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Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski sign contract extensions with the Browns

Executive Vice President of Football Operations and General Manager Andrew Berry and head coach Kevin Stefanski are here to stay.

The Browns announced that Berry and Stefanski have signed contract extensions.

"We are incredibly fortunate to have Kevin Stefanski and Andrew Berry leading the Cleveland Browns," Cleveland Browns Managing and Principal Partners Dee and Jimmy Haslam said. "Since the day they were hired, each has worked tirelessly to help the Cleveland Browns win. We are proud of what they and the team have achieved, but Kevin and Andrew would be the first to say that Browns fans deserve even more. Their leadership, collaborative approach, and ability to overcome obstacles bode well for the future of this franchise.

"Last season was a prime example," Dee and Jimmy Haslam continued. "Despite facing multiple player injuries and using five different starting quarterbacks, Andrew and his staff built a roster that adapted well, while Kevin and his staff led the team to its second playoff appearance in four years, earning Coach of the Year honors for the second time in that period. They are two of the brightest people we know, and selfless people who only care about what is best for the Cleveland Browns. We are thrilled that Kevin and Andrew will remain with the team for the future."

Berry and Stefanski were first hired by the Browns in 2020, and since then, the Browns have a record of 37-30 (.552) — the highest winning percentage for the team over a four-year stretch since 1986-89. As an organization, they have seen a level of success not seen in some time. In their first season at the helm in 2020, the pair helped the team to its first playoff appearance since 2002 and first playoff victory in 26 years.
The Browns also finished the 2023 season with an 11-6 record and another trip to the postseason. The 11 regular season wins tied for second-most in team history, trailing only the 1986 team, which had 12 wins. Following the 2023 season, Stefanski (2020 and 2023) joined Pro Football Hall of Famer Paul Brown (1951 and 1953) as the only coaches in team history to record multiple seasons with at least 11 regular season wins.
Cleveland dominated at home during the 2023 season, as the Browns finished with an 8-1 record at Cleveland Browns Stadium and set a team record for wins at home. Since 2020, the Browns are 24-10 (.706) at Cleveland Browns Stadium.

The Browns established a prominent run game over the last four years, as they are third in the NFL with an average of 139.6 rushing yards per game since 2020. Yet they've also developed a blend of the run and pass game as well. During the Browns 77-year history, the team has surpassed 6,000 scrimmage yards in a single season just seven times; under Stefanski, the Browns have reached that mark in all four seasons.

Cleveland had seven players selected to the Pro Bowl for the 2023 season, the club's most since sending eight in 1988. During his tenue, Berry has inked five of the players — G Joel Bitonio, DE Myles Garrett, TE David Njoku, G Wyatt Teller and CB Denzel Ward — to contract extensions, while WR Amari Cooper was acquired via trade in 2022 and LB Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah was a second-round draft pick in 2021.

Berry also added the contract extensions of WR Jerry Jeudy – who the Browns acquired in a trade with the Broncos in March – and S Grant Delpit – who was drafted by the Browns in the second round of the 2020 NFL Draft.
Stefanski earned accolades of his own over his first four years as a head coach. He was named the Coach of the Year in 2020 and in 2023 and joined Forrest Gregg (1976) as the second coach in franchise history to earn the honor.
Under the first four years of Berry and Stefanski's leadership, the Browns have turned the page to a new chapter of history within the organization. Now, with the extensions in place, they are poised to lead the Browns through the next chapter of the organization's storied history.

"Kevin, the way that he was able to lead and manage through challenges in adversity this year was absolutely phenomenal," Berry said in his end-of-season press conference on Jan. 22. "And we have a smart, adaptable, emotionally intelligent leader who the crazy part is, he's not even close to his ceiling. And I know that our organization is in really good hands both now and for the foreseeable future with him."

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/new...sign-contract-extensions-with-the-browns


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...does it say how long somewhere?


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No.

I bet those details are soon to come.


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I for one am really happy about this.

They have done a good job and are deserving.

What I like is their approach to their jobs. They are collaborative. They are also open to learning. They both are willing to take corrective measures.

This is good for the Browns.

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I felt relatively sure this was going to happen but seeing it as a done deal puts any possible question marks to rest. Nothing makes 100% sure the deal is done until the deal is signed on the dotted line. Happy that this is done and there is one more thing behind us now.


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Great news now that it is official.

Also, likely safe to assume that DePo was or will be extended as well since he, Berry and Stefanski's contracts were all set to end at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Milk Man
Great news now that it is official.

Also, likely safe to assume that DePo was or will be extended as well since he, Berry and Stefanski's contracts were all set to end at the same time.

Or DePo rides off into the sunset "my work here is done" style?


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Browns QB Joe Flacco earns AP NFL 2023 Comeback Player of the Year honors...The one person the Browns forgot to mention.

Berry and Stefanski should be able to build upon the Browns 2023 successes now that they will have their star QB back which should make it easier to take our team to the next level...deep into the playoffs with a legitimate shot at playing in the Super Bowl.

The fans and media will have high expectations...


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Originally Posted by mac
Browns QB Joe Flacco earns AP NFL 2023 Comeback Player of the Year honors...The one person the Browns forgot to mention.

Berry and Stefanski should be able to build upon the Browns 2023 successes now that they will have their star QB back which should make it easier to take our team to the next level...deep into the playoffs with a legitimate shot at playing in the Super Bowl.

The fans and media will have high expectations...

This must be a tough day for you seeing this news. Only to be worse if they announced a DePo extension as well.

Hang in there.


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I'm pretty sure they are trying to wrap up Paul Depodesta's contract to keep all 3 of them on the same cycle.


That's what we did back in 2021 when we got them on the same cycle.


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Congrats Berry/Stef! So happy to see it

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LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...

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You gain stability through coaching and GM continuity.

Regime change of course can be necessary. However, continuity allows the team to be custom built. Free agency and the draft can be decided upon by scheme fit and locker room fit.

That is important. It is how you can sustain success if you have the right group of personnel.

Signing Berry and KS to an extension gives us the best chance to succeed. There is no such thing as perfection only striving for perfection.

I am excited about the Browns. It has taken a long time to reach this point.

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great to see this. continuity should bode us browns fans well. next is great QB play.


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Right!!! Big mistake!! Both should be gone!!!! notallthere willynilly

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Originally Posted by superbowldogg
I'm pretty sure they are trying to wrap up Paul Depodesta's contract to keep all 3 of them on the same cycle.


That's what we did back in 2021 when we got them on the same cycle.

I'm sure.

DePo is just taking longer because he's still crunching the numbers and has yet to inform Haslam of what his contract should be.


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Originally Posted by superbowldogg
I'm pretty sure they are trying to wrap up Paul Depodesta's contract to keep all 3 of them on the same cycle.


That's what we did back in 2021 when we got them on the same cycle.

Probably. His contract came later last time.

That said, maybe not if he was to ride off as someone else mentioned.

He basically steered the team in to the coach and probably advised to hire Berry. He has set guardrails that have helped lead to a solid roster. He has set up a solid analytics department that runs deep in the office.

Maybe he feels his work is done?


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On March 18, 2022, DePodesta helped to facilitate a controversial trade for Deshaun Watson. Watson and the Texans' 2024 sixth-round draft pick were traded to the Cleveland Browns in exchange for the Browns' first-round draft picks in 2022, 2023, and 2024, as well as the Browns' third-round pick in 2023 and fourth-round picks in 2022 and 2024. As part of the trade, Watson signed a new, fully guaranteed, five-year, $230 million deal with the Browns, making it the largest contract and most guaranteed money in NFL history.

link


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Not sure why you're posting this here, mac?


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Originally Posted by Hammer
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...

I stand by the following two statements…

1. I don’t think Stefanski is as good a play caller as people think. I think he’s a very good play designer. Play calling is something different.

2. I’m happy with the extensions for both Stefanski and Berry. Continuity feels good. The Browns are not a laughing stock. I think we have a good organization in place.

Now let’s win a division! Is Stefanski the first ever four year coach to get an extension without ever winning a division title? “In appreciation of always finishing third or worst in your division, we’d like you to stick around for four more years.”


LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Originally Posted by FATE
Not sure why you're posting this here, mac?

Why not post Depo's accomplishments here.?

Peen posted some of Depo's accomplishments to justify a contract extension but peen forgot about what might be one of Depo's greatest decisions..making the deal with the Texans for Watson.

I was just following the theme of the conversation.


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Originally Posted by mac
Originally Posted by FATE
Not sure why you're posting this here, mac?

Why not post Depo's accomplishments here.?

Peen posted some of Depo's accomplishments to justify a contract extension but peen forgot about what might be one of Depo's greatest decisions..making the deal with the Texans for Watson.

I was just following the theme of the conversation.

Even if that deal does not work out at least he tried to win. How many Cleveland teams over the years don't make the big move to try to win big. This FO did. Baker was never going to win anything. They knew that. What we do know if that doesn't work out Watson will not be here in a couple years and this FO will swing for the fences when they can. I have no issue at all trying to win.


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Originally Posted by Rishuz
1. I don’t think Stefanski is as good a play caller as people think. I think he’s a very good play designer. Play calling is something different.

I'll just point out that getting players (often backups last year) to execute play calls isn't really play calling either. A coach doesn't call the outcome.

Did a play not work because of the call or did someone mess up (wrong assignment/read)/miss a throw/get beat (other team made a play)/fall down (things happen)? Did it look like a play was there to be made if something hadn't gone wrong? Other teams' players get paid, too, and DCs don't get hired for being awful play callers. I'm not sure some people "fully" realize how hard it is to win with backup QBs (and RBs and OL) and how thin the margins are.

I think he is more good than bad as a play caller. How good that is is certainly debatable.


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I’ve hated plenty of coaching and GM hires but I like the Ski & Berry hires and I’m glad it’s worked out so far. Still need to see what comes of the DW trade but the team overall is one to watch since the day they arrived.

I know it’s an unpopular take in some quarters (Vers and I had a lot of back and forth on this) but I just really prefer exceptionally smart people with a proven track record of difficult personal accomplishments for complex, dynamic jobs. It doesn’t always work out of course and we all love the story of a hard luck savants or worker bees who just grind up through the ranks but I’ll take my odds with the guy who managed to play football and still graduate from Harvard with a bachelors in Econ and a masters in computer science in 3 years to manage my team. And the guy who also graduated as an all Ivy League player and has coached just about every offensive position group at the pro level to coach the team.

I really love each’s professional demeanor and that they don’t get worked up by momentary crap. So many fans want hot headed bulls for coaches that visibly reflect their own anxiety and frustration but the best ones usually stay cool and calculated under fire. When coaches start losing their cool in adversity, the team is usually not far behind.

A lots riding on this year, mostly for DW. And the verdict will mostly be in on the trade if he’s anything short of ‘decent’. If he’s decent to good most of the year (not even considering elite), this team could go deep. The injury and recovery gods will have a big a say either way but I have more confidence in the roster and it being prepared to play on any given Sunday than just about any other time since 99.




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Even if that deal does not work out at least he tried to win. How many Cleveland teams over the years don't make the big move to try to win big. This FO did. Baker was never going to win anything. They knew that. What we do know if that doesn't work out Watson will not be here in a couple years and this FO will swing for the fences when they can. I have no issue at all trying to win.

I agree with your point except for the bolded part.

This is where the DW trade discussion begins to unravel. The discussion should be about DW and HIS play and what we gave up to get him...and when that point looks weak, the discussion turns to some fanciful projection of what the previous QB could or couldn't do.

BM has 2x the number of playoff wins as both DW and Kirk Cousins. BM has the same number of playoff wins as Lamar Jackson. BM took US to the playoffs the year before his shoulder got destroyed and was one Rashard Higgins fumble or Chad Henne jailbreak away from getting to the AFC Championship game. He won his division in what was supposed to be a re-building year AND his 2nd playoff game against a Super Bowl favorite Eagles. The bolded point above ^ is factually and statistically incorrect.

Those who evaluated the QB position projected that DW would be a QB to take us deep into the playoffs. He still may...even while never having done so before. For me, evaluating the trade has nothing to do with BM or whatever the team thought of him. It's about DW and HIS play versus what we gave up to get him. So far, that has been a failure.

If one wants to have a separate discussion about which QB is better - BM or DW - then so be it. If one happens to think DW is the better QB...be sure to avoid discussing playoff wins and division titles.

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Originally Posted by Day of the Dawg
Even if that deal does not work out at least he tried to win.

I have heard that a lot. If you try and fail is that a sign of success or failure?

I'm not saying the deal will fail. There's still three years to go with which to determine that. But every trade and every draft pick made in the NFL, especially first round draft picks, all 32 GM's are "trying to win" with their decisions. Some succeed and some fail. It sounds as if you are almost advocating a participation trophy for trying. That's not how any of this works.

If this fails it will be no less of a failure than drafting Johnny Football. In both cases people were trying to make decisions to help the Browns win. If this decision fails the end result will be no different. With the exception that if this fails it will come at a much higher cost.


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Originally Posted by mac
Originally Posted by FATE
Not sure why you're posting this here, mac?

Why not post Depo's accomplishments here.?

Peen posted some of Depo's accomplishments to justify a contract extension but peen forgot about what might be one of Depo's greatest decisions..making the deal with the Texans for Watson.

I was just following the theme of the conversation.

Ahhh. Depodesta "did the deal" to bring Watson here. thumbsup


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Originally Posted by FATE
Originally Posted by mac
Originally Posted by FATE
Not sure why you're posting this here, mac?

Why not post Depo's accomplishments here.?

Peen posted some of Depo's accomplishments to justify a contract extension but peen forgot about what might be one of Depo's greatest decisions..making the deal with the Texans for Watson.

I was just following the theme of the conversation.

Ahhh. Depodesta "did the deal" to bring Watson here. thumbsup

From what I heard (from someone in the know) the reason we have Watson is Haslam. Haslam wanted him and made sure Berry brought him here.


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Yeah, I think it's pretty safe to say that Haslam was the one laying down the biggest deal in NFL history. Especially since he had to put $250 million in escrow to get it done. But who knows, maybe DePo did the deal and just sent him an email. rofl


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LOL!


