DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Question for professed Christians

I thought we were talking about the teachings of Jesus here. Seems like your in the wrong thread. 😉

The issue with religion is you guys thinking God actually cares or interferes in the daily lives of human society.

This deity didn’t interfere in slavery, the holocaust, 9/11, etc.

And if this supposed God does interfere, then he’s a pretty cruel being. By Christian logic, everything that exist is created by God. So now I need you to explain to me why the god you worship hates the Bible Belt states so much, because he won’t stop sending hurricanes in the one place where his worship is the greatest.

What ends up happening is then religious people trying to pick and choose which aspect is ‘God’s will’ versus ‘things just happen’ or free will. When god sends the hurricanes, that’s just climate. But a wildfire in Cali is god purging people for homosexuality?

When the domestic terrorist killed those children in the OKC bombing, was that also God’s will? Why didn’t he protect his children? The kids that are murdered in school shootings? Was God punishing those children for not praying hard enough?

Stiff arm and YTown, respectfully, but I can easily use Christianity or any religion to make the argument that God used that school shooter as his vessel to inact his judgement? That those kids and teachers deserved what got to them because God commanded it?

I just don’t like religion. Cause people have and will use their religion to justify the most extreme and disgusting things imaginable, in the name of God.

There's more. But you nailed it.

So are you going to point to an instance when I did one of these things you mentioned in this thread?

Truth

Swish, you cannot use Biblical Christianity to defend murdering innocent people. Such a statement reveals that you do not understand Biblical Covenants. And yes, I think I know the direction your objection is coming from, but you if I am right, You are guilty of an anachronism.

See "Crusades, The"

Sine the thread is about the teachings of Jesus, I will ask “when did Jesus ever call for the crusades? Book, chapter, and verse

Yeah, but it kind of works better if you actually talk about the OP instead of some strawman or red herring that you want to construct.

You seem to think that when you bring up Christianity you can confine it into one little box of your convenience. The way Christianity has been used, abused and things people have done in the name of God and Christ are on the table as well.

What was it you said about me earlier? Something about me telling people what they can post about? Hmmmm.....

When you open the door a crack don't blame everyone else because they went ahead and pushed it open.

Sorry pal, the OP is about the teachings of Jesus. I don’t know what pseudo-Christianity has to do with any of that.

You can go ahead and show me where Jesus taught manifest destiny, crusades, et cetera. While you’re at it, you could tell me when I lambasted, condemned, or tried to force my beliefs on anyone. I asked you twice and you fail to answer (because you know it was a misrepresentation.)

No, I love the feedback. Most of it is very good. 😀

You seem to think that since Christians do bad things that it’s part of what Jesus taught. Kind of a strange idea

You do realize that there are a number of posters whose replies are not fitting into this set of guidelines you're trying to impose on them, right? I'm not the lone actor here. Maybe you can show me where I directly accused you of any of those things? My point, since you still seem to be missing it, is when you open up a topic about anything political, religious or Biblical, it opens the door for the very type of comments you are getting from a variety of posters. You don't like that it has gone beyond the realm of the subset of Christianity topic you want everyone to focus on. But that's how topics work on this message board and have for many years now. They expand, branch out and begin including other facets of that topic.

If you think some Johnny come lately will be able to walk in here and change all of that because it doesn't suit their purpose you will find you are sadly mistaken. So single me out if that makes you feel better but you aren't going to be able to come in here and change the way this board works. Or maybe for you, doesn't work as the case may be.

There’s a ton of events in history that disagrees with you 100%

Question, do you think there would be a USA that you know it today if Christian’s actually followed the teaching of Jesus when they were still in Europe?

So if it isn't restricted to the only part of Christianity you deem worthy, you label it as a straw man or a red herring? You just crossed over to the realm of political speech. And you think it is you who are qualified to make some topic about people's religious beliefs a "teaching moment"? As if people don't think about their own religious beliefs without you trying to teach them something?

The reasoning people use to form their thoughts and opinions on Christianity and the very teachings of Jesus himself are the very foundation of the topic you have opened up here. Maybe that's what you call a straw man or red herring. Most people would realize that without knowing that, it's impossible to have any understanding why people feel as they do on the very topic you opened up.

Well, 1, there are a lot of theories over whether Jesus said what he said in the Gospels vs whether the writers were trying to get across a certain point to their audience.

2, you yourself in this very thread have made several interpretations and conclusions based on segues from what is in the bible. To bring up how The Crusades were justified, basically in order to achieve power and prestige, many leaders, including multiple popes (and I am Catholic), did the same thing in order to justify warfare. The Muslims did the same.

