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Now, when you are ripping me, please remember that I am only 14 and that I am not a football expert.
You won't get any rippage from me, Deepthreat. This is as well-put-together and thoughtful a post as I have read in ages... on any board.
You may not think of yourself as a "football expert," but you certainly have shown us that you have a sharp mind, good communication skills, and some real knowlege of your subject matter.
You've probably heard this before- because it's true... you can become anything you want to be. You obviously have the necessary tools. If what you want to be happens to be a so-called "football expert," you're off to a great start.
Most impressive, young Dawg.
I was going to send you this post in a PM, but I felt that you deserved the public props. Keep up the good work... and know this much: I'm one Olde Dawg who will read every single one of your posts. You've earned my respect.
best regards,
Clemdawg
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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That's the spirit.  I agree........and it baffles me that people aren't happier w/our season than they are. Sheesh...........I always was Mr. Negativity, but I'm ecstatic about how well this team played. They improved greatly and were fun to watch. Our offense was as exciting as any O in the league. We were never really out of any game. We played w/passion and effort. Our defense sucked, but they made some big fourth down stops. The team grew a lot this year and there is a lot to look forward to.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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How is it a poblem?
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It's a poblem if it creates a controversy... this year went like this for most... Frye starts and is quickly shown the door.. in comes Anderson who the vast majority of people thought was keeping the position warm for Quinn until somewhere around the bye week... then as Anderson played well enough for us to win some games, more and more people began to believe he should finish the season... than as we almost made the playoffs, there is now a big discussion as to who is better..... So if you start next season, and let's say that Quinn does win the starting job, he may struggle at first, heck he may struggle for a while (I don't personally feel he will struggle to awfully bad, but I also believe the margin for error in our schedule next year is much less than it was this year)... but a lot of fans, well enough to make some noise anyway, will have selectively forgotten DA's struggles of this year and will only remember his TDs and his dramatic finishes, even if many of them were overcoming his own deficiencies... So how long before we are in the middle of a QB controversy? That, as I see it, is the big poblem...
DC:
What you propose is entirely possible. QB contorversies have been known to rip franchises apart in the past.
Call me a homer, but I just don't see that happening here. Not now.
Biggest reason: the front office and coaching staff won't let that happen on their watch.
Let's be real here- after Game One of the season:
1. People in the stands (and on message boards, in bars and living rooms across Browns Nation) were calling for Romeo's head
2. Our starting QB had just been traded.
3. Our *new* starting QB was untested, unproven, and couldn't win the starting job in TC.
4. Media and public alike were shaking their heads at the sorry state of the Browns.
... and what did our FO/staff/coaches/team do? They listened to each other and nobody else. They kept on the path, won a buttload of games, and proved that they could play in this league. If ever there was a team that was ripe for an implosion, it was the Browns on the Monday after Game One.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again right here and now: a controversy is only a controversy if it exists in the locker room. We fans and all those media types can say whatever we want to, but those words only matter if THE TEAM chooses to heed them.
Since Randy hired Phil & RAC, this team's FO has shown incredible fortitude when it comes to not bowing to public pressure... and their fans were rewarded with footbal that was as exciting and satisfying as any they've seen since the last decade of the last century.
If fans were allowed to run the team, we'd be in worse shape than we were in 2000. I think our FO knows that, as does our coaching staff and players. Don't forget- they were the only ones seeing sunshine when all of us were seeing the sky falling in big truck-sized chunks. Turns out, they were right- not us. (Wow! What a shocker!!!)
I'm not worried that keeping DA (at whatever price we pay) will rip the locker room.... mainly because I believe that Phil and Romeo have a stronger grip on the team that we fans (or the vulturesque media) will ever have. And that's the way it should be.
If DA goes, I hope we get good value for trading him. If he stays, we'll be OK, too- whether he ends up taking us to a ring, or sits the bench while BQ takes us there.
We're in good hands here. I know that's a hard one for many Dawgs to belive after all these years of foolishness, ineptitude and disappointment.... but it's true. Professionals are now handling this team.
I could be wrong, but I don't think so.....
.02
Last edited by Clemdawg; 01/06/08 03:15 AM.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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If I EVER sent you a PM it has to have been years ago. Go ahead send it back to me I'd love to read it. I'll wait.......
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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I've been reading these battles across different threads and it is really bothers me.
I find it very disconserting that if someone dares call people out on what they say about DA they are attacked. The same thing happened to me when I thought drafting Quinn was a mistake.
It bothers me as well, especially when there is actually good debate going on and then someone posts something silly.......and I'll use one of Vers' examples that he is dead nuts on the money with----selective stats from the Buffalo blizzard game. Give me a freaking break. 
Then things turn personal.
By the same token, I'll use another one of Vers' statements--and I'm paraphrasing because I'm not going to hunt for it. He said something along the lines about how the decision is not ours so we need to shut up and let the FO handle it. Yet he continues to stir the pot with his comments.....and Vers you know I respect you and your opinion A GREAT DEAL, but you seem to be whacked out lately.
