DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Russia tells US ambassador it will retaliate over Sevastopol missile strike

... and so it begins


Russia blames US for Crimea deaths and vows response




https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/24/russia-summons-us-ambassador-over-barbaric-missile-strike


Russia tells US ambassador it will retaliate over Sevastopol missile strike
Moscow blames US, says retaliation will ‘definitely follow’ after US-supplied missile attack kills at least four.

Patriot missile system
Russia says weapons supplied to Ukraine by the West threaten to escalate the war [Reuters]
Published On 24 Jun 2024
24 Jun 2024
|
Updated:
6 hours ago
Russia has blamed the United States for a “barbaric” attack in Crimea that relied on US-provided missiles and killed at least four, including children, and wounded 151 others.

Russia’s Foreign Ministry summoned US Ambassador Lynne Tracy on Monday and accused the US of waging a “proxy war” and said retaliatory measures would “definitely follow”.

Since Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022, Moscow has persistently claimed that it is effectively fighting a proxy war with the West. Speaking to reporters on Monday, US Department of State spokesperson Matthew Miller said that the US provides Ukraine with weapons so that it can defend its sovereignty and that Tracy conveyed regret over any civilian loss of life.

A recent decision by the US allowing Ukraine to use weapons it supplies on targets inside Russian territory risks escalation and will incur “consequences”, the Kremlin said.

The Ukrainian attack on the Russian-occupied Crimean Peninsula was conducted with five US-supplied Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS) missiles, the Russian Ministry of Defence said on Sunday.

It added that four had been shot down and that a fifth had detonated in midair. The ministry claimed that US specialists had set the missiles’ flight coordinates on the basis of information from US spy satellites. There has been no response from the US, which began supplying Ukraine with the missiles earlier this year. There was no immediate response from Kyiv.

“Such actions by Washington … will not be left without response,” Russia’s Foreign Ministry said in a statement on Monday as it summoned the ambassador. “There will definitely be response measures.”

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov called the attack “absolutely barbaric” and said in a news conference that Moscow would react to the US involvement.


“You should ask my colleagues in Europe, and above all in Washington … why their governments are killing Russian children,” he suggested to reporters present.

‘Consequences’
Peskov also referred to comments by Russian President Vladimir Putin about arming countries to potentially launch strikes on Western targets.


Last week, he agreed to a military alliance pact with North Korea, causing alarm among Western allies.

Russian officials have recently warned that the Ukraine war is entering its most dangerous phase to date. Putin has repeatedly warned of the risk of a much broader war involving the world’s nuclear powers.

But directly blaming the US for a deadly attack on Crimea – which Russia annexed in 2014 and now considers to be Russian territory, although most of the world considers it to be part of Ukraine – is a step further.

“We perfectly understand who is behind this,” Peskov said, adding that it was clear who supplied weapons to Ukraine, aimed them and provided data for them.

“Of course, the involvement of the United States in the fighting, as a result of which peaceful Russians are dying, cannot but have consequences,” Peskov said. “Which ones exactly, time will tell”.

So do you agree with Russia?

Die Russian aggressors! Die. This is what you get for starting a war. Death be with you all.

this is why more and more people are blocking/ignoring you.

It is like people are saying excited about a confrontation with a nuclear power. It used to be that everybody agreed that nuclear war was to be avoided at all costs. Now some don’t seem to think so. Sadly this could have been avoided but we may be past the point of no return.

Maybe I'm picking up the wrong tone of your post (if I am, then please say so), but the only entity that had say in avoiding this is Russia, and the only entity that has shown to be "excited" about a nuclear confrontation has been Russia. You sound like you want to try to appease Russia.

Russia is the aggressor, and other than a brief armed rebellion/coup, the entirety of the conflict has taken place in Ukraine. So this whole "Russia is backed into a corner" line is total BS. Nobody (except Russia, who loves to throw veiled threats of nuclear escalation after they've been smacked upside the head by a far smaller military) has done anything to escalate this to a nuclear conflict.

And hopefully more and more people continue to do so.

...Did you read Spiral's post?

Russia says this kind of stuff all the time. It's really their go-to. Them using rhetoric like this is nothing remotely new.

In fact, they always attempt to ratchet up the rhetoric in a game of chicken and frequently hope the other side backs down. Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic countries among other places have been saying this constantly, over and over again, but people keep playing into it.

Russia only knows strength and leverage. Their bluff has to be called.