It's a slippery slope with religion. I, like oober mentioned, have my own beliefs on Jesus and God. I remain a man of quiet faith for the most part though because I think it's a very personal thing, I think the church and state should be separated, and I think it can also be very easily weaponized.

I also think that many of the people who bury into the very verses, chapters, and whatnot in the bible may also tend to miss the forest for the trees. I'm pretty sure if you took who Jesus was, as a whole, and compared him to just about any famous religious or political leader, the similarities would end very quickly.

Except I’m not asking about whether you believe everything that every nominal Christian believes. I am asking if they believe everything that Jesus taught and asserted, including matters of gender and

The answers given by the ones off topic are category errors. They are conflating the teachings of RCC, that weird church that protested funerals (can’t remember the name of the church) etc and acting as if they are Jesus’ teachings. That is a category error, I think.

And I’m not trying to change anything, I am pointing out the error of their arguments. Which is just as fair (more actually) as people introducing red herrings, strawman, and category errors into a discussion.

Dawglover You are a man of faith. I am happy to hear that. May I ask you what is the basis/foundation of your faith? How do you determine what is true of God and what is not true? How do you determine what Jesus said and didn’t say?

Or even after they got here. Jesus didn't teach them that manifest destiny to conquer and destroy other civilizations was what they should do. It's not much of a conversation if someone tries to restrict you only what the Bible and Jesus teaches but tries to prevent you from talking about what people have actually done in their name.

For some reason it seems impossible for them to consider those actions are why many people feel the way they do about the Bible and Christianity. How the teachings of Jesus have been perverted by so many that it makes it nearly impossible for some to have any faith in it at all. That's a very important ingredient in the conversation.

You don't have to ask about something for people to include their input. The very things they are telling you about are the reasons they have so much of a problem with religion, it's teachings and their belief in the scripture. Those dots aren't hard to connect.

This is also why a large percentage of “Christian Americans” are supporting obvious fascism… How F’n sick do you have to be to think a fascist state is better than our democracy because you can impose your beliefs on others at will? I can’t fathom the thought process behind this logic.

Organized Christianity lost it’s grip on American society starting sometime in the 50s or 60s, imho. At least when I think back over my life, I remember religion being much more family prevalent back in the era of not locking the doors at night. And I’ve slowly watched and often rooted on the erosion of organized religion’s appeal to the masses. I don’t believe religion has any place in political discourse AT ALL. And I don’t want my politicians pushing their personal beliefs on me or anyone else while wielding the power of the people. I also don’t want politicians who discount the value of Christian Americans, white men, or any human for that matter due to their beliefs.

I think a politician should work for the best results they can obtain for their constituents. And I believe when we run for office parties are important as a baseline of belief similarity, but once elected, you must represent all of your constituents, not just those who believe as you do in all matters. That’s MAGAs biggest flaw, they eat their own so fast that it’s insane to watch sometimes. And by intentionally lowering the bar for politics to a point that an MTG is even electable, the right continues to devolve into a fascistic cult of personality. And the local state MAGA creeps that invaded Ohio’s legislature, they need to go. The will of Ohio’s voters is at real odds with their MAGA agenda, and they attempt every dirty trick they can muster to deny or delay that will.

This is the kind of crap that as American’s, regardless of party allegiance, we should fight at every turn, because these are the roots of our divisions. The answer was never to get rid of half the country and live in a world resembling the handmaid’s tale. The answer is finding ways to peacefully coexist and work together toward resolving our common goals thereby empowering each of us to handle our personal lives as we see fit… that is the promise of America. The promise of freedom, opportunity, peace, and our ability to prosper is what we all really want from our government. Then ideally they butt out, but every game needs refs, and it’s our reps responsibility to provide a working framework for this type of American experience for ALL.

Recently, one side seems to have misplaced those values or what we once considered common truths. They have jumped through so many dis info hoops that their manipulative leadership has flipped reality on it’s head in a gamble for greater influence and control. Project 2025 is a blueprint designed to usher in an autocratic quasi fascist theocracy. Wake up Trump supporters, you’re losing the true meaning of being American in your fervor for getting your way.

That’s a good question. The answer is uncertain, because God can work through both obedient and disobedient Christians (and non-Christian’s) And even bring good out of evil

Yours was A very good question. Thumbs up

My beliefs in God/Jesus/Bible are for myself only and I don't need to force my religious beliefs on others. Instead, I love/support that our country is made up of many types of people who have different beliefs and make different choices than I do.

The bible has been rewritten countless times. The Apocrypha, changes the whole context of the bible.

