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Oh, how I loathe jumping on the bandwagon!

We all know Winston's game.

Can it work?

I mean, seriously, it's a true test of analytics. Winston is a good QB. Great? No.

Key question? Can you build a contender with an average to above-average QB?

I always hate paying QBs. I'm byass. Jamies is the type of QB who could make you lose your hair!!

GO BROWNS!

While that may or may not be true, drafting a LT just to draft a LT may yield another Jedrick Wills.

I think we should see this QB before we go nuts drafting to early for a QB ... Bailey Michael Zappe (/ˈzæpi/, ZAP-ee)[1] (born April 26, 1999)[2] is an American professional football quarterback for the Cleveland Browns of the National Football League (NFL). He played his first three seasons of college football for the Houston Baptist Huskies and used his last year of eligibility with the Western Kentucky Hilltoppers, where he set the FBS season records for passing yards and passing touchdowns. Zappe was selected by the New England Patriots in the fourth round of the 2022 NFL draft and mostly served as backup until becoming their primary starter near the end of the 2023 season.

What do you suggest the Browns do? Sit Winston so they can "see Zappe"?

He started 6 games for New England last season. He threw for 59.9% completions and he had 6td's with 9int's. New England waved Zappe after preseason this year and as we can see, New England isn't exactly loaded with QB talent.

That issue was compounded by the fact that they were hell bent on drafting a RT that never played LT and proving that: tackles are tackles. Unfortunately, not only were they wrong in their evaluation of Wills, they passed up on a player in Wirfs who was also a RT that is now a 3-time Pro Bowler in 4 seasons who now is also playing LT and putting Berry's Wills pick to shame again this year as Wirfs blocks for the NFL's leader in TD passes through the first 8-weeks (mmmmm, QB Baker Mayfield).

You're saying it was that they drafted a RT to switch him over to LT and said that tackles are tackles that's the problem?


So it has nothing to do with saying tackles are tackles and drafting a RT to play LT. It has to do with them picking the wrong RT to play LT? If that's what you're saying we certainly agree.


If the bottom line here is that you feel we can't trust Berry to make accurate draft evaluations I certainly agree with you.

What your post tells me is that tackles are, in fact, tackles after all. Wills issues don't seem to be related to the position switch, but a couple other things. Also, wasn't Wirfs a guard when he was coming into the league?

His draft profile has him as a tackle.

I must be thinking of someone else.

Add: Nope, I wasn't. Multiple draft-analysis sites mentioned him being potentially better suited at guard. Obviously they were all super-duper wrong about him being limited to RT or G, but that kinda goes back to my original point.

Neither Zappe nor Winston are anything more than backups. The jury is NOT out on either of them. There’s plenty of tape. One of the greatest coaches in the history of the game could do nothing with Zappe. Winston is a .500 QB who will look fantastic for a few games and absolutely give other games away. About half. I invite you to refresh your memory on the high highs and the lowest lows that is JW. I mean, he got to the other30-30 club long before Shohei. That’s impressive! He’s a great guy and a good leader and he can’t help throwing the ball to the other team. We got supremely lucky Sunday, we all saw the dropped int’s. There will be many more not-dropped int’s with Winston. We have 9 games Left, we will maybe win 3 to 5 more. They will be fun. The losses may also be fun but they will almost certainly be followed by pressers with quotes about how we have to protectant the football. But try as we may….

The point? Our QB of the future is absolutely not on the roster and he isn’t coming via trade with DW’s contract still on the rolls. I don’t know anything about this years college crop but all efforts should be turned to that aim. If the QB decision gets pushed to next year, we’ll be looking at full rebuild as the A-list players contracts begin to expire and they bolt. You can’t expect them to wait around and we’ll have to be strategic about money and age and timing and cap moving forward. And if we’re waiting that long, we’re going to suck for a long minute and I would expect some sort of turnover top side. Which will make some happy, some not, but puts us squarely back at the roulette wheel that has been so So SO cruel to us for 2 and half decades. Gooooood luck!

All of this is IMO of course.