OMG, this. 100000000x this. Say a bully on the playground goes to beat up (as in basically murder) a smaller kid for no reason. A much bigger kid on the playground, who actually has a history of winning fights, hands the smaller kid a stick and he uses it to give the bully a black eye, after taking punch after punch from the bully. The bully then looks at the bigger kid and says "You're responsible for m black eye!!!!!" That's pretty much the case here.

Putin even had the chance to provide an on-air explanation to a soft-ball American interviewer who tried to spoon feed him justification for the operation and he still botched it. Russia is 100% responsible for anything that happens to Russia as a result of Russia's initiated and unjustified invasion.

This because I asked you a question? I see you didn't answer the question either. Interesting. Go after the person who asked the question while refusing to answer the question. No wonder you like trump.

It's a campaign! Maybe you're the one Bull thinks can be elected president in 2024. You poor souls. It's why you never see anything outside of your own bubble.

Says the guy stuck inside of his own bubble, while presenting absurd fantasies and attaching them to other people.

What do you like to say about pots and kettles?

If only your comparison made any sense. I haven't blocked anyone. I see and read what everyone posts from both sides. I don't block content based on the political views or posting style of anyone. But in your haste to try and make yet another baseless point, here you are.

I never said anything about blocking. I was talking about people being stuck in their bubbles and not even noticing what other people are writing.

Good job demonstrating that again.

The only demonstration being made here is that you are demonstrating you can't seem to get that I read it all while I addressed people suggesting others block any information coming from the other side. Context matters. Try to stay focused.

Maybe it is because your word cannot be trusted. You are willing to lie if it serves your narrative.

You do it all the time. You came here making statements with no sources just spouting trumpian nonsense and then question someone else? And claiming someone else has a narrative? That's hilarious. You are the epitome of what you are describing. Maybe if you stopped with the "Freedumb! Murica! MAGA!" all the time you wouldn't make your narrative so obvious.

So you addressed other people while replying to my post and using you and your?

I suppose you blocked my actual post out then and were replying to the made up "people" you were addressing.

Context does matter.

Try to be less focused on the voice in your head. Maybe try replying to what was actually written.

You specifically commented on a post I made addressing the blocking of other posters and then claim I'm the one who is supposed to figure out your comment had nothing to do with that? You certainly do well playing the shell game.

Oober, you may be picking up the tone that I do not want another Cuban missile crisis. I do not want any two nuclear armed enemies facing off with their fingers anywhere near “the button”. Now I could be reading this all wrong but at this point I believe the only resolution to this war is surrender by one of the parties. Direct question. Do you see Putin surrendering?? Because I do not think I do. I think he will do whatever it takes.


Oober, I do not know what the casualties for this war has been thus far. I am sure the destruction in the Ukraine has been billions of dollars. We have footed a huge part of the war bill and I can almost guarantee you we will foot a huge part of the rebuild post war.

The reason I believe this war could have been avoided ( who said the best war is the one never fought) . In around 2006 or 2008 NATO began floating the idea of membership for the Ukraine. Everyone knew that was a “red line” for Russia . They had said they could not accept NATO being right there on a long strip of their border. Geopolitics is always dicey to predict but I cannot help but wonder if that, NATO membership, had been removed from the table if this war could have been avoided. There is a lot of history between these two countries but I think this war could have been avoided.

Oober, you and another poster or two seem to think Russia might threaten nukes but never follow thru. Maybe , but a lot of people are concerned that if Putin senses that he is going to lose the war he might not just threaten.

Oober ,those are some of the reasons i have been opposed to the war. Hopefully we can have a conversation about this topic without you calling me a Putin lover like a couple of foolish people on here like to do. One final thought, many,many years ago my liberal college friends did not agree on much but one thing we did agree on was that America could not be the “policeman” of the world. I still feel that way but I also believe we cannot be the war banker of the world.


Nice talking with you Oober.

Could you out an untruth. Not a difference of opinion, but a bald faced lie like you spouted for 7 years repeatedly.

If you pick and choose when to believe what he says, where he says it and when he says it, you would be correct. If you look at all of the times he says one thing one time and another thing a different time and realize he says different things on multiple occasions, you realize you never know which one is the truth and which one is a lie.

He was a democrat. now he's a Republican. He was for abortion before he was against abortion.............

A timeline of Trump's many, many positions on abortion

Since 1999, Trump has been on just about every side of the abortion issue. Here's a timeline of his many positions.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trumps-many-abortion-positions-timeline-rcna146601

I understand your position. It's pretty much, "Well he couldn't have meant that because he said this."

