed a ruling that he does not have immunity from the charges. Special counsel Jack Smith had asked the Supreme Court to reject Trump’s request to delay the trial over his appeal.

Trump and his legal team have argued that the former president should have presidential immunity from four federal felony charges he is facing in Smith’s election interference case against him. Trump has pleaded not guilty.

Trump continued to echo those arguments in another post on Truth Social Wednesday.

“A President has to be free to determine what is right for our Country without undue pressure. If there is no Immunity, the Presidency, as we know it, will ‘no longer exist.’ Many actions for the benefit of our Country will not be taken,” Trump wrote.

“This is in no way what the Founders had in mind. Legal Experts and Scholars have stated that the President must have Full Presidential Immunity. A President must be free to make proper decisions. His mind must be clear, and he must not be guided by the fear of retribution!” he added.

https://thehill.com/regulation/cour...L91WdFngfqufDd8JeUvOMdK0Tf9Vp1v6FyA5DLIY

A not so subtle way to say a president should be above the law in no uncertain terms.

If his "Legal Experts" and "Scholars" are correct, what would prevent a dictatorship?


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Originally Posted by oobernoober
Originally Posted by bonefish
It is a disgrace that immunity for criminal acts is even a question.

I'm curious how the SC is going to handle this. I am not a lawyer, but they say they are going to issue an opinion.... does that mean that they are merely taking this as an opportunity to set a precedent? I honestly don't know.

And this is a question because the person at the center of this has made it an issue. It's not like the White House has been unsullied up until this point. It's that despite being caught he keeps doubling down.

Yep, it means that they are setting the standard, and don't want to leave it up to the plurality of the Circuit Courts. Sometimes that comes in the event where Circuit Courts have varied rulings and holdings that conflict with each other, in which case SCOTUS puts it all to rest.

Sometimes it can be for such a hot button item that SCOTUS wants to kebosh the issue right off the bat. I imagine that's what we have in the present case. Otherwise, if there is some other federal district court where Trump has the same assertions of immunity which appeals to a different circuit, the whole matter could be relitigated again.

Where this does advantage Trump either way is it will give him time at the District Court level as far as his trial date timeline. Good chance now it pushes trial past the election.


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I was not replying to you I just wrote as next in line.

I am pissed about this. This is not about red and blue. This is to the heart of this country.

It cannot be more clear. There is right and wrong. The government of this country is not functioning for the good of the people.

trump should have been removed from public office permanently the last time he was impeached. Mitch McConnell clearly stated on the podium what trump did Jan 6th.

The public hearings backed it all up. Not democrats appointed republicans publicly testified.

trump is a clear danger to this country. He should be disqualified from holding office and be put on trial immediately.

Congress is a mess. Can't pass a bill to support Ukraine. The Supreme court is a joke. Thomas should be impeached. He is bought and paid for corrupt lobbyists.

And an effing criminal traitor is running for president after he committed felonies to remain in office after he was voted out.

trump is on tape for crying out loud telling an election official to overrule the vote in Ga. and give him the votes to win.

And knuckleheads support this traitor. Amazing.

I am disgusted by what has become of this country. United States Constitution is the world's longest surviving written charter of government. Its first three words – “We The People” – affirm that the government of the United States exists to serve its citizens.

trump and his agenda is about serving trump. And now the Supreme Court is dragging their feet and obliging trump's delay tactics.

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SCOTUS is an absolute farce. Legal talking heads on MSNBC talking about how the SCOTUS did not follow normal procedures for a stay. There are several hurdles you must clear and there is no evidence any were cleared but Trump got his delay and it will keep him from court before the election. Biden needs to fix SCOTUS in his next term.

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Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Legal talking heads on MSNBC


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HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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Stacked SCOTUS aiding the Trump campaign. No biggie to the fascists. Just business as normalized.

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Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Legal talking heads on MSNBC

And that's just what they are. Talking heads. FOX News has them too.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Just remember in all of this the claim trump layers are making.....

Trump could order SEAL Team 6 to kill rivals and avoid prosecution if not impeached, lawyer says

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...p-criminal-charges-immunity/72151527007/

I do however understand that to some this is comparable to sneezing.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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