DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Ukraine and Russia Cont.

I'll only address one of your points. That being point one. While they may be doing it for political reasons, they know without a doubt what the results of their actions will be There's no way they can't be fully aware that by cutting aid of to Ukraine gives Putin a free pass to take it over. Whether that's their main motivation or not they're fully aware of the consequences their actions will lead to and have chosen to do it anyway. No amount of excuses will change that.

Bull...so you agree with me..the Radical RWers who are holding up the military aid to Ukraine are helping Putin/Russia achieve his goal.

The "stupidity and greed" you reference can be sourced back to one individual, Trump, "the dumb one". Filling the role of "and dumber" would be the elected Republicans who are willing to carry out the Trump/Putin anti-American plan to help Putin take over Ukraine.

I was wondering how long it would take Putin to try and lean into it being tied to Ukraine. It didn't take long.......

Putin Speaks Out on Moscow Mass Shooting

Russian President Vladimir Putin alleged that Ukraine tried to help in the escape of the perpetrators of the terrorist attack on the Moscow concert center that has killed at least 133 people.

The Islamic State (IS) group has claimed responsibility for Friday night's attack on Crocus City Hall, a large music venue, in which armed men entered and opened fire on concertgoers. The United States said the IS claim was credible.

Putin said on Saturday that all the suspects had been apprehended on their way to Ukraine where "early reports indicate that a window had been prepared to cross the international border," although the Russian leader did not blame Kyiv directly.

Newsweek has not yet been able to verify Putin's claims and Ukraine has firmly denied it had anything to do with the attacks. Newsweek has contacted the Ukrainian foreign ministry for comment.

In his comments more than 19 hours after the attack, the Russian leader said that the four direct perpetrators of the terrorist attack have been arrested and a total of 11 people had been detained.

"It is already obvious that we are faced with more than just a cynical, planned terrorist attack," he said. "All the perpetrators, organizers and customers of this crime will be punished. Whoever they are, whoever directs them. I repeat, we will establish and punish everyone who stands behind the terrorists, who prepared this atrocity, this blow for Russia, for our people."

He added that "terrorists, murderers...who do not and cannot have a nationality will face one unenviable fate, retribution and oblivion."

Putin, meanwhile, made no mention of IS in his address in which he declared Sunday a national day of mourning.

However, comments from Kremlin propagandists have prompted social media users to speculate that Putin was planning to blame the attacks on Ukraine.

"Certainly looks like the Kremlin will blame Kyiv, presumably paving the way for more mobilization," Kevin Rothrock from independent Russian media outlet Meduza posted on X, formerly Twitter, on Saturday.

"Russia's persistent attempts to implicate Ukraine in the attack began with military bloggers and propagandists and have now come full circle," security expert Maria Avdeeva wrote on X, who added, "typical Russian disinformation at play."

Putin's comments coincided with a statement by Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova who said Kyiv's "regime has been carrying out active and systematic terrorist activities against Russian citizens."

Unverified videos shared on social media purported to show two men who had been arrested over the attack, although neither mentioned any connection with Ukraine.

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-putin-ukraine-crocus-terror-1882657

If they're not going to do anything else, yes. I'd prefer they did something else/in addition, but doing nothing is definitely not the answer.

Stupidity and greed were in DC before Trump and will probably be there long after.

Unfortunately, I think people that think all we have to do is send the "insignificant amount" of aid that we have been and are spreading that message are also "helping Putin take over Ukraine."

Maybe we want this to drag out as long as possible and weaken both. I guess the aid approach would make a certain amount of sense in that light. Hope Putin dies before the Ukrainians wear out. Kind of lousy for Ukraine, but it does lessen risks to us.

I still believe the longer this goes on the more likely Russia is to win. Also that Russia could keep it going more or less indefinitely, and thus eventually win. But, if Putin dies before that eventually happens, a lot could change. And we wouldn't be risking nuclear Armageddon (hopefully.)

Personally, still don't like backing down from Putin, but I'm stubborn like that and dislike bullies.

As a US taxpayer, can I get an audit of all money being sent to Ukraine and Israel? How do we know its being spent wisely? Personally I believe its a waste.