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The fact is a think the mob tends to rule on this board. If someone dares post against the norm and dares to stand up to comments by others than thet get attacked. This isn't just about Vers, but other posters such as Peen. IMO they have way different football IQs but the treatment is the same.
Some people get what they "ask for." Me included. A lot of times (as in Peen's comment about the OL not being that bad in previous years) Sorry to use you as an example Peen, but that comment is ludicrous and totally without merit. That's not my opinion, that's a viable fact. When people make things up, or use selective stats.....then they stand a very good chance of having the "mob" after them. 
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I do know that this is the best Browns board on the net, period. We have more knowledgeable posters compared to flaming idiots around. Maybe some of you should take timeouts and go over to Browns Chat. That board is so bad that for every decent post (there are quite a few) you have to read 20 by people who act like 12 year olds.
Can't say it better than that.....and that is what makes it difficult sometimes. When you see an inane post, it irritates to an extent because you know that as a general rule that person "knows better" and it does make you wonder if it is agenda driven.
But what is our agenda? TO WIN A SUPER BOWL. The fact that we have differing opinions at times on the best way to get there is what makes this place click......and it makes the time between the last game and the draft and the opening of camp come a little quicker.....seemingly. 
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Toad is another one. He has hated DA from day one (just like me). He has also reviesed his opinions through the season (just like me). He still hates on DA, not because of a bias, but because of trusting what he has seen.
And I am the same way........haven't always hated him, but using my eyes over the course of the season tells me that we need to get something for him and move along. My mind also tells me at the same time he is young and may be able to be coached up to overcome his deficiencies.......it's an inner turmoil that I bet a lot of folks go through. We saw it throughout the season when people would post if we were gonna see the good DA or the bad DA this week. 
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I know I shouldn't really post this. I should have left it for someone like ddubia who has the respect of all most all posters ( and deservedly so) and who doesn't rant like I do. He is much more articulate and he can actually spell.
If there were ranking stars like previously for a short spell on the old board I would give both you and ddubia top10 rankings for most articulate posters on this forum. You can always back up your opinion on any topic without displaying any agendaism.... 
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When I tore Ammo a new ass for his Frye antics, (he still won't reply to me even when I respond to him in agreement), you stepped in and scolded me about being so severe. And you were right and I quit without responding to you about it. I felt foolish for my rant.
Pdawg has rightfully taken me to the woodshed as well......and Ammo won't respond to my legitimate questions either, and that also leads to the mob actions at times. If you're "called out" on something, then man up. If you're posting opinions, then realize they are just that and that doesn't make you 100% correct.
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People should be allowed to post their opinions. But when they use misleading stats to try and prove their point it waters down the knowledge base of the board as some will see it as making sense and use it as part of their own opinion. Non-facts get passed along as facts and that doesn't do anyone any good. Expecially those who are here to learn and are fooled by incomplete thoughts and misleading "facts".
Bing Bada Bing........someone posts crap, and then someone else sees and believes that crap and the pile of crap grows larger.
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Well, you sent me three right before I was suspended. Do you want me to post them on this thread, or send them to you? The language is pretty bad. Your call. Shep..............I've always been whacked. But, thanks for pointing that out. And I suppose that would not be considered name calling on this board, eh? 
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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I rest my case...... *sigh*
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You won't get any rippage from me, Deepthreat. This is as well-put-together and thoughtful a post as I have read in ages... on any board.
I agree, good read, and more importantly, you can write . I can't tell you how many papers I had to read last semester from people who couldn't write....in college! Out of a class of 60, I would say there were only about 15-20 students who actually turned in a solid paper.
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Some people get what they "ask for." Me included. A lot of times (as in Peen's comment about the OL not being that bad in previous years) Sorry to use you as an example Peen, but that comment is ludicrous and totally without merit.
No problem.
It was always said in the context of the qb being able to make his line look bad as well...the problems of the past weren't exclusive to the O-line, which seemed to be the prevalent thinking..
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I understood what you were saying. Don't know how others mis-construed it.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Peen I understand what you are saying. But you said what you did on the premise that DA is the starting QB and BQ is the backup. In that scenario sure it doesn't matter.
But there are some here...me included that feel strongly that BQ will win out in any QB competition and become the starter. Then what? That 1st n 3rd round minimum you lay out there is gone. And what if there is no contract offer and he only agrees to the tender for one year. DA will then be a UFA in 09 with no compensation not even much from the NFL FA compensation if he doesn't start in 08. We lose all compensation???
I agree with you here EO, I think BQ would beat out DA. But you and I don't take part in nor do we see BQ on the day to day, in practice or even in game situations that we can actually say that he would beat out DA. We only have opinion to augment our thoughts. We do however know that while DA has his problems he can in fact operate our offense, and it goes without saying I think he could, or we could do better. Given the line, and the skill players he is surrounded by. He is in the best of situations to succeed IMHO, and has done just that.
I completely disagree with the idea that DA at this juncture would be worth a 1st and a 3rd, no way sorry, it aint going to happen, IMHO. So to me your idea that we would get a 1st and a 3rd is way way off the mark!! Maybe a 1st and that is it, and then a mid to late 1st round pick, nothing more no way.
