DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus The Economy Part 2

"Great party! The punch tastes fantastic. The only thing it needs to be perfect- is a turd."

That’s nice. One thing I noticed there last time I went is the Kroger cream cheese was like $2.79 while the same size Philadelphia tub was like $7. WHO’s paying for that difference??? Crazy.

The grocery store by where a live is Harris Teeter
I like a beverage called zevia
Interesting pricing though

A 12 pack of cans is $11
A 6 pack is $7 - means 12 cans=$14

Ikr! I clip coupons and shop sales. I also like Krogers Plus Card. They give you gas discounts based on how much you spend in the store. I routinely get 20-40 cents per gallon off. Thats a good deal. I bought a bunch of gift cards at Christmas and got an 80 cent per gallon discount. Fill that tank up!

My "expertise" in business. It is most profitable for those providing the work to perform a quality of work that they will have to do again in the shortest future term possible while keeping the contract. Planned obsolescence would seem to be a big part of what is wrong with our economy/culture. There used to be pride in quality and innovation. Now "everything" is about maximizing profits.

What people will get a kick out of is that you seem to advocate and support corporate America financially rape consumers. And no, you didn't simply suggest it. You outright said it.....

There's only one problem with your theory. These contracts are being bid on. The company that does the work is on no way guaranteed to have the opportunity to do it the next time. And if their work is shoddy the odds are they may not even get a chance to bid on the work the next time. The best chance of them getting more contracts is to do good work. Not the other way around.

In some cases I would agree with you. In this country more and more things are getting monopolized. 05 points that out as it pertains to military suppliers. In that case the government is pretty much held hostage and I would say your example applies well. But that doesn't hold true in this case. There are several contractors that can complete such projects and if you do crappy work you won't get rewarded for it by "getting to do the job over next time".

In this case doing shoddy work is counterproductive to the future business of your company.

On Friday's at Kroger you get 4x the fuel points on your groceries if you clip the digital coupon. I normally get between $1.20 to $1.40 in gas savings a month that way. That's based on spending $400 or just a little more a month on groceries at Kroger. Some things I prefer to purchase at Publix. Sometimes Kroger simply doesn't carry the brand I want. And Publix baked goods are far superior.

Good tip, thanks!

It doesn't really invalidate the theory if the entire industry operates under the same "principles." Do just a "good enough" (shoddy) job that they consider letting you do it again in the near future. Emphasis on it needing to be done again in the near future. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say collusion, but they all seem to utilize similar methods to maintain profitability.

I don't know about where you are, but around here, "they" seem to do the same (bad) roadwork over and over again with increasing regularity.

By it by the truckload, maybe it’ll be free with that much of a discount for a 12. Good thing corps aren’t price gouging…

This is the way

We have Kroger in Vegas, but it’s called Smiths. We routinely have $1 off gas from shopping there which helps when you consider Vegas gas prices. Since we shop at Smiths because we like the store we have taken advantage of this gas perk routinely over the years.

However we just completed our cross country trek to Ohio in one of our Teslas. Three days, 2k miles. Went surprisingly well. If all goes well on the return trek home we will go to a full electric car family and sell our remaining gas vehicle.

Therefore, I am now opening bidding on our gas rewards. PM me.

It absolutely does. They are competing against each other to get the work. Somehow you have twisted that into collusion of some sort.


Temporary repair work yes. But then it's intended to be a temporary fix. Full road replacement no.

I said I wouldn't go so far as collusion. Yes, they compete for the contract. Yet, none of them strive to do the job so well that it won't need to be done again for awhile. I get that doing so wouldn't be great for their business. That's my point. Our economy is in a place where it's bad for business to do good work. We used to innovate and change to sustain businesses. Now we provide junk designed to break so we can provide similar junk that will break again, so we can provide similar junk again, etc. The planned obsolescence (or schemed profits) approach to business is detrimental to society and the planet. The throw away and replace attitude that has been engendered is not good.

They seem to do full road replacement rather frequently here.

Roads don't last forever. Doing substandard work is counterproductive for your business. Not everything is a conspiracy.

J/C

Most local temporary road repairs are completed by city/county public works. Bigger projects such as bridge and new road construction go to bid overseen by state DOTs. Interstate repairs are federal subsidized and overseen by the state DOTs who control the quality of work on highways and roads.

