DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Question for professed Christians

I have a question for For Christians and professed Christians.

Do you believe that Jesus was incorrect About gender and marriage. (Two gender, Monogamous, Heterosexual marriage) or do you believe he was correct But that in a democracy People have the freedom to choose views And practices that are contrary to His Teaching

I Will not debate against any answer, unless it is based on faulty premises.

People have the right to choose. I have no right to impose my religious beliefs on others and Jesus taught us to love everyone. Not everyone but the LGBTQ community. My daughter was born when both her mother and I were very young. We chose life. I choose to be in a traditional marriage. People including myself have no right to impose our beliefs one everyone else.

Thank you for the reply. So I assume that you would choose the second option I listed. I would agree that you cannot impose your beliefs on others, and that we are to love everyone regardless of who they are or what they do because God loves them and Christ died for them so I agree with you on those points. I also agree that love always acts with respect and speaks truthfully

But if we agree with Jesus on marriage and gender, how can we accept the claims of People who say there is more than two genders, and Christians who say God
CREATES people gay, et cetera, unless we think Jesus was incorrect? (Which I don’t).

I’m not talking anbout accepting or loving the people. That should automatic. I’m talking about the issue of an accepting or not accepting claims.

I agree with the Bible, and what It says.

As far as homosexuality and such, each and every person has challenges and temptations in this life. We are not called to give into temptation, but to trust in the Lord for His help in overcoming temptation and sin.

Just like any person caught up in any sexual sin, Christians should not say "It's OK, I am sure God is fine with whatever you do", but rather that God loves us so much that he sent His own Son to die for our sins, and as such, we should not put our sin above Him even as we claim to worship Him. Further, if we believe the Bible, then such sin, and putting it before God, leads to hell. It is very, very far from loving to tell people that "I am sure that God is fine with you as you are doing". If that's not true for any other sin, then why for this one sin? (especially when sexual sin is condemned so strongly in the Bible) Even Jesus told the woman at the well, caught up in sexual sin, to go and leave her life of sin. How can we do less, when our silence essentially could condemn someone to an eternity in hell? That is the very opposite of loving, at least if we trust in the Word, and in the Lord.

Note that there is a difference between a person who struggles against their sin, and one who celebrates it. We all have struggles. We all sin. It is what we do when faced with those struggles that matters. We all slip and sin. We should repent of these sins. (which essentially means to make a decision to turn away from them) There is a difference between that situation, and deciding that what the Bible says just somehow applies to everyone but us that is dangerous.

Even as an atheist I can see that christians worship an omnipotent God that is the beginning and the end of everything, with a plan for all, meaning everything, every detail. And wouldn’t that mean the plan must also include all of creation? Doesn’t sound like a guy that makes mistakes, nor would he create something, be it sin or being gay, if that something was not also part of said plan… right? And since God gave his only son to pay for our sins, maybe he realized what an [censored] move it was to make people gay then tell others to stone them, in the first place. And frankly, I don’t think I need any bible quotes for this to be true by traditional Christian standards as well as it being a good human thing to do, you know? Christ was about love, forgiveness, kindness, and acceptance not pettiness over God gifted differences. I believe that all people attracted to same sex partners, for whatever reasons creates this attraction, would be no less than a pais man of God in the eyes of Christ.


But hey, I don’t like religion for a lot of reasons. And using your religion to inflict or further any form of hate, harm, or divisiveness is evil incarnate. My biggest issue with religious influence in society, outside the home or church, is people using it for nefarious reasons. People wield religion like it’s a weapon to bludgeon or smite those dissimilar to them, to gain undeserved power or advantage, or to kill all in the name of God. I’m pretty sure Christ would have disagreed with all of that too, if any of his life story is more than a work of fiction.

^ DaT dA DEVIL tRyIn’ tO cOnFuSe Us’ins!

~ the water boy’s MaMa

i believe people are free to make their own choices when it comes to sexuality or religion.

I believe you can be Christian/Catholic and an American who supports your fellow Americans regardless of religion or sexual preference.

Especially since not everyone is straight or Christian.

There are other religions like Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism and many more.

I have a question for Christians. When did supporting unbridled capitalism, flashes of racism, fascism, endless hate speech, and establishing an American autocratic quasi theocracy become a conservative christian value? And how could a loving faith justify hating over 50 percent of other Americans for being different? Am I the only one who sees this and says hmmm?