Instead of continuing to support wars that are not even ours, I'd like to shift all those funds to things such as helping veterans, securing the border, the homeless, mental health, the education system. The current administration cares more about foreign countries than they do the United States. November can't come soon enough.

I'd love to see RFK JR become the next president. I think that would be good for everyone if we could move on from past candidates.

Ukraine is getting military supplies, not money. I don't disagree with the things you say we should spend money on. I also don't think we should just sit idly by while Putin gains power and we are on the verge of WW3. People said the same thing you did when Hitler invaded Poland. And the cost of WWs the result. WW2 far outweighed what we are doing by trying to help stop Putin before history repeats itself.

Yes, having president that buys into every conspiracy theory he can find it what's good for America. I didn't think purple was needed.

Actually they have been getting both. 26 Billion was in cash, the rest was in equipment. The majority of the aid was in equipment.

First off, my apologies for not replying sooner. I generally post at work and when I'm off the mfg floor and it's been absolutely nuts lately.

There were 2 counteroffensives. The first was incredibly successful. The second was a dud.

First counteroffensive happened because Ukraine was able to attack where Russia wasn't expecting, and Russia's poor supply chain left them vulnerable in spots where they weren't focused on at the time. TLDR, Russia military is a joke.

The second counteroffensive had some more stuff going on. Ukraine was promised advanced tanks but those were delayed. Russia used that time to dig in, which made advancing really tough. There were also expectations coming out of the the first counteroffensive.

I don't think the conflict has degraded Ukraine to such an extent that they wouldn't be able to have success again if they were properly equipped. The problem with allowing Russia to dig in is that the price to once again push them back has gone up. In order for Ukraine to gain back territory they are probably going to need another game-changer (longer-range missiles or F-16s). From some of your other posts, it sounds like you might be mixing up what Russia has been doing with its mobilization instead of Ukraine. Russia has been the one that's been hastily sending poorly trained and poorly equipped people to the battlefield. Ukraine may or may not be doing that (and the way things are going it's going to head that way soon if not already).

I agree with you in that the longer this drags on, the probability of a Russia win goes up.

It's frustrating to see Ukraine get hung out to dry while Israel continues to enjoy essentially a blank check in terms of military support. I understand that they're an ally, but at the same time the middle east is a nightmare that we seem to have no problem dumping military resources into... plus despite Oct 7 Israel is struggling to maintain the moral high ground. Compare that to Ukraine (maintain buffer between Russia and NATO is in everyone's best interest, plus Russia is the aggressor with Putin already wanted by the Hague).

I do think Russia's military has issues, too. I know they are also sending largely untrained troops. The difference is that Russia has more of them to send and is bringing many of them in from places that don't see the destruction beforehand. New Ukrainian troops know their country is being torn apart. Russia is tempting poor people from outside its borders with pay checks now. It's not really "sacrificing" its core (as much.) I also think Russia could have very well been trying to get rid of (potential) dissenters and internal political opposition in the early going. If a military faction had been planning a coup, sending them into battle in the first wave when the casualties are highest is an effective way to "de-fang" that situation. These things are often operating on multiple levels.

While Russia did have logistics issues, those weren't really tactical errors so much as vulnerable necessities (or potentially getting rid of a problem while seeming to be doing something else.) They may have thought Ukraine wasn't able to (or simply wouldn't) exploit the vulnerabilities, but to do what Russia wanted to do they had to get troops and supplies in place. Putin is willing to sacrifice pawns to get his strategy in place. He has a lot more pawns, and honestly seems to see all his "pieces" in that light. Russia advanced to get to important spots. Ukraine's counteroffensive advanced without getting to places of much strategic value. Ukraine sacrificed a decent chunk of its core without much to show for it. Sure, they're covering more of the chessboard, but they're not really controlling it. They more have spread out pieces that are now more vulnerable, and are "leaving their king (Kyiv) undefended (/less defended.)"

Maybe that's not accurate. It does seem to be how the pieces fit together in the big picture to me.

It seems people are overselling Russia's problems and underselling Ukraine's. I think it comes back to group dynamics. In the US, "we" tend to see Ukraine as the "us" side and Russia as the "them" side. It's "natural" to give the "us" side more benefit of the doubt while finding more flaws in the "them" side.

