DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum What can we expect from DW?

You don't pay 3 first round picks and 230 mil. not expecting to rely on the passing game more. They even hired new coaches on the O side of the ball to make that happen. You don't pay top 10 money to a QB to be a game manager.

I get it, but you can't have it both ways. You can't have a balanced attack with the pass and run. Then, expect Watson to throw 300 yards.

I don't care how good any QB is. It is impossible to average 15-20 yards per completion.

Dorsey must limit Chubb's carries to make people feel better about Watson. That does not make sense to me.

This is the last season Chubb is under contract. The previous coaches were great at mixing the run and the pass. For some reason they decided to change some of that staff including the OC.

Promoted to offensive coordinator prior to the 2022 season. In 2021, Ken Dorsey was promoted to passing game coordinator/ QB coach and went on to help Josh Allen record a 149.0 QB rating in the playoffs, which marked the highest all-time among QBs with at least 50 att.

Nothing about any of that would I find disappointing. Ken Dorsey is know to have been key in working with Josh Allen. The more you know the more it makes sense.

Exactly!

If they continue with the balanced attack, then Watson will not live up to the statistical expectations everyone wants.

I equally have no problem switching it up to a more pass-heavy game. I do think that is the direction.

But, you and I both know passing the ball more ups the risk factor. It is also more efficient running the ball when having a lead and when the weather is not ideal.

That said, the people who complain Watson is not living up to his contract will complain that Dorsey is not using Chubb effectively.

As I stated earlier, I believe the plan is to reduce Chubb's carries. We have seen Derrick Henry's numbers decline. I am curious how Baltimore uses Henry.

I do think the Browns will re-sign Chubb. It will be less than he receives now. I also think expectations will be lower as well. If Chubb wants to extend his career, he should accept a lessor role.

It was too late to edit my post but I wanted to add exactly what the Browns saw when they hired Dorsey....

In 2021 under Dorsey, Allen had 655 pass attempts with 415 completions. He passed for 4284 yards with 36 td's and 16 int's.

By contrast the Bills rushed the ball 461 times in 2021.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2021.htm

In 2022 Allen had 574 passing attempts for 4129 yards with 35 td's and 14 int's.

Once again in contrast they the Bills had 430 rushing attempts.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2022.htm

Nothing about that indicates they saw Dorsey as a man that ran this balanced system of run and pass. He heavily favored the pass. They had signed a QB who they gave up the farm to get and wanted an OC that they felt could get the most out of him the same way Dorsey had done in Buffalo. At least that makes the most sense to me.

Dorsey is not known for running a balanced attack. Unless you feel the Browns hired Dorsey to try and fit a square peg into a round hole.

I may just be speaking for myself, but I almost couldn't care less about the stats. Watson has, for long stretches, just not looked very good. I agree with everyone that says we're NOT trying to recreate the Houston offense in Cleveland... in that we are going for a much more balanced offense... and that will translate to less throws and less yardage than his Houston days.

My issue with that explanation is that that doesn't justify his poor performance. He looked extremely mediocre for long stretches. He has more excuses for poor play than he does "good" games.

I disagree and have tried to explain why multiple times.... I just want to see DW play well and execute the offense well. I don't care if he throws for 200 yards a game as long as he is a part of the reason why the team won, and NOT that the Browns won despite of his play. It's not hard ... and your comment that it's only the wins that count is off the mark.... 3 wins when the opposition scored an average of 3 points a game does not mean we are getting good performances from DW. I think your comment exemplifies the point Purp actually made about some fans supporting DW so much they find ways or are simply wanting to find an excuses for DW. Just my 2 cents and no more need be said on the matter. The one thing we can agree on is we both want him to do well and for the team to win.

Honestly, I don't know what to expect.

Will Dorsey have full range or does Stafanski pull in the reins having a mixture of both? I am leaning toward Stefanski combining talents. It is hard to believe Stefanski will give it up completely. That is why I think it will be more balanced.

Thus far, players are saying Dorsey is in control.

While in Buffalo, how much control did McDermott give Dorsey? McDermott being defensive-minded you wonder if there were limitations. Maybe it was full control at first and later it was dialed down which caused the discontent.

Now, I do have a crazy thought. What if both Dorsey and Stefanski call plays? Dorsey calls the plays when a more up-tempo scheme is required. Stefanski calls plays when it is more of a game-management situation.

Mgh, when Watson came to Cleveland, he was asked to do something entirely new and play with a wide range of talent.

Watson did not need to swing for the fences every time the offense was on the field. I believe when Chubb was lost it caused hiccups in the playcalling.

Did we see Watson's best? No. Stefanski/AVP were installing something new. Nothing was normal at the start of the season. Everything was an adjustment so there was no rhythm.

With that said, Watson won games but it was not pretty. Then the Baltimore game happened both good and bad.

Watson does not get to use "things were new" as an excuse. We've not one, but at least three, other QBs across two separate seasons come in and have greater success than him in the same situation while filling in for him.
All guys that had no familiarity with the other players, scheme, terminology, one guy who literally came off the couch, etc...

