DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns QB Room

So, I know we have DW, and Winston on the 24 roster for sure. Yet, I feel like that is wholly inadequate with what we’ve seen from DW to date. Flacco is no longer an option. No idea who the thrid QB will be but hope like hell we won’t see DTR or INT Machine under center again this year. That project was an absolute FAIL. Let me know how you feel about the room, no need to be a homer for DW. If you think he’s good, you think he’s good. I don’t think he’s good here YET, not that he can’t be, but the guy does NOT do a thing that leaves me feeling good about him at QB1.

Watson was actually looking good up until he got hurt. It's annoying to still be saying this, but there's a lot of promise going into this year.

I'm bummed we didn't hang onto Flacco. I felt like we got Winston on the cheap, but Flacco signed with Indy for essentially the same contract. That's a real head-scratcher to me. I realize there's the glaring age difference, but doesn't the fact both are signing 1-year deals kinda negate that advantage? Who knows, maybe there's more to that statement that Flacco made about being able to come in mid-season super fresh.

.... or maybe we got all the injury bad juju out of our system last year and we don't have to agonize over the backup and 3rd string QB for a little while.

It’s not a head scratcher at all. I said this in the Winston thread and someone quoted a piece that said the browns had a similar take, which was they don’t want a QB controversy. They understood that Flacco had delierious, irrational levels of love from Cleveland fans and they don’t want fans, journo’s and maybe even players calling for Flacco if Watson has 2-3 poor games. And the truth is, Flacco ain’t gonna get anyone to the promise land. He’s going to give the game away at some point. If you don’t know that, you’re fooling yourself. So why have your $230MM starter hearing the calls, reading the Mary Kay articles and looking over his shoulder if you’re going to get the same production from another QB?

I’ll admit DW got better as he went, but he couldn’t stay on the field and certainly hasn’t blown the doors off the AFC North. I just don’t have faith in the player. I have no reason to have faith in him other than fandom, and I’m not a fan of his because he hasn’t earned it. Right now I see it like this, if DW starts where he left off, he’s average to slightly better. If he doesn’t take a step forward we’ll win some, but I’m not sure we’ll be contenders. If he takes a step backwards or goes down, our season will rest on Winston’s shoulders. Yuck.

Berry is trying to out think himself on the QB situation, I hope to hell his role with the team isn’t tied to DW at this point. I’d hate to lose Berry if DW fails again this year, But I don’t think bringing in somebody to make DW feel safe as starter is a very smart move. I think Winston will be a big downgrade over Flacco, hell I know it and so do y’all. And last year’s QB room going into the season was Fn atrocious, why do you expect this to be better? Flacco was the best thing to happen here since the return IMO, and should have been resigned as a no brainer. But that isn’t even what’s bothering me, it’s the lack of thought on these QBs. I want to put the best player we can get into these positions and I know they can’t all be rockstars, but QBs 1 and 2 should at minimum be consistently competitive under center or you’re not making the playoffs imo.

I don't think you could call Watson a failure last year. He got hurt. In his starts the Browns went 5-1. That is not a failure. He went on the road and beat the Ravens in his last start. Since becoming the Browns QB the team is 8-4 in Watson's starts. That is not a failure.

DW’s last game against the Ravens was legit awesome. Tough as nails, come back win and he was just the kind of no quit, put the team on my back kind of player we needed. Of course that was the game he broke his shoulder.

I’m sorry but I think there was a lot of projection going on with Flacco last year. A lot of middle age male fans frankly just related deeply to this guy coming off the couch and playing pretty well, his humble demeanor, the back against the wall nothing to lose, loose gun slinger playing style, it was refreshing and fun to watch and we won games we should have lost. But having watched a fair about of Jets games the year before (I live in the NY area) his biggest knock wasn’t just going to disappear. And against the Texans he did what he’s destined to do at some point or another… throw back to back pick 6’s and dig a hole that was just too deep. You’ve got to be drunk on a kind of hope I just don’t imbibe anymore if you really believe he’s just not going to throw a game away at some critical point in the season. Oh, and he’s 39.

And here’s the ultimate truth about backup QBs: if you’re relying on them for more than a few games or if your starter is done for the season, your season is almost surely toast. Last year was magical, almost the best possible case scenario for any team and we got torched in the wildcard round because… our backup QB handed the game away. Flacco maybe could have gotten us to the next round but he was a ticking time bomb. He was gonna do that at some point or another. I frankly don’t care about just getting to playoffs anymore. That’s not a real prize. The best teams in the league know this. The worst teams in the league play for a wildcard birth. Woohoo!