Now granted there may be a team that see's themselfs as being a QB away from being a legit contender minus a QB, and they will overpay for DA. I don't see Miami, or Atlanta as being serious contenders for DA's services for that reason. Lets put it this way. If the Browns would have gone after DA last off season, and had they given up a 1st and a 3rd for him, what would you have thought of that move, EO?
I think I can answer for you here, but I know what I would have thought, and it would have been somewhere along the lines of get PS to Belvue ASAP, after you fire his ass, he has lost his friggin mind. That in my mind takes Miami off the table, along with several other possible suitors. The Bears, the Vikes, perhaps the Skins, is or will be the only taems with any interest. But I have a hard time believing that anyone that is more then a solid QB away from being at the least playoff bound, would even consider DA to start with, given the price tag that will be attached, and only for a 1st, maybe a MS or slightly better deal, and that is it.
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It is pretty simple to me. A team does not put out a Franchise caliber QB who is the ripe age of 24 (will be 25 mid June) out on the market. They would sign him long term and eat the fact that they spent what they did on BQ.
Once its out there its rediculous to set parameters.
Top 10 1st rounder only.
1st rounder and more.
Fact is if he is out there the FO clearly does not feel he's a Franchise type QB. They will not dump him but they will take what the market bares for him. Who sets that market...the fans? You? Me? The Media? no the GMs around the league do.
I think your ahead of yourself here EO, sorry I do. 1st you think that DA is going to get us a 1st and a 3rd, sorry that in and of itself says to me that he is a franchise QB, and because we already have our supposed franchise QB, we don't need a second. Then you say that a team doesn't let a franchise QB hit the open market. It's not an open market he is a RFA, that is far cry from being the open market you suppose it to be.
I am certain that the Browns will make a contract offer to DA, even if they don't see him as being the QB of the future for the Browns. Because you sign someone doesn't mean they have got to be on your opening day roster. By signing him they would be sitting in the drivers seat long term, and sitting never hurt MS value so that idea is out the window too.
The only way the Browns let DA hit the RFA market is if his agent thinks that his value is higher then the Browns offer. That would mean IMHO that his agent thinks DA can get a better deal elsewhere, and he IMHO would also have to consider that DA's suitor would be willing to pay the Browns price, a 1st and 3rd, again no way, he will not get even one offer sheet, IMHO. The idea that he would if I were to take your opinion is so far off it's not even close to reality. Again would you pony up a 1st and a 3rd for DA's services?
There is IMHO a very very real possiblity that we will in fact re-sign DA long term. If the deal is close to fair in DA's mind, and if DA considers the finacial side of getting a sizable bonus, along with better then tender price tag now vs next off season, I can't see any reason he wouldn't re-up, honestly. Again the fact that he is under contract doesn't mean he is a part of the Browns in 2008 or at some point down the road after next season. I think that his agent would be wise to listen and without any assurance that DA would be the starter as some have said. That crap is out the window IMHO. I think DA and his agent both know that BQ will likely unseat DA, no question there IMHO. And they are also likely to know that the Browns will deal him away at some point, but that IMHO will not stop DA or his agent from signing a long term deal, money will be the deciding factor, period. DA will be a starter either here or somewhere else in the long term either way, so why not take the money NOW vs the tender?
I can't believe you believe some of the stuff you have put out there for others to consider EO, sorry I don't for one moment believe you.
You said in another thread that DA didn't adjust well to the blitz. EO that is exactly where DA has been most successful. It has been when teams have dropped back in coverage that DA has faultered, and you know it too. DA has consistantly beatin the blitz, and the man coverage that comes about as a result of blitzing. You say he was blitzed in the 2nd half of the Pitt game and couldn't beat the Blitz, again wrong he couldn't adjust to not being blitzed and he ripped the Pitt defense up when they blitzed in the 1st half, thats why they stopped blitzing. That and they couldn't get to him because of our great O Line. He couldn't adjust to taking the underneath stuff, and again you know it. I couldn't believe you said it, and actually went back and watched the game again, and sure enough you where way way off the mark with that post. I think your using your status and crediblity to mislead people, shame on you for that.
Now EO I am NOT trying to pick a fight with you, honestly, but you are misleading people, and that aint cool. 
And I want to add something else to this whole let DA go idea. Who are the Browns going to bring in to back up BQ, if we decide to let DA leave? Please don't tell me KD, because if that happens and BQ is hurt, we can flush our season down the dumper. No matter how good our presumed draft picks are as a result of a DA deal, we can reach for the handle if we don't have a capable backup and KD aint that, IMHO
JMHO
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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I understood what you were saying. Don't know how others mis-construed it.
Maybe I am wrong, but I think he is going back several years v using a recent example when I did say the line wasn't as bad as everybody else claimed.
But I don't think I ever tried to say it was a good line
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Do what you feel is best. Post 'em or PM them. I still think you have me confused with someone else. But go for it.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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I think your using your status and crediblity to mislead people, shame on you for that....Now EO I am NOT trying to pick a fight with you, honestly, but you are misleading people, and that aint cool.
#1. I think you just did. You're calling him a calculating liar.