I remember Tom Bradey started every season out slow for New England. Everyone questioned whether he was done. By season's end, they were in the Super Bowl. Their offense was not even new.

Stefanski and Watson never worked together for a full season. Watson never played under the Kubiak/Shanahan scheme.

Flacco was very fluent in the Kubiak scheme.

I would not say DTR and Walker had greater success.

Brissett went 3-5 in the first half of the 2022 season.

Somehow they think the FO and Stefanski looked at the resume' of Dorsey and saw that he ran a pass heavy O and said, "Hey, let's hire a guy who runs on O differently than what we want here in Cleveland!"

Go figure.

Your hate is real.

So says the dude who calls Watson "The Predator" with every post he makes...that is rich, Pit.

There's the man and there's the football player. Sadly you can't comprehend the difference.

and I don't think either one is very good.

What I think of him as a man is obvious and I'm fairly sure the reason for that is obvious. I'm not sure what he is as a football player but the returns thus far haven't been good.

Sticking to performance - this sentence could have saved pages or posts. It's hard (impossible) to debate the accuracy of that simple statement. The rest of the discussion about 'why' is mostly deflection.

What can we expect this year and in the remaining years of his contract is a different discussion and hopefully a different conclusion when we see it play out.

Whether it was a good or bad trade - also a different discussion, but based on the simple summary of the returns to date not being good - pretty hard to make a case for it being a good trade. Personally I find it impossible to find a way to say it was a good trade. Good to move on at QB - sure. Good that the team is progressing despite the trade, sure. Neither of which makes it a good trade. It's not even debatable in my eyes. I'm looking forward to this season and hoping for the best - which is pretty much the same place I have been every summer, every year since 1999.

Just a couple of quick comments on Watson with my two cents added.

Watson was sought out by the Browns to be the type of QB he was in Houston - the difference maker that they didn't believe Mayfield was capable of being. Anyone that believes the Browns would have (or did) give up those draft picks and that fully guaranteed contract to a player to just manage a balanced attack, throw for 200 yds as long as we win, and get to the playoffs is just lying too themselves.

Watson was acquired to be the face of the franchise. A QB in the same mold as a Brady, Mahomes, Manning or Rodgers that on any given Sunday could go out there and put the team on his back and throw for 400 plus yards to out duel those other elite teams in the league. The expectation level was to have a feared QB like the others mentioned that if the opponent gives the ball back to the Browns in the final 2-minutes of a half or game you're in trouble because he's going to score. That in itself was a major issue with many here about Mayfield. The Browns surely had zero intention of having the league's highest cap charge QB going into the 2024 season to have him run a balanced attack offense and as long as they get some wins it's acceptable. The acceptable play is consistent high-level play which as of today - Watson has been a terrible failure at achieving.

Enter Ken Dorsey. I'm mixed on the hire but not naive enough to not admit that there had to be a change in the offensive direction. Dorsey has some excellent history and is a positive coach that can certainly add to the Browns. However, let's not kid ourselves, Dorsey was fired by the Bills last year after 10 games because they had just lost its 5th game of the season making them 5-5. McDermott called the offense inconsistent, predictable, and not feared. Sports writers was referring to the Bills offense as a dumpster fire. The Bills were on the verge of being locked out of the playoffs and a huge step back from where the team was in 2022 where they went 13-3. Post Dorsey, the Bills went 6-1 over the final 7 games and won the AFC East.

Dorsey wasn't hired as OC to be like the Bills OC of 2023. Dorsey was hired to be like the 2022 OC and make Watson like the 2020 Houston playmaker again. As it has been said, people are trying to support DW so much they find ways or are simply wanting to find an excuses for DW. Bottom-line: The Browns sought out top 5 elite talent, they are paying for top 5 elite talent, and the Browns should expect nothing less than top 5 elite talent. After 2-years, they have received only top 28 performance. Just my 2 cents but if you set the bar low that's what you'll get in return. To date, the ROI is nowhere close to being achieved.

Funny, managing a balanced attack worked for Tom Bradey.

Also, I guess if you want Watson to match his numbers in Houston you'll be OK with single-digit wins? Watson was throwing those 300+ yard games because he was playing from behind.

Lastly, for Watson to meet your expectations, Chubb's numbers will be greatly reduced. I guess meeting costs for one player justifies underutilizing another.

To me, I want to see this offense run like a well-oiled machine where defenses cannot dictate to the offense. When scores are needed, this offense produces at a high rate. When they want to rest the defense, they keep the opposition's offense sitting on the bench.

Having big number stats does nothing if this offense cannot play complementary football to the defense and special teams.

You may wish to take a closer look. Brady's numbers do not indicate what you're claiming. In 2022 Brady threw for 4,694 yards. In 2021 he threw for 5,316. In 2020 he threw for 4,633 yards. In fact from 2011 through 2022 there was only one season where he threw for under 4000 yards and there were two seasons where he threw for over 5000 yards.

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/average-yards-per-game-by-tom-brady-career

Now you can point to average yards per game if you like. You can point to anything else you like. But Brady was a prolific passing QB no matter how you slice it.