DW had a handful of decent games, a handful of mediocre games and a few really excellent games for us. If I’m the GM, I MUST, ABOVE ALL ELSE, do everything humanly possible to make excellent DW the most likely outcome. Like it or not we have too much invested in him in $$$ and draft capital to do otherwise. You must stick with plan A for now. Our statistical chances for raising a Lombardi trophy currently rest overwhelmingly on a healthy DW leading us there.

You have to know I HATED the DW trade, I’m not a DW homer but I’m a Browns fan first and foremost. I don’t believe chasing sunk cost, throwing good money after bad, but the verdict is not in on DW yet. This is the year the verdict comes in. The smartest thing you can do as a decision maker is to be bold, don’t start doubting and undermining yourself for consolation prizes. If you pushed all your chips in the way we did on one guy, you had better play the cards like like it and not start hedging your bets and watering down your vision.

Fans like to tout that DW was 5-1. That is spoken as quite impressive. Well... Flacco was 4-1 - and won (4) in a row. Showing none of the 'rust' that DW gets a pass on...and after hopping off the couch in mid-season.

Now we have (had) a situation where we didn't want the starter to be 'pressured' by the backup if his play sucks? How does any professional sports team think that is a good thing?

The QB 'room' in Cleveland has been a circus since Berry's been here...on AND off the field. His decision-making at QB has demonstrably been poor. He 'determined' that Baker couldn't get us to the Super Bowl. Even though Baker now has more playoff wins than DW and an equal number as the great Lamar Jackson. "They" allowed the OBJ controversy and "they" gave away a FQB who was a top 10 QB after healing up...on a re-building team with a shiz OL and no running game.

To correct that ^ poor decision, he gave away (3) 1st Rd picks...and then some...plus a boatload of $$$ for DW. The ROI thus far can only be deemed poor - at best.

Then we get the circus of last year going into a Super Bowl promise-type team with a rookie 5th Rd QB behind DW. The brilliance of cap management and the ability to 'find' other position players loses its shine if the damn QB either can't play, is injured, or is simply mediocre. We stumbled through an injured DW...the 5th Rd backup (until injured)...PJ..and then finally 'fell' into Flacco. The BEST QB on the team last year was the 4th one we tried.

At the end of the day, it's easy to conclude that the QB room under AB has been an issue from the start...and that's being nice.

Still pining for Baker? Gave away a top 10 QB? Goodness gracious.

DW will get hurt next year. It’s inevitable because you only get max value out of him when he turns himself into a RB. You are not getting max value out of him as a passer. He’s not that kind of QB. And unfortunately his body and age won’t withstand being a RB. Maybe they can teach him to slide but he hasn’t shown he can do that to date.

So the season will come down to how well Winston and DTR do in their starts. DTR led a game winning drive against the Steelers in his rookie year. Beat out Dobbs convincingly for the QB2 spot. I know who I’m choosing between the two. DTR will go into the season on paper as QB3, but when Watson goes down the team will have a tough choice to make between Winston and DTR.

I will say I think Stefanski can win with either. Stefanski has a knack for consistently getting results from non-star QBs. I would have preferred bringing back Flacco (still waiting for the leak on why we didn’t), but it is what it is.

DW played his best game in a Browns jersey in his game vs TEN imo. It seemed like he'd turned a corner. Like everyone I am hoping that's the level he returns to quickly next season .... that said i want repeat that during the 5-1 record DW compiled last season ... the opposing teams scored a total of 6 points combined in 3 of those games. I'm not sure using/quoting the w/l stat is a good indication of how DW played overall.

I disagree. Best game was against the Ravens because he had to play good to win. Players should be measured by how they play when the stakes are the highest.

However I’d gladly take a season of 28-6 wins.

Flacco came in with basically zero expectations. He was able to play loose and just let it rip and let the chips fall wherever. For awhile, it worked. Unfortunately, when you're just letting it rip you sometimes end up throwing pick sixes, and it's not really sustainable.

Meanwhile, Watson has unrealistic expectations and everything is hyper analyzed. It's a different situation. The weight of trying to constantly be perfect can be detrimental.

Hopefully Winston can help Watson to be "more loose" without turning him into a turnover machine.

This 100%

Flacco has also said he wants to start, so there's fuel on the kindling before there's even a spark. People can yell and scream that this makes no sense, but it makes perfect sense to me. Winston is the same guy but 10 years younger. And please don't tell me about pedigree, the past has nothing to do with the future of a 40-year-old back-up with just enough jeanie-in-the-bottle that fans will scream his name.

