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...a poster that clearly has an agenda...
Ah, but that is the part that is not so easy to figure out.
Some posters are very transparent in their agendas. Others who do not have agendas get accused of having them becasue of things they post.
I've given this some thought.
If we see a poster who offers say, misleading stats for instance, we often assume that they are being decietful in an attempt to further their position. Especially if they argue their point even after having been informed the stats are misleading. From some posters I've seen do this, it is apparent that they really don't realize that what they are posting is misleading because that is not their intention.
Their intention is to offer their opinion and give "facts" to back it up.
I remember back when I first signed onto the board I did similar things. It was never my intention to be misleading or to back-up an agenda. I had my opinon and I thought I'd gathered facts that backed it up. I thought I'd interpreted my "facts" correctly and argued my case.
Over time, through an open-minded reading of posters more knowledgeable than myself, I realized and finally saw the holes in my theory and the incompleteness of my "proof". That took considerable time. You see, I am very hard-headed. 
I've come to believe that we sometimes label, privately if not publicly, that so-and-so has an agenda but what we are really seeing is someone trying their level best to figure out what is going on and they believe they've hit on it.
I posted stats in a 5 win season that proved the Browns were ranked very high in pass defense due to the low number of yards we gave up passing. At that time it never occured to me that teams didn't pass on us as much because they could "run at will" and beat us handily.
As a result of my thinking I defended some less talented DB's because they were a big part of that highly ranked pass defense. In fact, my lack of understanding in interpreting stats lead to a nearly wholesale misunderstanding of many phases of the team's abilities. And I argued my point and gathered my stats and found anything I could to defend my position even though I had no agenda.
What I thought I had was the answer and I was patiently willing to pound it in everyone's head who would read my "insightful" findings.
Still, I had no agenda. The definition of agenda as it is used on this board is that of a "hidden motive". I had none.
And I guess that's my point.
Not everyone who posts misinformation, misleading stats, or fiercely argues their position actually has a hidden motive. What they have is a desire to figure things out on their own and they believe they have done that and are only trying to help others understand.
On the other hand, there are also those who have stated a position and fight to the end that position even after they've been taught the folly of it.
They fear themselves to be exposed as stupid and unknowledgeable on the sport of football if they find themselves wrong and admit it. They refuse to believe they are wrong, based on that fear, and will not relinquish their position to the facts. The facts, afterall, to them, is just someone elses version of the issue.
So they desparately and foolishly defend themselves looking for any morsel of informaton, be it stats or otherwise, to make themselves and their original position look right.
We have a few of those on board as well.
The tricky part for us is to be able to distinguish between one and the other so as not to discourage those who really want to learn. Calling them out for having a hidden motive in their posting on a certain issue is baffling to them and an insult as they do not have a hidden motive and wish not to be labeled as such.
Those who do have a hidden motive are not likely to ever accept the fact that they can be wrong on certain issues and are a lost cause so far as I'm concerned. They feel they cannot be taught anything to the severe degree that they ignore facts in favor of their own ideas. To this sort, being right is way more important than being understanding and knowledgeable.
The evil part of me likes to humiliate this sort into submission. It's wrong. I know. But I consider it a noble cause because I don't want unsuspecting newcomers who join the board to learn about the Browns to be mislead and confused by an agenda driven idiot.
So if we are going to rid the board of agendas we must first qualify if a person actually has an agenda and if they don't then we need to carefully encourage them into seeing the facts and they will come around. It's touchy.
And if they do have an agenda they need to be killed. 
#gmstrong
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Possibly one of the most insightful reads to date..
Ya know, you are probably right.. I need to consider that more I think... I'll probably think of your post everytime I see stats that seem to prove or disprove anything.. I'm sure it will cause me to reexamine my own thinking..
Pull stats out of it for a second.. what I was refering to is a poster, and I really can't remember who it was to be honest, who was so sure that the leading cause of RAC not being a good coach was his inability to manage the clock... Also, that Cowher was waiting in the wings for RAC to fail. (sounds a bit like an agenda to me,, how about you?)
Like you put it, some of the best have blown it.. yet it seems as if RAC has to be perfect and then some to get any slack from some posters..