The Bible says that if a person calls himself a Christian and does not live according to or rather lives contrary to Christ teachings so as to hate his brother or neighbour, to be a racist, et cetera they are not a Christian, in fact the way the Bible says is if anyone says he has fellowship with God and walks in darkness he lies and does not practice the truth and if anyone says he knows him and does not keep his commandments he is a liar and his word is not in him and if anyone says he is in the light and hates his brother he is in the darkness even until now and beloved love or another… Not as Cain who hated his brother And whoever hates his brother abide in death. So I don’t put a lot of weight on what pseudo Christian say, the crux Is what Jesus says, Which is what the OP was about

And YOU don’t think that describes Trump? Smh.

I don’t force my beliefs on others either.

Do you think Matthew 28: 18-20 Is describing forcing beliefs on other people I don’t

If Trump lives contrary to the teachings of Jesus, it does not change the answer to the question that I asked in the OP

So a non answer is your answer? A simple yes or no will do. Didn’t you just describe Trump with your posts?

I apologize for answering your post in two parts. The answer to the first part of your post is a couple posts above.

I have already said that I believe in freedom of religion as one chooses to worship God or not to worship God as constitutional. God himself gives us the freedom to choose or to reject him to adhere to his words or reject them or change them or any other thing we might do, so that is slightly irrelevant The Bible has not been rewritten countless times it has been Recopied numerous times, And if you compare the almost 6000 manuscripts which altogether contain literally millions of pages of handwritten copies, you will find it while there are a small amount of copyist glosses, Which ever manuscript or translation you use, you will get the same message, And not one Christian teaching or doctrine will be affected. Most of the glasses are in consequential the vast majority of them so inconsequential That they can’t even be translated into English, And they do not produce any change at all in the text.

The apocrypha was rejected by the Jews and never considered scripture For that reason, The reformers also rejected them The Jews were custodians of God’s Tanakh, so I will trust their canon.

I would say “ I don’t know”. Honest answer.

Is he a racist? I don’t think he is.

Some people say all white people are complicit with racism. Kind of a broad brush to begin with.

Try to start with humility, admissions of ignorance, being kind to everyone - especially my enemies, and trying to go from there.

And failing...a lot.

As far as scriptural, corroborating one book to the other is a start. And trying not to lose the big picture of who He was.

I agree with the broad brush, but I also think you’re missing the point of that broad brush. Time and time again, people have pointed out and suffered the pains of ‘systemic racism’ due to a system that was developed while slavery was a part of our culture. Surely, you can see how and why the BLM movement started? I mean due to political views you might dislike the BLM protests and dispute what really caused the riots and looting; but on a human level, I doubt you felt nothing watching a man slowly die due to overly zealous and lethal policing and detainment procedures. If I watched my son go like that, I would have personally torched the world with an FU to go with it. You probably would too. And all of this could have been avoided if only we weren’t so divided. I personally think/feel that both sides were using a broad brush around those riots.


EDIT:

When I reflect on the days after 9/11 and compare them to the political fervor around those riots, it’s a night and day contrast. Time to end the hate. But I’m as guilty of hate as anyone, because I hate everything MAGA and Trump stand for from my POV. And I’m extreme enough to rebel against a would-be autocratic fascist theocracy, but I would prefer that my fellow American’s not put me in a situation to force that choice.

Old, thank You for sharing your feelings without Being combative towards me personally. I have no problem with the BLM protests (or rather with anyone who protested peacefully and lawfully) and because protesting is Constitutional. I have no problem with saying and speaking from the heart that black lives matter. I don’t agree with them on some political issues and platforms, but have no problem with peace protests.

I do have an issue with antifa Because they attacked more than fascists.

There are things involved in the George Floyd killing That were kind of glossed over by the media, but I do think the officer should have taken his knee off of George ‘s Neck and called paramedics immedietely. I have things in mind that I’m tempted to talk about, but I will refrain because it is a sensitive topic.

I think of Trump is elected that you will find that he is not a fascist. That is just my Honest opinion. I have documented many lies that the media and Democrats told about Trump in these forums, But unless you want to see a bunch of articles and videos and clips again for me, maybe we should just agree to disagree on that.

Well, since I’m talking about the teachings of Jesus and not a branch of Christianity, your first question is irrelevant

Actually, the OP was about the teachings of Jesus, not the teachings and practices of Christianity. The question asked do people believe what Jesus taught and believed. I have explained this to you numerous times, so I don’t understand why you keep saying the same thing, unless you think everything the various churches and denominations are saying are the words of Jesus, which would be strange. Or you just want to argue senselessly.

You keep bringing up different branches of Christianity, Both different branches of Christianity can answer the question, however they like. But when we asked the question, whether someone believes something, We are not talking about what various branches of Christianity believe we are talking about what Jesus taught So that narrows the field considerably because many branches of Christianity teach things that Jesus did not teach and many branches of Christianity and Christian teach things that Contradict Jesus teachings.