What you want to see and what you will see may be drastically different.

So according to you Brady is your perfect comparison to watson in terms of a balanced offense and yet expecting less out of watson is your expected outcome?

People are getting so locked into the stats and not into results.

My ideal situation is this offense dictates what it wants to do when they need to do it.

There is too much talent to expect Watson to perform at a high statistical average. Honestly, it is not needed.

That is not to say Watson can't or shouldn't put up high numbers. There will be games where Watson will throw for 400 yards.

The expectation for this offense should focus more on the performance and how Watson directs it.

Technically, this offense should be close to unstoppable.

He'll either perform to the level that justifies the draft picks and contract he is being paid or he won't. All the excuses and rationalizations to the contrary won't change that.

I really don't feel hardly anyone has been skeptical. Skeptical would mean that people have made up their minds in advance that watson will play poorly. That's quite different than saying we have no idea how he will perform moving forward and only time will give us the answer to that. Actually I believe that's being more open minded than people who have their minds made up already as to whether he will play good or bad in the future.

How is not knowing either way make you skeptical? Anyone can be easily convinced based on his play moving forward.

The biggest question fans can't agree on is the expectation level.

Other than a few, the belief is Watson played in the average to above-average range. The number of games played is short so it is difficult to judge.

This leads to the second biggest question, is Watson capable of playing at a high level?

Today you have Patrick Mahomes, Brock Purdy, Lamar Jackson, Joe Burrow, Justin Herbert, Aaron Rodgers, Josh Allen, Matthew Stafford, Jalen Hurts, and Jared Goff to compete against. Even being above average may not get you into the top 10. I cannot remember the last time the league had this many good QBs. The second ten is not that lacking in talent.

Can Watson play well enough to crack the top 10? Even in his best days, it would be a difficult task.

Not to be picky, but if you demand top 5 pay based on your performance then you should be expected to deliver top 5 play. Claiming there are also other good QB's out there is just a cop out. If you and the Browns expectation level is lower than top 10 because of the talent of the other QB's being better, then the Browns either pay him bottom half money or they clearly overpaid for the subpar talent. You cannot have it both ways. As of today, the Browns have grossly overpaid for the level of performance that they have received. That statement isn't debatable. That certainly doesn't mean he can't or won't turn it around, but he's been a shadow of himself since 2020 and not being at least a top 10 QB this year is going to be unacceptable in my eyes no matter how many games the team wins. JMHO, the Browns won 11 games last year with a stable of QB's playing in 12 of the 17 games making 6.942M total for all 4 on the season. If I'm paying 46M AGAIN this year, I should expect no less than 11 wins and a minimum of a top 5 season performance for a supposed elite Top 5 QB. Otherwise, bring me back the 6.942M gang of 4 and I'll take the 11 wins and save about 40M.

Actually, that's the opposite of skeptical. That's why he posted the definition.

Then we all get to say "it's about time you showed up and did your job".


There's no extra reward for doing what you're paid to do, and it doesn't matter if your job is to show up on time to sweep a floor, or be on time for your shift to assemble cars in the plant, or show up for your teammates on the field --- you do what you're paid to do and you get the nice check mark next to your name that says "Meets Expectations" on your review.

Yes, waiting to base your findings on the evidence you see means you're skeptical.

At least in some people's world.

What can we expect from DW?

Another injury prone year.


We better have a viable backup. It’s a shame we couldn’t sign Flacco for a couple more years.

Out of the past 5 seasons which watson has played, he missed games due to injury in only 1 of those 5 seasons.

Actually, Watson has been in the league 7 years.

2017 - 7 of 16 games = 9 missed due to injury
2018 - 17 of 17 games played
2019 - 17 of 18 games played (sat out last game of regular season)
2020 - 16 of 16 games played
2021 - 0 of 17 games played (refused to play)
2022 - 6 of 17 games played (NFL Suspension)
2023 - 6 of 18 games played = 12 missed due to injury

7-year career - 69 of 119 games played = 57.98% participation rate over 7-year career (last 3 years 23.08% participation rate)

Games missed due to injury = 21 or 17.65% historical injury rate.

It’s my expectation. I’ll be surprised if he isn’t out for a good chunk of the season. And we still don’t have a viable back up. It’s literally the definition of insane. Every year it’s the same. Browns QB’s fall like the leaves off of trees in September and October. If it wasn’t for Flacco last year we wouldn’t had made the playoffs. We need another experienced QB in the wings.

Winston under Stefanski and Dorsey has the ability to be every bit as good as Flacco was last year. I don’t think backup QB is an issue at all.

The issue with Watson is between the ears. He’s got a slow processor and prefers to turn everything into a poorly timed play. There’s no amount of spring practice in shorts and 7 on 7s that will tell us anything at all on if he will improve in that area. Some would argue you can’t.

I think the thing Watson has going for him is he’s a bit of a gamer…he gets better as the game goes along and the team seems to genuinely like and play for him. Other than that it’s a bit of crapshoot. I think honestly we just need him not to crap the bed. Play solid to above average with a couple of splash plays a game.