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Originally Posted by mac
On March 18, 2022, DePodesta helped to facilitate a controversial trade for Deshaun Watson. Watson and the Texans' 2024 sixth-round draft pick were traded to the Cleveland Browns in exchange for the Browns' first-round draft picks in 2022, 2023, and 2024, as well as the Browns' third-round pick in 2023 and fourth-round picks in 2022 and 2024. As part of the trade, Watson signed a new, fully guaranteed, five-year, $230 million deal with the Browns, making it the largest contract and most guaranteed money in NFL history.

link

Of course he did.

Unlike you I don't think he was the one with any final decision. I think everybody bought in.

Why are you posting up a Wiki link?


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Originally Posted by FATE
Yeah, I think it's pretty safe to say that Haslam was the one laying down the biggest deal in NFL history. Especially since he had to put $250 million in escrow to get it done. But who knows, maybe DePo did the deal and just sent him an email. rofl

Actually, it was a fax that he was going to claim didn't go thru. But little did he know, Sashi fixed the fax machine before he left.


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Originally Posted by Day of the Dawg
Originally Posted by mac
Originally Posted by FATE
Not sure why you're posting this here, mac?

Why not post Depo's accomplishments here.?

Peen posted some of Depo's accomplishments to justify a contract extension but peen forgot about what might be one of Depo's greatest decisions..making the deal with the Texans for Watson.

I was just following the theme of the conversation.

Even if that deal does not work out at least he tried to win. How many Cleveland teams over the years don't make the big move to try to win big. This FO did. Baker was never going to win anything. They knew that. What we do know if that doesn't work out Watson will not be here in a couple years and this FO will swing for the fences when they can. I have no issue at all trying to win.

Day of the Dawg...

...It's sad, you resort to "misinformation" about Mayfield ("Baker was never going to win anything.") in order to justify Depo's decision to make the deal for Watson.

In Mayfield's first season starting for Tampa he lead them to the playoffs, TB winning the NFL South Division.
...Mayfield lead TB to a Wild Card win (30-9) over the Eagles.
...TB lost the Division game against Detroit (31-23).

Just another example of Depo's ability to judge QB talent.

Now we wait for Watson to produce according to his contract. I support Watson knowing this team is capable of playoff level play..proven by Flacco and the performance
of the team, going 4-1 in their push to make the 2023 playoffs.


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in order to justify Depo's decision to make the deal for Watson.

Lolz.


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What evidence do you have Depo was behind this? We have no idea who first came up with the idea. Nor do we know what went on behind closed doors. What we do know is who made the ultimate decision. Haslam. The fact he signs the checks shows he made the ultimate decision. In actuality I've never seen anywhere that Depo is involved with major personnel decisions. That's the job of the GM and his staff. Depo has always been known mainly as a numbers guy. It seems as though your reaching to a major conclusion here.


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Mac, what you're saying about Baker is true, but he is playing in a weak division. When he got the ball back against Detroit for Tampa's last drive I said to friends that Baker will throw an INT. 2nd throw he did game over just like more than a few times with us. I like Baker and have no axes to grind over him, but I really feel as most of our fans do, he could not lead us to a SB and our FO obviously felt the same way. Let's see how the next 3 years pan out to reach a definitive result and then we all can make our assessments. By the way and it's JMO, Spencer Rattler has Baker Mayfield written all over him. Again, JMO

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I agree with you about waiting things out and seeing how it goes over the next three years. Only then can we know how this thing plays out.

And I don't really disagree with you that Baker plays in a much weaker division than the AFC North. But there is one thing that's undeniable. To this point over the past two seasons Baker has done more than watson.

In 2023 Baker threw for just over 4k yards while completing 64.3% of his passes with 28 td's and 10 int's. No matter how anyone slices it those are some damned fine numbers.

The story is still yet to be written but that doesn't change where things stand at this juncture.


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Rotflmfao. Still making up stories I see rolleyes


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Agreed.

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I am sure that Depo was involved in the Watson discussion, but he didn't make any decisions any more than anybody else involved.

Depo's value to the team and the others in management is he provides historical and projected data to those people and is probably heavily involved in cap management. He is also a valued confidant to ownership.

He is the navigator, not the captain.


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Originally Posted by Pdawg
From what I heard (from someone in the know) the reason we have Watson is Haslam. Haslam wanted him and made sure Berry brought him here.

I actually find this surprising. That would mean the Haslams were not fond of Baker which I don’t think was the case.

More than likely the way it played out was Berry and Co. did their due diligence and got Haslam all spun up about the possibility of Watson here. Once they got Haslam spun up about it and once they got removed from consideration then I bet Haslam might of interjected and probably asked what it would take to get it done. Then made it happen.

But the way you wrote this pdawg kind of implies that Haslam was behind the whole thing. I just can’t fathom that’s the way it went down.


LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
What evidence do you have Depo was behind this? We have no idea who first came up with the idea. Nor do we know what went on behind closed doors. What we do know is who made the ultimate decision. Haslam. The fact he signs the checks shows he made the ultimate decision. In actuality I've never seen anywhere that Depo is involved with major personnel decisions. That's the job of the GM and his staff. Depo has always been known mainly as a numbers guy. It seems as though your reaching to a major conclusion here.




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Originally Posted by mac
On March 18, 2022, DePodesta helped to facilitate a controversial trade for Deshaun Watson. Watson and the Texans' 2024 sixth-round draft pick were traded to the Cleveland Browns in exchange for the Browns' first-round draft picks in 2022, 2023, and 2024, as well as the Browns' third-round pick in 2023 and fourth-round picks in 2022 and 2024. As part of the trade, Watson signed a new, fully guaranteed, five-year, $230 million deal with the Browns, making it the largest contract and most guaranteed money in NFL history.

link


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Just to make sure the Dawgs understand what I posted concerning Depo's involvement in the Watson trade, I posted it again...hopefully the "goal posts" won't start moving.

Haslam was involved, that I'm sure of..it was his money that paid for the deal.

If the Watson deal flops, I'm sure that Haslam would be ok with Depo's name being used as the person responsible for the trade.

The record of the Browns "brain trust" concerning their ability to judge QB talent is a matter of record.

But let's be clear about my support for Watson...I want him to return to his previous form (2018, 2019, 2020). If Watson is able to lead the Browns to the playoffs..the trade will be afterthought. Watson doesn't need to turn in MVP type play, imo...just execute the Browns offense well enough to win.


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It seems you don't understand what "helped to facilitate it" means. To facilitate means to make something easier. That's far different from the assertions you're making.

You already moved the goal posts by claiming "helped to facilitate" means something it doesn't.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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The airplane that took them down to meet with Watson also facilitated the deal. As did the copy room that was printing out the contract... and the pen Watson used to sign it.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Originally Posted by oobernoober
The airplane that took them down to meet with Watson also facilitated the deal. As did the copy room that was printing out the contract... and the pen Watson used to sign it.

Now you're listing some of the items Depo planted to help facilitate the crime.


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I'm late here, but this is well deserved and a no brainer


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted by Dawgs4Life
I'm late here, but this is well deserved and a no brainer

Maybe it’s time for this opinion to be up for discussion again? (Not a personal rant against you Dawgs4Life but from a wider perspective)

The first time I had a reason to question these guys decision makings was how they handled Baker when he got injured. To call it incompetence and childish behavior is an understatement. (and that goes for all three of them)

The second time was when they signed Watson.

The red warning flags was blinking all the way until he signed but their naivety and inexperience probably got them blindsided to be part of a deal that will probably soon be labeled as on of the worst trade in the NFL history.

Have these two improved this organization since 2020 if we factor the resources that they have gotten to their disposal?

Maybe an unpopular view but I expect a Tripp Trapp Trull scenario when the season is over if we don’t turn this over and go to the playoffs.

Stefanski will probably be the first scapegoat.
Berry maybe has luck but I expect him going too and as so as the owners find a suitable financial solution then Watson will finally have his sought out happy ending.

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We can speculate but we will never know.

One piece of logic stands.

Haslam is the guy who agreed to the contract. He signs the checks.

IMO if the decision is made to move on from DW. I think KS and AB should remain.

Are they perfect? Of course not. Should Shanahan be fired because the Niners are 1-2? There are a load of knee jerk reactions after every loss. I think it is BS.

If we have to reload at quarterback so be it. We took a swing at DW. It didn't work.

That does not mean that KS/AB are bad at their jobs.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
We can speculate but we will never know.

One piece of logic stands.

Haslam is the guy who agreed to the contract. He signs the checks.

IMO if the decision is made to move on from DW. I think KS and AB should remain.

Are they perfect? Of course not. Should Shanahan be fired because the Niners are 1-2? There are a load of knee jerk reactions after every loss. I think it is BS.

If we have to reload at quarterback so be it. We took a swing at DW. It didn't work.

That does not mean that KS/AB are bad at their jobs.



$230m guaranteed isn’t a “swing”.

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Haslam is the guy who agreed to the contract. He signs the checks.

This QB mess belongs to Jimmy Haslam and his right hand man, the strategist.

Stefanski and Berry are simply doing their best to make things work.


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Originally Posted by mac
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Haslam is the guy who agreed to the contract. He signs the checks.

This QB mess belongs to Jimmy Haslam and his right hand man, the strategist.

Stefanski and Berry are simply doing their best to make things work.

What you’re doing, intentionally or probably unintentionally, is to make us believe that Berry and Stefanski didn’t have authority and integrity enough to vote against if they thought that Watson was the wrong choice.

So what do you believe?

The Haslam’s is exclusively making all the decisions by themselves without consulting his two powerless sidekicks or maybe, just maybe, that all of the organization’s important decision makers was onboard when they decided to pay Watson guaranteed money.

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Originally Posted by Floquinho
Originally Posted by mac
Quote
Haslam is the guy who agreed to the contract. He signs the checks.

This QB mess belongs to Jimmy Haslam and his right hand man, the strategist.

Stefanski and Berry are simply doing their best to make things work.

What you’re doing, intentionally or probably unintentionally, is to make us believe that Berry and Stefanski didn’t have authority and integrity enough to vote against if they thought that Watson was the wrong choice.

So what do you believe?

The Haslam’s is exclusively making all the decisions by themselves without consulting his two powerless sidekicks or maybe, just maybe, that all of the organization’s important decision makers was onboard when they decided to pay Watson guaranteed money.

I'd go with something in between.

Haslams said get it done and Berry set a budget. Kevin was likely on board due to the Baker stuff, I don't think they meshed. Once Watson "nah" to the offer the rich guy decided he would buy his way back in and blew the budget, which is his right to do. Whether he bought a lemon or the sale created a lemon is something we can debate but will never really know since we can't look into alternate universes.

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I don't think Haslam pushed for Watson at all, neither did Depo.. The move doesn't fit with an owner concerned with his image, and the analytics don't fit for Depo. This was 100 Berry and KS selling it to Haslam


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Originally Posted by leadtheway
I don't think Haslam pushed for Watson at all, neither did Depo.. The move doesn't fit with an owner concerned with his image, and the analytics don't fit for Depo. This was 100 Berry and KS selling it to Haslam

I disagree strongly on Depo - Watson was an analytics wet dream with some of his stats in his best years in HOU. We got them quoted to us repeatedly when the trade was made to tell us what a stud we were getting any time posters expressed doubt over the trade. And based on the front office being tight and on board and all on the same page, I have to think the decision was made jointly and all 4 own it.


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A decision of the magnitude of making that trade automatically goes to the owner.

There is no way on this earth that given all the circumstances involved that Haslam is not the decision maker.

Start with the contract $230 guaranteed. The first contract that is like that.

Second the image of the organization making a trade for a player facing suspension for a year. The charges against DW were of a nature that it was a known fact that the fan base would be split on. Remember women and children go to games. Haslam knew how unpopular this could be.

Third the trade itself.

The Texans received a 2022 first-round pick (No. 13 overall), 2023 and 2024 first-round picks, a 2022 fourth-round choice (No. 107), a third-round pick in 2023 and a fourth-round pick in 2024.

Given all the factors there is no way Haslam did not make the final decision.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
A decision of the magnitude of making that trade automatically goes to the owner.

There is no way on this earth that given all the circumstances involved that Haslam is not the decision maker.

Start with the contract $230 guaranteed. The first contract that is like that.

Second the image of the organization making a trade for a player facing suspension for a year. The charges against DW were of a nature that it was a known fact that the fan base would be split on. Remember women and children go to games. Haslam knew how unpopular this could be.

Third the trade itself.

The Texans received a 2022 first-round pick (No. 13 overall), 2023 and 2024 first-round picks, a 2022 fourth-round choice (No. 107), a third-round pick in 2023 and a fourth-round pick in 2024.

Given all the factors there is no way Haslam did not make the final decision.
never said he didn't have final say, you made it sound like it was his idea. Big difference. This was KS/Berry selling it to Haslam and haslam agreeing to it


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Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by leadtheway
I don't think Haslam pushed for Watson at all, neither did Depo.. The move doesn't fit with an owner concerned with his image, and the analytics don't fit for Depo. This was 100 Berry and KS selling it to Haslam

I disagree strongly on Depo - Watson was an analytics wet dream with some of his stats in his best years in HOU. We got them quoted to us repeatedly when the trade was made to tell us what a stud we were getting any time posters expressed doubt over the trade. And based on the front office being tight and on board and all on the same page, I have to think the decision was made jointly and all 4 own it.
His stats were good, but stats for what? Two vastly different style of offense, would the same stats matter, Now I never said all 4 didn't have some hand in it, I'm just saying it didn't start at the top and go down. I still say this was a Berry/KS pick and they brought it up the chain and sold it


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j/c

I can't see any way where the move for Watson is made without a strong approval from ownership (if not an edict)

I can't imagine being a GM and urging us to sign him, even despite his on the field play


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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There is no doubt that AB who is in charge of personnel was not involved.

KS to a much lesser degree.

But the deal never happens without Haslam approval.

Honestly, I do not care at this point. The organization made the deal.

The reasons were obvious given the standing at that time with Baker.

I fault nobody except DW.

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we've reached the point (if we hadn't already) where the organization needs to just cut bait with him IMO. The fans, in general, hate him. It seems like the players don't believe in him ... nor does he believe in himself.

Our offense has been so bad


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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jc...

Something to think about...this wasn't the only time that Haslam took charge of securing what he thought was the Browns next franchise QB.

Remember this..."You can't even make this type of stuff up.

Following the Cleveland Brown's pick of Johnny Manziel, ESPN reporter Sal Paolantonio stated that Browns' owner Jimmy Haslam was convinced by a homeless person to draft the Texas A&M quarterback."

link




Last edited by mac; 09/25/24 11:04 AM.