And that's how he works. He'll say one thing one time and something different the next time. He will actually do it at the same event. He'll say things like,"stand back and stand by" as well as "There are very fine people on both sides". Then he'll say, "But not those people."

So some pick and choose which things he says and use that as an excuse for other things he says. It makes it hard to ever know what he really means and gives people the ability to make their own determination either way.

So when did I lie, you know, for seven years like you did.

You support a man being elected president that lies more than anyone else. So lying doesn't seem to bother you depending on who is doing the so called lying. And when you just go around making claims you refuse to substantiate, don't be surprised when people call you out on that.

If I had been convicted on 34 felony counts and had over 50 more felony counts pending....... If I had cheated on three wives and paid off a porn star for her silence....... If I had been found liable for sexually assaulting a woman...... If I had a business that had been fined more then 350 million dollars..... If I had a charity that had been fined and forced to close for ripping off other charities, would that make you approve of me more?

Because it certainly works for you in your support for trump. It appears I'm just not quite scummy enough for you.

Not really, no.

I can't argue your point here. I agree. Based on how long this has been going on, I doubt the people of Ukraine want to surrender, either. I think Russia has to be pushed out, and unfortunately that's the only outcome that could be considered a win for US/NATO.


I understand what you're saying about the US footing the bill for this war. I agree with you on that one, as I am also tired of the US being the world's police. However, I'd argue Ukraine is different than the Middle East because of its proximity to our closest allies, and Russia being an established global power vs extremist groups that run the Middle East. Additionally, arming Ukraine is (arguably) the more cost-effective method of opposing Russia's aggression. We aren't sending troops, but are still allowing Ukraine's military to be more effective in keeping Russia away from NATO countries (more on this below).
The narrative about them not wanting NATO to push closer to their border is nonsense, IMO. The Ukraine conflict (if briefly) galvanized NATO vs Russia and delivered additional allies to NATO (Finland and Sweden). Maybe they couldn't predict that invading Ukraine would do the opposite of what they intended... but then I don't really understand the logic behind pushing your borders closer to the entities that you're trying to stay away from.


You are correct in that you really can't predict for certain what Putin is willing to do/not do. But my problem with that is it falls into the trap of appeasement. Appeasing Putin is not the same as being a Putin lover... and while it does seem like certain politicians in the GOP have Putin's best interest in mind over the USA's, I do draw a line between that and appeasement (but I do disagree with both). It's regretful that topics like this tend to galvanize the two sides so much these days... I know despite trying not to, I am sometimes guilty of this. No, I don't believe you are a Putin-lover, but I still disagree with a strategy that involves appeasement simply because I don't think it'll work. I think the US and NATO tried that in terms of Crimea, and now we're debating about doing the same for the whole of Ukraine. Leaders like Putin won't respond to diplomacy. They simply need to be punched in the mouth.

It was nice talking to you too. I appreciate the debate.

Hey Keith, I am certainly not Oober, nor would I want to be but I will go ahead and invite myself to the party.

I actually think the Cuban Missile Crisis is a good example to bring up in how Russia needs to be dealt with and the show of strength that needs to be sent. We rolled in with our navy and said we were serious and lo and behold, the missiles did not make it to Cuba. That's what it takes. I've spent a lot of time evaluating Russia and the one concrete fact I can come up with is that there is really no such thing as bilateral win-win negotiations with them in the post-Tsarist era, up to and through Putin. There is only leverage. Looking back, that's why I think the "Reset" that Obama wanted to do was a really stupid idea, and it proved to be such. He was trying to apply an American "business dealing" diplomacy to a ruthless person who only understands power.

To pull your thread on Putin, from the most subtle sign to glaring overtures, he only deals in the realm of power. That is why he does little stupid stuff like bring a dog to his meetings with Merkel, show up hours late to a meeting with a foreign equivalent, or encourage his olympic teams to cheat. Power. He is the epitome of displaying Napoleon Syndrome. He sees "bilateral negotiations" and mutual compromise as opportunistic areas to seize power. China understands this, oddly enough. That's why you see Xi talk about their mutual "friendship" but Putin knows that Russia is now a vassal to China and he knows that Xi would have no problem kicking him to the curb as soon as it made sense for China.

So to answer your question, his Napoleonic Syndrome is very aggravated by the fact Ukraine has gone poorly to plan. So do I see Putin surrendering? No. However, that doesn't mean we should back down either in our support of Ukraine. Despite the fact he is not willing to surrender, that does not mean he isn't willing to lose. It also doesn't mean we should validate his behavior and also convey to China that we fatigue in the face of foreign invasions. To me, that would be the absolute worst case scenario.