#2. You don't have to keep posting IMHO because it must obviously be your honest opinion or you wouldn't be saying what you're saying. Unless you lie a lot (except when you say IMHO).
#gmstrong
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And I want to add something else to this whole let DA go idea. Who are the Browns going to bring in to back up BQ, if we decide to let DA leave? Please don't tell me KD, because if that happens and BQ is hurt, we can flush our season down the dumper. No matter how good our presumed draft picks are as a result of a DA deal, we can reach for the handle if we don't have a capable backup and KD aint that
Name all of the teams that CAN afford to lose their starting QB please........
There are hardly enough STARTING caliber QB's to go around the league, let alone backups. Depth is an excellent thing, yes.....I agree entirely and wouldn't mind having them both. However, if there is any way we can get some first day help to shore up our Defense then that's the route we should go........
IMHO.....of course.
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I will always believe that a bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush. What I mean is this we have DA, he may not be the best we can do in terms of a QB, and if thats the point, I agree. But hell man if BQ stinks the place up then what. And then if BQ gets hurt after playing well we need a guy that can fill his shoes for a game or 2 and we got what KD.
If either God forbid of these 2 things happens we can reach for the handle. I agree with risk when risk is warranted or called for, I am not so certain that I would risk the loss of a QB that we all know we can win with, for a dream or fantasy at this point. And while I agree that I too think BQ is the better opition, nobody can say for certain he is. Insurance or the safe choice would be what I would choose at this point knowing what I know. I admit I do not know how BQ has progressed and I can't progect where he will be come the start of next season. The only people that can do that are PS and RAC, and Chud. If ME, I, MYSELF knowing what I do as limited as that is had to make that choice I choose caution when it comes to my QB, the position is the most critical to the success of any team. I still say nobody will take DA for what some of you think we will be offered. In fact I will lay odds against DA even getting a offer sheet, based on a 1st and 3rd. So that fantasy is just that a fantasy, and nothing more. In a dream world it would be great to make this deal, but it will never happen, and less then that IMHO is a risk not worth taking if I run the Browns. Not risking the season to come and those to follow, has a lot to be said for it, IMHO.
JMHO
Brown to the Bone
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I think your using your status and crediblity to mislead people, shame on you for that....Now EO I am NOT trying to pick a fight with you, honestly, but you are misleading people, and that aint cool.
#1. I think you just did. You're calling him a calculating liar.
#2. You don't have to keep posting IMHO because it must obviously be your honest opinion or you wouldn't be saying what you're saying. Unless you lie a lot (except when you say IMHO).
No I believe what I say, and what I said is that I think EO knows that nobody is going to offer a 1st and a 3rd for DA. And I think you know it too. If you want to say something about my not stating the truth then fine do it, or better yet prove it. Or state why you think I am wrong.
EO knows that I respect him, but he does get a bit testy when others don't agree with him, and I wanted him to know that, I wasn't trying to pick a fight with him, but I don't mind picking a fight with his ideas about the DA and a 1st and 3rd. I don't mind pointing out that I do not agree with his use of IMHO false impressions of the faults DA has. And again I stated that point. I truthfully tried not to turn it into a personal thing but rather a here is what you said, and this is why I don't agree. And further I never said I thought he was a liar, I think he should know that we are not going to get a 1st and 3rd for DA, unless someone is out of their friggin mind. I say the same to you as I said in my 1st post. If PS had done this deal last off season what would you be thinking about PS. Would you want our FO to pull a deal for a QB like DA for a 1st and 3rd. It's not ever going to happen, and I think you and EO are smart enough to know that much. So if you say repeatedly that we can land a 1st and 3rd and you know that it more then likely won't ever happen? Are you misleading people, sorry I think you are..ThatsMHO.
The reasons I said I am not trying to start a fight is becuase I knew the board would likely not want me to say or point out where a don't agree when it comes to one of their star posters. And sure enough here you all are to take up EO's cause just like I thought.
I hope like hell that EO realises that I was in fact honest about saying what I think and that I am not trying to just stir the pot. I guess people read what they want into things but trust me its not there..
Brown to the Bone
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You just keep digging a deeper hole there dude. For one thing, I don't ever remember myself ever saying that we will get a 1st and 3rd for DA. I may have said that would be great if Phil decided to try and go that route and it worked out that way. But I never predicted nor even leaned toward that opinion. I'm not here to defend anyone's elses opinon but my own. But I will say this: If you're telling someone that you think they are using their status and credibility on the board to mislead people then you are in fact calling them a liar. A purposeful liar. Especially when you go on to say, "shame on you". Dude, I can't read that any other way. Quote:
The reasons I said I am not trying to start a fight is becuase I knew the board would likely not want me to say or point out where a don't agree when it comes to one of their star posters. And sure enough here you all are to take up EO's cause just like I thought.
You must have a severe inferiority complex. Star poster indeed! You sound like you want to be somebody else.
And yes, I will stand up for those whom I know for a fact are not misleading liars every day of the week, and obviously twice on Sunday.
Saying what you think and making accusations are two different things and you can't hide a bad motive under a good one.
Insofar as responding to anything you've said regarding DA or the team it's the very least important thing I can imagine right now.