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Trying to make this about blaming AB/KS is like cutting your nose off to spite your face.

It was a big risk that the organization rightly made.

Just because Watson has been a failure is not a reason to go looking for a new head coach and GM.

If DW was playing at a top ten level. There would be no head coach or GM talk at all.


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Originally Posted by leadtheway
I still say this was a Berry/KS pick and they brought it up the chain and sold it

Based on what? The man with the most to gain in all of this was Haslam. Bringing a consistent winner to Cleveland and a possible Super Bowl would line his pockets more than anyone. Just selling the fan base the Browns had a shot at a SB with watson at QB would line his pockets. The one consistent thing people can do to find the answer to a question is follow the money.


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Originally Posted by bonefish
Trying to make this about blaming AB/KS is like cutting your nose off to spite your face.

It was a big risk that the organization rightly made.

Just because Watson has been a failure is not a reason to go looking for a new head coach and GM.

If DW was playing at a top ten level. There would be no head coach or GM talk at all.



The key word in your argumentation is ‘big risk’ and so far the “big risk” has been a total failure.
That alone should tell you that the risk wasn’t worth taking if you consider all the negative factors that surrounded Watson at the time he signed the contract.

If DSW had no history's of bad behaviors, no history of conflicts with his former employer and no legal issues then maybe it would be a risk worth taking.

An unexpected injury is something that’s out of our control but with all the negative luggage that followed Watson it wasn’t a “big risk”, it was a stupid and irresponsible decision who seemed to be endorsed by two naive leaders who didn’t do a deep enough due diligence and who didn’t use their common sense.

Any sensible leader with experience would have said no to guaranteed money, especially 230m over 5 years.

That itself, together with this seasons negative trend of bad results, is why some of us are questioning Berry and Ski’s competence.

DW isn’t playing at a top ten level as you probably is aware of so that’s why this discussion is relevant.
My opinion is that making such a huge investment and not improving the results must came with consequences.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
Trying to make this about blaming AB/KS is like cutting your nose off to spite your face.

It was a big risk that the organization rightly made.

Just because Watson has been a failure is not a reason to go looking for a new head coach and GM.

If DW was playing at a top ten level. There would be no head coach or GM talk at all.




bone...I agree...any attempt to lay the blame for this Watson debacle onto HC Stefanski or GM Berry would be nothing more than a successful search by those at the very top of the Browns franchise to find their scapegoats for the mess they manufactured.

It's about time that those at the top of the Browns franchise accept their responsibility as the owner and chief strategist.



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Have Haslam fire himself.

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Originally Posted by mac
Originally Posted by bonefish
Trying to make this about blaming AB/KS is like cutting your nose off to spite your face.

It was a big risk that the organization rightly made.

Just because Watson has been a failure is not a reason to go looking for a new head coach and GM.

If DW was playing at a top ten level. There would be no head coach or GM talk at all.




bone...I agree...any attempt to lay the blame for this Watson debacle onto HC Stefanski or GM Berry would be nothing more than a successful search by those at the very top of the Browns franchise to find their scapegoats for the mess they manufactured.

It's about time that those at the top of the Browns franchise accept their responsibility as the owner and chief strategist.


I'm not sure you're totally familiar with how it work in the corporate world because any crucial decision involving almost 25% of future outgoing expensives inside such a big organization doesn't work the way you two think.
Off course the owners have the final say regarding signing the check, and that goes without saying because the franchise at that time needed a financial injection from the outside to cover the escrow, but it doesn't mean that it wasn't a joint decision involving ALL senior figures inside the organization.

Do you really think that the Haslams is signing the NFL's most expensive contract ever and let two key figures inside the organization execute the decision if they're not sure that all senior figures is totally comfortable with the situation and 100% committed to the future.
Honestly my friends?


Remember the press conference when Berry was publicly defending Watson in front of the whole world and Ski was trying to talk football in a situation when nearly nobody cared.
Do you two really think that any NFL owner would let this happen without knowing that everybody on that stage is fully commited and part of the Browns future?

You can be 100% sure of that it was a mutual decision that required DePodesta, Berry and Stefanski's approval.
Otherwise the Browns would have hired a new GM and a new HC to make sure that everybody walked in the same direction long before they took at decision.

You can probably say a lot about the owners, but you can be sure that their lawyers and financial advisers would never advised them to finalize such a big deal without total consensus.

The scapegoats will not be the owners. That I'm sure about.

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Owners do not make scapegoats of themselves.

"DePodesta, Berry and Stefanski's approval?"

Owners do not need approval from employees.

Agreement? Yes, agreement is nice but not required.

The chain of command is Owner> GM > HC.

Andrew Berry has responsibility for the roster. I am sure he consults with KS. However, KS's responsibility is coaching the players that the GM puts on the roster.

The decision to make the DW trade is not a normal personnel decision. It is not like signing a free agent. Or, making a decision on a draft pick.

It crosses the border because of the money and in this case the integrity and image of the team.

At this point what does it matter? The organization made the deal. I could care less about who fans want to blame.

What I care about is finding a quarterback who can lead a team to a Championship. Nothing else means a thing to me.

Now we are back in the quarterback hunt. Draft picks takes years if you are lucky enough to be right. Free agents and trades are long shots. They are quarterbacks others gave up on.

I am an old man. Next year or the year after is no guarantee. This is the last place I wanted to be in at the start of this season.

The Watson deal fell apart because DW fell apart. At this point IMO Winston should start. IMO he gives the team a better chance to win.

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Just to continue if I put myself in Berry and Stefanski’s shoes and they had concerns then they probably buried such thoughts immediately when Baker publicly informed the Browns that he was not interested going back. Just to clarify my thoughts what’s happen next is totally understandable from both the Browns and Baker.

Of course Berry and Ski are smart enough to understand that there was serious concerns regarding Watsons situation but what they say in public and what they think inside their own bedroom is two different things.

Both have a career to think about and in such situations they immediately have to pick side so they don’t raise concerns about their commitment.

What I think happened was that when Watson’s camp was willing to accept the offer (guaranteed money) both the owners and the Browns decision makers was willing to cut some corners and gamble even if they had concerns. Maybe their initial due diligence on Watson the player wasn’t deep enough and didn’t cover all potential risks that followed signing a free floating freestyle QB. (this is my definition of his style of play)

From what I can see, and you can correct me if you think I’m wrong, he seems to be a player who makes his best plays on instincts and reaction.
That’s not Stefanski’s way of calling plays.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
Owners do not make scapegoats of themselves.

"DePodesta, Berry and Stefanski's approval?"

Owners do not need approval from employees.

Agreement? Yes, agreement is nice but not required.

The chain of command is Owner> GM > HC.

Andrew Berry has responsibility for the roster. I am sure he consults with KS. However, KS's responsibility is coaching the players that the GM puts on the roster.

The decision to make the DW trade is not a normal personnel decision. It is not like signing a free agent. Or, making a decision on a draft pick.

It crosses the border because of the money and in this case the integrity and image of the team.

At this point what does it matter? The organization made the deal. I could care less about who fans want to blame.

What I care about is finding a quarterback who can lead a team to a Championship. Nothing else means a thing to me.

Now we are back in the quarterback hunt. Draft picks takes years if you are lucky enough to be right. Free agents and trades are long shots. They are quarterbacks others gave up on.

I am an old man. Next year or the year after is no guarantee. This is the last place I wanted to be in at the start of this season.

The Watson deal fell apart because DW fell apart. At this point IMO Winston should start. IMO he gives the team a better chance to win.

I totally understand your thoughts so apologies for my long rant. Winning is everything and when you get older you don’t care and how even if Watson isn’t my cup of tea. Peace my friend and hope your health will be with you for many more years.

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I fully understand what Bone is saying. I’m not 70 yet but i’m just a few years away. I’ve been a diehard fan since 1967. I’m starting to realize that I’ll never see my Browns in a Super Bowl. Heck the way things are going I might never see them win the North. Sad 😞

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In 1964 I was in eleventh grade. We won the NFL Championship before it was called the Super Bowl.

Today I turned 77 years old. 77 trips around the sun.

I have been through it all with the Browns. Years of hope. Years of forgettable teams. Years of terrible teams.

I was hopeful this year. I usually am as a new season begins. Then the season begins and reality is revealed.

I expected so much more from DW. It is obvious he will never be what we all wanted. He now sits on the bench with a towel on his head. He is not engaged with coaches or teammates. His confidence is shot. He is hesitant on the field.

You cannot play quarterback in the NFL if you are questioning yourself.

I want to rip the band aid off and move on.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
In 1964 I was in eleventh grade. We won the NFL Championship before it was called the Super Bowl.

Today I turned 77 years old. 77 trips around the sun.

I have been through it all with the Browns. Years of hope. Years of forgettable teams. Years of terrible teams.

I was hopeful this year. I usually am as a new season begins. Then the season begins and reality is revealed.

I expected so much more from DW. It is obvious he will never be what we all wanted. He now sits on the bench with a towel on his head. He is not engaged with coaches or teammates. His confidence is shot. He is hesitant on the field.

You cannot play quarterback in the NFL if you are questioning yourself.

I want to rip the band aid off and move on.

Congratulations!
77 is a respectable age and I’m sure you have many more good years in front of you. Never lose faith.

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I know exactly when the Browns will win the Superbowl.

2 years after I die
It won't be the year after because they will want to make sure that I am dead and gone
They wouldn't want to take any chances


Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Thanks. I appreciate it.

Almost checked out March 24 had a massive heart attack. They had to shock me twice. Two stints installed. Fully recovered.

I never had any history of heart problems. I just had a physical. Very fit for my age. 15 years of lap swimming 900 to 1800 meters two and three times a week.

Low blood pressure. Not overweight. Good diet. Nothing wrong at all. Bam.

I am fine now but it gave me a clear sign. No guarantees anything can happen.

Right now I would be happy with a quarterback that I could be a fan of. Bernie was great.

Be competitive with some players you like to root for. I want a quarterback who can deliver wins with two minutes left and down a score. At least have the belief that your guy can do it. That feeling does not exist now.

It kills me how Mr. Irrelevant Brock Purdy is a baller. How some teams have lucked into a franchise guy. And it is luck.

Maybe we will find our guy. I sure hope so.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
Thanks. I appreciate it.

Almost checked out March 24 had a massive heart attack. They had to shock me twice. Two stints installed. Fully recovered.

I never had any history of heart problems. I just had a physical. Very fit for my age. 15 years of lap swimming 900 to 1800 meters two and three times a week.

Low blood pressure. Not overweight. Good diet. Nothing wrong at all. Bam.

I am fine now but it gave me a clear sign. No guarantees anything can happen.

Right now I would be happy with a quarterback that I could be a fan of. Bernie was great.

Be competitive with some players you like to root for. I want a quarterback who can deliver wins with two minutes left and down a score. At least have the belief that your guy can do it. That feeling does not exist now.

It kills me how Mr. Irrelevant Brock Purdy is a baller. How some teams have lucked into a franchise guy. And it is luck.

Maybe we will find our guy. I sure hope so.
Health is the most important thing we have in life but you seem to be a fighter so just continue doing your exercises and eat healthy, you will come a long way with that.

It’s so frustrated being a Browns supporter because most of the organizations problems is lack of leadership, discipline and accountability.
Bad results just don’t come flying without a reason. From what I see on game days and press conferences is that players and coaches seem to accept bad results without doing a deep dive into what’s is missing.

Go on record saying we need an adult in the QB room and then trade for Watson says it all. Honestly.
I don’t blame Deshaun, he’s fat and happy now. He doesn’t care any longer as long as he gets his pay check.
Isn’t that obvious.

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bonefish writes: In 1964 I was in eleventh grade. We won the NFL Championship before it was called the Super Bowl.

Today I turned 77 years old.

Happy Birthday Bonefish.. thumbsup


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Thanks it has been quite the ride.

Glad to be still in the game.

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Happy Birthday Bone and many more in good health 👍

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happy birthday buddy!


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Thanks everyone.

As the Grateful Dead song says.

"What a long strange trip it's been."

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Glad you are still around Bone


Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
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Almost checked out March 24 had a massive heart attack. They had to shock me twice. Two stints installed. Fully recovered.

I never had any history of heart problems. I just had a physical. Very fit for my age. 15 years of lap swimming 900 to 1800 meters two and three times a week.

Low blood pressure. Not overweight. Good diet. Nothing wrong at all. Bam.

I am fine now but it gave me a clear sign. No guarantees anything can happen.

Bone...some years back I remember you talking about your exercise routine..swimming laps..and I thought at the time..now this is a guy who's going to live a long time. But like you pointed out, we never know when our time will come.

All of your hard work, swimming/exercise and your dedication toward doing as much as you could to live a long, healthy
life...IT BOUGHT YOU A SECOND CHANCE!

I would be thankful if I received a second chance..!



Quote
Right now I would be happy with a quarterback that I could be a fan of. Bernie was great.

Be competitive with some players you like to root for. I want a quarterback who can deliver wins with two minutes left and down a score. At least have the belief that your guy can do it. That feeling does not exist now.

It kills me how Mr. Irrelevant Brock Purdy is a baller. How some teams have lucked into a franchise guy. And it is luck.

Maybe we will find our guy. I sure hope so.


Bone...this part, concerning the Browns..all of us have our hopes and dreams but what happens with the Browns, the only Pro-team some of us have ever supported..some who are paid a remarkable amount to run the Browns franchise simply do not care as much as some Browns fans do.

Having a background in football, sports management and how to judge and how to treat players...those are just a few of the basic qualities needed to build a successful franchise. Some NFL owners are successful businessmen who judge their success or failure based on the amount of money their franchises are able to accumulate under their leadership.

I don't know if the Browns will ever figure out how to build a winning franchise...there are plenty of examples available that the Browns owners could try to emulate, copy or use as an example, if the Browns were interested in building a winning, successful franchise...the 49ers..the LIONS..the BRONCOS...just to name a few NFL franchises that have found a way to succeed.

...but, they sure could write a library of books on what not to do to build a winning NFL franchise.

Under the Haslam ownership beginning seven games into the 2012 season, Jimmy and Dee Haslam have a record of 44-94-1 and through the end of the 2020 regular season.

Some Browns fans simply care more than maybe they should.