JW and Joe Flacco are very similar. They're about the same size and have a strong arm. They're lifetime completion % and passer rating are very close. JW has a higher % of interceptions. I do agree our QB of the future is not on the roster but the guys we have can be a bridge to whomever.

JW and Joe Flacco are very similar. They're about the same size and have a strong arm. They're lifetime completion % and passer rating are very close. JW has a higher % of interceptions. I do agree our QB of the future is not on the roster but the guys we have can be a bridge to whomever.

Not sure how reliable this information is but he seems pretty certain that going out to get watson was initiated by Berry

I pretty much agree with all of that. We need a QB early in next years’s draft or perhaps 2026 but I prefer next year, if we love a QB, that is.

Winston might be able to hold down the fort another year or two, and he might be our last best shot in the window that is closing fast.

If the Browns don't drop 4 picks from Lamar we don't talk about the Hamilton drop. If the Ravens don't drop the other 4 picks from Winston we don't talk about it. There were missed plays from both sides that could have made the late game drop meaningless. I suppose we missed making two less plays than they did, the pick and the last throw of the game. That's football.

I agree with you.

Agreed. Just like the Chicago Bears!

If you allow need to be the determining factor in drafting a QB the odds of failure are greatly increased. Desperation is generally a recipe for disaster.

The only thing they need to be careful of his what I call "the girlfriend effect". Once your girlfriend starts to nag you all of the time, wants you to buy her expensive things all the time and generally starts to make your life miserable, all the other girls start looking prettier. That can lead to even more bad decisions.

Ok, but what’s the alternative? Not draft a QB?

Waiting to next year and making do I think is going to be your answer (?) but so much comes down to circumstance and opportunity. And it’s always a gamble. I’m guessing we’ll be picking in the 3-10 range this year. Who knows next year, probably similar. But I’m confident we’re going to be sucking eggs for the next two years (at least) regardless.

I’m not saying pushing the QB decision another year is the wrong course, it may well be the right one but fact is, the rest of the team is going to start deteriorating quickly if we just tread water. We need to make a move as soon as the right opportunity is within reach. We don’t have the QB on the roster (if anyone thinks JW might work out, I’m confident everyone will snap out of it within a few games).

We simply cannot trade for a valued QB with DW’s contract. The remaining options are to sift thru veterans or go poking around practice squads hoping to get lucky like flea market combers looking for a Van Gogh. Therefore… It’s the draft, that’s where our QB is, period. And it’s always a gamble, always. I agree you can’t go in with wishful thinking and you need sober minded, proven QB people to do the picking but so much will come down to what’s in front of us and where we are in the order any given year.

Truth is also (and Im aware this sounds super neg but it’s where I am with this team right now) I’m not sure we’re a team where QB talent can be nurtured and allowed to mature and thrive. Regardless of how you feel about Baker, we’d be STOKED to a have a player with his numbers and abilities right now. And we chased him off. Half the fans HATED him. Clearly the FO didn’t believe in him. I didn’t love him every game of course but he was the first QB draft pick I full throatedly supported and I thought he showed enough to camp out long term with him thru the ups and downs. But we want damn near perfect right out of the box. Sometimes I look at other team QBs and wonder if we’d allow them to grow long enough or if we’d yank em out roots and all. I’m not sure we wouldn’t have traded Josh Allen, chased off a Lamar, let Purdy languish on the practice squad.

I don’t know. I said this a bunch during the dark ages (our 1-31 years) but I have grave doubts that ownership knows how to run a football team, period. And organizations with bad heads are usually bad organizations throughout, regardless of industry. I liked Berry and KS. They gave me a lot of hope that ownership was learning. I have way more doubts now about Berry now, especially as it pertains to QB’s but the thought of the Haslams selecting another GM who will functionally work with KS is just so unlikely. So a clean sweep and reboot, FO and QB? Gawd help us. I think I’m hoping the stay and they somehow just luck out with a QB and then don’t shoot him in the leg or trade him for a ham sandwich.

So instead just draft a QB to draft a QB? There will be players on the board who are #1 at their position while the QB position may be down to the third or fourth rated player at the QB position.