#gmstrong
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I asked you to name a team that can lose their starting QB and you said: Quote:
I will always believe that a bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush. What I mean is this we have DA, he may not be the best we can do in terms of a QB, and if thats the point, I agree. But hell man if BQ stinks the place up then what. And then if BQ gets hurt after playing well we need a guy that can fill his shoes for a game or 2 and we got what KD.
If either God forbid of these 2 things happens we can reach for the handle. I agree with risk when risk is warranted or called for, I am not so certain that I would risk the loss of a QB that we all know we can win with, for a dream or fantasy at this point. And while I agree that I too think BQ is the better opition, nobody can say for certain he is. Insurance or the safe choice would be what I would choose at this point knowing what I know. I admit I do not know how BQ has progressed and I can't progect where he will be come the start of next season. The only people that can do that are PS and RAC, and Chud. If ME, I, MYSELF knowing what I do as limited as that is had to make that choice I choose caution when it comes to my QB, the position is the most critical to the success of any team. I still say nobody will take DA for what some of you think we will be offered. In fact I will lay odds against DA even getting a offer sheet, based on a 1st and 3rd. So that fantasy is just that a fantasy, and nothing more. In a dream world it would be great to make this deal, but it will never happen, and less then that IMHO is a risk not worth taking if I run the Browns. Not risking the season to come and those to follow, has a lot to be said for it, IMHO.
You tend to type a lot when you post, but you actually say little.......you don't have to write 500 words to say 50 words worth of stuff. Ya know?
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I am certain that the Browns will make a contract offer to DA, even if they don't see him as being the QB of the future for the Browns. Because you sign someone doesn't mean they have got to be on your opening day roster.
You're insinuating that the Browns would sign Anderson, then turn right around and ship him off to the highest bidder.
THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
Anderson isn't going to sign a team-friendly contract that lets them determine where he goes If he signs, it'll be a BIG contract, one that ensures he's our QB for the present AND the future. He and his agent would be absolute and complete IDIOTS if they allowed the Browns to sign him to a friendly deal that controls Anderson's destiny.
Are the Browns going to offer him a contract? Sure, I'd throw the line in the water and hope for a bite, but unless the intent is to make DA the long-term starter, a deal isn't going to get signed. No way in Hell.
To put it simply, the ethics behind signing a player with the idea they'd ship him off to the highest bidder is so unthinkably bad that we'd be a doomed franchise if we even attempted it. We'd lose the credibility that we're building, and we'd NEVER be able to sign the free agents we want.
The ONLY way a deal gets done with Anderson is if they Tender him, then work out a "sign and trade" deal with another team. But that is NOT what you're suggesting, not even remotely close. Those are two completely different animals.
Then there's another problem: What if the rest of the league watches film, and decides that Anderson isn't worth anything via trade? Anderson does NOT want to sit back and collect a paycheck without playing. He won't be happy riding the bench with a long-term contract that nobody wants
By the way, Quinn wouldn't like that scenario either, and no matter what anyone says, that's something the organization knows is important.
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And I want to add something else to this whole let DA go idea. Who are the Browns going to bring in to back up BQ, if we decide to let DA leave? Please don't tell me KD, because if that happens and BQ is hurt, we can flush our season down the dumper.
First and foremost, no, Dorsey will never be our #2 QB  He wasn't given a new contract to be that. No way in Hell, hehehe. I suppose I could see a scenario where we draft a young kid and call him #3, then if the need arrises during the season, Dorsey suddenly gets bumped back to #2 while the new guy takes over. Simply put, Dorsey is here because of his abilities from the bench, not on the field.
Secondly, the FO won't worry about finding a primary backup. They can be had all over the place. That concern won't preclude them from moving Anderson if they feel a deal being offered is good enough.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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No I believe what I say, and what I said is that I think EO knows that nobody is going to offer a 1st and a 3rd for DA.
I'm afraid NOBODY knows that Brown...
In any other year, maybe not,, in fact, probably not. But this year is a little different in that there are a number of teams that are in need of a starting QB. And there really aren't that many to go around.
Miami (they took that beck kid last year, who knows what parcells thinks)
Atlanta (they are a mess)
Baltimore (Troy Smith may be the answer, then again maybe not)
Chicago (they are a mess)
Carolina (Is Delhomme ever coming back in on piece)
Those are really for sure...
Possibles are:
San Francisco
Minnesota
Detroit
KC (if someone doesn't step up)
Philadelphia (depending on McNabb)
Houston (not settled yet, is schaub the answer)
Tampa (they have 500 QB's,, but only Garcia is real, and he's 105 years old)
Note: Tampa doesn't really have 500 QB's and Garcia is only 97 years old
Point being, with that many potential holes to fill, DA becomes a hot commodity..
I don't remember you saying you don't like DA, so I'm just gonna assume you don't think he's worth a 1st and a 3rd.. But I bet that if you had a team that was fairly solid in most all areas and all you needed was a solid QB... DA would be a pretty sound pick up,, even for a 1st and 3rd.
Teams fitting that description are Minnesota, Chicago, Houston, Tampa, Carolina and maybe Atlanta.