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You make it sound as if everyone had to be on the same page for the Browns to sign watson. That any sound of decent would have derailed that trade. I highly doubt that. I'm not saying whether a unanimous decision was made or not. But it wasn't needed. What I don't believe happened is that Stefanski went to the higher ups and requested they get watson. The FO and owner are the decision makers. I would certainly say they asked Stefanski if he felt he could work with watson and my guess would be that Stefanski said yes.

But this is a analytics driven team in terms of decision making. We've seen it with drafting players who have high SPARQ scores even when other statistics may not indicate they should be drafted at their draft position. Maybe you think that Stefanski saying that watson would be fine is the same as being part of the decision making. If that's so I misunderstood your intentions. But the analytics and stats combined with the ability to manage the cap with such a contract were the deciding factors. The fact Haslam felt the Browns would have a shot at the SB with watson at QB was another one.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Happy Birthday, Bone. Thanks for sharing that story. Glad you pulled through.


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- John Muir

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All good boys.

I will try for another 77 years maybe set some kind of record.

Maybe if I live that long the blind Browns will find that acorn.

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I think if any of the 3 had voiced serious doubts then the deal gets nixed.


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Originally Posted by Jester
I think if any of the 3 had voiced serious doubts then the deal gets nixed.

This.


LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Belated Birthday wishes Bone ...

I agree with Jester - if there had been serious reservations the deal doesn't get pushed up the ladder for sign off by JH. The one thing I feel good about regarding the FO is that they genuinely seem to be 100% on the same page and pulling in the same direction.


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DW will force the hand of the organization to get rid of him.

My hope is that it does not cost the job of either AB or KS. The organization made the decision to trade for DW.

It did not work. That does not make the decision to trade for him was someone's fault.

AB/KS have brought stability. They are good young professionals.

Because DW is a failure does mean that AB and KS are failures.

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Our GM must take the majority of the blame.


$230m guaranteed is insane but what's worse is you can seriously question his hunger, his leadership skills and his commitment. That's qualities that should be a given when the organization is investing five years of their future.

I can't find one single expectation that Watson so far has exceed.
Thats's really depressing and that's why the majoroty of the blame fall on the doorstep of Berry's office.

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Originally Posted by Jester
I think if any of the 3 had voiced serious doubts then the deal gets nixed.

I don't disagree with that portion of the debate. But I think it's a pretty fair distance between not showing serious doubts and full support. Like I said, it seems the two biggest factors were first and foremost would be the analytics. This FO has made it plain that nothing happens without a thorough review of the analytics. Secondly would be a the salary cap implications and if they could manage the cap having given watson such a contract. There isn't a single corporation anywhere that does not also consider the risk verses the reward.

Do I think Stefanski signed off on watson? Sure I do. But at that point the FO and ownership had decided to move on from Mayfield and watson certainly appeared to be a better option than anything else on the market at the time. I mean if you look at the numbers and ignore the man aspect. Hopefully they have learned that the numbers alone don't tell the entire story.


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Our GM must take the majority of the blame.

flo...first, we need to define who is in charge of the Browns franchise.

Everything I have read indicates that Jimmy Haslam III is in charge of the Browns franchise and everyone works for him.

A story I read about Jimmy portrayed him as a hands-on and intense businessman who is in charge at Pilot and with the Browns. I have a hard time believing that JH was not the man in charge of the Watson deal and AB simply helped the boss get what he wanted...the Browns franchise QB, Watson..!


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Originally Posted by mac
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Our GM must take the majority of the blame.

flo...first, we need to define who is in charge of the Browns franchise.

Everything I have read indicates that Jimmy Haslam III is in charge of the Browns franchise and everyone works for him.

A story I read about Jimmy portrayed him as a hands-on and intense businessman who is in charge at Pilot and with the Browns. I have a hard time believing that JH was not the man in charge of the Watson deal and AB simply helped the boss get what he wanted...the Browns franchise QB, Watson..!
I agree with most of it but I still question the lack of proper due diligence and that's the responsibility of the FO

Forget about the money and look at the player on the field and we haven't even got 1/3 back of what we invested.

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I don't think due diligence was the issue as far as play on the field.

In most cases you gauge future performance based upon recent past performance.

DW was a highly successful quarterback in college and the pros. Age and injury were not a factor.

I do not believe there is a single soul who could have predicted DW decline to his current level of play.

Plenty of teams would have loved to get him.

The blame game does not always apply.

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Looking at the fact he decided to sit on the bench for an entire season in Houston might have been a clue they should have looked at closer. That and all of the accusations. Sometimes numbers alone don't tell the entire story.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Looking at the fact he decided to sit on the bench for an entire season in Houston might have been a clue they should have looked at closer. That and all of the accusations. Sometimes numbers alone don't tell the entire story.
100% this.

There were at that time so many red flags surrounding Watson that it was a crazy decision from my perspective.

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Whew…they got their deals done before having to admit their stupidity in the Watson deal.


"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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What we saw yesterday against the Raiders was a disjointed team who wasn’t prepared and some of them wasn’t even fully committed. Four games into the season this is unacceptable.
This isn’t the first time Stefanski has failed to prepare a suitable game plan, his players and make sure all of them are mentally in the right place.

Another worrying issue is our inability ability to close winnable games. We had plenty of opportunities against both the Giants and the Raiders but our “win at all cost”mentality wasn’t there. Our team lacks leaders. Who’s our alpha, the undisputed leader who demand excellence and accountability?

Who’s is our natural born leader who lead by example, encourages teammates and make sure everybody is on their front feet’s and ready to fight?

Stefanski?
Watson?

Myles Garrett has the physical presence of an alpha but mentally he’s still a sheep looking for his sheep herder to guide him.

Andrew Berry has now been a GM for nearly four years and he still hasn’t created a winning mentality inside his organization. That’s also a huge failure.

If this organization wants to take the next step and long term challenge the very best they need leaders, real leaders who has the leadership skills, mentality and the hunger to belong to the very best.

Right now we don’t have these qualities inside the Browns organization.

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Originally Posted by Floquinho
What we saw yesterday against the Raiders was a disjointed team who wasn’t prepared and some of them wasn’t even fully committed. Four games into the season this is unacceptable.
This isn’t the first time Stefanski has failed to prepare a suitable game plan, his players and make sure all of them are mentally in the right place.

Another worrying issue is our inability ability to close winnable games. We had plenty of opportunities against both the Giants and the Raiders but our “win at all cost”mentality wasn’t there. Our team lacks leaders. Who’s our alpha, the undisputed leader who demand excellence and accountability?

Who’s is our natural born leader who lead by example, encourages teammates and make sure everybody is on their front feet’s and ready to fight?

Stefanski?
Watson?

Myles Garrett has the physical presence of an alpha but mentally he’s still a sheep looking for his sheep herder to guide him.

Andrew Berry has now been a GM for nearly four years and he still hasn’t created a winning mentality inside his organization. That’s also a huge failure.

If this organization wants to take the next step and long term challenge the very best they need leaders, real leaders who has the leadership skills, mentality and the hunger to belong to the very best.

Right now we don’t have these qualities inside the Browns organization.

I wish more understood this.. There is noone on this team to rally around. You look at sidelines and they are just sitting on the bench, head in a towel, not engaged. Garrett is a good player but he's not a leader. We need someone like Ray Lewis, or hell Baker Mayfield.. Someone to get this team fired up.. this team looks like they are just going through the motions


Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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This Berry/Stefanski marriage is 4 games into it's 5th year. The combined record of our opponents (not counting victories against us) is 2-11. We are 1-3 against them. Outside of Watson playing a little better, there's no sign things are going to improve.


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Maybe we need cheerleaders.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
Maybe we need cheerleaders.

They wouldn't be able to cheer.

They'd all be in casts braces and on the injured list.

It is Cleveland ya know ! smile

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Originally Posted by bonefish
Maybe we need cheerleaders.

Not necessary. Our defense is a top 3 dance troupe.

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I once listened to a speech from a great leader who said something like this... some will like it, others not so much rofl tsktsk


Demanding excellency and accountability makes no sense without a why.
And a purpose with why.

Why do we give this everything we have?
Why do we strive to get better?
Why do we hold ourselves and our teammates accountable?
Why do we want to win at all cost?


Apart from being a GM and a HC our leadership must give our players a vision and selling them a dream.

Why the Cleveland Browns?
Being a Brown must mean something!

Great leaders sell dreams.

Henry Ford didn't only sell a car, he sold America a dream.
Winston Churchill didn't just ask his soldiers to die for nothing. He gave them a purpose, a dream.
Steve Jobs didn't sell a mobile phone, he sold what it could do for us. A tool to explore the world. He sold a dream.

The first step to excellency and accountability is to create a purpose.
Why should I want to be the best.
Why is it so important to win at all cost.
Why win with the Cleveland Browns?

Berry and Stefanski has totally failed with these things.

They don't inspire when talking.
They don't explain why being a Browns is the most important thing in the world.
The don't give us dreams, something to be proud about.

Without a purpose it's hard to demand excellency and accountability.

This is exactly why the Cleveland Browns needs a leader who has a dream.
Who's not satisfied with being the second best.
Who don't sleeps at night after a loss.

We need someone who points out where to go and why!

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IMO we need a quarterback who can lead a team to victory when the moment calls for it.

When a team is down a score with two minutes to play they need a quarterback who can lead a team down the field and win the game.

That is what Mahomes does. That is why the KC wins Super Bowls.

Meanwhile the Browns cannot score over 18 points a game. They cannot rush for 100 yds a game.

DW has not thrown for over 200 yards in a game and is the lowest ranked quarterback.

No teams wins with an offense playing like that.

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Why do you only post here when things are seemingly bad with the team?


At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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No matter the results of this year nothing is getting blown up. KS/AB are going nowhere.

I am glad that is the case. Those who wish to blame KS/AB are barking up the wrong tree.

In many ways I hope we lose as many games as we can lose. If we won 9 or 3 and do not make the playoffs. The only real difference is where we will draft.

I want Jalen Milroe or Garrett Nussmeier. In fact there may be other quarterbacks I want. I just do not want DW.

The Browns have to reload. The very best outcome for this year would be DW going to trial and the Browns getting out of his contract. I don't know where that stands today.

I know the accuser was scheduled to meet the Browns and the NFL. I do not know if the accuser was known before the contract was signed. I can only hope that we can get rid of DW.

I will watch the games if they are interesting. If not I will find other things to do. My passion for football is not there and will not return until we find a quarterback I want to root for.

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Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
Why do you only post here when things are seemingly bad with the team?

Easy answer. Why should I complain when we win?
When we win I enjoy listening to Quincy, watching good sports shows on YT and read a lot of the comments on this forum.

When we lose is when I have strong opinions because I’m disappointed.

If you look at it long term we’re on downward trajectory.
Our best players aren’t getting younger.

A lot of todays problems is because of bad decision makings.
Losing three 1st rd picks in a row is costly. The rest of our recruitment’s in the draft and FA is more miss than hits.
Mistakes are repeated.

We lack leaders. Our winning culture inside the locker room is questionable. That’s a fact and the results backs it up.

I don’t think Stefanski and Berry has what it takes to improve this organization to the same level as the very best teams.
They’re not bad but I don’t see a long term vision. Watson is on his third year.

I have a hard time seeing us getting better the next couple years.
In my opinion a lot of this is down to bad leadership, lack of discipline and a weak culture without accountability.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
No matter the results of this year nothing is getting blown up. KS/AB are going nowhere.

I am glad that is the case. Those who wish to blame KS/AB are barking up the wrong tree.

In many ways I hope we lose as many games as we can lose. If we won 9 or 3 and do not make the playoffs. The only real difference is where we will draft.

I want Jalen Milroe or Garrett Nussmeier. In fact there may be other quarterbacks I want. I just do not want DW.

The Browns have to reload. The very best outcome for this year would be DW going to trial and the Browns getting out of his contract. I don't know where that stands today.

I know the accuser was scheduled to meet the Browns and the NFL. I do not know if the accuser was known before the contract was signed. I can only hope that we can get rid of DW.

I will watch the games if they are interesting. If not I will find other things to do. My passion for football is not there and will not return until we find a quarterback I want to root for.

Don’t lose faith bone!
You’re worth enjoying success and to celebrate with friends and family. Just don’t lose faith my friend.

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So you're far more motivated by the negative than the positive.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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After the darkness of 1 win in two years. I am hardened steel.

Going through all that all I wished for was a winning season. Then we accomplished that. In 2020 it looked like we were headed for real success after the trade for Odell and the play of Baker. Then that disintegrated.

Although I agreed with DW trade. I held my nose because of his character. I was sure we could do damage once he was ready to play.

Going into this year I was cautiously optimistic about DW. I was super excited about the roster and felt when Nick came back if we held our own till then. We could make a run.

Now it all looks like sand castles with high tide coming.

You cannot win with any consistency without a franchise quarterback. It is simplistic but it is true.

In addition I dislike DW.

Once we get a quarterback who I believe in. Then I will believe a Super Bowl is possible. Until then I know that it is not. I don't care who the head coach or GM is.


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I took it as he relishes in the positive but has to vent with the negative.
I perfectly reasonable stance


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My only complaint about this is that Ski’s O seems to take 4-6 weeks every year to gel and start looking PRO. The D does some of this too. But unless yesterday was a fluke for DW, he was woefully unprepared for the season.

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In 2023 the Browns won their opening game beating the Bengals 24-3. They won 3 of their first 5 games and beating the 49'ers in game 5. Frustration can sometimes get the best of us.


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Have Andrew Berry made visible improvements in;


- the recruitment process?
- signing FA’s and made trades in a economical efficient way?
- created a healthy environment built on discipline, dedication and accountability?
- have he formed a vision and a long term goal for the organization?

How many of his FA signings can be labeled as a success?

Have he in general recruited the best possible option on key positions?

Is handling our cap space well?

Is he making the right key decisions?

How is he handle conflicts with his coaches and players?


Judging solely by a results to spending ratio his achievement is from my perspective underwhelming.

I don’t see us having a healthy players environment.

What’s the Cleveland Browns vision for the future according to Berry both short and long term? (become better or winning games isn’t a vision, that’s a job description)
Do we know that?

If we can’t answer these questions properly it’s time to question his long term future as a GM with Browns.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
So you're far more motivated by the negative than the positive.


THAT coming from YOU might be the funniest thing I've read all year.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
So you're far more motivated by the negative than the positive.
That's actually good question who deserves an answer.

Short answer is yes!

I'm going to watch live hockey soon at my local arena but I will come back to you when the game is over.