Well said. It is not for us to condemn anyone, for we all live in glass houses. Disciples of Jesus strive to live by all of His words (though we often fail). That includes having the same view of Scripture that He did.

OldCold dog first post.

A lot to reply to there. First of all, you mention that God has a plan for everything. I agree with that entirely. But to create man with freedom as part of that plan, with the ability to reject God’s plan is no mistake. Someone once said that a God who can create a world of free creatures and contingencies who can still fulfill perfectly His plans and purposes is far greater than a God who micromanages and causes everything. (Not exact words ). And if you truly understand what God’s purpose is, you know that it will not be popular and is OFFENSIVE to the natural man.

“Christians” who do the religious atrocities like killing in God’s Name, lovelessly condemning people, etc are like the Pharisees who Jesus condemned. The Torah and Tanakh (Hebrew Scriptures) are lovely, but were abused and exploited for greedy gain. Some people also do that with the Gospel. But sometimes submitting to the Gospel means holding views that people find offensive. So you end up being accused of things by the same people who find God’s purpose to. E offensive when they find out what it actually is.


This is what Jesus meant when he said do not think I came to bring peace. I did not come to bring peace but the sword. This is often interpreted to mean that Christian are violent or conflictive or combative, but that’s not what Jesus was talking about,(Even though sometimes true, it’s sometimes true). Jesus is talking about the fact that he is bringing a system of living and thought that is wholly offensive to the world and they will hate Christians just as they hated Jesus And interestingly enough it’s often the religious people who hate Christian the most. Even the religious people profess to love Jesus will hate true Christians the most. Jesus said if they hated me they will hate you who were the people that hated Jesus the most? It was the religious people.

I hate religion, but I love Christianity because Christianity is not a religion but a relationship

SuperBowlDogg. I agree with your post, but the question was “do you agree with Jesus view of these issues”? Of course everyone has freedom to do what they wish, but can we believe the claims of LGBT on marriage and gender and still have the same view of Scripture that Jesus had. That is at that time Jesus stated views on the Tanakh (O.T)

I don’t believe in unbridled capitalism, but Jesus’ parables are full of capitalism. There is a parable of the Talents. Talents are units of currency, in the parable, Jesus entrusted various amounts of currency to 3 men with the expectation that they would use those talents to create a profit. They were evaluated at the end about how well they did with that currency and then rewarded accordingly the one who the ones who created a profit were given more And the one who did not create a profit had his talent taken away and given to the others. This Parable is not about money. It is a spiritual principal, yet it does not seem that Jesus was anti-capitalist.

Secondly, the very word lord means owner When Jesus calls himself, Lord, that means that he is owner of everything So Jesus would teach that everything belongs to God, not the government or the collective. But of course we pay taxes to the government because it is the right thing to do and Jesus taught that also. But you will find nowhere in scripture where Jesus said to give your money to the government to distribute. He said, give your money to the poor, which would be charitable giving. Yet Since there are so many poor people and so many needy people, some of our taxes go towards helping the truly needy, and that is great. But that is not part of the teachings of Jesus, either because it was not necessary or that system did not exist in that context. What they would do is give alms, or deliberately leave grain behind while reaping for needy people to pick up, feed the poor in their own home etc , (This was definitely encouraged by Jesus) But there is no mention of Socialism. Note. I do believe in government assistance programs for the poor

The Bible strictly condemns Racism, Hate, And the other things you mentioned. So any professor Christian who does such things is not living according to the teachings of Jesus and the Bible would actually say they are not Christian at all. Yet sometimes what is called hate speech is not actually hate speech but is rather Holding the same views as Jesus, who had a VERY HIGH view of the Torah. Of course, He came to bring forgiveness and Grace to those who have broken the Torah (all of us) , but that does not change the fact that the Torah reflects the very holiness of God and its precepts the very standard of righteousness.

Of course the great commandment was love God with all your heart and love your neighbour as yourself

Some of my posts here have a lot of typos. This is because I’m using the microphone on my phone and my phone apparently has a very bad hearing problem. I apologise.

Real quickly, and probably not in enough detail ......

God created us with free will. He created us to be His children, and that means giving us free will, to make decisions for ourselves. He wants us to choose Him, not to be forced into relationship with Him.. We decide whether we want to follow Jesus, or if we want to follow the lusts of the world ......sex, money, stuff, power, fame, etc. I should note that there is a difference between having these things, and lusting after them. One can have money, for example, and use it for good purposes ..... and one can also use it selfishly. I would guess that most of us, regardless of level of affluence, fall somewhere in the middle, at best. This is why we need a Savior. None of us can be "good enough" on our own.