Every draft pick is a risk. Increasing that risk by a wide margin isn't always the best move. I'm not saying don't draft a QB. I'm saying any time you make a move out of desperation it's usually the wrong move.

I think part of DTR being the backup that game was gameplan specific. The Bengals had struggled against the Lamar/Henry offense of the Ravens. I think the Browns saw DTR as more able to replicate that dynamic that gave them trouble. The threat of the QB run seemed to give Henry more room inside. I think we had a package we wanted to use to try to exploit that. The emergency QB can't play unless the other 2 are both hurt. If we wanted to use the package, DTR had to be the backup or we'd have to carry 3 QBs on the game day roster which would have been tough with how banged up we were/are.

DeShaun getting injured threw that plan out the window.

This may be wishful thinking, but I think Berry might be too collaborative at times. I think he lets people tell him this is the guy I want, instead of just getting the traits they want from whomever and finding it himself.

Like I think Ika was a Schwartz choice that Berry let himself get talked into. I think Watson was a Haslam "choice" he let himself get talked into.

Hopefully, he can get to a place where he can tell people that they aren't talent evaluators and let him and his people do that part of the job. Take in all the what traits they want from everybody involved, but keep them out of the specific players. I think the results of those could help him there. "I listened to you and look how it turned out."

Could be some tinted glasses from me there, though.

I also think there's an experience component. Berry didn't have a ton of it. I don't think the "way to draft" is necessarily the issue. I think they have good processes in place. I think the way the FO and coaching staff operate is good/functional. Now they just need to get better at doing it. Berry and Stefanski are hopefully taking their lumps and learning their lessons. They both were essentially "rookies" when they got their jobs. Sometimes learning what not to do is more important than what to do. Both seem to have the right mindset to learn those lessons. I'm not sure if that can rub off on Jimmy, but I've got my fingers crossed.

It's become a very long process.

I'm not sure there is a better way. And I'm not saying that to completely contradict what you were saying, though it appears that way. Sometimes looking for a better way gets one into trouble. Sometimes looking for a better way leads one to see something that isn't actually there. I think that's kind of the problem with a lot of the picks that fail. They're searching for the positives, the better.

So, yes, there undoubtedly is a better way. Perhaps, though, that better way is more in the things not done; Eliminating the negatives. Unfortunately, I think that can also cut both ways. Figuring out which "negatives" are correctable is tough. Wirfs had an obvious negative of getting beat inside way too often. But, that negative turned out to be fixable. Wills negative in the want to department was less obvious, but appears to be more intractable.

The problem the Browns have had for over 2 decades now is that they have always put more emphasis on the HC and FO than they do the team. Guys like Dorsey, Reid, Harbaugh and the like is that they build their teams dependent on the talent skills of their QB's. That is the exact reason they are successful year after year. Berry and Stefanski have now tried to change the playing style of 2 first round drafted QB's and failed miserably. Now, a person can say that Mayfield and Watson were/are vastly overrated as 1st round draft picks but you need to ask yourself, why were or is both players performing at a QB top 5 level when they are away from Stefanski, Berry, and the Browns? Ask yourself why any person would draft/trade for a player only to change what the player has been successful at?

If the podcast is correct (I have no reason to question it), then Berry started this Watson BS more likely because Mayfield wasn't his draft pick like most GM's screw up and do. He then hired a HC that would never allow a gun slinger to be his QB. So, the Browns are in a rebuild again with no 1st round pick on the roster under the age of 25, 230M still flushing down the drain, a HC that cannot coach elite talent, the chance that after 5-years - Berry and Stefanski could/should have a losing record, and a team that will have the most roster dead money of any roster in the history of the NFL for 2025.

I said these two should have been fired 2-years ago. After numerous attacks for my opinion, here we sit - 2 years later in a worst position than the teams been in in years. LOL, and we still have people defending these bums and hoping for a high draft pick so they can screw it up again at QB - LOL! The Browns will never draft a quality QB until they hire a quality GM and HC that builds the team around the skill set of the player - Berry and Stefanski have clearly proven they cannot and will not do that!