6-4 230 and willing to sling it with an able arm. Winston knows and has stated that he's here to fill the backup role and support DeShaun Watson. If Watson were to miss five or more games, I can't see a case where Flacco would bend the needle one way or another. We were lucky we had a defense that overcame his incredible turnover rate last year.

This is a little too much tin-foil-hat, IMO. I have a hard time believing the same FO that's all about competition like a broken record turns down a guy that was making some magic happen under tough circumstances for THAT reason. Just my honest opinion, as I have no evidence to back this up.

I was ready for Flacco to leave, but I thought it would be because a team wanted to roll the dice and give him borderline starter money as a bridge QB.

Indy paid him something like $7 million to be a back up/mentor so he did pretty well.

Naa Oobs, we didn't want that. We have been through the Couch/Holcomb deal.

We don't need that again.

Personally, I don’t see it. DW, DTR, and Winston will strike fear into few this year. And when, not if, DW goes down (the inevitable downside to running QBs his age), the season will be done. That’s all I’ll say on this until the games start. But I will come back to this thread in the season, just to see who said what and was right, BECAUSE I AM STILL A BAKER BRO (no shame in liking a baller), and DW couldn’t out play BAD BAKER from what I’ve seen. D won most of those games for DW, I watched them too. And it’s not he was all bad, because he wasn’t. But he wasn’t as good as the guy we shipped or the 39 year old off the couch. But if hopes and hype can win football championships, sticking with weak as hell backups AND a huge ‘maybe’ question mark on the starter should be enough to determine the importance of QB competition.. And if those DW bros don’t like how I feel, they can suck it, Baker was and is better.

And before I go, if you still think DW<Baker, I need reasons why? I can’t see it.

Yea, only the Holcomb character in this rendition is 39. And an interception machine.

I’m not stuck on Flacco, and I’m fine that he went elsewhere… But Winston and DTR behind DW going into the season? And I have a crisp $50 that says DW won’t play every game this year, so anybody thinking about taking me to the paint can just put your money where you mouth is.

Something like 20 out of the 32 starting QBs missed games last season. So the odds would appear to be in your favor regardless of it being Watson in question.

Even having said that, the question isn't just who could best replace Watson if he gets hurt. Who can help Watson be the best he can be is also a (potentially bigger) factor. I think Winston's ...unique... personality could be good for Watson.

....Nor the Derek Anderson/Brady Quinn deal....

....Nor the Hoyer/Manziel deal....


I'm sure there are more that I'd rather not re-live either.

Here is proof in black and white. If you think Baker is better than Watson/Winston then maybe you have a problem with those same colors. Career stats tell a story.

Deshaun Watson career stats

66 games, 2,089 attempts, 1,390 completions, 66.5%, 16,756 yards, average 8.0, 118 Touchdowns, 45 interceptions, 100.8 QBR, 1,994 rushing yards, 19 rushing touchdowns.

Baker Mayfield stats

89 games, 2,825 attempts, 1,750 completions, 61.9%, 20,332 yards, average 7.1, 130 touchdowns, 74 interceptions, 88.1 QBR, 823 rushing yards, 7 touchdowns

Jamies Winston Stats

93 games, 2,882 attempts, 1,763 completions, 61.1%, 22,104 yards, average 7.7, 141 touchdowns, 99 interceptions, 87 QBR, 1.214 rushing yards, 11 touchdowns


You can make a case our new backup Quarterback is better than Baker.

Does anyone really believe that IF DW stinks up the filed next year...that having Winston instead of Flacco will stop the fans' desires of seeing what the backup can do? Seriously.

This entire notion about coddling the starter so he doesn't feel pressure or threatened by another is what I expect out of middle-school pee wee football.

The management of the QB room under AB has been a shiz show.

You're in the NFL. It's time to grow up and man up. You're being paid big bucks to produce no matter whom you are. If you don't you should know what's coming. I've been a working guy all my life. If I didn't do my job the way I was expected to I knew the consequences. NFL players are always in the spotlight especially at the QB position. Deal with It.

Some seem to indicate that the main reason or only reason the Browns didn't re-sign Flacco is to avoid a QB controversy. Or that somehow a QB who has had very limited success in years in the NFL is a better mentor for DW than a SB winning QB with far more playoff experience. I would most certainly hope they're wrong on both those counts. Winston lacks the level of success in the NFL that Flacco has achieved and it isn't even close.

If you're signing a QB you think is inferior to one you aren't making an offer to return, you're allowing the fan base and to make your decisions to the detriment of the team. Football teams are supposed to get the best talent they can at every position. Doing what some claim this team is doing would be an egregious error in doing their jobs.