My local team who're on a six game winning streak is normally a typical underachievers so you can bet I'm highly critical against their leadership.
I know the GM of the club and he's a typical bullshi##er but this is a small town with only 140 000 citizens so as long its free beers in the bar nobody complains.

We're at the moment top of the table in the second division in my country but I expect things to change - to the worse. Bad habits is hard to change.

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Originally Posted by WSU Willie
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
So you're far more motivated by the negative than the positive.


THAT coming from YOU might be the funniest thing I've read all year.

You seem confused by thinking that people who look to and present the facts are negative. Sometimes facts may appear negative. But only when you don't like the facts presented.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
So you're far more motivated by the negative than the positive.

The organization lead by Berry and Stefanski had a golden opportunity after the 2020/21 season to transform the Browns into something really special.
The majority of the foundations was laid down at the right places and if they have just trusted the process and let players mature and let them developed things could have looked so much better today.

One of the things our leadership couldn’t fully handle was players with character and attitude.

Berry and Stefanski are typical beta characters. Diplomatic leaders with a low intensity approach to both humans and how to communicate. None of them are great talkers and they almost never seem them talk straight forward in definitive terms in either interviews or press conferences.

Both of them seem to prefer developed players instead of nurturing young talents into seasoned pros.
How many young talents have been developed into stars by Stefanski since 2020?

When they made the decision to trade for Watson they lost me.

Not only because I dislike him as a human but because how amateurish our organization handled that whole process.
They bet on the wrong horse and gambled with our future without a clear long term plan how we should move forward.
The notion that we were only a franchise QB away from a Super Bowl was a delusional dream from our leadership.
Our roster lacked depth and giving away so many draft picks was short sighted and stupid.

I’m sure that Andrew Berry can develop into a decent GM with time but right now he has been part of a leadership that has gambled away a golden opportunity for this organization to succeed.

To answer your question about being motivated by negativity it’s partly correct.

When I see so much craziness I get frustrated and want to ventilated it somewhere.
If you look at my history as a poster on this board you can see that I had this negative thoughts about Berry and our future already in 2022. If you go back to 2020 I was much more positive and most of my posts were about enjoying our games and how I looked forward to the future.
My best moment on this forum was when I sang and danced “Corvette Corvette” and shared my feelings with other Browns fans.

I really missed those days.

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I certainly won't disagree that the Browns seem to have seasons that let the fans down right after they have a season that gives the fans hope. You see a season like last year and it causes you to feel they had a season they could use as motivation to build on. Then we witness what we seen have this season. That is discouraging and upsetting to say the least. So it's not like I don't get it, I do.

As for how someone does when speaking in public? I don't take anything away from that. I have known people with very dynamic personalities that aren't good public speakers. I have also rarely seen any NFL, NBA or MLB coach speak without dodging some of the tough questions. Those pressers and interviews are nothing more than PR and some people just aren't good public speakers. That doesn't tell us much about how they are in private.

And if you think you didn't like the watson deal? Just look at my sig. So we're very much on the same page there.

I'll just say that I loved last season! After watson went down nobody gave us a chance at a winning season much less making the playoffs. Stefanski managed to take a guy the Jet's didn't even want as a backup anymore, who 30 other NFL teams didn't think was worthy of being on their roster and ran a system to accentuate his strengths that somehow led this team into the playoffs. I don't expect everyone to agree with me but it seemed like a feat of monumental proportions to me. And doing it without watson at the QB position was just icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned.

I guess maybe it's from me getting older but when looking back at my life I realized that it's the hard times and trials of life that makes me appreciate the good times in life. If everything in my life had been perfect I wouldn't have learned the lessons I needed. I would have come to expect that perfection was the normal course of things and have taken the best of times for granted. It has made me appreciate the yin and yang of things when it comes to life in general.

It sure would be nice if that didn't apply to my pastime that I spend my week-ends watching for relaxation. But after so many decades of this I've grown to expect that too. I no longer have false expectations and that helps.


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The crucial question is who’s going to lead us out of this nightmare and come up with a plan how to move forward?

Solving the Watson dilemma is just the first step.
We soon need to make a decision what to do with our older players. Let them run their contacts down or trade and get some new draft picks.

Who’s steering the wheels on this giant ship? Who’s our undisputed leader? If it’s Jimmy we can kiss our future goodbye and find a new hobby the next years or so.

Analytics is something necessary at this level but when numbers has to much impact and we seems to underestimate human factors then we need to find a new formula how to make crucial decisions and sign FA and draft young players.

Andrew Berry has done a lot of good things but he has also made mistakes. Unfortunately too many. His decision makings must be questioned. His leadership skills also has his shortcomings. In a well run organization that kind of leadership maybe works but not in a dysfunctional NFL franchise who underperform more or less every second year.

Kevin Stefanski is normally good HC but….. he’s not a natural leader who can take command and steer the ship when there is a storm. He’s way too passive and diplomatic for that. Kevin needs a strong hand above him to function in an optimal way.

So when will our leadership react and make changes?

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Changes will come when the embarrassment at the product on the field exceeds the embarrassment of admitting that the QB upgrade-attempt was an enormous mistake.

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Very true.

The organization from Haslam on down at some point has to accept what they are seeing.

It is understandable that they want to make sure their actions are correct. Obviously so much was invested.

In Denver and SF they had to move on from self-inflicted bad decisions with Wilson and Lance.

Haslam has to be ok with the decision to bench DW. I am sure of that.

Nobody wanted this. It is a tough pill to swallow. But you cannot expect different results from the same actions.

Speaking for myself. I hate where we are. I have already given up on the year and it is October.

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I agree with your post 100% Bone. Admit the mistake. They don't have to come right out and say it. It can merely be stated that DW is not playing well, obviously, and we need to sit him down at this point to get back on the right track. Anything would be better at this point. This has been the worse QB play since we've come back and that's saying a Lot!!!!

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Originally Posted by jfanent
Originally Posted by WSU Willie
Changes will come when the embarrassment at the product on the field exceeds the embarrassment of admitting that the QB upgrade-attempt was an enormous mistake.

I really don't see how much more embarrassing it can get. Just about every media outlet/talking head is telling the world how bad it is. We are at rock bottom on the embarrassment scale. No one can talk about the situation without grinning and shaking their head.


And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir

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I really wish they'd just fake a Watson injury, put him on IR and let him fade away until the draft next year


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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That would only work if you think watson would stay silent about it. If not it would only complicate the drama. I consider that a pretty risky proposition.


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Originally Posted by WSU Willie
Changes will come when the embarrassment at the product on the field exceeds the embarrassment of admitting that the QB upgrade-attempt was an enormous mistake.
Originally Posted by bonefish
Very true.

The organization from Haslam on down at some point has to accept what they are seeing.

It is understandable that they want to make sure their actions are correct. Obviously so much was invested.

In Denver and SF they had to move on from self-inflicted bad decisions with Wilson and Lance.

Haslam has to be ok with the decision to bench DW. I am sure of that.

Nobody wanted this. It is a tough pill to swallow. But you cannot expect different results from the same actions.

Speaking for myself. I hate where we are. I have already given up on the year and it is October.
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
I agree with your post 100% Bone. Admit the mistake. They don't have to come right out and say it. It can merely be stated that DW is not playing well, obviously, and we need to sit him down at this point to get back on the right track. Anything would be better at this point. This has been the worse QB play since we've come back and that's saying a Lot!!!!

Very good points from all of you.

Maybe I’m too old to understand everything that’s going on in the world today but I suspect that Berry and Stefanski is part of the new generation who almost never accept accountability or admit guilt.

Just look at the whole Harvard fiasco with Claudia Gay, they’re all products who’s educated and shaped inside a similar woke culture.
They says everything but nothing they say has any meaningful substance. Just word sallads without an end.

I can see Jimmy and Dee Haslam do some kind of admission but they have enough fukk off money to survive whatever criticism they receive but….the other guys… Nah.

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Stefanski didn't sign watson to a contract. He isn't one of those who decided to marry themselves to him.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Stefanski didn't sign watson to a contract. He isn't one of those who decided to marry themselves to him.
If you Google the press conference when they introduced our poster boy or search for some articles from that time he seems rather invested in this trade judging from my perspective.

I simply don’t believe in the narrative that he was a little lukewarm in the beginning, nixi dix.
Just because he wasn’t personally involved when Watson’ signed the contract I’m 100% sure he gave his blessing before they decided to finalize the deal.
Five years is a long time of you’re not fully committed.

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You do understand that press conferences are nothing but public relation statements meant to make everything look good, correct? What did you expect Stefanski to say? "I didn't want this guy but they signed him anyway"? I'm not saying he didn't want an upgrade at QB. He and Baker's relationship was on shaky ground. I'm not even saying he didn't agree to watson coming here.

But let's be clear here, Stefanski is not in charge of contracts. He is not in charge of who gets signed. He is not in charge of deciding the parameters of any trade. It was in no way up to him to give watson a guaranteed 230 million and give up three first round draft picks and more. It wasn't up to him that even after watson refused the Browns offer and said he refused to be traded to the Browns that the FO went back and even offered him more. Just remember that it was you who posted this......

Quote
the new generation who almost never accept accountability or admit guilt.

And when someone decides to place blame on someone who was in no way in charge of or responsible for making such decisions, what do you call that?


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Every day human nature.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
You do understand that press conferences are nothing but public relation statements meant to make everything look good, correct? What did you expect Stefanski to say? "I didn't want this guy but they signed him anyway"? I'm not saying he didn't want an upgrade at QB. He and Baker's relationship was on shaky ground. I'm not even saying he didn't agree to watson coming here.

But let's be clear here, Stefanski is not in charge of contracts. He is not in charge of who gets signed. He is not in charge of deciding the parameters of any trade. It was in no way up to him to give watson a guaranteed 230 million and give up three first round draft picks and more. It wasn't up to him that even after watson refused the Browns offer and said he refused to be traded to the Browns that the FO went back and even offered him more. Just remember that it was you who posted this......

Quote
the new generation who almost never accept accountability or admit guilt.

And when someone decides to place blame on someone who was in no way in charge of or responsible for making such decisions, what do you call that?


If the Browns is a serious franchise then all executives has to be on board when deciding to finalize the deal.

Haslams has to approve to invest fresh money to cover the escrow and eventual other additional costs.
Our chief strategist Depodesta has to run his numbers and then give his blessings.
Berry’s job is to conduct the due diligence and all the other background checks that’s necessary and make sure our salary cap can handle such a big contract.
Stefanski has to give his OK from a coach perspective that Watson has all the qualities necessary that can make us take the final step and become a SB contender. (wasn’t that the goal?)

There’s no other way for the owners to push forward such a mega trade without having total consensus from the organization’s executives.
Jimmy is probably a direct owner who wants to be part of the decisions but his holding company has lawyers and advisers who’s experienced enough to make sure that the decision process has been done properly. He just can’t release so much money from his fortune without necessary documents and total agreements from all decision makers inside the Browns organization.

Even rich people has restrictions how they can handle their own means without fulfilling all legal and financial requirements necessary.

When it comes to Stefanski he’s probably the most important person inside the organization because he’s the one who’s going to work with Watson so without his OK I can’t see this deal go through.

With that said I’m with you that what Kevin thinks privately and in public is two different things. I don’t envy him.

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The head coach is not an executive. Coaches are not a part of the executive staff. The FO and their personal staff are the executives. None of them need Stefanski's seal of approval to make their decisions.

Stefanski made it clear that even now he confers with the GM in regards to whether watson remains the starter or not.

That certainly doesn't sound like this FO consides him
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When it comes to Stefanski he’s probably the most important person inside the organization because he’s the one who’s going to work with Watson

Stefanki is simply another employee who works under the FO/executives. I'm sure they ask for his input but that's one ingredient of it not the one who makes such deicsions.

So if Stefanksi said it was okay to sign watson you believe he is responsible for the ultimate decision? And are you telling me that every move this FO makes it takes total consensus? So if Haslam wants to make a move the only way he does it is if everyone else agrees with him? Seriously?

There really is zero doubt on whose responsibility it was to make the call on this. It's Berry and Haslam.

The head coach is not responsible for their decisions.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
The head coach is not an executive. Coaches are not a part of the executive staff. The FO and their personal staff are the executives. None of them need Stefanski's seal of approval to make their decisions.

Stefanski made it clear that even now he confers with the GM in regards to whether watson remains the starter or not.

That certainly doesn't sound like this FO consides him
Quote
When it comes to Stefanski he’s probably the most important person inside the organization because he’s the one who’s going to work with Watson

Stefanki is simply another employee who works under the FO/executives. I'm sure they ask for his input but that's one ingredient of it not the one who makes such deicsions.

So if Stefanksi said it was okay to sign watson you believe he is responsible for the ultimate decision? And are you telling me that every move this FO makes it takes total consensus? So if Haslam wants to make a move the only way he does it is if everyone else agrees with him? Seriously?

There really is zero doubt on whose responsibility it was to make the call on this. It's Berry and Haslam.

The head coach is not responsible for their decisions.
Let’s agree to disagree on a few things.
Maybe all my experience sitting in board rooms is outdated but let’s ask Oxford Languages about the word

executive.

adjective
relating to or having the power to put plans or actions into effect.

a person with senior managerial responsibility in a business



None of the executives is totally responsible for such a big decision. They’re consulted to share expertise and voice their opinion.
No sane franchise NFL owner approve $230m guaranteed without fully knowing that his head coach is comfortable with the deal. The same person who’s the play caller and who’s going to communicate on game days with the new QB, is in charge of all the other coaches including our OC and DC.

Do you really think that Stefanski was invited to the initial press conference if he wasn’t part of the decision making? Really.

Hopefully our disagreement is just a misunderstanding because English isn’t my first language and I’m used to Scandinavian management descriptions.
I’m not blaming all on Kevin and think he’s totally responsible for a joint decision but at the same time I’m not absolving him from accountability.

Is that a controversial take on this?

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If you wish to use the word executive you may wish to look at how you contextualized its meaning.

Quote
a person with senior managerial responsibility in a business

Making trades, deciding what to offer a player you are trying to sign, the final decision to sign that player or not nor the content of the contract itself are in any way are a description of the HC "executives" job.

Each part of this organization has things they are solely responsible for. Each decision is made based on input from other people. How many people do you plan to blame for the decision agreed upon between Berry and Haslam whose actual job description is to make those decisions?