I do disagree with the war being avoided. Putin began the invasion in 2022. He turned 70 that year. It is well-documented that he was heartbroken and motivated over Russia's Cold War collapse. All the circumstantial evidence from what is going in Serbia, Hungary, Slovakia, Moldova and Belarus points to the fact Putin wants to reclaim the territories lost in the post-Soviet era. That is really at the center of it. Hell, in his interview, Carlson straight up asked him if he invaded because NATO was a threat and he actually said "No" before going on a dissertation of the entire world's history. The biggest hiccup for him was the Majdan revolution in Ukraine in 2014. That supplanted his influence and that's why he was pissed and also why he annexed Crimea and sent "little green men" to the Donbass. NATO already moved to his border with the Baltic States and also with Poland. After this invasion, they also included Sweden and Finland...man, talk about expansive border. He did not invade any of those countries.

Currently the Russian military is already present in Moldova trying to supplant the government there. He has also made Lukaschenko a puppet in Belarus. It's also very clear to see that he has Orban and Fico under some set of puppet strings. This speaks to a point that I have brought up before. Take a map out and look where Ukraine is. If he takes over Ukraine, that gives him a land bridge to Moldova. I'd bet my mortgage that he would roll in there next to take over that country to "protect ethnic Russians." It would also give him a land bridge to Slovakia and Hungary where he already has two friends. That would also mean that Russia or its puppet states would touch about 2/3 of Poland's border and further isolate the Baltic States. That setup to me is a lot more dangerous than trying to keep the fight in Ukraine. Horribly dangerous.

I don't think Russia will fire the nukes. They threaten it all the time, seemingly on a daily basis because they like to use that scare tactic. Again, they only know power and leverage and they will say anything to try and give themselves the upper hand. That does not mean they are irrational though. China has already tacitly and I'm sure behind closed doors told them that nukes are a no-no. And also, what's to stop them from continually using that? They take over Ukraine and then go "Okay, we're taking over Moldova. Don't tell us 'no' or we're going to use nukes!" Where does that end? Lastly, Russia has already existed in a failed state status previously where they didn't resort to nuclear usage.

I think we are all opposed to the war. Nobody wants us to happen, but it is, and it's because of Russia. The casualties are massive, including the wide amount of children that were abducted and all the HORRIFIC atrocities that occurred at Bucha. Those are the reasons why there's actually an arrest warrant out for Putin currently. We need to contain him where he is. This is not an unjustifiable effort either. It's not like the Iraq invasion. Here, we have a country that has every right to make its own decisions being savagely invaded by another country. We have the support of the people where we are sending materiel.

Hope you've been well, Keith. Side note, I got to go to Normandy for the 80th anniversary two weeks ago. Really awesome place.

Some people think gifting a part of Ukraine to Putin after an unprovoked attack is the best possible solution. It seems they support emboldening Putin to take such actions in other eastern European nations moving forward rather than drawing a line in the sand as the best possible solution because they allow Putin to also bully them in their way of thinking

Reagan is rolling over in his grave.

I like your usage of the word appeasement. I believe appeasing Putin would have the same effect as what happened with Chamberlain in the 30's. It boils back down to that leverage dyamic. Putin knows what he's going to do and we have to make the best out of it, unfortunately.

I would posit that I also agree with the world police point as well. Europe really needs to step up, especially Germany, IMO, but that doesn't mean we also shouldn't.

Cost was another good thing to bring up. I think this is the most cost effective solution, and I would also be open to devices like interest free loans to Ukraine or treating it as a Marshall Plan like reinvestment once this is all over. I think opening up relations with a new ally provides a lot of growth areas. We've also had a lot more foreign allies looking to buy our weapons now with how they've fared vs a prime adversary.

I also wanted to clarify my use of 'cost'. I meant it both in terms of dollars as well as American lives.

Ukraine may not be an ally, but allowing Russia to roll through there and border our NATO allies will absolutely cost more down the line.

Directly referencing the part of your post I was replying to is a very complicated idea for some, I guess. Again, that seems to be a you problem.

And more of your reindeer games.

WHO CARES WTF Putin has to say. Screw him. If he wants a war, bring it. Russia shouldn’t scare anyone with the way they’ve performed in Ukraine. They damn sure don’t want this heat.

Where did I comment about what Trump thinks about anything?? When I state a position it is mine, whether on immigration, taxes, antisemitism or anything else. So instead of bringing up all your complaints about Trump show me where I lied about anything.