Or so it appears.. same things are said about DA as well.. Hey,, bottom line, we won 10 games with him as QB.. warts and all, he isn't as bad as some make him out to be, but he's probably not as good as some would have you believe either...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Pull stats out of it for a second.. what I was refering to is a poster, and I really can't remember who it was to be honest, who was so sure that the leading cause of RAC not being a good coach was his inability to manage the clock... Also, that Cowher was waiting in the wings for RAC to fail. (sounds a bit like an agenda to me,, how about you?)
Since you said "How about you?" I'll respond to that.
The first thing could very well be the person's opinion. Personally, I don't think it's enough to label him not a good coach overall. But it's at least a fact. The severity of it depends on how bad he has factually been and what importance one puts on that. Can that one issue make him a bad coach overall? I don't think so. But it is something he has to learn from and improve on. At least that's my opinion.
The second thing, about Cowher, is just made up crap because unless the poster knows Cowher personally and has talked with him about this then it is made up. It could also be an opinion based on what I certainly don't know. Wishful thinking?
Like in everything else, there has to be a body of work to analyse anything. An isolated quote is not something that can be judged to a determination of whether it is this or that.
I am not a psycological expert on any of this to be sure. I've just done some thinking on it and shared my findings. I'm pretty sure though, from my position, that I'm not going to scrutinize every post to try and decipher whether or not it is an agenda. I'm here to talk football...
...and today, to talk uneducated psycology I guess.
That's all I have to say about that.
#gmstrong
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That's all I have to say about that.
Ok Forest,,, Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get! 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I also love the fact that we have a person like Romeo leading them.
That's a big statement considering you thought he lied either to Hamilton or about Hamilton to the media. Can't remember which...but I know you were close to that situation.
So have your feelings changed on that?
He wasn't being truthful when he was asked about why he cut Hamilton. He said Justin wanted to go on IR. I looked at that as a flat out lie. This has stuck with me for most of this season. What he said wasn't putting Justin down, just not the truth. I don't even know if he realizes what he said. The question was only asked once and he didn't go into detail.
Now I didn't care at the time about any possible explanations.
I was ticked off.
Justin was told the reason he was cut was because of injury, and it became a numbers game. The Browns did make the right decsion to me in hindsight. I would have never said that at the time because I love the kid. Now I still question what people were telling him while he was rehabbing. He was told they wanted him to come back but we picked up Sorenson a week before he was ready. That doesn't mean they were lying to him but rather there was more than one opinion. I wish I knew for sure.
He will be picked up when rosters expand, just not by the Browns.
I do know that his players love him and that he doesn't have a lot of baggage. I believe he is a good person.
So, I guess what I'm saying is I have changed my opinion of him. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt now because I have learned more about him and I am not taking things so personal. The fact is, I think I was more upset than his Mom. I have loved the Cleveland Browns since 1974. I would constantly tell her what a great organization the Browns were. The fact is this team is a business, just like every other team. I built this team up to be something it wasn't. I think that had played a part in my reactions.
#gmstrong
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The definition of agenda as it is used on this board is that of a "hidden motive". If this is indeed the case then I'd be hard pressed to label anyone on here as having an agenda. Most, and by most I mean the vast majority, post on here just to voice an opinion. We all follow the Browns and we all have opinions on nearly every facet of the game as it pertains to the Browns. Doesn't mean one person is right or another is wrong. It just means we all care. Now I have seen some BS posts on here. Not many, but a few. And they're usually easy to spot. But that's life on the Internet. Some seem to forget that. They see this place as a shrine, as it were. And they are highly indignant if someone "violates" that shrine. My feeling has always been that as long as the language is reasonably clean (doesn't have to be PG but definitely not XXX) you should be able to post what you think. I mean, this is a board about football. Not something that will be read by a 3rd grade teacher to her class. I also know I am probably in the minority in this opinion. That's OK. It's happened before, believe me. Anyway, what I'm getting at is that essentially I don't think anyone has an agenda or is a "hater" (another of my least favorite phrases on here). We're just here to trade opinions at our virtual neigborhood bar. Except Diam......he wants to have Brady's baby..... 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Except Diam......he wants to have Brady's baby.....
I always thought Diam was male.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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He is. We're just not sure what species.......