Can you show me anywhere that it is in any way a part of Stefnaski's job description to make decisions about signing players?


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You are 100% correct.

I have no doubt that Haslam and Berry asked KS what he thought about DW as a quarterback.

Not about his leadership. Not about his contract.

How do you see him as a quarterback and could you coach him? KS had no previous experience with DW.

He could study film. He would have an opinion of his play on the field. But KS could not answer what it would be like to coach him.

Prior to his time in Cleveland DW was considered a top quarterback. That is not in question.

Right now he does not resemble the player he was.

Myself I do not think it matters who, and how it got done. It does not change where we are today.

What matters is what is done going forward.

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I guess I simply find his entire premise somewhat confusing.

You pay one man to make these decisions and one man only. He is solely responsible to make the ultimate decision. Nobody else is and it's he and the owner who had the ultimate say in this matter.

Corporate structure has its pecking order in regards to responsibilities and control. Everyone has a boss and you answer to the boss above you. On an NFL football team you have the owner who has the ultimate and final say. Some owners choose to relinquish that power and leave it up to their GM. The second in command is the GM. Everyone hired as his subordinates are hand picked by him. And yes, everyone who works under him are his subordinates. He hired them and they are his responsibility because he chose them himself to their respective positions to carry out the duties he deemed they were qualified to do.

I know that there have been jobs in my life where I had to make the decisions. Where the owner of a company depended on me to make a lot of the calls for his business. I can't imagine all the hell I would have gotten if I had made such a huge mistake and tried to play the blame game by trying to make my decisions the fault of the subordinates that worked for me. To me that's the very definition of passing the buck. It was my job to make those decisions. That was part of my job description. Not the job description or decision of the foremen who worked under me. There was the owner, then me and then everyone else.

I see this situation exactly the same way.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
If you wish to use the word executive you may wish to look at how you contextualized its meaning.

Quote
a person with senior managerial responsibility in a business

Making trades, deciding what to offer a player you are trying to sign, the final decision to sign that player or not nor the content of the contract itself are in any way are a description of the HC "executives" job.

Each part of this organization has things they are solely responsible for. Each decision is made based on input from other people. How many people do you plan to blame for the decision agreed upon between Berry and Haslam whose actual job description is to make those decisions?

Can you show me anywhere that it is in any way a part of Stefnaski's job description to make decisions about signing players?
Originally Posted by bonefish
You are 100% correct.

I have no doubt that Haslam and Berry asked KS what he thought about DW as a quarterback.

Not about his leadership. Not about his contract.

How do you see him as a quarterback and could you coach him? KS had no previous experience with DW.

He could study film. He would have an opinion of his play on the field. But KS could not answer what it would be like to coach him.

Prior to his time in Cleveland DW was considered a top quarterback. That is not in question.

Right now he does not resemble the player he was.

Myself I do not think it matters who, and how it got done. It does not change where we are today.

What matters is what is done going forward.
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
I guess I simply find his entire premise somewhat confusing.

You pay one man to make these decisions and one man only. He is solely responsible to make the ultimate decision. Nobody else is and it's he and the owner who had the ultimate say in this matter.

Corporate structure has its pecking order in regards to responsibilities and control. Everyone has a boss and you answer to the boss above you. On an NFL football team you have the owner who has the ultimate and final say. Some owners choose to relinquish that power and leave it up to their GM. The second in command is the GM. Everyone hired as his subordinates are hand picked by him. And yes, everyone who works under him are his subordinates. He hired them and they are his responsibility because he chose them himself to their respective positions to carry out the duties he deemed they were qualified to do.

I know that there have been jobs in my life where I had to make the decisions. Where the owner of a company depended on me to make a lot of the calls for his business. I can't imagine all the hell I would have gotten if I had made such a huge mistake and tried to play the blame game by trying to make my decisions the fault of the subordinates that worked for me. To me that's the very definition of passing the buck. It was my job to make those decisions. That was part of my job description. Not the job description or decision of the foremen who worked under me. There was the owner, then me and then everyone else.

I see this situation exactly the same way.

This below isn’t personal against any of you but I’m just getting so irritated when I think about these morons making stupid decisions.

Anyway…. As soon you ask for Stefanski’s opinion then what’re they going to do if they don’t like his answer. Let him take charge of a 230million investment and continue making the play calls with a QB he doesn’t like?

Secondly and maybe more importantly.

Saying that Deshaun Watson was considered a top QB is only valid if you don’t include his personal problems, all the allegations and his conflict with the Texans into consideration. That gives the impression that this was a safe deal.

That’s a highly subjective assumption not built on all public information available. I’m not saying that he was a bad player with the Texans but when you factor everything else he has gone through then a different picture is accruing. When the Browns entered the negotiations he was already damaged goods.

Berry could have phoned the nearest psychiatrist and they would have told him what’s normal to expect from such a questionable personality.
Those who claim otherwise haven’t properly done their homework.

If the Browns have traded him for a maximum of one first round pick in 2022 and give him a contract similar to what Baker got from the Bucs it would be described as a deal worth taking, Now it’s known as one of the worst trades in the history of the NFL.

(if he and the Texans had refused such a offer then we should have moved on, take a latte, chilled, listen to Prince - Little Red Corvette - or whatever, just don’t sign the stupidest contract ever in the NFL history and gamble away 5-6 years of the organization’s future)

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Originally Posted by Floquinho
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
If you wish to use the word executive you may wish to look at how you contextualized its meaning.

Quote
a person with senior managerial responsibility in a business

Making trades, deciding what to offer a player you are trying to sign, the final decision to sign that player or not nor the content of the contract itself are in any way are a description of the HC "executives" job.

Each part of this organization has things they are solely responsible for. Each decision is made based on input from other people. How many people do you plan to blame for the decision agreed upon between Berry and Haslam whose actual job description is to make those decisions?

Can you show me anywhere that it is in any way a part of Stefnaski's job description to make decisions about signing players?
Originally Posted by bonefish
You are 100% correct.

I have no doubt that Haslam and Berry asked KS what he thought about DW as a quarterback.

Not about his leadership. Not about his contract.

How do you see him as a quarterback and could you coach him? KS had no previous experience with DW.

He could study film. He would have an opinion of his play on the field. But KS could not answer what it would be like to coach him.

Prior to his time in Cleveland DW was considered a top quarterback. That is not in question.

Right now he does not resemble the player he was.

Myself I do not think it matters who, and how it got done. It does not change where we are today.

What matters is what is done going forward.
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
I guess I simply find his entire premise somewhat confusing.

You pay one man to make these decisions and one man only. He is solely responsible to make the ultimate decision. Nobody else is and it's he and the owner who had the ultimate say in this matter.

Corporate structure has its pecking order in regards to responsibilities and control. Everyone has a boss and you answer to the boss above you. On an NFL football team you have the owner who has the ultimate and final say. Some owners choose to relinquish that power and leave it up to their GM. The second in command is the GM. Everyone hired as his subordinates are hand picked by him. And yes, everyone who works under him are his subordinates. He hired them and they are his responsibility because he chose them himself to their respective positions to carry out the duties he deemed they were qualified to do.

I know that there have been jobs in my life where I had to make the decisions. Where the owner of a company depended on me to make a lot of the calls for his business. I can't imagine all the hell I would have gotten if I had made such a huge mistake and tried to play the blame game by trying to make my decisions the fault of the subordinates that worked for me. To me that's the very definition of passing the buck. It was my job to make those decisions. That was part of my job description. Not the job description or decision of the foremen who worked under me. There was the owner, then me and then everyone else.

I see this situation exactly the same way.

This below isn’t personal against any of you but I’m just getting so irritated when I think about these morons making stupid decisions.

Anyway…. As soon you ask for Stefanski’s opinion then what’re they going to do if they don’t like his answer. Let him take charge of a 230million investment and continue making the play calls with a QB he doesn’t like?

Secondly and maybe more importantly.

Saying that Deshaun Watson was considered a top QB is only valid if you don’t include his personal problems, all the allegations and his conflict with the Texans into consideration. That gives the impression that this was a safe deal.

That’s a highly subjective assumption not built on all public information available. I’m not saying that he was a bad player with the Texans but when you factor everything else he has gone through then a different picture is accruing. When the Browns entered the negotiations he was already damaged goods.

Berry could have phoned the nearest psychiatrist and they would have told him what’s normal to expect from such a questionable personality.
Those who claim otherwise haven’t properly done their homework.

If the Browns have traded him for a maximum of one first round pick in 2022 and give him a contract similar to what Baker got from the Bucs it would be described as a deal worth taking, Now it’s known as one of the worst trades in the history of the NFL.

(if he and the Texans had refused such a offer then we should have moved on, take a latte, chilled, listen to Prince - Little Red Corvette - or whatever, just don’t sign the stupidest contract ever in the NFL history and gamble away 5-6 years of the organization’s future)




Corporate structure and pecking order

Where does JW and Paul DePodesta fit in this order ?

I feel there are too many voices in the cluster F of Corporate Structure in the [censored] hole in Berea, who knows nothing about football.

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You keep trying to blame someone for the decision who had zero authority to make the decision. I have no idea why anyone would try to do that. The HC does not have the authority to make the decision to sign any player. That authority strictly lies with the GM and owner. Nobody else.

But that's often times the way things work out. The HC ends up being the fall guy for poor decisions of the GM. Often times the HC ends up being the sacrificial lamb for a GM that made some terrible decisions.

I blame th man who gets paid to make such decisions and not the subordinates who work under him. You seem to feel differently about that.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
You keep trying to blame someone for the decision who had zero authority to make the decision. I have no idea why anyone would try to do that. The HC does not have the authority to make the decision to sign any player. That authority strictly lies with the GM and owner. Nobody else.

But that's often times the way things work out. The HC ends up being the fall guy for poor decisions of the GM. Often times the HC ends up being the sacrificial lamb for a GM that made some terrible decisions.

I blame th man who gets paid to make such decisions and not the subordinates who work under him. You seem to feel differently about that.

Hold the horses now.
I was probably one of the first on this forum to voice my concerns about our new GM. If someone is going to be the scapegoat after all this then you have my guy right here..

Not in any shape or form do I solely blame Stefanski for this cluster fffkk. not even close.

In my book the chain of command is following.

1. Jimmy Boy and his sidekick Kicki Dee.
2. Smartest guy in the room
3. Kevin Stefanski

Then we have our Holy Ghost who seems to have a direct line to Jimmy Boy and there you probably have the root to all evils surrounding the Browns.
If someone is going to follow Berry through the exit door it’s Depodesta.

Technically you’re right that the owner and the GM has the legal authority but in reality they’re both dependent on getting the HC’s approval otherwise they had to find a new HC before it was time to present our new savior.

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Only if the HC refused to coach watson.


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I for one am not looking at the past.

Egg is on the face of plenty of people.

What are the Browns going to do?

Is there a possible happy ending? Highly unlikely that DW is going to all of a sudden start playing great. It might happen but don't bet on the farm.

Would Jimmy decide to make changes at GM and or head coach? Again not likely. It could happen because the year still has 12 games. If it got really ugly who knows?

Most likely it will be a mixed bag of some more downs and maybe a few ups.

This season will end and most likely be a losing season. Nine or more losses.

Free agency will happen and then the draft. The Browns will be scouting for a new quarterback. That is a given. Even if DW plays all the games.

IMO you cannot go forward and assume DW will lead this team.

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You don't make a move like giving Watson the largest guaranteed contract in history without everyone being on board.

Everyone.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
I for one am not looking at the past.

Egg is on the face of plenty of people.

What are the Browns going to do?

Is there a possible happy ending? Highly unlikely that DW is going to all of a sudden start playing great. It might happen but don't bet on the farm.

Would Jimmy decide to make changes at GM and or head coach? Again not likely. It could happen because the year still has 12 games. If it got really ugly who knows?

Most likely it will be a mixed bag of some more downs and maybe a few ups.

This season will end and most likely be a losing season. Nine or more losses.

Free agency will happen and then the draft. The Browns will be scouting for a new quarterback. That is a given. Even if DW plays all the games.

IMO you cannot go forward and assume DW will lead this team.

My fear is that Berry is too weak to make the necessary changes. As it stands we’re going nowhere with Watson as our QB and I’m not sure we can keep Myles another season if this continues. Imagine having another Amari Cooper situation next season with our best player that’s sulking and wants to be traded.

How long do you think Stefanski will survive if we end the season with only 3-4 wins?

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Originally Posted by Floquinho
How long do you think Stefanski will survive if we end the season with only 3-4 wins?

My bet is we'll find out, cause 3-4 wins is looking iffy right now.

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All things considered, I’d keep KS if it means we can get rid of Berry/Depo. I believe they are the biggest issues holding this team back


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To your point, I don't trust Berry/Depo to select our next QB. They were clearly all-in on Watson for Stefanski.

I do wonder if we can get by with Stefanski. He's shown he's able to make lemonade from lemons in terms of FA QBs.

Get this offense healthy and get back to what they were made to do (run the ball and then PA) and then go out and have some fun.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Originally Posted by oobernoober
You don't make a move like giving Watson the largest guaranteed contract in history without everyone being on board.

Everyone.

I agree.

All probably started with Kevin who told Berry he needed a QB because he couldn't work with Baker or to some degree, Baker couldn't work with Kevin. Just call it mutual.

Berry then asked Kevin if he could work with and want Watson.

At that point is when the owner is brought in to the picture. You don't go to the company owner with this idea until you are sure it could possibly happen and have some idea of the potential cost.

Berry isn't going to walk in to the CEO's office with such a plan unprepared to answer a few basic details.


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Ah damn, I saw the beginning part of the title to this thread on my phone and thought.... Oh yes! Maybe we made a move and it said "Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski Fired."

Shucks, it got my hopes up!


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Quincy’s biggest problem with Berry and Stefanski

Agree 100%.

I said this almost 3 seasons ago when they mishandled Baker. At some point people will see them for who they’re.

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something is going to have to give ... and SOON. This can't go on IMO. If Haslam wants to fire AB and KS, then fine. If he wants to tell them to sit Watson, then fine. But the organization can't continue this path.


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted by Dawgs4Life
something is going to have to give ... and SOON. This can't go on IMO. If Haslam wants to fire AB and KS, then fine. If he wants to tell them to sit Watson, then fine. But the organization can't continue this path.
I agree, at this point regardless of what anyone feels about KS, KD, AB or watson or whoever is to blame, Given what we have seen this season, that no action has been taken in any regard to try to rectify and save the season. Inaction is the sign of bad management.