I don't put any stock into either of those scenarios at all. I think the reasoning is far more simplistic than that. At almost 40 Flacco would be hard pressed to be a backup for an extended length of time. That's not saying or predicting that DW will get some season ending injury early in the saeson, but a HC and FO should be prepared for a worst case scenario. He's no Tom Brady in the longevity department. Even Flacco himself made it clear his coming in fresh made all the difference. Enduring an entire season including training camp and preseason would be a big question mark for Flacco. I believe that is a huge part of why he wasn't asked to return.

Then there's that fact that yes, Flacco won games and played well for the most part. But Flacco's game is as different from DW'a game as day is to night. I'm sure all of the plays that both use are in the playbook. Where the issue arises is that the portion of the playbook Flacco can use is a fraction of it. There are a number of plays DW can execute that Flacco simply doesn't have the same skill set to accomplish.

Winston has a much closer skill set to DW. It allows Stefanski to keep the playbook open and far less limited than with Flacco. That makes for a much easier transition if Winston is called into service. Winston is so much younger they don't have to be concerned about the rigors of an entire season regiment. For me those are solid reasons with which to base the decision to go with Winston over Flacco.

Hopefully I'm correct about that. Because if this FO is allowing the opinions of the fans and the media to dictate their football decisions, we're in big trouble. And I for one don't believe we are.

Baker wasn't AB's pick. Brissett worked out about as well as could be expected. Flacco worked out better than most fans expected.

Unfortunately, things go wrong in football and you have to be able to adapt. AB has made lemonade out of lemons. Hopefully he can find the right amount of sugar for the Watson lemon to make that work out, too.

jc..

Why The Great Browns Backup Quarterback Debate matters – Terry Pluto

Story by Terry Pluto, cleveland.com
link


 CLEVELAND, Ohio – “Who cares about the backup quarterback – if Deshaun Watson isn’t healthy, the Browns have no chance to go to the Super Bowl.”

I’ve been hearing that from some fans and media members during Cleveland’s Great Backup Quarterback Debate: Joe Flacco vs. Jameis Winston.

In one sense, it’s probably true. No Watson playing at a Pro Bowl level, no chance of a Super Bowl.

OK, if Watson gets hurt … just cancel the season. Why bother to play any more games?

That seems to be the rationalization.

WHY THE BACKUP QB MATTERS
Browns fans, was the 2023 season fun? That’s a legitimate question.

Sports should be a diversion from real life. Did the Browns allow fans some relief from the daily problems? Was it fascinating to watch coach Kevin Stefanski find a way to win games with four different QBs and make the playoffs with an 11-6 record?

Were the Browns going to the Super Bowl with a parade of Dorian Thompson-Robinson (DTR), P.J. Walker and Flacco filling in for the injured Watson?

Or course not.

But is that a reason to give up on the season? You know the answer to that.

Watson was 4-1 in games where he played the majority of snaps. The collection of DTR, Walker and Flacco were 7-4.

The Browns lost the final game of the season with a fifth QB – Jeff Driskel. It was a game where they rested the starters as they awaited the playoffs.

My point is the backups were 7-4 in meaningful games without Watson. It’s why they made the playoffs. Flacco was the great QB closer, having a 4-1 record in his final five regular season starts.

WHAT THE TEAM OWES THE FANS
The failure to have a legitimate backup QB is inexcusable, especially when a team is supposed to be a playoff contender. NFL teams charge big money to the fans. It’s their obligation to put a respectable product on the field.

A decent backup QB helps keep fans interested in the team in an era where starting QBs are regularly injured. There were 66 different starting QBs last season, the changes mostly due to injuries.

Heading into the 2024 season, the Browns front office knows Watson is coming off major shoulder surgery. They can be hopeful about him staying healthy, but they must be realistic.

So far, Watson has not been the same player who led the NFL in passing yardage in 2020 as a member of the Houston Texans. That’s a fact.

He’s also only played 12 games over the last three seasons due to a holdout (2021), suspension (11 games in 2022) and injuries (2023).

It took a while in 2023 for the Browns to bring in Flacco, but they did – just in time.

CAN’T REPEAT LAST SEASON
The Browns went into 2023 operating under the assumption Watson would stay healthy. That had been the case from 2018-20 in Houston when he missed only one game.

In his first three years running the Browns, GM Andrew Berry knew he needed a solid backup QB. He had Case Keenum (2020-21) and Jacoby Brissett (2022). You could start those guys and not fear a disaster.

Last season, they had Josh Dobbs and DTR. Right before the opener, they traded Dobbs and a seventh-round pick to Arizona for a 2024 fifth-round pick.