You do the math, I think its a sellers market and the Browns are the sellers..
DA won 10 games,, no matter what else, with him at the helm, we won 10 games... that is NOT chopped liver ya know!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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... I knew the board would likely not want me to say or point out where a don't agree when it comes to one of their star posters.
Perhaps "the board" just happens to disagree with you. Contrary to what some (especially newer members) think, there isn't a clique here ready to pounce on someone that disagrees with the company line. For the most part, they are passionate, knowledgeable fans debating Browns football. If you follow along, you'll find that even the "stars" disagree at times.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Just a general reply .....
I am reminded of a situation very close to home ......
Remember when our prized free agent LeCharles Bentley was lost for 2 seasons on the very 1st snap of his 1st practice with the Browns?
What happens if that happens to "QB A or B", and we have shipped the other guy off for a draft pick? The QB is arguably the most important position on any NFL team. We have one guy who has proven he can win ..... and another guy with a world of promise. What the hell os wrong with having depth for another year at the single most important position o the team?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Do what you feel is best. Post 'em or PM them. I still think you have me confused with someone else. But go for it.
As I always say, "Post'em if you got'em"! Or something like that.........
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And I am the same way........haven't always hated him, but using my eyes over the course of the season tells me that we need to get something for him and move along. My mind also tells me at the same time he is young and may be able to be coached up to overcome his deficiencies.......it's an inner turmoil that I bet a lot of folks go through.
Not me ....
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What the hell os wrong with having depth for another year at the single most important position o the team?
Probably because there's only one football.
For argument sake...let's just call DA a first round pick (because he played pretty well and we may tender him).....and we have BQ, a first round pick.
Do teams often have 2 first round pick QB's on the team?
QB's typicly don't play other positions like OLinemen. We can't make a slot receiver out of one of them. It's just hard for 2 guys who warrant being the starter to coexist.
In DA's case (contractually) it would make sense to move him if the deal is right....and NOT wait until after next year.
![[Linked Image from members.cox.net]](http://members.cox.net/flyinc5/smallsigpics/frcburnout.gif) AL 29 76 14 R_K
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Quote:
Just a general reply .....
I am reminded of a situation very close to home ......
Remember when our prized free agent LeCharles Bentley was lost for 2 seasons on the very 1st snap of his 1st practice with the Browns?
What happens if that happens to "QB A or B", and we have shipped the other guy off for a draft pick? The QB is arguably the most important position on any NFL team. We have one guy who has proven he can win ..... and another guy with a world of promise. What the hell os wrong with having depth for another year at the single most important position o the team?
Not taking sides on this, but .......
Look what happened this year. We couldn't find our starter. Went in with Charlie and he BOMBED. Imagine not getting him out of here. The conversation would be completely different. Nobody wants a QB controversy.
They say the most popular guy on the team is the back up QB. With just Brady or DA there, I don't think people will be clammoring for Dorsey when an INT is thrown.
At the same time, if it's handled properly, it's always great to have a capable back up. But the media and the fans make things very difficult. The media won't stop with the questions and usually make the situation worse. Then the fans think they know more.
It's always great to have depth. No question. As long as there will never be controversy.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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With just Brady or DA there, I don't think people will be clammoring for Dorsey when an INT is thrown.
Not a chance. Having said that, even if we were to move Quinn instead of DA, we would have to upgrade our backup.
With QB's you just can't work them into a rotation or bring them in as a nickle back. I guess you could do something crazy like the Denver Broncos did a million years ago and rotate your QB's each series.
AL 29 76 14 R_K
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If you give an advantage to DA for accuracy...what the use of debating.
Boise...9 th rated by NFL.com the thing is set on Yardage.
The only part I agree with Vers is that DA is impressive in the red zone which is a big plus...actually TDs is what might get the Brown's a first in compensation...cause it sure won't be anything else.
Now how much of those TD's is something special by DA as compared to a good prospective QB like BQ? Will the numbers go up? Down?
08 will be a different season. I just hope we continue to grow and the OL stays pretty much intact to give whoever is at the helm the opportunities to succeed.
But calling one poster out for placing a stat of 9 or 5 or 17 or 27 and the true barometer to judge a QB is pointless.
Trying to assess all of DA's qualities - I have to put him right around the middle of the road. Half better, half worse.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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"1st you think that DA is going to get us a 1st and a 3rd, sorry that in and of itself says to me that he is a franchise QB, and because we already have our supposed franchise QB, we don't need a second. Then you say that a team doesn't let a franchise QB hit the open market. It's not an open market he is a RFA, that is far cry from being the open market you suppose it to be."
Maybe a miscommunication on my part.
1. We have made a decision already that BQ is a Franchise QB...whether its proven or not. We have made that decision and by all that I know things are on track.
2. If we thought - WOAH! Where did this miracle happen...its Tom Brady deja-vu. We would not put DA out there. Cause thats the one in the hand worth 2 in the bush syndrome.
3. Just cause we don't think DA is a Franchise QB now - doesn't mean he can't be considered as one for the future. But if we groom anyone it will be BQ who we evaluated as having more success than we would DA.