As far as capitalism ..... it is the best economic system in the world .... but like all things, it must be modestly to moderately restrained. Any human invention could turn into something truly evil. (even the regulation of a system or society) Unfortunately, the overwhelming percentage of societies and systems share this problem. We have to simply do the best we can.

I would just add, that Christ was also about obedience to the Father, even unto death. We all have flaws and temptations, that we are called to overcome, and the only way to do so is through Jesus Christ. I believe in God the father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ. He created the world, and knew that we would screw it up and violate every one of His commands. That is why He had the plan of sending Jesus to pay the price for the sins of all who put their trust in Him. There really is no difference between the person who is gay, the one who feels driven to sleep with every member of the oppisite sex he/she can, the gambler who ruins his family by his vice, the murderer, the one who hates others, the one who uses others, the one who lies, etc. These are all sins. Some have greater predilection for particular sins then others do .... but we all have something that God calls sin, that will keep us out of His perfect Kingdon, unless we repent of these sins, and work to reject them. Many times people think that their sins aren't as bad as others, and that might be true from a human perspective ..... but not from God's.

The amazing thing is that though God hates our sin so much that He will condemn the unrepentent sinner ..... He also loves us so much that He sent His Son to pay the price for our sins, and then He hears our prayers, and He sends His Holy Spirit to live among us. That is how much God loves us. He overlooks our sin, even though it is abhorent to Him ... even though He despises it. This is incredible love.

I would just like to add that people have been fooled in the name of Christianity as well. The overriding factor of why the nation spread west and we took over lands from the native Americans, some even say by genocide, was something known as manifest destiny. The belief that somehow God ordained that we conquer this country and take it for our own. Crimes against humanity were committed once again in the name of God.

It's why you have to be very careful as to what someone's message is when they claim it is in the name of Christ or the will of God. Nothing about that has changed.

Render unto Caesar what it Caesar's and to God that which is God's.


Jesus didn't lay down laws, he spelled out and lived the example we all need to emulate to be Godly, and perhaps earn our place in any afterlife there may be.
He was a teacher, not a ruler. He taught and our daily lives are both the homework to continue learning and the practical exam of those teachings.

Well said, YTown. 👍. On all of your posts.

John 10:35- …he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Thank you for your reply. Some good comments there.

I never said Jesus laid down laws. (So he did in his pre-incarnate state) I spoke of His Teachings.

Are Christians going to believe Jesus and the Word or are they going to believe what society says?

That’s what the thread Is About.

Christians forcing other people to believe what they believe or forcing people to live a certain way is unrelated to the OP, and I do not endorse those things. This thread is about what Christians believe what they don’t believe that is what the OP. stated.

What does it matter what anyone does or doesn't believe? I mean really? The question is what do you think your belief gives you or doesn't give you the right to do? Anyone can believe that homosexuality is wrong. They can believe it's a sin. But other than such people having the right to live their life according to their beliefs, what does it matter?

Your beliefs give you the right to live according to them. So maybe you should explain to us what difference does it really make what anyone believes on this topic? We each have the right to live our life and have no right to discriminate against others who do not share our beliefs. So what exactly is the point in all of this?

Maybe I misunderstood, but the way I read the OP was as an open question around how we reconcile our Christian beliefs with being part of society (specifically American democracy). Did I read that wrong?

If not, I would say that I am a proponent of separation of church and state. I know how I would choose to live my life, but I would generally stop short of enacting laws simply because they fall within the bounds of my belief system. The example you chose was marriage being heterosexual only... I would say that I support gay couples being allowed to be legally married (with the assumption that the/a church is not legally obligated to go against their beliefs in support of this law).

In general, my beliefs are my beliefs and there really shouldn't be a ton of connection between specific belief systems and how we set up our democracy.

Good question

you undermine some of Jesus’ teachings, it leads to a degradation of other tenets of Christianity.

Some who have compromised on the teachings of Jesus have later renounced core Christian beliefs.

What does it give us the right to do? Pray for people and preach the Gospel. my people do not bash LGBT. We do not Focus on that part of the person, We focus on everyone made in the image of God and on everyone’s need for Christ (including ourselves first, we need Grace every day) . I believe that if you Share the gospel of Christ, the Spirit of God will do the changing. When I came to God, I brought nothing in my hand. I brought no promise That I would change, I just As a repenting trusting sinner for mercy. I was guilty of the vilest sins. So like I said, I don’t throw stones at anyone. I live in a glass house. But I am not going to compromise my beliefs.