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Quote:
The definition of agenda as it is used on this board is that of a "hidden motive".
If this is indeed the case then I'd be hard pressed to label anyone on here as having an agenda. Most, and by most I mean the vast majority, post on here just to voice an opinion. We all follow the Browns and we all have opinions on nearly every facet of the game as it pertains to the Browns. Doesn't mean one person is right or another is wrong. It just means we all care.
Anyway, what I'm getting at is that essentially I don't think anyone has an agenda or is a "hater" (another of my least favorite phrases on here). We're just here to trade opinions at our virtual neigborhood bar.
I think you've summed it up extremely well. 
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Cheers my friend!!!! Just allow a country song once in a while. 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Legend
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He is. We're just not sure what species.......
Excuse me please
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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"And I think what annoys me more is that people who should know better are just ignoring these assinine comments and then question or rip on people who praise DA. Sorry bro............but it's lame."
Its more or less a debate...not a Judicial matter.
I'm not here to judge people's posts. I have an opinion like everyone does about the QB situation. I try to make my case.
I am not going to go out of my way to cherry pick all the garbage that gets put out there Pro or Con to my opinions on a subject.
I will tend to pick some posts...THAT I HAVE READ THOUGHROUGHLY - and go into it and will pick apart the nonsense when it disagrees with my opinions.
Those that do agree in general...heck sometimes I will  when I read it but I figure thats somebody elses problem...I am not the teacher, the enforcer. I'm just a guy from Long Island (why does that sound better if I say Jersey) who loves my Browns/Football.
I've even stopped going banana's when people say stuff like...I agree with what EO says...and then make up their own version that is far from mine.
But not all posters have agenda's...some do have tendencies. Heck for how long was I blasted for being a HOMER
Btw - DA's Accuracy is terrible and his touch sucks...lol 
I couldn't understand the life of me what people saw in DA...then I went to a game (Jets vs. Browns). Man did he throw a beautiful ball...Far superior to BQ. Accuracy was pinpoint...This was in warm ups...and all I could say was - WOW!
Then we went to 7 on 7's and then onto 11's on 11 - The QB I saw in warmups disappeared - But I can see how people went to Training camp and fell in love with him. I now see how RAC held open the competition for him as long as he did.
But from the games...I fail to see how some can think he is accurate. The thing about the many deep passes is BS...his highest % of innacuracy comes from short passes. I have seen certain passes that he excelled at consistantly...then I saw him working on certain passes to improve. I think he got much better at the Bootleg pass. But his Deep out pass seemed to disappear of which I thought he threw a great one.
His Goal Line Fade routes were terrible which had a lot to do with Touch and Accuracy. I think his Long Bomb was terrible...again Touch and Accuracy. Oh yes, He would have one or two that were perfect...BE's long one against the Ravens - But for the most part his Bombs were not good...When he tried to put touch on it they were far off. When he tried to power it with a lower arc they just weren't that accurate enough. I think though those are two passes (Fade, Bomb) that he most definately can improve on.
Then there is the pocket. When he has a great pocket with space he sets his feet nice and steps up into the pocket nice...But once he goes a little lateral - he does not re-set his feet well. And thats me trying to understand his bad throws rather than just surmize that he is not good.
I am sorry we just can't talk football. I try - I can say there really isn't anyone that I hate here (I ignore Corpus but even that is getting old and no, it has nothing to do with the fact that he doesn't like DA).
I know many times we end up on terrible terms - but I still wish to talk football with you and be friends. And I'm so happy for you that you can finally sink your teeth into our Browns team and call them your own again! Man all these years I felt sorry for you cause you were like a man without a country. Now Brown's football is back for you. Stuff like that makes me happy so I know I don't dislike you.
What it really comes down to Vers on the QB subject...Some weren't that impressed with his successes as others. The successes were there as facts. TDs Wins etc.
As for the ones who despise DA because we lost the Cincy game...thats rediculous. (more so the Browns board and not here). But I'm not here to clean up their act. I defended DA on my Time to Give DA his Due thread...but once the season is over. I'm back on track speculating on whats in store for us.
As always JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Supposedly, Bill Parcells wants Romeo Crennel as his coach in Miami. Rather than going to Miami or anywhere else, Crennel could be in position for a contract extension.