I will argue that Green Bay figured out how to draft QBs.

Maybe, they did. Apparently, the key to drafting QBs is drafting them before you need them to play, and when there is a solid team around them.

In my opinion, you have to have an identity on offense. Browns haven't developed one. Well, you could argue they did. Obtaining Watson was an option to get a proven QB. The theory that you can build a team around a good quarterback was debunked.

I believe you need a QB that fits what you are building. Pittsburgh is a good example. We all had reservations when they signed Fields and Wilson.

Everyone questions what Berry and Stefanski are doing, but they are learning.

Berry's drafts? You don't see him make a mistake twice. Example: Tillman vs Schwartz; Hall Jr. vs Elliott.

Might be a bit soon to tell on Mike Hall. Also had Ika between Elliott and Hall.

Not having first round picks for awhile also makes it somewhat harder to judge Berry's ability to draft. Hit rate outside the first round drops precipitously league wide.

Definitely think Chubb's injury was problematic on the identity front. Having great players that are fundamental to your identity is awesome.... Until they go down injured. Then you're kind of flailing in the dark. Sometimes you catch lightning in a bottle a la Flacco, but that rarely lasts.

Unfortunately, there are no injury proof identities.

In some ways, an identity is something the team has to build every season. It's not as easy as just saying this is what we're going to be, though. Gotta feel out what works as you go and hone in. When missing starting OL and RB most of the off-season and the QB is on a pitch count and in a non-contact jersey, that appears to slow down the process of that identity coalescing.

As bad as some people think Berry has been, I think they overestimate what's out there. We've had some ridiculously dysfunctional groups. Berry hasn't been perfect, but no GM is. Haslam would also actually have to pick this better possibility. This better possibility would also have to agree to come here. Would this person want their own coach? Would that work out? Would our players fit those systems?

Personally it feels like a situation where the hope for better leads to an outcome with a solid chance of being worse.

Yes, the whole DeShaun saga sucks, but it was a rather anomalous situation, and Watson was far worse than I think even the harshest critics predicted. It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall with Berry and Stefanski discussing why it failed so horribly and how they can avoid anything like it ever happening again.

Bull, Ika was and still is a needed piece. Hall Jr. is the high-motor pass rush from the inside. They need the NT to anchor the middle to stop the run.

As for the identity needing to develop each year, I do not believe it is a rebuild. You may not have the same players, but add the pieces that fit your model.

The offense was built around play action and quick execution. Watson is not that type of QB. I see it more clearly now, but you are adding oil to water and expecting it to mix.

Will Watson's contract make things difficult? Maybe. Everyone criticizes the fully guaranteed contract, but is it that much different than 90% or 80% guaranteed? That is what most QB contracts are.

I think we Browns fans grow impatient. We see other teams make changes and presto it works whereas the Browns make baby steps and half works. In the long run, all this effort will pay off. If you think about it, we are an above-average quarterback away from success. Maybe Stefanski can take an average quarterback and make him above average. Remember Winston chose Cleveland because of Stefanski's philosophy.

Ika is no longer on the team. I agree that we need a NT to stop the run...still do...the problem is that Ika was a tub of goo then and still is. We wanted his dump-truck a$$ to be a Ferrari and he's a Tonka toy. The FO knew they needed a NT and HE is what they settled on. We blew a 3rd on a track star convincing ourselves that we could develop him into a viable WR. We signed OBJ thinking he'd suddenly not be a distraction anymore. Watson has been a one-read-and-run playground QB his entire life...and we want him to stay in the pocket. A zebra doesn't change its stripes. How many more swings does this FO get in trying to turn a player into something he's never been?

FWIW, I am highly critical and skeptical of AB/KS...but I am not yet in the firing mode.


I don't think that's the straw that broke that camel's back.

I guess I am in the firing mode. I worry that if you give them enough opportunity then the Berry & KS duet will show you just enough to make you think that this time it will be different. But we're into yet another cycle of underperforming when things looked like we had turned a corner. I'd like to move on now before we lose another 3-4 years.