While not having an "us" side can be a miserable existence at times, I feel like it gives me a somewhat more balanced perspective of "them" and "them." I can still acknowledge their flaws without feeling like their flaws are my flaws and struggling with that cognitive dissonance. That cognitive dissonance all too often seems to result in minimizing or ignoring "us" flaws.

I'd prefer the Ukrainian "them" to win. I'm not sure how biased the perspectives are, and, thus, the likelihood of that happening, though.

Lol, I apologize if I come off like a self righteous A-hole. Behaviors observed in childhood are easy to find one's self emulating. I'm coming to understand how feelings can affect perception.

Welp. I was going to send you a response and then my screen refreshed and I lost it all. Great stuff. I like the discussion and wanted to let you know I don't think you're self-righteous.

Hopefully I'll get to remaking the point later.

I try not to be. I definitely can be when roused, though.

Hate it when technology decides not to cooperate.

That’s why I use chat gpt as my own personal diary, that way I can ask homeboy what I said the night before when I was stoned out of my mind.

I definitely understand your perspective. I am starting to think that you and I are kinda saying the same thing. My perspective is "what can be done to get Ukraine back to kicking butt".

Really, I'm just posting to say that I appreciate the discussion.

A word of warning rather you actually do this or not, there is a 100% chance your ChatGPT interactions are being used to improve the AI. Sometimes that involves human eyes. So keep that in mind until you get a locally run llm. There are a ton of tutorials for that YouTube, FYI.

bro its cool, I welcome our new Skynet overlords with open arms. little ole me cant do anything about it, so oh well.

jc


Western air bases that host Ukraine's F-16s are 'legitimate' targets for Russia, says Putin

https://www.yahoo.com/news/western-air-bases-host-ukraines-115906226.html

If there's any threat that I want Putin to finally make good on, it's this one.

Please, bro. Do it.

Yeah, no kidding, that would be suicidal especially hitting a Polish base. Pols still hate the Russians for not helping them fight off the NAZIS early bliz WWII.

Exclusive-Iran alerted Russia to security threat before Moscow attack, sources say

https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-iran-alerted-russia-security-090438109.html

So, even their homies gave them a heads up about the attack.

but we know who was getting blamed regardless of the facts. Ukraine.

edit: just popped up in my head: lots of similarities between this attack and the attack in Israel.

You know what, you’re right. Think about it. If Iran warned Russia and Putin still allowed the attack, what does that say? And if the US warned Israel and Netanyahu still allowed the attacks to happen, what does that say?

It says maybe people should question Netanyahu's words and actions a little more than they do.

Putin as well

And what will US do about it? Nothing.

The GOPer Congress first order of biz is impeachment.

Every nation involved in war or conflict uses misinformation to bolster their side of things. Each and everyone of them has a vested interest in portraying themselves as the good guy and their adversaries as the bad guys. So none of them can be taken at their word. The only people that can be trusted are those that have no dog in the fight. Outside humanitarian groups are a good place to start. All they are there for is to feed hungry people and provide medical aid.

This is an honest question, how do Republicans explain the trump defense of Vladimir Putin?

I’m not sure how he is not at least global enemy #2, today, right now?

I don't get it, either.

Any time Putin's name is brought up, Trump's demeanor/body language changes from 'Boss Daddy' to 'whipped-azz b#' mode in a New York second. It's crazy... but it's always been there for all to see, via hundreds of video moments that are now part of The Public Domain.

And now, it seems as though an entire party of America's political system is ready to follow him, no matter what.


Repeat: I don't get it, either. And the fact that I can't find a way to make sense of/understand it concerns me.
Deeply.

I can only speak to my Republican friends, they are more concerned about China. They aren’t concerned about a brutal dictator, marching though Europe. Sound familiar?

I have a Republican friend that rips Lebron James, and says nothing about Putin. Very 1950s American flag.

The House passes billions in aid for Ukraine and Israel after months of struggle

BY STEPHEN GROVES AND LISA MASCARO
Updated 2:04 PM EDT, April 20, 2024
link


WASHINGTON (AP) — The House is pushing swiftly through a series of votes in a rare Saturday session to approve $95 billion in foreign aid for Ukraine, Israel and other U.S. allies, Democrats and Republicans joining together after a grueling monthslong fight over renewed American support for repelling Russia’s invasion.