I believe in freedom to choose beliefs and freedom to live according to beliefs and convictions. That said, do you believe that the government should allow exemptions for doctors and such who want to CHOOSE not to do abortions based on convictions? I’ll make it simple by excluding life threatening pregnancies.

To everyone.

Like all of you, I too believe in freedom for all to freely live according to their beliefs and convictions. That said, do you believe that the government should allow exemptions for doctors and such who want to CHOOSE not to do abortions based on their convictions? I’ll make it simple by not include life threatening pregnancy abortions from my question

Are we talking an ER doctor or a family doctor?

It's a tough one. That issue goes back to things in the past we don't need to relive from almost 80 years ago.... when some people didn't have to sell to certain people.


Doctors tend to be specialists vs all-encompassing.

I think it’s more than fair that a doctor opt out of doing abortions over religious concerns. But the service must always be available and refusal of any emergency medical service in the ER should always be illegal. Emergency DNCs for tubal or non-viable pregnancies, because the child is dying/seriously ill in the womb, and or the mother’s life is moderately in jeopardy should all be mandatory. Hell, if you cover emergency medical services, exceptions for rape, incest, and children under 18; I’d be fine with partial abortion bans in red states BUT women must be allowed to travel. Then if a state votes to enshrine abortion rights (blue states and progressive red states alike) everyone would be afforded those rights in that state no matter where they are from. End the madness and threatening jail and accept the win for limiting abortions, while allowing voters to vote on ban/enshrine in every state. Then make the ban states employ a common policy without the threats of jail, and with the humane exceptions policy. Maybe this should be voted on too by voters rather than by reps from gerrymandered districts… that would be a compromise that all sides could live with peacefully and long term imo. The extremes will never let it be any less than what they want. Full access or full ban… and when that handful of idiots is done making noise, the rest of us could quietly vote our conscious.

To be honest, I’ve backed off the stance that row must be restored no matter what, and am now open to moderate restrictions due to the lack of children being born. We are seeing what China is facing with generations first living under the one child policy and now facing huge economic issues with children being unable to provide in their old age. It would be like all the social programs here ending and those who didn’t build enough wealth to retire, never do or become another’s burden. Young men expected to provide for their parents on top of paying for their own lives and families, start feeling inadequate. So, now the young there are like here where relationships, dating, marriage, and reproduction are all in steep decline. People who have no economic hope, don’t breed so much, who knew?

Thinking about that after seeing how a grandson and one of my nephews, both slightly shy but otherwise decent prospects, but they struggle to even meet females. Their lives have too much screen time and no socially interactive time. Neither does bars, church, clubs, social organizations, or anything social except hang out with a few close friends. And they don’t even have many friends! So, their struggle to meet women their age is very real. They do not want to be accused of sexual harassment for merely asking a girl on a date (I didn’t know that was a thing), and they fear something like that might happen if they even attempt to ask somebody out. Hell, everybody they know uses dating apps like social badges, males and females both. And they all live in a rural small town farming community, population just under 3000. However, it’s surrounded by smaller cities in close proximity and less than 40 minutes to the greater Dayton area… I don’t get it. I never had those issues.

When I came up as a genX kid, we spent every waking hour on the go in a small town Kool-aid neighborhood. We got used to talking to the opposite sex before our teen years. Back then an issue with dating close was the two would have a bond tantamount to the sibling-like girl next door. You’d rather not risk ruining that childhood bond over a chance to get to first base with a girl that feels like a sister because you hung out everywhere together. And I get some love stories start out that way, but the kid in me would have thought “YUCK!” At the prospect. But that girl that lives two streets over, she was fair game. Dating in the neighborhood clique wasn’t taboo, but we pretty much never did that.

Long stories shortened, we didn’t have people telling us we were sick if we just blurted out “I like you” or wanting to act ridiculously offended over a kid with a crush asking them out. Nope, those girls were good at fending off the boys and we had to learn how they wanted to be talked to and treated before they would even consider going steady (posting STATUS “in a relationship” GenX version). We were expected to have the money to take a girl to the movies or to lunch. We were expected to treat them honorably and to always protect them, it was just a given. But we grew up knowing the rules and expectations and both genders were usually eager to date. Asking a girl out took nerve the first time or two, and then it didn’t because we had confidence. And asking people out, having relationships, interacting on many social levels was all much easier before the interwebs.

All of that just to say; seeing how all of that is today via the youth around me, it give's me plenty of cause for concern. And I have no clue how to help them because our young lives couldn’t be more different.