4. Another team who has nobody to groom as a possible Franchise QB might view DA as that possibility for their team.
So Do I think DA will get a 1st n 3rd...only in my wildest dreams and best case scenario. It is possible. Ask me that 8 weeks ago and I say its a 100% done deal and maybe we can Franchise him for a possible 2 first rounders of compensation.
DA - sort of balanced out a bit the last 8 games and fell to earth.
The Competition went down, The TD's went down, the INTs went up - we did however win 5 out of 8.
But a Franchise QB is one of football's rarities.
You don't put one out there if you feel they are one already. Unless they are old and getting past their prime.
Thats my point...keep in mind everyday I hear a new rumor about us signing him long term...that would be a step that possibly we view him as a Franchise QB.
It also might mean we wish him hear for 1 more season before taking advantage of some offers???
Pends on the contract. And the guaranteed money.
Its all speculative on what we will actually do...but once we do certain things it should say a lot.
Then there is the individual fan's opinion...no use stating my own again its out there already.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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1st EO thanks for bringing clarity to some of the points I made, and thanks again for being civil, it speaks well about you as a person, and shows that you are a respectful person and consider others POV. Thanks I find myself in agreement with your POV most if not all the time. You state your case much better then I do thats for sure. I lack in the communications area thats for sure. Quote:
4. Another team who has nobody to groom as a possible Franchise QB might view DA as that possibility for their team.
So Do I think DA will get a 1st n 3rd...only in my wildest dreams and best case scenario. It is possible. Ask me that 8 weeks ago and I say its a 100% done deal and maybe we can Franchise him for a possible 2 first rounders of compensation
I agree but God would that team ever be making a huge reach, and not only that they would be taking a unbelievable risk. Throwing a #1 and a #3 at a QB like DA is a big risk IMHO. I think thats what some of the folks that came to your rescue missed. I only wished they had taken the time to consider what I wrote as you have, perhaps then the conversation could have turned to good debate, instead of a mud sling.
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3. Just cause we don't think DA is a Franchise QB now - doesn't mean he can't be considered as one for the future. But if we groom anyone it will be BQ who we evaluated as having more success than we would DA.
I think I said something about grooming in my 1st post( PS pointed it out actually in a interview). DA was allowed plenty of time without the pressure to perform, then when he was cast into a starters roll, he was put into the best possible situation to succeed. He actually recieved plenty of grooming, that part of the process should be over with for him. And he did pretty well, IMHO. We sure as hell could have done worse. Now as I see it DA needs to take what he has learned to the field and perform, there will be no more grooming for DA, from this point forward, thats already been done.
I am certain there are teams and even the Browns that are trying like hell to figure out where DA will fall. Will he be good DA or bad DA? Thats the risk factor for those that will come after DA. And the next question is?
Is DA a product of a superior O Line and skill players? Is he a guy that can carry the team when the chips are down?
Actually he has shown that he can pick up his game when he is called on to do so. The problem is generally speaking he is the person that is most responsible for digging the hole to begin with, and thats why I don't think a #1 and a #3 is realistic.
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But a Franchise QB is one of football's rarities.
You don't put one out there if you feel they are one already. Unless they are old and getting past their prime.
Thats my point...keep in mind everyday I hear a new rumor about us signing him long term...that would be a step that possibly we view him as a Franchise QB.
It also might mean we wish him hear for 1 more season before taking advantage of some offers???
Pends on the contract. And the guaranteed money.
A franchise QB is indeed a rare find, and it is possible that the Browns have 2, and if that is the case then a #1 and a #3 is cheep. Further there is no way the Browns will keep 2 Franchise QB's. But that is the great unknown.
As I said before I lean towards caution because of the importance of the QB position. That is my big sticking point. Bird in hand, 2 in the bush.
It's only a guess on my part, but like I said I think the Browns will try to get DA under contract if the price is right. If not they tender him and try to trade his rights away. Or they let DA see what the market is likely to bring come 2009 FA, and if he sees the Browns offer as being fair perhaps he signs up. I think the idea that he will only sign for a starters position is pointless. No player in the NFL that I know about isn't aware that they could be riding the pine when the time comes that the team thinks they have better. No matter what that is always the case. And perhaps it has been decided that BQ would benefit from another season riding the pine, and it could be that the Browns will keep DA no matter what for that purpose.
At the end of the day EO I see your points and I have taken them all into account. Most likely it will play out as you say, but it won't be for a #1 and a #3, unless Millan, or that clown down in Miami get another job. Or someone hires directly out of Belvue. LOL
Brown to the Bone
BTTB
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Your right and your wrong about me not answering your question. I was trying to say, that we have DA, and we know that he can operate our offense successfully. We don't know that about BQ, and we don't have a what if something happens to BQ backup plan in place.
So a bird in hand is my theory.
No teams don't carry 2 franchise or supposed franchise QB's, but then again I bet if you asked them if they could afford it if they would and to the very last one of them they would. Of course that depends on wether or not they also think by doing so they could possibly cause a controversy. In Cleveland it would happen becuase the fans here always want what they don't have. But honestly after the 1st few games everybody let go of the BQ should start idea, who's to say it couldn't happen again?