I do think that is going to happen..
While I like Rac, I do think he going to have to improve on some things..ingame things..
I think his demeanor is such that it pushes other people who want to see him react emotionally..and he's not like that..
Men who are are reserved always tend to annoy those who are emotional or need to see a display of emotions from someone..but that reserved spirit allows the team not to panic ..
I'm not going on and on about DA..this isn't the thread but just a quick retort to Vers..DA is a inaccurate passer in certain areas on the field..for me it's not a agenda..because if you check all my posts...I have only said what I think the Browns will do based on whats I've learned..
I point out what I see and how the stats I posted in that Anderson thread back it up..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 01/07/08 10:57 AM.
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Legend
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While I like Rac, I do think he going to have to improve on some things..
I think his demeanor is such that it pushes other people who want to see him react emotionally..
I must be reading this wrong, because I'm pretty sure you wouldn't ask that RAC change his demeanor.. just to satisfy those in the fan base that think he doesn't show enough emotion
I believe RAC is a solid guy who has his own, unflappable style.... It appears that the players respond to him the way he is... Changing that sounds like something That I'd never require of him..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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U are reading it wrong..not wanting Rac to change his demeanor..just improve upon things he does during the game...
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Legend
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![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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U are reading it wrong..not wanting Rac to change his demeanor..just improve upon things he does during the game...
I kinda thought I had what you wrote wrong.... THanks for clearing that up..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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like clock management.
How many times did RAC actually mis manage the clock last season? I can only remember once... But there has got to be more given how many times fans have said something about it..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Which one do you remember?
The one that stick with me the most is Game 15, at Cinci... got the ball with about 1:45 left around our 25 or whatever.... at least twice we should have spiked the ball after getting a first down, but didn't. Instead, we ran the hurry-up, letting precious seconds tick off the clock.
Also, took to long to use our final timeout.
To be honest, no other instances stand out for me in particular, just a general feeling I got...
gmstrong -----------------
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1st String
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^u think thats on RAC?
the hurry-up is executed by the QB.....theres another thing to blame on DA....not the HC. spiking the ball means you have less downs.....its a judgement call either way.
but we dont know if the grass would be greener going the other route, so its merely speculation.
Last edited by choco; 01/07/08 02:06 PM.
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Practice Squad
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Bud Shaw in Monday's Plain Dealer has a great column regarding RAC's contract extension. Now is not the time; and as for RAC being "the face of the Browns" (according to RAC's agent) ---- ummmm, no thank you.
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...as for RAC being "the face of the Browns" (according to RAC's agent) ---- ummmm, no thank you.
You're too late. He already is.
#gmstrong
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First of all.................after reading all the negative comments, not just from you--but from many posters, I would never believe that DA threw for almost 3800 yds; had 29 TD passes; 10 more TDs than picks; led a team that challenged the all time points record in Cleveland; won 10 games; etc, etc. Hell.........I would think the guy sucked and put up Tim Couch numbers. Amazing.......simply amazing. Now to the personal stuff. <<sigh>> Quote:
I know many times we end up on terrible terms - but I still wish to talk football with you and be friends.
If we were friends, you would not say--or insinuate--that I was a liar. Saying things like I was shrewd means I am trying to deceive people. I don't try and deceive anyone......and I sure as hell don't lie.
I think there are people on here who can tell you that they NEVER caught me in a single lie. And I know you can't talk to my friends, co-workers, acquaintances, etc but if you could....they would ALL tell you that I NEVER lie. In fact, they may say that I am brutally honest...*L* ........but, they know I don't lie. That is a big one for me. I made a vow when I was a child to never tell a lie again.........and I've stuck to it. So, when you call me on that.......sorry tab......but them's fighting words.
You wanna talk football.......we can, but stop w/that BS about me trying to deceive people; lie; or making things up.
Back to RAC. Willie.......you said that RAC brought in Baxter and Big Ted. Well, I don't know about Big Ted, but Baxter was brought in by Savage. And I imagine that Savage brings in all our players. He may get advice from RAC......he may consult w/RAC.......but blaming that on RAC is wrong. And no, ddubia, I ain't saying he has an agenda. *L*
Secondly, you mentioned the challenges. You really haven't heard that those are called in from upstairs?