With overwhelming support, the House approved the Ukraine portion, a $61 billion aid package, in a strong showing of American backing as lawmakers race to deliver a fresh round of U.S. support to the war-torn ally. Some lawmakers cheered, waiving blue-and-yellow flags of Ukraine.

The $26 billion package aiding Israel and providing humanitarian relief to citizens of Gaza also easily cleared. Each segment of the aid package faced an up-or-down vote. A national security bill that includes a provision forcing sale of the popular platform TikTok was quickly approved, as was another supporting Indo-Pacific allies.

The unusual process is allowing unique coalitions to form around the bills, pushing them forward. The whole package will go to the Senate, where passage in the coming days is nearly assured. President Joe Biden has promised to sign it immediately.

“The eyes of the world are upon us, and history will judge what we do here and now,” said Rep. Michael McCaul, R-Texas, chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

The weekend scene presented a striking display of congressional action after months of dysfunction and stalemate fueled by Republicans, who hold the majority but are deeply split over foreign aid, particularly for Ukraine as it fights Russia’s invasion. Speaker Mike Johnson, putting his job on the line, is relying on Democratic support to ensure the military and humanitarian package is approved, and help flows to the U.S. allies.

The morning opened with a somber and serious debate and unusual sense of purpose, Republican and Democratic leaders united to urge swift passage that would ensure the United States supports its allies and remains a leader on the world stage. The House’s visitor galleries crowded with onlookers.

“Sometimes when you are living history, as we are today, you don’t understand the significance of the actions of the votes that we make on this House floor, of the effect that it will have down the road,” said New York Rep. Gregory Meeks, the top Democrat on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. “This is a historic moment.”

Passage through the House would clear away the biggest hurdle to Biden’s funding request, first made in October as Ukraine’s military supplies began to run low. The GOP-controlled House, skeptical of U.S. support for Ukraine, struggled for months over what to do, first demanding that any assistance be tied to policy changes at the U.S.-Mexico order, only to immediately reject a bipartisan Senate offer along those very lines.

Reaching an endgame has been an excruciating lift for Johnson that has tested both his resolve and his support among Republicans, with a small but growing number now openly urging his removal from the speaker’s office. Yet congressional leaders cast the votes as a turning point in history — an urgent sacrifice as U.S. allies are beleaguered by wars and threats from continental Europe to the Middle East to the Indo-Pacific.

“The only thing that has kept terrorists and tyrants at bay is the perception of a strong America, that we would stand strong,” Johnson said this week. “This is a very important message that we are going to send the world.”


Opponents, particularly the hard-right Republicans from Johnson’s majority, argued that the U.S. should focus on the home front, addressing domestic border security and the nation’s rising debt load, and they warned against spending more money, which largely flows to American defense manufacturers, to produce weaponry used overseas.

Still, Congress has seen a stream of world leaders visit in recent months, from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to Japanese Prime Minister Fumio Kishida, all but pleading with lawmakers to approve the aid. Globally, the delay left many questioning America’s commitment to its allies.


At stake has also been one of Biden’s top foreign policy priorities — halting Russian President Vladimir Putin’s advance in Europe. After engaging in quiet talks with Johnson, the president quickly endorsed Johnson’s plan this week, paving the way for Democrats to give their rare support to clear the procedural hurdles needed for a final vote.

“We have a responsibility, not as Democrats or Republicans, but as Americans to defend democracy wherever it is at risk,” the House Democratic leader, New York Rep. Hakeem Jeffries, said during the debate.

While aid for Ukraine will likely win a majority in both parties, a significant number of progressive Democrats are expected to vote against the bill aiding Israel as they demand an end to the bombardment of Gaza that has killed thousands of civilians.

At the same time, Donald Trump, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, has loomed large over the fight, weighing in from afar via social media statements and direct phone calls with lawmakers as he tilts the GOP to a more isolationist stance with his “America First” brand of politics.