I’ll just leave this here.

Local municipalities do not have the equipment nor manpower to do major road construction. Their main job as it pertains to roads is normal maintenance and upkeep. Potholes and the like.

All major road construction be it city, county or highways is contracted out.

Now I may be able to see what Bull is saying if his theory was that the materials used are not now as of the high standards as the past. That would certainly be a possibility. But at each step of the way these projects are inspected to make sure they meet the standards required. They can't simply cut corners to avoid these standards.

Those inspection standards do vary from locality to locality. To insure you're doing the work up to the local, state or federal codes you must pay close attention to the requirements in each of those cases.

I said temporary repairs not major road construction, but you do you.

Heaven forbid if I agree with you about something.

I was imply explaining why they don't do major road projects.

Ok, we’re cool.

The state DOT specs out std road construction, materials, techniques and best practices. They also inspect to those standards that need to be meet in detail on all major road construction.

So not only are our business practices crap, but so is our governmental regulation?

Having bad standards that ensure future outlays so the expenditures can later be pointed to as economic growth is more or less what appears to happen in a lot of places these days.

Doing the same stupid stuff over and over again while some few people profit instead of finding better ways of doing things as standard practice is rather depressing.

You don’t know what you’re talking about. The standards laid out by the DOT’s are well documented and well done. Perhaps you should study them on your state DOT site. They are public domain.

You sure do draw some random and unsubstantiated conclusions. You have shown zero evidence that any of it is "crap". Zero evidence that any of them are substandard. The only thing that you may find depressing is based on conclusions you have convinced yourself of.

Saying "the same stupid stuff over and over again" you have made up in your own mind doesn't actually mean anything other than to yourself.

I have looked at the SCDs and other documents. Are you a civil engineer now? What are you basing the statement that they are "well done" on? Am I just supposed to take your word for it?

You could be right about me not knowing what I'm talking about (but probably aren't.) I know nothing about the lousy, pothole-filled roads that they are constantly repaving that I've driven on for years. Maybe in some places they are good. In Stark County, the reality often doesn't live up to the theoretical.

That's my frustration. All the theoretical ideas that get unceasing support with no respect for the reality of specific instances/experience. This country was founded on great sounding ideals. Unfortunately, the execution of those ideals is rather execrable. The "road to hell" is paved in good intentions. The best laid plans don't mean a whole heck of a lot when the rubber meets the road. (Eh, I'm running out of asphalt related aphorisms.)

I was a big ivory tower guy, yet real life experience has taught me that a lot of things don't necessarily work the way one was told in the classroom. Stating how something is supposed to work when that isn't how it is actually working would appear to be an exercise in self-deception. Unfortunately, I seem unable to coddle myself with comforting propaganda these days.

I don't find the theory of "That's not how it is where live" as any more plausible. I'm sure you can find isolated cases of what you are referring to but your posts seem to indicate you somehow think examples of how it is in your area is some widespread problem.

New home building is going up like crazy where I live but I'm well aware that isn't indicative of everywhere. There are certainly instances which include but are not limited to situations of corruption where certain contractors pay people off and use bribery to get contracts. I have no way of knowing if that is happening where you live or not. And yes, "exceptions are not zero" but you experience on a local level is no no way a gauge of something more wide spread.

I haven't always been here. I've moved around the world a fair bit. It seemed to me that the more things changed in the different places I went, the more they were the same.

This isn't the most recent article, but, as you brought up corruption, I'll put this here. I doubt things have improved much since it was written. Corruption in the US-Report

You have your mind made up despite a lack of substantial evidence to support it. There is nothing you have posted that is indicative of anything on a wide scale. Antecdotal evidence isn't something that can be applied on a wide scale. When everything in the world is some grand scheme to someone there is nothing that can ever change their mind. I'll just leave it at that.

You have made up your mind despite evidence against it. I haven't "made up my mind" but only presented evidence that questions others unquestioning, blanket assertions.

Everything that goes against anything that you agree with, to you, seems to be an exception (which you seem to try to ignore.)

To me, an exception makes me wonder how solid the rule is.

Which is the more scientific approach? Ignoring evidence or asking questions? Is not asking questions the very basis of science?

That's great if you have actual evidence to the contrary with which to base your questions on. Anyone can just make up questions from left field. That's not really a thing.