That left them with DTR and Walker as backups. Watson began having rotator cuff problems early in the season. He came back and played. Then hurt his shoulder and was done for the year after the Nov. 12 victory over Baltimore.

The Browns won a game with DTR, two games with Walker and then Flacco arrived.

By signing Winston, Berry returned to his usual business with backup QBs. While not my first choice for the job, Winston is a viable option.

WINSTON THE PERSON
Let’s start with the character issue, and Winston had major problems in this area early in his career. But his last trouble spot was a three-game suspension in 2018 for his conduct with an Uber driver.

I did some research for a column, and Winston has grown into an excellent teammate and a beloved member of the New Orleans community. He is well known for his civic and church activities. It’s an impressive turnaround.

When he joined the Saints in 2020, he came under the influence of Drew Brees. It was part of Winston’s growth as a person.

“I really love Drew Brees like I don’t think he understands,” Winston said when Brees retired in 2021. “I know my wife does and I know my family does. But you don’t understand the impact that him and a lot of other quarterbacks have had on me.”

Brees is a great role model, person and pro. His impact on Winston is obvious.

WINSTON THE PLAYER
I’m more concerned with the football question: Can Winston help the Browns win enough games to make the playoffs if called upon to do so?

Let’s break it down:

1. The Browns are counting on Winston to be the 2021 model. He started the first seven games for New Orleans. The Saints had a 5-2 record. He threw 14 TD passes compared to three interceptions. It was the only time in his career he stayed away from high interception totals.

2. That 2021 season ended after those seven games for Winston, who had ACL knee surgery.

3. In 2022, he opened as a starter, but suffered a foot and back injury in the first three games. Andy Dalton took over as the starter.

4. In 2023, Winston backed up Derek Carr. Winston didn’t start a game in 2023. He was 25 of 47 passing with a pair of TDs and three interceptions.

5. In his last two seasons, Winston has a 1-2 record as a starter. He completed 59% of his passes, with six TDs compared to eight interceptions. Not much to go on.

The 6-foot-4, 231-pound Winston is only 30 years old. Once upon a time, he was the No. 1 pick in the 2015 draft by Tampa Bay. He has a strong arm, but threw a lot of interceptions. It also was in the poor decision-making period of his life.

His last full season as a starter was 2019, when he had a 7-9 record. Tampa Bay threw it all the time, Winston firing 33 TD passes and 30 interceptions.

I would have preferred Brissett, Flacco or Gardner Minshew for the spot. But I do respect Berry’s track record selecting backups – Flacco, Keenum and Brissett. That’s why I’m very open to seeing if Winston can deliver a winning performance. Watson’s injury history shows why this was an important move for the Browns.

©2024 Advance Local Media LLC. Visit cleveland.com. Distributed by Tribune Content Agency, LLC.

All I can say is it will be interesting to see how it all works out.

I think we all may have been overlooking a rather big part of the QB rooms. AVP is off to New England. Ashton Grant has the QB Coach title, though we also have longtime QB coach Bill Musgrave on staff. Plus, Stefanski has at times been considered a QB guy.

The Steelers have Arthur Smith (OC) and Tom Arth (QB coach) to work with Wilson and Fields.

That's a lot of moving parts. Who knows how they'll all work together?

Odd signing but a decent backup QB. Anything we can take away from other ACFN teams is a good thing.

That certainly doesn't make it look good for DTR especially if the Browns only dress 2 QB's and bounce the other back and forth to the PS. Winston has a 4M dollar deal with 1.21M guaranteed and the balance in prorated bonus that the Browns will have to account for so he's not going anywhere. Depends what Huntley's deal is but beating out DTR would appear to be a foregone conclusion. Cutting DTR will only result in Dead Money of $256,701 and save $743,866 to the cap.

AB likes competition. I would not be surprised if Huntley is battling Winston for the backup role.

I think the Browns are better positioning themselves with the backup QB role. Whoever does not win the backup role will at least be on the sidelines to step in if needed.

backup QB's playing meaningful minutes means your season is over 99% of the time.

Which means you shouldn't try to have a qualified back up QB?

Last ear we saw a backup QB go 4-1.

Huntley signing could also be insurance in case Watson's shoulder isn't ready to handle a full workload throughout training camp. Or simply a case of managing his workload.

Winston was the first overall pick because the team he went to wasn't very good at the time. Huntley was on a perennial playoff team.

I'm on board with giving both a chance to show what they can do here. We went through 4 QBs last year. It makes sense to try to be better prepared for that eventuality.