Ukraine’s defense once enjoyed robust, bipartisan support in Congress, but as the war enters its third year, a bulk of Republicans oppose further aid. Trump ally Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, R-Ga., offered an amendment to zero out the money, but it was rejected.

At one point, Trump’s opposition essentially doomed the bipartisan Senate proposal on border security. This past week, Trump also issued a social media post that questioned why European nations were not giving more money to Ukraine, though he spared Johnson from criticism and said Ukraine’s survival was important.

Still, the ultraconservative House Freedom Caucus has derided the legislation as the “America Last” foreign wars package and urged lawmakers to defy Republican leadership and oppose it because the bills do not include border security measures.

Johnson’s hold on the speaker’s gavel has also grown more tenuous in recent days as three Republicans, led by Greene, supported a “motion to vacate” that can lead to a vote on removing the speaker. Egged on by far-right personalities, she is also being joined by a growing number of lawmakers including Reps. Thomas Massie, R-Ky., who is urging Johnson to voluntarily step aside, and Paul Gosar, R-Ariz.

The speaker’s office has been working furiously to drum up support for the bill, as well as for Johnson, R-La.

The package includes several Republican priorities that Democrats endorse, or at least are willing to accept. Those include proposals that allow the U.S. to seize frozen Russian central bank assets to rebuild Ukraine; impose sanctions on Iran, Russia, China and criminal organizations that traffic fentanyl; and legislation to require the China-based owner of the popular video app TikTok to sell its stake within a year or face a ban in the United States.

Still, the all-out push to get the bills through Congress is a reflection not only of politics, but realities on the ground in Ukraine. Top lawmakers on national security committees, who are privy to classified briefings, have grown gravely concerned about the situation in recent weeks. Russia has increasingly used satellite-guided gliding bombs — which allow planes to drop them from a safe distance — to pummel Ukrainian forces beset by a shortage of troops and ammunition.

I’m saying right now, Johnson will not be removed. Dem leadership puts on yeat another master-class from the minority. Jeffries will be your next dem speaker and there is absolutely no doubt.

Thanks to Mike Johnson for FINALLY doing the right thing under ridiculous circumstances.

Maybe this is just my hope clouding my perception, but it seems to me that MTG's shtick is getting old where it holds the most weight... within her own party.

I don't think at this point they can continue down the path of playing to her and a hand full of the extremists whims. The dysfunction on the part of Republicans in the House to provide a functioning government is not a good look heading into the 2024 election and I feel they know they need to change course. If it takes the Democrats to save Johnson's job it will look even worse for them.

Yep they kinda painted themselves right into a corner. Hard to jump out without mucking it up again.

That's why a decent part of me hopes she goes through with her motion to vacate. I want her to overplay her hand finally stoke the ire of more people like Tony Gonzalez who have at least acknowledged them as "scumbags." If the motion was shot down because of the Democrats, that's a horrible look for her. If the House falls into another disarray of failed votes for another Speaker, that's still another horrible look for her. It's a lose-lose, but she's trying to keep up her "brand" so I say, let her do it.

Senate overwhelmingly passes aid for Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan with big bipartisan vote

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Senate has passed $95 billion in war aid to Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan, sending the legislation to President Joe Biden after months of delays and contentious debate over how involved the United States should be in foreign wars.

The bill passed the Senate on an overwhelming 79-18 vote late Tuesday after the House had approved the package Saturday. Biden, who worked with congressional leaders to win support, said in a statement immediately after passage that he will sign it Wednesday and start the process of sending weapons to Ukraine, which has been struggling to hold its front lines against Russia.

“Tonight, a bipartisan majority in the Senate joined the House to answer history’s call at this critical inflection point,” Biden said.

The legislation would also send $26 billion in wartime assistance to Israel and humanitarian relief to citizens of Gaza, and $8 billion to counter Chinese threats in Taiwan and the Indo-Pacific. U.S. officials said about $1 billion of the aid could be on its way shortly, with the bulk following in coming weeks.

In an interview with The Associated Press shortly before the vote, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., said that if Congress hadn’t passed the aid, “America would have paid a price economically, politically, militarily.”

“Very few things we have done have risen to this level of historic importance,” he said.

On the Senate floor, Schumer said the Senate was sending a message to U.S. allies: “We will stand with you.”