The question was straightforward and more for personal reflection than debate.

Cheers.

Yes, you read it incorrectly. I fully believe in democracy and in complete freedom of religion or even non-religion because that is constitutional. My question was for Christians It had to do with what they believe do they believe the teachings of Jesus or what is accepted as secular dogma and even called scientific fact by a large part of society (that is contrary to Jesus and the apostles words.

The question is intended for reflection more than it is for debate

Ps for Pitdawg

In addition to my first answer, The reason why it matters what we believe is because according to Jesus’s words, What we believe is a life or death matter.

You may not accept that, but I do Because I believe Jesus words.

Which once again is totally their choice. I think if you look at how many in the Christian religion are trying to impose their belief system on society and villainize those different than themselves they are more responsible for people leaving the Christian religion than anything else. Many church services sound more like political rallies at this point. They are their own worse enemy.


I have no idea how you wanting to know the beliefs of others has anything to do with your own personal reflection. Or how you think that would work to help others have their own personal reflection.

So the political forum on DawgTalkers is your own personal pulpit now? It seems as though you have now decided that preaching is your calling when it started out you were making excuses for a despicable convicted felon who sexually assaulted a woman. Quite the dichotomy. And that's something as a Christian I simply can't do.

If you don’t like the thread, no one forces you to participate. 😀

Whem
When I mentioned the danger of apostasy earlier, I wasn’t talking about people who renounced Christianity. I was talking about people who made shipwreck their faith while still professing to be Christians. Because they even (some) got to the point of denying the resurrection.

If people don’t like the thread, they don’t have to participate.

TBH, I wasn’t really expecting anyone to respond. I hoped but I doubted.

Thanks for your participation. 😀

I'm sorry you have yet to figure out how social media works.

Not one who tries to scream so loud at those who aren't christian that it's deafening. Not one who lambastes and calls everyone else evil, or tries to inflict my beliefs on them. But a lot of Christians fit that description. And it's hurting the rest of us.

I guess it works out where Pitdawg decides what people are to talk about. If that is you, delete the thread.

Thanks again for participating.

Cool. I’m not that kind of Christian either. 😀

You can post or talk about anything you choose to. Just like I can comment on anything I choose to. That is how social media works. You're welcome.

Yet here we are.

So when did I do any of what you described in this thread? When did I lambaste anyone? Who did I call evil? When did I try to force my beliefs on anyone?

I asked a question.

You’re manifesting right now.

But not like as in "Manifest destiny" which Christians used as an excuse to slaughter Native Americans and steal their land. You just don't like the feedback you're getting on the topic you posted. That too is a part of how social media works. You're welcome again.

People have been using religion as an excuse to slaughter and take land since people had religion. Manifest Destiny was not a novel concept. It was a well worn pattern.

Which only helps to bolster my point. We have to be very careful who we listen to in regards as to what Christians should and shouldn't be doing and promoting. History has shown us over and over again what the consequences of giving a blank check in the name of God can lead to.

Yet I'm not sure why using the excuse "Well other people did it" means in regards to the fact that it was done here in America. I mean you're right that we didn't invent it but we're seeing a lot of terrible things we have seen in history repeating itself and nobody seems to care about that either.

I don't claim to know if homosexuality etc is a sin or not.
I don't know of Christ ever saying so.
I do know that it isn't one of the ten commandments.

Is it in the bible? I think somewhere but when people use the argument "because the bible says so" I want to ask. Which bible?

King James Version
New International Version
English Standard Version
New Living Translation
New King James Version
The Message
American Standard Version
Good News Translation
New American Standard Bible
Revised Standard Version
Contemporary English Version
New Revised Standard Version
Amplified Bible
Christian Standard Bible
Holman Christian Standard Bible
New Century Version
New English Translation
New Jerusalem Bible
New Life Version
New World
Hebrew Bible
The Masoretic Text

The Geneva Bible
Bishop's Bible
The Great Bible
The Coverdale Bible
The Leningrad Codex
The Aleppo Codex
Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus
Codex Alexandrinus
Codex Sinaiticus (The Sinai Bible)
Codex Vaticanus (The Latin Bible)

These last 10 are the oldest bibles in existence
So unless you are using one of them I would argue that you are using data that has been corrupted in translation

So when did Jesus mention manifest destiny? Pitdawg 42:7?