Two more things on RAC.......
1. I think he has to improve on game management, but I have a feeling that Chud has more to do w/that than RAC. Don't you guys?
2. There is another theory out here stated as fact that RAC won't play young guys. That's ludicrous.
Here are some rookie starters under RAC:
Charlie
Edwards
Wimbley
DQ
Joe
Wright
And there were others who received significant playing time:
Pool
Williams
McDonald
I figure that playing time is a result of performance in practice and commitment during meetings and film study, and then when they do get in the game. It's not that he is unfair to younger players. And let me tell you something......as an ex coach, I can tell you that your veteran players are generally more reliable than your inexperienced guys.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Late to the party.
Kinda funny reading parts about "agenda" and whatnot, but in the end, I don't see RAC as the face of the franchise.
To the fans who are extremely knowledeable about the team, Opie is the face of the franchise. Not RAC, not Lerner, and certainly not any of the players. It's Savage.
Now if someone in the lockerroom is the face of the team, well, the team and the media have made Edwards the face of the franchise. Again, it's not RAC.
Crennel got too much blame when we sucked, and he's certainly getting too much credit here. He was blamed by some (not me) when the team couldn't win because we had backup players starting. In fact, we were starting players who can't even get jobs in the league just a year or two later 
On the flipside, we had an unbelievably easy schedule combined with some serious luck in the injury category. RAC was blessed with an offensive coordinator that finally understood how to move the ball, and a shot-in-the-dark QB who happened to show up when we needed him the most. Again, RAC's actions aren't responsible for a team that was in the basement in '06, and aren't responsible for going 10-6 in '07.
The big thing RAC has going for him is that the players like him and play hard for him. That's half the battle, and one thing that I've defended him with since day one, even though I don't believe he's a very good head coach. I still see serious issues in many of the things he says during conferences, and scratch my head regarding how poor his game management is. I think a contract extension is an extreme over-reaction at this point, and I disagree vehemently with anyone that says he's a "lame duck" head coach if he's not given a contract extension right now. His agent can rot in Hell for all I care, as his words aren't worth the time it took to type'em
Too many people jump to over-reactions about everything in the microcosm of NFL football. Too many people wanted to give DA a huge contract extension after his first 5 games........but haven't been heard from since. Too many people went after Savage without waiting to see how his drafts played out, while many others heaped him with praise despite not seeing any real results. Too many people blamed Lerner without allowing him to find the right people for the job while understanding (yet not accepting ) the fact that he was new to ownership.
The truth as I see it here is that RAC doesn't deserve a contract extension. Not in any way, shape, or form. He had his power stripped from him by Savage because he couldn't pick his own people, yet he deserves several more guaranteed years because of this success built on the heels of some great luck and the decision making of Savage's draft picks and coaching selections?
Please. Mangini's greatness sure took a hit when his team was exposed after a "smoke and mirror's" campaign of unexpected success.
RAC will probably get the extension for the sake of perceived continuity, but in my book, he has only deserved some accolades, not a contract extension. If he can manage to repeat this year's success, then an extension may be warranted, but not now.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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1. I think he has to improve on game management, but I have a feeling that Chud has more to do w/that than RAC. Don't you guys?
Mike Golic was talking about this subject on Mike & Mike this morning. He thinks the tough offensive decisions in the NFL is by committee with the QB having some input as the HC and OC discuss it. He says the majority of the time the final call is from the HC.
I don't think that necessarily always the case. I'm sure the HC would defer to the OC's opinion at times.
I also think, and I got this watching one of our games this season when we suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere, ran a gang of running plays in a row and wondered if, at times, RAC might notice the opposing defense showing signs of tiring, (he should see this before anyone if he's watching), and tells Chud , "they're getting a lil tired and sloppy, run a few to this or that hole".
He could notice the same kind of thing with their DB's. If he sees someone looking confused and struggling at a certain point he may call for something to take advantage of that.
I now you didn't say so, but being a head coach is a lot more than having the best seat in the house. I can't imagine that the HC is not deeply and heavily involved in everything that's going on. I'm also sure that when the team is on a roll, be it offensively or defensively, he takes the luxury of allowing his coordinators to keep it rolling.