To me you have to wiegh all your options accross the board. Can the Browns fill their needs threw FA? Can the Browns find a young D linemen, LB, or whatever else they think they need to win without taking the risk of? #1 BQ failing #2 Of BQ getting injured.
I guess my point would be tho because other teams don't do it, doesn't mean they wouldn't like to, or that it's a bad idea. I thought I said that someplace else. I understand your point I hope you understand mine?
Brown to the Bone
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I really thought that I addressed this in my earlier post. But here goes again. Please Damon I am a one finger bad speller that my brain oft times gets ahead of what my fingers can get down before the thought leaves me.
1st I think you have to have the approach that we are that team in need, OK ?
So lets pretend
Lets start with Miami.
Now I am not really up to speeed on what the needs of Miami are, so my guess is that their needs run a lot deeper then just a QB. Not to mention that if I bring in a QB like DA and put him out there with what I currently have, will that turn my program into a winner? If not I pass, and build the team for the future thru the draft and thru FA, but I don't put the future at risk for something that isn't likely to make a huge impact on my team. Lets put it this way if Miami where to come after DA and give up just a 1st for him, do you think it would change the fortunes of their franchise? I don't think it would make much of a difference if any at all. So the question is why would you even consider it? That to me takes Miami and teams in similar situations off the table.
Then you come to the Vikings, they are the one team that I see where a quality QB could be the real difference maker. Teams like the Vikings are the market for DA's services. Some of the rest of the teams you named aren't even in the running IMHO, because although their circumstances aren't as bad as Miami's they are much better, so they will all pass.
In each instance you have to look at that teams need, their draft position, and the likelyhood that the addition of a player like DA would get them into the playoffs and beyond, anything less and no way they pony up draft picks. So to me teams that are not in the hunt for a playoff birth are off the table. Most of the rest of the teams that you have named wouldn't benefit from DA's services in the short term, and therefore I think they would likely pass.
Hey Millan is out there, and perhaps that guy that was just fired from Miami that took TG in the 1st round might find another job, and we could trick them into making another dumb move, but I doubt it.
So at the end of the day Damon, would you want PS to trade draft picks for DA if your Miami?
Would you want PS to trade draft picks for DA if your the Vikings?
Honestly if you can answer that question you can answer this question for yourself, I hope.
Brown to the Bone
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They say the most popular guy on the team is the back up QB. With just Brady or DA there, I don't think people will be clammoring for Dorsey when an INT is thrown.
True enough, But to trade a guy like DA or Charlie, just so we don't have a contreversy in the eyes of the fans,,,, that's the wrong reason...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Putting BQ in a competitive environment to win the job isn't necessarily a bad thing.. but once he has won the job, if he's looking over his shoulder after week 1 (if he has a bad game) or if the fans of Cleveland start chanting for DA.... that is something entirely different. That is where Peen is right, teams don't generally want a back-up qb that poses a threat to the starter... it creates a bad environment, especially when that starter is in his first year of playing...
Why would he be looking over his shoulder if he proves he is better?
He'd be doing that if he wasn't...
As far as having a backup that poses a threat to the starter..Peen can't say too much because he always wanted Holcomb to take over for Couch...ain't that a kick in the head?
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And only 1 of those 2 QBs is still in the league today .... so .....
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Hey man, hope this finds you well... I think you got my point... Thats why I started my 2nd reply here with this... "Stats are only part of the picture..." It's easy to focus on only areas of weekness... I was attempting to point out there are more areas of strength to focus on, to base a accurate value assesment on... My first reply here goes into this and other stat related and overall facts, veiws and perspectives on the DA topic... If we compromise and use your middle of the road DA accessment, then is what is the value of the 15th or 16th best starting NFL QB? What does his contract look like? What draft pick value does this quality of a NFL QB have? I've haven't been a big DA guy... But he lead well and had a very good season... All things considered. Take care!
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If you give an advantage to DA for accuracy...what the use of debating.
I gave the advantage to DA because of his ability to make everything throw on the field. He has shown the ability throughout the season to zing the ball in there right on target. The only issue DA has with accuracy is consistency. As I just said some of the balls he throws he puts it in the only spot it will work. A perfect example is when earlier in the season (I don't remember who it was against) right before the end of the first half, DA put the ball right down the seam to Winslow. He threw it in the only place where it would have been completed. Until BQ shows that he can not only be consistent, but can also make throws like this, DA has the advantage.
And if you noticed, earlier I mentioned that I do believe that BQ is the best option for the Browns in the future. I just believe that we don't know what we have in BQ and that it is best to hold on to Anderson to either be our quarterback of the future, or at the very least, as an insurance policy for BQ.
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The only issue DA has with accuracy is consistency. .
So sometimes he's accurate, and sometimes he's not? Is that what you're saying? Sometimes he can thread the needle, while other times he's innacurate as hell?
So you give him credit for being accurate "sometimes"? I can live with that. Even though I don't consider that an attribute.
But in saying that, wouldn't that also mean he is "inconsistantly innaccurate" as well?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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