Oober and 05, i appreciate your thoughtful and informative posts. I agree with much of what you said. I do not agree with a couple of your conclusions and I will offer my thoughts. I do think this war could have been avoided but it would require quite an effort. All signs pointed toward the invasion so we needed a strong president, ??? And a strong European leader to bring Putin and zylensky to the table. They needed to bring one strong point to Putin. If he invades Ukraine the full economic might of America and Europe would be brought to bear on Russia. Oligarchs accounts outside of Russia would be frozen, America will put its Lng production into overdrive and the ships filled with lng would be crossing the Atlantic in numbers too great to count. In very short order the USA would replace Russia as the primary provider of lng to Europe. That revenue to Russia would dry up quickly. Putin would understand that most countries would not be doing business with him. I think those two strong leaders should also communicate with Xi, maybe tie adjustments to tariffs to his willingness to support this move.


If Putin is convinced of the severity of the reaction to the invasion it might give him pause. Then our two strong leaders negotiate a compromise. Ukraine gets all Russian troops out of Ukraine and Putin gets a guarantee that nato is off the table for Ukraine. If we can get that agreement, lives would be saved and billions in property damage would be avoided. And unlike that fellow a couple of posts up who seems eager to have two nuclear armed powers face off I just do not want to see that. And I fear we are getting closer to that.

If we had tried this before the invasion maybe it would have worked, maybe not. But it would have been worth the effort to try but we did not have leadership strong enough to do it. Obviously the time is long past so we will never know. I just wish we had tried.

I still am concerned about what Putin will do if the war does not progress as he wants. If he loses this war he will probably be done in Russia and he knows it so I am really concerned about it.

I am not a diplomat, a politician or a negotiator and maybe I am sort of a “pie in the sky” kind of guy. But t when it comes to trying to avert another horrible war I say you try everything.

I appreciate the opportunity to exchange ideas and thought and look forward to doing it again sometime.

One question to direct to 05, I am not certain oober has the same situation. 05, you said you used to be a repub but they moved away from you . I am curious which policies trump proposed that you found objectionable. Forget the twits, the porn star etc , just the policies. Other than using tariffs he seemed pretty mainstream republican policies. I am curious what your thoughts.

I envy your chance to go to Normandy. Did you have family who were part of Operation Overlord? I watch The Longest Day every year on June 6. On the 50th celebration my dad, who was disabled, wanted to go over for the event. He could not go alone and I put”work” ahead of what I should have done. He died a year later and I have been kicking myself ever since.

We took our grandson to Kennedy Space Center this weekend and that is a trip worth taking. I wish we would have allotted two days instead of one but it was a great day.

Well, 05, you and Oober have a great week.

I am not making light of the Ukraine situation, but several Nato members already border Russia. Finland and Estonia are two that come to mind, there may be a couple of others. They haven't been invaded.

From a military map, Ukraine is an open field, the logical place to start an invasion from the Russian perspective. I can understand why they don't want to see it go Nato. Just to be open and objective, if Russia started to amass large forces at the Mexican border, we wouldn't be good with that.

This is one of the best posts I've read at this site since the day I joined. In any forum.

Thank you for taking the time to make this post.
I recognise sincerity, honesty and effort when I see it.

I'm certain that any Dawgtalker who takes the time to read your post will be made smarter for their time spent.


Once upon a time, I used to write posts that I hoped would land upon another reader like yours landed on me tonight.
I no longer bother to work that hard. For me, the volume of juice almost always failed to equal the effort of my squeeze.

It's not a matter of skill... it's an issue of will.

But, damn. You freakkin' laid it down today, bro.

Keep doing You.
Lazy old fools like me who no loger care enough want to to see you do work.

Bro, Finland JUST joined NATO after the invasion. Maybe you should remind Putin of Estonia as well, since Ukraine joining NATO and being on his border was the trash reason for his invasion in the first place. Ya know, there was ALREADY NATO members right there on his border, so why trip about Ukraine?

I don’t understand why people give excuses to Cold War era wanna be dictators. I thought we hated commies in this country.

Ok this is bothering me.

Why do we have so many people claiming Ukraine isn’t an ally? We started diplomatic relations in ‘91, signed the Budapest Memorandum in ‘94 that was already in motion with the START treaty back in ‘91, and been doing joint military exercises and training ever since. So at worst, we’ve been allies with Ukraine since 94; 91 at best. I was 4 years old in 91, so we’ve been allies with Ukraine for about 33 years now.

Seriously, where is this notion coming from that we aren’t allies with Ukraine?