But if it's me and it's my job and I'm the one who has to answer to all the stupid questions for the week following the game I'm going to make a lot of decisions come gameday and am not going to depend on others to protect my reputation for me.
What do you think?
I went out today and got me a real nice hat and a shinny badge so's I can be the Agenda Police. LOL Actually, I think the other day I got a little tired and needed a nap when I came up with all that nonsense.
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What do I think? I don't know who is in charge of clock management when we have the ball. I know I have called plays before and it would be counter-productive to have another guy managing the clock for me. You get why.....right? But, I can't say for sure that RAC doesn't manage the clock when we are on O. I brought it up because RAC got blamed for it and are we sure that RAC is the one calling timeouts; telling the OC when to call two plays; and when to spike the ball? You feeling me? As far as the agenda thing goes........*L* You said what you said very eloquently and actually made a sound argument, but methinks you may be a tad gullible.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Sometimes I just want to see if I can write on a subject. Back to football. Quote:
it would be counter-productive to have another guy managing the clock for me. You get why.....right?
Although you make it sound like it should be obvious I'm having trouble with it. I'm guessing maybe that if I'm calling plays I don't want a timeout until I feel it's necessary. Either I'm on a roll and don't want it interupted or I want to have a timeout available to me when I feel my guys, or I, need it.
If we've only got two and one gets called when I'm not ready for it, it would kinda be like the rug getting pulled out from under me. Take me out of my rhythm.
Plus, with only one left I'm now reluctant to use it if I can in any way avoid using the last one. I'd probably like to save that if the situation becomes dire and it was essential that I have it.
I can see, depending on down and distance, field position, and the time on the clock, the where an OC could be hog tied if he couldn't make those judgements for himself including those you mentioned of when to call two plays, when to spike the ball, etc.
Is that making sense?
#gmstrong
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Yes.
Let me give an example. Say I am the OC and you are the Head Coach.
I start off by calling two plays. We throw a slant over the middle for about 12 yds. We hurry up to the LOS while they are moving the chains and are getting ready to run our next play and you call a timeout. I get pissed, because I was going to call another pass over the middle before I used a valuable timeout. I want to throw over the middle because the opponent has a tendency to flood the sidelines during the 2-minute drill.
Alright.....my next play is a pass to the flat that gets about 8 yds. I want to hurry up and run a draw, pick up the first down and then use my timeout. But you order the QB to spike the ball, which negates us running the ball on the next play because we don't want to not only fight the clock but fight the down as well. You are working against me.
Does that make more sense?
Here is something that might make more sense. We communicate through our head sets. I outline my strategy......usually two plays ahead. You quickly mull it over and say ......."it's a go," or "I would feel better if we did....."
I would say that is more plausible. And I will also say this.........if your HC is constantly overriding the OC........than you have problems. I get the feeling that RAC trusted Chud this year. That's pure speculation on my part and I could be wrong. Just a feeling I have from watching body language and knowing what kind of guy RAC is.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Totally new territory for me. Thank you for even bringing it up.
It brings me back to a question I've never been able to get an answer for from anyone. What exactly does the head coaches job entail? There are practices and there is gameday.
For the past two seasons the only thing anyone seemed to know for sure was that when we lost it was all RAC's fault. Then, this season, when we started scoring points and winning, all the credit was given to others. Usually Chud. Of course, the losses were still attributed to RAC.
Does anyone actually know what the heck the head coach does on gameday?
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Well..........it varies from coach to coach. Some coaches are more involved w/playcalling or defenses than others. A guy like Reid is going to call his own plays. Other guys, like Marty last year, leave all the calls to their coordinators. I think most communicate w/their coordinators and either give them the go ahead or suggest something else....as I talked about before. I do think that head coaches in the NFL don't do as much coaching as they high school coaches do....or as coordinators and position coaches do in the NFL.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Kind of a vague question, hehe.
Depends on what kind of coach you have. The ones that call plays themselves will spend more time in specific area's, while the ones that tend to let their assistants call the plays and schemes will be more administrative and coordinate with their coordinators.