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Just saw a Tampa Bay hi-lite,a running play, and Baker makes a downfield block.Analytically means nothing,but to his temamates it means everything.A team needs football players,not robotic athletes.


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As I said a while back. What this team lacks is HEART, guts, and a passion for NOT losing.


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Question for you GM - an not disputing your posts above in any way - just curious if you know how high Depo was on DW? When we were in pursuit and before the actual trade there were some 'next level' stats that got thrown around about DW in Houston.... I don't remember any of them now but they were things like: 3rd down conversions when losing in the 4th Q, completion % in the last 5 minutes of a game when coming from behind to win .... stuff that I assumed Depo would be all over and therefore I have always assumed Depo was one of the people most high on DW. But you know what assuming gets you.


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DEPO does not MAKE football decisions. I have made that clear on here.


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Originally Posted by GMdawg
DEPO does not MAKE football decisions. I have made that clear on here.

How could he be? He is extremely busy sending hurricanes to Florida and escalating the war in the Middle East.


If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

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More than anything this whole situation is sad.

There are lots of dedicated hard working people in the Browns organization. They pour all they have into their jobs.

At the end of this disaster heads will roll. Coaches, players, who knows?

There is no easy way out.

IMO Jimmy Haslam will need to make a statement. Not the kind where he has a press conference and says he is making a change at GM or head coach.

I think he should make a statement to the fans. He is making huge plans for a new stadium. His payroll is in the top three. He is not like Dolan.

Right now the team is an embarrassment. He made the final decision on signing DW. He needs to announce that KS has his permission to make changes.

He has to take charge and make things clear to the fans. If plans are being made to release Watson in June. And Haslam intends to retain KS he needs to make a statement of his support on all decisions made regarding who plays.

To remain silent and let this just play out till the end of the season is unfair to the organization and the fans.

Haslam has big plans. He needs to show that he supports his fan base.

This cannot continue with nothing being done.

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I agree Bone. If Haslam truly supports his coach and believes in him, HE needs to be the one to publicly say: We are moving on from Watson and turning the page into a brighter future, which includes a fresh start, new stadium, etc


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Saying nothing and doing nothing is not an answer.

Haslam expected the fans to embrace a guy who was charged with sexual harassment.

He held a press conference stating that he understood the fans who had issues with DW. That this was a second chance and he was confident
that DW would do everything to earn his way into the community. He would receive consoling and guidance.

Haslam gave extensions to KS and AB demonstrating his support.

Now he needs to step up and show his support to the fan base.

The game Sunday against the Bengals will get rude. He needs to say to the fans he supports them and understands their frustration with the team.

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I think we can all agree this is the third year in a row that DW hasn’t played any NFL football.


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Originally Posted by GMdawg
DEPO does not MAKE football decisions. I have made that clear on here.


GM..I have to throw the BS flag on this idea of yours that Depo doesn't make football decisions...I'm not buying it.

Depo plays the part of "ENABLER"...!

Haslam comes up with an idea and Depo runs the idea through his "baseball analytics brain" and supports Haslam.

Depo is always a phone call away ready to support the guy who signs his paycheck.

The two guys running the Browns franchise...Owner-Jimmy Haslam and Chief Strategist Paul Depodesta...and neither is qualified to run a NFL franchise.


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rofl


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Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
rofl

He says he's throwing the BS flag, then procedures to make up a bunch of BS.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Reporting what the numbers actually say isn't being an enabler. Or are you trying to suggest that Depo manipulates the numbers to say what Haslam wants them to say? If so that sounds a little out there.


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Originally Posted by mac
Originally Posted by GMdawg
DEPO does not MAKE football decisions. I have made that clear on here.


GM..I have to throw the BS flag on this idea of yours ....

Fixed.


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Originally Posted by bonefish
More than anything this whole situation is sad.

There are lots of dedicated hard working people in the Browns organization. They pour all they have into their jobs.

At the end of this disaster heads will roll. Coaches, players, who knows?

There is no easy way out.

IMO Jimmy Haslam will need to make a statement. Not the kind where he has a press conference and says he is making a change at GM or head coach.

I think he should make a statement to the fans. He is making huge plans for a new stadium. His payroll is in the top three. He is not like Dolan.

Right now the team is an embarrassment. He made the final decision on signing DW. He needs to announce that KS has his permission to make changes.

He has to take charge and make things clear to the fans. If plans are being made to release Watson in June. And Haslam intends to retain KS he needs to make a statement of his support on all decisions made regarding who plays.

To remain silent and let this just play out till the end of the season is unfair to the organization and the fans.

Haslam has big plans. He needs to show that he supports his fan base.

This cannot continue with nothing being done.
Originally Posted by bonefish
Saying nothing and doing nothing is not an answer.

Haslam expected the fans to embrace a guy who was charged with sexual harassment.

He held a press conference stating that he understood the fans who had issues with DW. That this was a second chance and he was confident
that DW would do everything to earn his way into the community. He would receive consoling and guidance.

Haslam gave extensions to KS and AB demonstrating his support.

Now he needs to step up and show his support to the fan base.

The game Sunday against the Bengals will get rude. He needs to say to the fans he supports them and understands their frustration with the team.

100%!

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Originally Posted by mac
Originally Posted by GMdawg
DEPO does not MAKE football decisions. I have made that clear on here.


GM..I have to throw the BS flag on this idea of yours that Depo doesn't make football decisions...I'm not buying it.

Depo plays the part of "ENABLER"...!

Haslam comes up with an idea and Depo runs the idea through his "baseball analytics brain" and supports Haslam.

Depo is always a phone call away ready to support the guy who signs his paycheck.

The two guys running the Browns franchise...Owner-Jimmy Haslam and Chief Strategist Paul Depodesta...and neither is qualified to run a NFL franchise.

You don't need to buy anything. I'm just telling you the facts Mac. They are free


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Jimmy Haslam has to be careful.

Kevin is only human and at the moment he don’t seems to get some public support from his nearest bosses. I have said it before and some of you will not like this but the working environment inside Berea isn’t optimal. Right now is borderline to bad when it comes to show leadership.

Anybody with some sorts of experience in management can see this from miles away.

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This’s hard words and some will not like it but it has to be said. It’s in the end about what’s best for the organization to moving forward from this fiasco.
How to save what is left to save and what to do next so supporters don’t loose interest and quit engage.
Something must be done.

Andrew Berry, and to a lesser extent Kevin Stefanski, have failed.
That’s a fact. Results don’t lie.

Kevin is most of the time a good football coach. His record with the Browns is still above 0.5 but this season the losses are coming more frequently.
What he needs to work with is discipline, players seems unprepared and that the moral inside his team is fluctuating depending on ebb and flow in and between the games.

When it comes to our GM there’s nothing more to say.

He has totally mishandled what he inherited from Dorsey in 2020. There’s no room for excuses any longer.
It’s doesn’t matter how much he was involved in the Watson decision or not. The failure is total and as it stands it will take years to recover.
The ultimate responsibility inside Berea stops with him even if we all know that the owners were heavily involved.

Match goers and true supporters deserves better.
The city of Cleveland deserves better.
Even the players deserves better.

This organization is deeply dysfunctional and Andrew Berry has been involved in almost every bad decisions taken.

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J/C

Is it safe to say our Super Bowl window has slammed shut?


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Originally Posted by GMdawg
You don't need to buy anything. I'm just telling you the facts Mac. They are free

Your Welcome.
Hey GM - if this is a question you can answer or even attempt to shed light on I'd be interested .... who in your opinion was the person most interested in trading for DW? Was it KS because he had lost trust in and there was friction with baker? Was it Berry who perhaps thought DW was the guy to relieve the friction between Baker and HC? Was it Depo who might have done a deep dive on the analytics and found DW in his hey day was a difference maker? Or owner who wanted to make a splash/headlines/saw Fastrack to SB contender?

I've always held a belief/guess that Depo must have been very high on DW for the owner and rest of the FO to go so hard for him. Or put another way - if all Dep does is present data ... Depo must have been very high on what the data represented? But that's exactly what I said: opinion/guess. I could be 100% wrong.


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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
J/C

Is it safe to say our Super Bowl window has slammed shut?
I think the below average window has been slammed shut lol


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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I like Quincy - not a big fan of this take. Meh.


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Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by GMdawg
You don't need to buy anything. I'm just telling you the facts Mac. They are free

Your Welcome.
Hey GM - if this is a question you can answer or even attempt to shed light on I'd be interested .... who in your opinion was the person most interested in trading for DW? Was it KS because he had lost trust in and there was friction with baker? Was it Berry who perhaps thought DW was the guy to relieve the friction between Baker and HC? Was it Depo who might have done a deep dive on the analytics and found DW in his hey day was a difference maker? Or owner who wanted to make a splash/headlines/saw Fastrack to SB contender?

I've always held a belief/guess that Depo must have been very high on DW for the owner and rest of the FO to go so hard for him. Or put another way - if all Dep does is present data ... Depo must have been very high on what the data represented? But that's exactly what I said: opinion/guess. I could be 100% wrong.

Group effort AB, KS, QB coach/offensive cord, scouts, player personel department. They all deserve the credit or blame.


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Five seasons and counting. Maybe time for an half time evaluation.

1. Have the Browns results between 2020-2025 matched your expectations?

2. What do you expect result wise for the next five seasons.

a) a little bit better results than the last five seasons
b) worse
c) same same but different

3. Has Andrew Berry in his five year's improved the quality of our roster and hired the right coaches.

a) yes
b) no
c) not much has changed

2. One of their main goals when they both started was to implement the mantra tough - smart - accountable.
Another expected improvement was to build a winning and healthy culture inside Berea?

Have they failed or succeed?


NFLPA survey

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What does the NFLPA survey have to do with this???


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Originally Posted by GMdawg
What does the NFLPA survey have to do with this???

It’s the players view. Probably the closest we can come to find out what’s going on inside Berea.

If you really care about the Browns getting better then you shouldn’t be afraid of making a fair valuation about the two of the most important employees in the organization.
The same way we after every game and when the season ends evaluate the players I think it’s fair to evaluate the leadership after five season into their tenure, especially when the owners has renewing the contracts for another five seasons.

Are they exceeding your expectations or not? That’s fair question and it gives a good indicator about how well they will probably do in the future.

When they start their job with making a pretty bold statement about improving the culture and implement three important standards, toughness - smartness - accountability, isn’t it fair to evaluate if they have succeed or not?

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Pick a side. Is Stefanski having a hard time winning because Berry is giving him the talent to win with but Stefanski can't get the job done? Or is Berry not giving Stefanski the talent to win with?

Unless the "they" you refer to is someone else. You seem to want to have it both ways. From what I've witnessed Stefanski has done rather well with not having a QB that anyone else in the NFL would consider a starter.


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Originally Posted by Floquinho
Originally Posted by GMdawg
What does the NFLPA survey have to do with this???

It’s the players view. Probably the closest we can come to find out what’s going on inside Berea.

If you really care about the Browns getting better then you shouldn’t be afraid of making a fair valuation about the two of the most important employees in the organization.
The same way we after every game and when the season ends evaluate the players I think it’s fair to evaluate the leadership after five season into their tenure, especially when the owners has renewing the contracts for another five seasons.

Are they exceeding your expectations or not? That’s fair question and it gives a good indicator about how well they will probably do in the future.

When they start their job with making a pretty bold statement about improving the culture and implement three important standards, toughness - smartness - accountability, isn’t it fair to evaluate if they have succeed or not?


If that survey had ANY truth to it why did the Steeler players rate their ownership as a big fat "F"

Now if you just wanted to discuss Ski and Berry why would you throw in an article that I already replied to a long long time ago. I'll go find you my reply.


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I just want to point out how these are graded.



The Browns provide daycare on gameday. They are one of only 10 teams that do not offer a family room during home games.

Players rate the post-game family area 5.30 out of 10, ranking them 31 out of 32 teams.
The players feel that the team organizes family events several times a year, which ranks 15 out of 32.

The players believe that the coaches’ families are treated better than players’ families. For example, the coaches’ families have a post-game meet up inside the stadium, while the players’ families meet in a tent in the parking lot.
So we have a bad rating because we provide day care for the games but we don't offer a family room for all the families. We do however provide a family room for after the games but it's not fancy enough. The team organizes family events but not enough to keep everybody happy.



Food / Dining Area
Grade/Rank
C-
26th out of 32 teams

The Cleveland Browns rate the taste of their team’s food 6.57 out of 10, a ranking of 27 out of 32.
They rate the freshness of their food 7.42 out of 10, a ranking of 25 out of 32.
The players rate their dining area 7.15 out of 10, ranking it 29 out of 32 NFL team dining areas.


Opinions vary but I can say the food is better than most things I order at restaurants.



Nutritionist / Dietician
Grade/Rank
B-
26th out of 32 teams

82% of players report that they get an individualized nutrition plan, ranking the Browns 17 out of 32 teams.
The players feel that their team dietician is moderately accessible, a ranking of 26 out of 32.



Locker Room
Grade/Rank
F-
31st out of 32 teams

39% of players feel they have enough room in their individual lockers, a ranking of 32 out of 32.
29% of players feel the locker room size is adequate, ranking the Browns 31 out of 32 teams.

I'm seeing a real pattern here. Most of these complaints can be fixed with a new stadium, and some work in Berea HMMMMMMMM seams to me both are in the process already.


teams.

Training Room
Grade/Rank
D+
31st out of 32 teams

79% of Browns players feel they have enough full-time trainers, ranking them 27 out of 32 teams.
68% of players feel they have enough full-time physical therapists, a rank of 28 out of 32.
50% of players feel they have enough hot tub space, a rank of 32 out of 32.
71% of players feel they have enough cold tub space, a rank of 29 out of 32.

The players report that the training room is understaffed. Since the players responded to the survey, the Browns have hired two additional staff members, improving coverage significantly.




Training Staff
Grade/Rank
C-
32nd out of 32 teams

69% of Browns players report that they receive enough one-on-one training treatment, ranking them 31 out of 32 teams.
The players feel that the training staff slightly contributes to their overall success, ranking them 32 of 32.




Weight Room
Grade/Rank
A
8th out of 32 teams

The players report that the weight room equipment is high quality, ranking them 8 out of 32 teams.
The players feel that they have more than enough room to train in the weight room, a ranking of 9 out of 32.