I'll ask again. What financial benefit did scientists receive to promote man made climate change that they couldn't have gotten from the fossil fuel industry to cause them to that conclusion? You claimed your premise revolved around money but I have yet to see where money could or would have only flowed from only one side for scientists to reach their conclusions.

I'm not making up evidence from left field. I'm presenting anecdotal evidence that I have seen firsthand.

I never claimed it only flowed from one side. It can flow from anywhere. People have all sorts of opinions that they are willing to pay scientists to support. Scientists did get money from the fossil fuels industry to try to provide "evidence" against man made climate change. Scientists got paid by other entities to provide "evidence" that there was man made climate change. Scientists don't generally just get a blank check to research whatever. If a funding body likes the proposal scientists present, they fund it. If they don't, they don't. Funding is all too frequently tied to the expected results. That being the case, the results can be compromised, particularly if those scientists want more funding.

Evidence rather than innuendo please.

Have you ever applied for a grant?

I worked as a civil road and bridge designer for three different states with some of the largest engineering firms in the USA. I’m a certified Civil 3D cad expert and worked at Autodesk developing their Civil 3D software product for 6 years from 2005-2011.

I’m positive you have no clue what you’re talking about. But please continue. If the roads in your area are falling apart it’s because your local authorities aren’t following code by allowing contractors to cut corners.

It's entirely possible about them not following code. I think engineers (and scientists) believing that their ideas are always perfectly executed in reality is part of the problem. A decent percent of the time, a disconnect between what's supposed to happen and what actually happens seems to be the case.

Most of the time, the engineers that design the project aren't actually the ones doing the labor and maintenance on the project.

What you draw with CAD can be great. Executing it in the real world isn't always so straightforward. Have you ever done a startup and had to try to figure out how installers have screwed up your designs? It's a rather common occurrence.

Your unknowing assuredness and dismissing anything that impinges on your high opinion of yourself is aggravating as hell.

I'm sure I'm aggravating to you as well, but I admit I have flaws. Most things do, whether you want to admit it or not.

To answer your question and leave it at that. all projects I’ve worked on, and there’s been a lot, we built in stages. Design, build, and as-built Cad drawings. The Build stage always had a never ending struggle with revisions.

Anyone else notice a problem with this?

And after I left a division of GM about 25-30 years ago, I worked with 2 consulting firms before I went into construction. We are a rather large construction firm that does commercial, industrial and on the other side of the office we have a division that builds highways and bridges and we have another department that is high voltage substations and some distribution. So I have been on both ends, both being one of the engineering firm that comes out to inspect the work and one of the worker bees (actually I am in an office position but do venture out to our jobs quite a bit)

The stuff I work on is mostly industrial but a lot of data centers and hospitals.

Everything we build is to local and federal codes and we have the consultants punch list, local inspectors and commissioning agents on most of the jobs I work on. The amount of turnover documents/as builts we have to turn in at the end of project would use up a couple trees (most all are now scanned and submitted electronically now). And then we get to start up/commissioning-where they test pretty much every single piece of equipment we install and check every setting/output that the manufacture/specifier includes in the bid documents/submittals.

Asphalt roads have an "expected lifespan" of ~18 years. Yet, asphalt roads frequently have problems before they get anywhere close to that timeframe. Shoddy is probably not the best descriptor, but my word choice was influenced by time spent dodging potholes and waiting in/going around roadwork.

There's the theoretical and there's the actual. In an ideal scenario, the plans, codes, drawings, etc are great. Actual situations rarely reflect the ideal scenario. I don't know how one would get the drawings, plans, "proposals," etc to better reflect their actual circumstances and usages, but it seems, that as things currently work in practice, there is a disconnect between how long things are supposed to last and how long they actually last. There are undoubtedly reasons for that. Still presenting the best case in a proposal and the actual product falling understandably short of that leaves a feeling of "shoddiness."

Instead of finding better ways to deal with freeze/thaw cycles and heavy loads, we do the same things over and over again that don't live up to the theoretical ideal. Profit isn't a guaranteed result of research. Profit is pretty much guaranteed for those doing roadwork now, so there is little incentive for doing better.

What can I say? I seem to be an idealist. I'm turned off by our society's/economy's approach of profit over everything. Profit over progress. Profit over people. Profit over planet. Personally, profit seems like a bad priority-- especially over those three things.