It's more about getting all the assistants on the same page than anything else, and making sure everyone is buying into the same gameplan. Everything that involves putting together the gameplans are done during the week.
Now what I don't know involves how much control each HC has over their people during the game. I'm sure that each HC has veto power at some point during the game, but if he's a coach that's worth anything, he won't undercut his coordinators unless it's absolutely necessary. I also have very little idea what they communicate to their coordinator's during the game. I'd love to have an extra headset during that time
It's when the game is actually going on where I question RAC. As noted, the players play hard for him, which is vitally important, but to this point, I've seen very little in his game-day coaching that makes me feel confident in him.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Now what I don't know involves how much control each HC has over their people during the game. ... I've seen very little in his game-day coaching that makes me feel confident in him.
?
I'm kinda dumbed down tonight watching the Bucks.
If you don't know how much control he has over his people during the game, what is there to question about his game-day coaching? What does he do or not do that raises questions if you don't know what he's supposed to do or not do?
My suggestion is that he has as much control over his people as he wants to have. (I just want to dispel anyone reading that as possibly someone else decideing how much control he has on gameday).
Now before you might think I feel he's been perfect, I don't. The Steelers game comes to mind with the double time-out/challenge misfire. We'll never know the real inside story on that. But overall I don't remember his decisions having any major negative effect on the outcomes.
I guess that's what my vague question was getting at. What does he do, what is he responsible for, and by that, how much credit or blame does he get for his job in carrying out his specific in-game coaching responibilities?
Did I just ask the same question again only using more words? 
I do know he takes the blame for all of it by watching his pressers. But Vers has raised a question that makes me wonder if he isn't taking blame for in-game calls made by others.
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I'm kinda dumbed down tonight watching the Bucks.
And why were`nt you posting on that thread...we needed all the support we could get..
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I was too busy banging my head into the wall. 
#gmstrong
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I was too busy banging my head into the wall.
Me too ....Now I will let you get back to buisness......And give me a shout stranger......
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Legend
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^u think thats on RAC?
the hurry-up is executed by the QB.....theres another thing to blame on DA....not the HC...
I doubt DA or a lot of other QBs would be given carte blanche in the 2-minute drive. I'm sure someone was talking in DA's ear during that drive, or signalling in, telling DA what to do.
That's on the Head Coach, ultimately (and I like Romeo, not bashing him) but whoever was managing the clock effed it up. Bottom line.
gmstrong -----------------
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Back to RAC. Willie.......you said that RAC brought in Baxter and Big Ted. Well, I don't know about Big Ted, but Baxter was brought in by Savage. And I imagine that Savage brings in all our players. He may get advice from RAC......he may consult w/RAC.......but blaming that on RAC is wrong. And no, ddubia, I ain't saying he has an agenda. *L*
Secondly, you mentioned the challenges. You really haven't heard that those are called in from upstairs?
Vers,
The way I look at it...RAC is in charge of these things. If, after three years, we still can't get challenges right...or even reasonably close...then either RAC needs to get a new guy or RAC needs to be completely removed from the process.
A little ridiculous? Yes. The point I'm really trying to make is that it ultimatley falls on RAC as long as he's throwing the red flag.
Same with game management...even IF Chud and Gratham are screwing up the game management...it's up to RAC to get that straightened out. Those guys work for RAC.
Re: Big Ted and Baxter. My comments were in regards to keeping both guys coming out of camp this year. If Savage forced the decision, then the shame goes to him. I would bet that RAC made that final call.
I think RAC can get better at these things and he is a better judge of talent than I'll ever be...However, I would simply think that with as long as he's been in the league...these issues would not be the ones that are so frequently noticed/discussed and cause us to lose opportunities during games.
That said, I'm sure there are 100 other decisions that get made during the week and the game that I'll never know about...and I get to nitpick over 3 specific areas that may or may not be in his direct control. But...these areas seem so glaring that one would think we should get those right after 3 years.
I'm trying to not be overly/unreasonably critical...but he keeps making the same mistakes over and over...and I'd like to see that corrected.
Willie's Agenda: Try not to die a little every Browns gameday...support the Browns at all turns...get RAC fired and DA traded...own Cleveland Browns and reduce stadium beer prices immediately  (Where is the sarcasm graemlin?)