The Browns built a brand-new state-of-the-art weight room this past offseason.


Strength Coaches
Grade/Rank
B+
19th out of 32 teams

96% of players report that they get an individualized training plan from their strength coaching staff, ranking the team 10 out of 32.
The players feel that their strength coaches moderately contribute to their overall success, a rank of 22 out of 32 teams.



Team Travel
Grade/Rank
D
28th out of 32 teams

60% of the Browns players believe they have a comfortable amount of personal space on team flights, ranking them 27 out of 32.
The players feel that their team’s travel schedule is not very efficient, a rank of 28 out of 32 teams.



Head Coach
Grade/Rank
C
30th out of 32 teams

67% of Browns players feel their head coach Kevin Stefanski is efficient with their time, a rank of 29 out of 32.
The players feel that Stefanski is moderately receptive to locker room feedback on the team’s needs, ranking him 30 of 32 head coaches in the league.


Ownership
Grade/Rank
C+
22nd out of 32 teams

Owner Jimmy Haslam’s average rating for perceived willingness to invest in the facilities is 7.98 out of 10 from the Browns players, a ranking of 21 out of 32 owners in the league.
The players believe that ownership slightly contributes to a positive team culture, a rank of 29 out of 32.
The players feel that ownership is somewhat committed to building a competitive team, a rank of 29 of the 32 NFL owners.

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Please don’t get Mac going about the strength and conditioning issue.....


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Pick a side. Is Stefanski having a hard time winning because Berry is giving him the talent to win with but Stefanski can't get the job done? Or is Berry not giving Stefanski the talent to win with?

Unless the "they" you refer to is someone else. You seem to want to have it both ways. From what I've witnessed Stefanski has done rather well with not having a QB that anyone else in the NFL would consider a starter.


If we judge Andrew Berry only by the last five seasons results he has not exceed MY expectations.

We’re still without a FQB after he has been in charge for five seasons. Verdict. That’s must be labeled as a failure, despite the circumstances.
His results in the FA and the draft has a few positive flashes but most of his picks and FA deals has been mediocre and some of them are just bad. Verdict. Simply not good enough.
Despite one of the most talented roster in 2020 he couldn’t capitalized on that, instead he created conflicts, negativity and everything else except good results. Everyone knows the part Jimmy has in this but the final judgement still stands. That’s huge failure.
We had one of the best defenses in 2023 but that ended up in flames. Verdict. So far another huge disappointment.
His handling of the Watson and the Baker situation can’t be labeled as anything else as a huge disappointment. Verdict. Not good enough.

Going strictly by our results and all the resources he had to his disposal when he started it’s impossible to say that he has exceed expectations.
It’s ten times easier to remember the failures than to remember one single good thing he has done.
Baker. Watson. Myles. Flacco in and out. Our results. One step forward, two steps back. Disappointing drafts and mediocre FA.

Kevin Stefanski has neither exceeded my expectations or failed. He’s IMO somewhere in the middle.

His coaching on the sideline has been from lowest of the low to some games where he has done excellent. Verdict. Good and bad.
He’s not someone who has an inspiring personality or oozes energy but on the other side his coolness and low intense personality also has a calming impact on his players. It’s a double edged sword that when it works it’s good but when things go south his lack of winning mentality is a burden to his players. Verdict. Good and bad.
His handling of Baker and all that follows is by far his biggest failure. Verdict. A car crash of leadership and that’s to put it mildly. Zero excuses.

He has mostly done OK as a HC despite all the chaos, negativity and lack of overall leadership in this organization.
I give him OK but so far I don’t see him as an elite HC.

If I’m 100% realistic and take off my orange and brown tinted glasses then my verdict is following.

Andrew Berry has a higher ceiling but also a lower floor as a GM that Stefanski as a HC.
Kevin Stefanski has so far a much higher floor but also a lower ceiling as a HC than Berry as a GM.

If the Browns aspire to some day win the Super Bowl I don’t think the combination of Berry and Stefanski could take us all the way.
If our ambitions is to occasionally fight for the division, win one or two playoff games every second or third season, well, then these guys can continue.

NFL is a very competitive environment and so far there’s very few indications that we have the right guys at the wheel to long term success.

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Originally Posted by lampdogg
Please don’t get Mac going about the strength and conditioning issue.....

🤣 First thing I thought of when I saw that list again!


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Originally Posted by FATE
Originally Posted by lampdogg
Please don’t get Mac going about the strength and conditioning issue.....

🤣 First thing I thought of when I saw that list again!


The Browns ownership and management team should be recognized and commended for listening to the input from their players who spoke up asking for improvements. Why wait for a new stadium before addressing franchise needs, such as improving the weight room..?


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So Berry is a failure but somehow it's also Stefanski's fault because he isn't a rah rah gut on the sidelines?

Let me tell you the story you have promoted over time. And you're not alone. If Stefanski calls the most predictable play and it fails it you hear something like this, "Why did he call that play? They knew that was coming!"

If he calls an unpredictable play and it doesn't work we hear, "Why would he call a play like that? That's not a play you call in that situation!"

The Browns can be goal to goal from the 3 yard line. Everyone and their brother expects a run play. So do you run a play the opposing D is expecting you to run and is set up to stop or do you call the unexpected play? In Stefanksi's case the fan base plays you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
So Berry is a failure but somehow it's also Stefanski's fault because he isn't a rah rah gut on the sidelines?

Let me tell you the story you have promoted over time. And you're not alone. If Stefanski calls the most predictable play and it fails it you hear something like this, "Why did he call that play? They knew that was coming!"

If he calls an unpredictable play and it doesn't work we hear, "Why would he call a play like that? That's not a play you call in that situation!"

The Browns can be goal to goal from the 3 yard line. Everyone and their brother expects a run play. So do you run a play the opposing D is expecting you to run and is set up to stop or do you call the unexpected play? In Stefanksi's case the fan base plays you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I think the fan base has been more than patient with Kevin. There’re of course those who criticize everything (and I unfortunately sometimes falls in to that category) but in general the criticism has been quite fair and accurate.

His game management has flaws.

That’s not the same as he has a weak personality just that there’s room for improvements on that area.
He isn’t that typical charismatic leader with a talent for communication and a natural authority. Kevin Stefanski is more of a school teacher. Correct and with a low intensity approach.
You see that in his press conferences. Often repeating the same mantra about doing better and almost never he loses his temper or show some passion, either negativ or positive emotional energy that creates engagement.

When it comes to calling plays it’s both wine and water. He has done magic most of the time when he has a good QB like a healthy Mayfield, or an experienced senior like Flacco.
Both of them are good at reading the defense, process information quite fast and can throw the ball fairly accurate. At the same time both of them have a tendency to make unnecessary throws in tight situations. For me there was no surprise that Flacco did well in his few games with us in 2023. Similar situation to when Baker played with the Rams.

Both Baker and Joe Flacco have shown that they can succeed in the right environment.

It only took Sean McVay a couple of hours to create a bond with Baker and inspire him to be the best version of himself despite being in an all time low with limited confidence and short of future options. Not many had immediately performed with so much belief like Baker did in such a pressing situation.

Todd Bowles took his time to evaluate Baker’s strengths and weaknesses and with a good understanding of how to deal with personalities like Baker and his experienced leadership he almost when the season started got the best version of Baker.

That’s how natural talented leaders deals with young men who often need guidance and encouragement to understand how to use their talent in the best possible way.

This’s one of the reasons I don’t see Stefanski as an elite HC.
Maybe in the future but as it stands there’s nothing in his past leadership that point in a direction of him being a natural authority.

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It's odd how people who have never coached football in their life have made themselves self appointed experts in NFL game management. I'm not surprised by that but it's quite odd none the less.


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Originally Posted by Floquinho
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
So Berry is a failure but somehow it's also Stefanski's fault because he isn't a rah rah gut on the sidelines?

Let me tell you the story you have promoted over time. And you're not alone. If Stefanski calls the most predictable play and it fails it you hear something like this, "Why did he call that play? They knew that was coming!"

If he calls an unpredictable play and it doesn't work we hear, "Why would he call a play like that? That's not a play you call in that situation!"

The Browns can be goal to goal from the 3 yard line. Everyone and their brother expects a run play. So do you run a play the opposing D is expecting you to run and is set up to stop or do you call the unexpected play? In Stefanksi's case the fan base plays you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I think the fan base has been more than patient with Kevin. There’re of course those who criticize everything (and I unfortunately sometimes falls in to that category) but in general the criticism has been quite fair and accurate.

His game management has flaws.

That’s not the same as he has a weak personality just that there’s room for improvements on that area.
He isn’t that typical charismatic leader with a talent for communication and a natural authority. Kevin Stefanski is more of a school teacher. Correct and with a low intensity approach.
You see that in his press conferences. Often repeating the same mantra about doing better and almost never he loses his temper or show some passion, either negativ or positive emotional energy that creates engagement.

When it comes to calling plays it’s both wine and water. He has done magic most of the time when he has a good QB like a healthy Mayfield, or an experienced senior like Flacco.
Both of them are good at reading the defense, process information quite fast and can throw the ball fairly accurate. At the same time both of them have a tendency to make unnecessary throws in tight situations. For me there was no surprise that Flacco did well in his few games with us in 2023. Similar situation to when Baker played with the Rams.

Both Baker and Joe Flacco have shown that they can succeed in the right environment.

It only took Sean McVay a couple of hours to create a bond with Baker and inspire him to be the best version of himself despite being in an all time low with limited confidence and short of future options. Not many had immediately performed with so much belief like Baker did in such a pressing situation.

Todd Bowles took his time to evaluate Baker’s strengths and weaknesses and with a good understanding of how to deal with personalities like Baker and his experienced leadership he almost when the season started got the best version of Baker.

That’s how natural talented leaders deals with young men who often need guidance and encouragement to understand how to use their talent in the best possible way.

This’s one of the reasons I don’t see Stefanski as an elite HC.
Maybe in the future but as it stands there’s nothing in his past leadership that point in a direction of him being a natural authority.

McVay and the Rams have been looking last few years for a successor to Stafford. The fact that he did not keep Baker speaks volumes. They had him in when Baker did not have many options, and they choose to not keep him.

As far as Tampa Bay is concerned, he has done well there and found a nice niche for himself there. A weak division and Baker has led his team to win the division twice. Good for Baker. The bottom line was he was not going to do that in the AFC North. He has skills far below both Burrow and Jackson and in his last 2 chances vs the Steelers he lost those games also to an aged Big Ben. There is a reason the Browns swung and missed with Deshaun Watson and his name is Baker. If Baker was the answer, there never would have been a Watson to flop here in Cleveland. The bottom line is drafting Baker was the real problem the Browns past FO swung and missed because they could have had Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson but instead, they drafted Baker. They tried and failed to right the wrong of the past regime. I am willing to give them another chance. At least they led the Browns to the playoffs twice. Did it once with Baker who by the way could not led the Browns to multiple game winning drives to beat an injured Mahomes less Chiefs led by Chad Henne. That should tell you all you need to know.


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Baker was still very immature when he was here. I find it hard to believe he would have done as well had he have stayed here. But after facing adversity and being forced to grow up or lose his NFL career he did grow up and mature. Say what you want about the division he plays in his numbers don't lie. He has developed into a very good QB.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
It's odd how people who have never coached football in their life have made themselves self appointed experts in NFL game management. I'm not surprised by that but it's quite odd none the less.

Then again, if the Browns would have followed the advice of some of these self appointed experts, they wouldn't be in this hellish position.


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I think that's sad more than anything. I used to joke around after the 2017 season saying "Man, you could have paid me half as much as Hue Jackson got, and I would have at least delivered the same record."


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Baker was still very immature when he was here. I find it hard to believe he would have done as well had he have stayed here. But after facing adversity and being forced to grow up or lose his NFL career he did grow up and mature. Say what you want about the division he plays in his numbers don't lie. He has developed into a very good QB.

Whether it was maturity, growing up, or being in the right system; you are totally correct - Baker has developed into a very good QB, the numbers don't lie.

There in itself is my problem with Stefanski. Whether people want to admit it or not, in 5-years with the Browns, Stefanski has been handed 2 first round selection QB's - Mayfield at #1 and Watson at #12 - and he has not been able to develop either QB into a franchise QB for the team. Now, people want to give this guy a shot at another potential 1st round selection at QB?

I keep hearing this garbage that Berry hasn't given Stefanski the players to be successful, especially at QB. Really - how many HC's are there in the NFL that are going into year 6 with the opportunity to again have a 1st round selection at QB to develop and still has their job after two highly visible failures?

Injuries, attitude, off the field issues, poor moves by the GM or owner, the excuses for his continued failures are rampant. I personally don't give a damn about the excuses. Excuses are like azzholes, everyone has one. The fact remains that Stefanski has been handed to him on a silver platter two 1st round selection QB's and totally failed in the development of both. The kicker in this whole thing is that 1 of them was a top 5 QB before he got here and the other is a top 5 QB after he left Cleveland. What the heck, name me a HC with that type of record who still has his job? What in Stefanski's history here in Cleveland makes anyone believe that he could suddenly develop a fist round selection at QB into the franchise player this team sorely needs? I can honesty say that this long-time fan has no faith in that happening. The history of Stefanski in Cleveland backs my stance on this feeling.


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Originally Posted by jfanent
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
It's odd how people who have never coached football in their life have made themselves self appointed experts in NFL game management. I'm not surprised by that but it's quite odd none the less.

Then again, if the Browns would have followed the advice of some of these self appointed experts, they wouldn't be in this hellish position.

You're speaking in terms of the draft. And then when you have an entire room of voices to choose from you will find people who get things right. Not the same person on a regular basis but different people at different times. That's cooked into the numbers. But then we are talking about game management and play calling which s totally different. You never know if a play would have worked if it was never called. You never know if a game plan that was never implemented would have worked. That's simply projection.


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Mayfield needed to face adversity and turmoil to grow up. Blaming that on Stefanski is just silly. And Watson? Are you serious? Watson made it plain he didn't want to be here to start with. Him coming here is because this FO and owner backed up the brinks truck. Supposedly he had already "developed" well before he got here. That's why he got that contract in the first place. They ignored every possible warning sign there was not to bring him here in the first place.

Then he used a QB they got off the couch to get to the playoffs. I see you have yourself convinced but I don't believe that will change the minds of those who have been paying attention.


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