Schumer and Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell made passage of the legislation a top priority, agreeing to tie the Ukraine and Israel aid to help ensure passage and arguing there could be dire consequences for the United States and many of its global allies if Russian President Vladimir Putin’s aggression is left unchecked. They worked with House Speaker Mike Johnson, a Republican, to overcome seemingly intractable Republican opposition to the Ukraine aid, in particular — eventually winning large majorities in both chambers.

McConnell said in a separate interview before the vote that it “is one of the biggest days in the time that I’ve been here.”

“At least on this episode, I think we turned the tables on the isolationists,” McConnell said.

In the end, 31 Republicans voted for the aid package — nine more than when the Senate passed a similar version in February, and a majority of the Senate GOP conference. The House approved the package in a series of four votes on Saturday, with the Ukraine portion passing 311-112.

The $61 billion for Ukraine comes as the war-torn country desperately needs new firepower and as Russian President Vladimir Putin has stepped up his attacks. Ukrainian soldiers have struggled as Russia has seized the momentum on the battlefield and gained significant territory.

Bidentold Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy on Monday the U.S. will send badly needed air defense weaponry as soon as the legislation is passed.

“The President has assured me that the package will be approved quickly and that it will be powerful, strengthening our air defense as well as long-range and artillery capabilities,” Zelenskyy said in a post on X on Monday.

In an effort to gain more votes, Republicans in the House majority also added a bill to the foreign aid package that could ban the social media app TikTok in the U.S. if its Chinese owners do not sell their stake within a year. That legislation had wide bipartisan support in both chambers.

The TikTok bill was one of several tweaks Johnson made to the package the Senate passed in February as he tried to move the bill through the House despite significant opposition within his conference. Other additions include a stipulation that $9 billion of the economic assistance to Ukraine is in the form of “forgivable loans"; provisions that allow the U.S. to seize frozen Russian central bank assets to rebuild Ukraine; and bills to impose sanctions on Iran, Russia, China and criminal organizations that traffic fentanyl.

Those changes appears to have brought some of the nine additional Senate Republicans on board, bringing support to more than half of McConnell’s conference.

South Carolina Sen. Lindsey Graham, a longtime hawk who voted against the foreign aid package in February because it wasn’t paired with legislation to stem migration at the border, was one of the Republicans who switched their votes. “If we don’t help Ukraine now, this war will spread, and Americans who are not involved will be involved,” Graham said.

The package has had broad congressional support since Biden first requested the money last summer. But congressional leaders had to navigate strong opposition from a growing number of conservatives who question U.S. involvement in foreign wars and argue that Congress should be focused instead on the surge of migration at the U.S.-Mexico border.

Ohio Sen. J.D. Vance, a Republican who is a close ally to Donald Trump, said that despite the strong showing of support for funding Ukraine’s defense, opposition is growing among Republicans.

“The United States is spread too thin,” Vance said, “And that argument, I think, is winning the American people and it’s slowly winning the Senate, but it’s not going to happen overnight.”

The growing fault line in the GOP between those conservatives who are skeptical of the aid and the more traditional “Reagan Republicans” who strongly support it may prove to be career-defining for the two top Republican leaders.

McConnell, who has made the Ukraine aid a top priority, said last month that he would step down from leadership after becoming increasingly distanced from many in his conference on the Ukraine aid and other issues. Johnson, who said he put the bills on the floor after praying for guidance, faces threats of an ouster after a majority of Republicans voted against the aid to Ukraine.

Johnson said after House passage that “we did our work here, and I think history will judge it well.”

Opponents in the Senate, like the House, included some left-wing senators who are opposed to aiding Israel as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has bombarded Gaza and killed thousands of civilians. Sens. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., and Jeff Merkley, D-Ore., voted against the package.

“We must end our complicity in this terrible war,” Sanders said.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-ukraine-aid-tiktok-senate-8fe738b17e5c4b2636bc0de11b2620b7

This is a good thing, I’m glad cooler heads prevailed.

The bigger issue is how the leader of the free world, gave vp not only a pass, the red carpet. This isn’t a hyperbolic synopsis of the American policial system. This should have been easy ethics and morals, from day one.