There...now it's not hidden anymore. How's the church camp song go?
This little light (agenda) of mine...I'm gonna let it shine.
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1st String
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I still don't deserve to be disrespected about my opinion!
LOL ... Mr. Melodramatic. It wasn't about you having an opinion. It was about being happy and congratulating yourself on the Browns not making the playoffs. And it was even more about all those posters who skipped right over your post because you happen to be a DA Hater.
Here is what you said:
Oh and for your information (since none of you have the back bone to say it)
I will pat myself on the back for guaranteeing we would not make the playoffs at the end of November. Of coarse I got bashed but guess who got the last laugh!
Patting yourself on the back and getting the last laugh because the Browns did not make the playoffs?!? Despicable!
You just don't get it do ya. I felt the post that was made was ridiculas, Last regular season loss?? Playoff possibilities.
I saw certain fans making unrealistic predictions and said at the time that I guarranteed we would not make the playoffs. Guess what I got responses such as yours like (despicable). That is all good and fine but I say if you can dish it out than you should be able to take it.
So I came on and made a point to tell the ones who bashed me for my prediction that I'm still here and you were wrong!
I don't know why I'm trying to explain this to you because you have proven in the past and present that you are the only one who is right around here and that you are a legend in your own mind.
Now that I think about it you and I are one in the same. 
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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If you don't know how much control he has over his people during the game, what is there to question about his game-day coaching?
Things such as challenges, ebb and flow of the game, calling timeouts, working the ref's, and adjustments that may or may not be made.
When I'm critical of RAC, it's not because of his playcalling. I'm critical of how he manages the timeouts, the challenges, and how well he can use his vast knowledge to adjust at halftime. Regardless of whether or not his coordinators have control over the schemes, RAC has a wealth of knowledge beyond all of'em, and should use that experience to help things. There have been times when, IMHO, we've been outcoached in the 2nd half. I'd expect RAC to be able to match wits with most any offensive mind, hehe.
Now mostly that speaks to the defensive side of the ball where his bread-and-butter is. If anything negative happens on offense, that's mostly on Chud or the players, as his offensive guys are gone and replaced with Savage's. Does RAC have input to the offense? Probably, but I wouldn't put much stock in it, based on everything I've seen and pieced together over the last few years. That's why I tend to give the offensive credit to Chud. If the defense gets a few more players and his schemes start doing well, I'll give him the credit, as I view the defense as his.
To the point: it's mostly the things I can see that worry me with RAC. I don't judge him on most of the things I can't see during the week.
Oh yeah, one thing I forgot. It's easy to dismiss his poor choices in coaches as "rookie coach" issues, but he's spent way too many years in the game to not know good coaches from bad. That's another issues alltogether, but if a guy forms a reputation that's problematic, he has to work to overcome those problems. The confidence slate isn't simply wiped clean because we started a new year.
On one hand, going 10-6 is a great thing for he and his team, yet while it's easy to say "Hey! He didn't pick his schedule!" that doesn't change the reality of the situation. I'm for him sticking as the head coach if he can fix his problems, but like Anderson, I'm skeptical.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I do know he takes the blame for all of it by watching his pressers. But Vers has raised a question that makes me wonder if he isn't taking blame for in-game calls made by others.
Except when he blamed that player for taking the timeout
Sure, he's inevitably taking blame from people for things he isn't actually responsible for, but in the big picture, isn't he ultimately responsible for everything that happens on the field? I'm not justifying all the criticism because some of it is bogus, but when I see a guy challenge a call that shouldn't be challenged, or doesn't net us anything of value, I question him. We can say it's the guy upstairs that gave him questionable advice, but it's RAC responsible for that guy? I'd also ask this question: Can he not see the replay of what happened on the big screen? The very last call I questioned was in the last game we lost (I think) where he challenged the spot of the ball that would have netted us two yards It's those kinds of things that make me scratch my head, especially after so many years in the game and as a head coach.
That's my take and I"m stickin' to it I like that the players play hard for him, but sometimes that isn't enough. Just ask "good guys" like Dave McGinness (formerly of Arizona) and the DC in Pittsuburgh who flopped as a HC in Cincy before Lewis took over.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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