DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2024 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 14 Steelers 27 Other Games

Lions/Packers tonight - should be a fun one

That Lions D is decimated with injuries right now. Hopefully it will still be a good game. I'll be rooting for the Lions all the way!

yeah the Lions injury bug is really bad at the moment

Didn't know they had a bunch of injuries on D. Sounds like the under was a bad move by me tonight. Oh well lol.

j/c...

What a 4th down call by Dan Campbell. Goff is criminally underrated.

Lions vs Bills Super Bowl would be great.

He’s been lighting it up lately.

Lions are the team to beat. Them vs Philly will be a great game

If Dan Campbell keeps going for it on 4th down like he is it might be the reason the Lions don't make the Super Bowl; like the NFC championship game last year.

with all the god awful glazing of the chiefs, its really easy to root for the lions, its easier for me because they were my grandpa's team, lions and braves.lol Wish he was around to see this team.

Cincy catches a break with a punt gaffe - wins in Dallas

You can thank the Great John Dorsey for that.

I keep forgetting that Allen was the same draft as Baker. I'm always thinking he was a year earlier.

GM says the FO was split between Baker and Allen but the majority favored Baker. I would bet money Depo favored Allen and that's one of the reasons he's still here.


It was "football guy" mentality that had much of the league down on Allen. People argued his dismal accuracy in college and claimed "that hardly ever improves at the NFL level".

I argued it did not matter and still can't believe we passed on generational talent.

Why did it not matter? Who cares about 2.4 passes per game (the difference between 55% completions and 65%) when...

You have someone who can throw all passes from all angles to all parts of the field.
On the run or from the pocket
With finesse or 60mph
Who can throw a ball through a brick wall
And can throw the ball 80 yards
Who can pick up a 3rd or 4th and 1 at a 90% clip

Who can run through a LB...
and then runs like Gronk in the open field.

This was literally the biggest miss in Browns history.

Myself and others have said this before... it's just too easy to hindsight the Allen pick to death. I stick with the argument that Allen would never have lasted here. No way.


2018 was the Hue Jackson -> Gregg Williams nightmare. Then we tapped Freddie Kitchens for his one-and-done tenure. Then KS.

McDermidt (sp?) was hired, IIRC, for the 2017 or 2018 season. He showed up in Buffalo either the same year or year before Allen, I thought. Those years are a blur for me.

Side note: I thought the story was that Depo also wanted McDermidt at one point when/if he was available(?).


The shine kinda wore off SM the two season previous to this one, but I think the important part for Allen has been relative consistency in coaching and offensive system and a continual push to make things better/easier for Allen, especially during the first couple seasons which were a little rough.

I'm not hindsighting it, I said all those things before he played a down in the NFL. They were already on film for the whole world to see.

And I've argued about whether he would have lasted here before. There is no way in hell we would have cut ties or favored keeping someone in the FO or coaching staff over Allen. Although he was rough around the edges out of the gate, he was still making plays that jumped right off the screen. Not jumped off the screen for a rookie, jumped off the screen as nobody has or ever could do "that".

I'll admit I'm very passionate in my opinion (read: not trying to be a jack@ss). Truth is, this, more than any of the other b.s. we've been served, has me "checked out" as a Browns fan. Angry, grouchy, more convinced than ever that we're irreversibly cursed.


It's easy to understand that Josh would still be here from this perspective:

Year one: amongst the warts were plenty of "wow, wth did I just watch!" plays. That would have been true anywhere. And nobody ever cuts even the baddest of the bad after one season.

Year two: vast improvements in footwork, mechanics, football IQ... and nobody cuts ties with even average high-asset QBs after two seasons.

Year three: He and Mahomes were 1a and 1b, period. He threw as accurately as anyone in the league and completed passes at 70% -- along with all the ridiculous plays that only he can make... along with big collisions that saw him pop up and look down to make sure a LB or safety would be able to get back on their feet. He was already a man amongst boys.

And our timeline of FO and coaches likely would have followed the same course. Jackson was always an utter failure. Kitchens was just as bad. Kitchens cost Dorsey his job. NONE of that would have cost Josh his job and he would have spent year three with Stefanski. I think the argument that he wouldn't have worked out here is near futile.

The problem was Dorsey, always has been.

He already had his mind made up he wanted Mayfield - never even entertained Allen or others. He'd been sniffing Baker's jock ever since KC terminated his ass and he wanted to get another GM gig. Once Jimma decided to hire "The Football Guy", it was a done deal.

Now every time I watch Allen play, I curse Dorsey.

J/c

I wanted Mahomes when he came out. No way to know he was going to be this good but i liked him a lot. Allen i didn't want to touch.... If i remember his passing completion in college was about 56% and that was in the mountain conference or wherever he came from. Quarterbacks in the NFL rarely if ever improve their accuracy from college, that was why I didn't want him. I saw another Strong-Armed quarterback like Kyle Boller and I was definitely not on the bandwagon, clearly I was wrong.

Really not much point in speculating on who might have done well on this. Brown's team, it seems like this organisation can make a poop sandwich out of any situation no matter how good it starts off.

Regardless of who we would have drafted at QB there's always the innumerable fact that QB's come here and their careers are ruined. If I were a parent and my son was a top College QB coming out, I wouldn't want the Browns to draft him. Not with their track record unless of course I was a Browns fan. I doubt very much if Deion would want us to draft his son. JMO

I respect your argument and moreso respect the passion behind it. But we simply disagree on a situation that can be what-if'd to death from either angle.

Mayfield set the rookie TD record and started out with KS on fire, and that wasn't enough to keep him around. A big reason for Josh Allen's success with Buffalo was their stability at HC and continued to commitment to support him and build around him. We... didn't have that in what would've been Allen's first 3 years here (and that's putting it mildly).

I'll point out the turnaround in both Geno Smith and Sam Darnold's career path as examples to amplify your point. Both considered wasted draft picks whose career never went anywhere.... until now. It's not as if the talent wasn't there all along. It was just that they were never put in the right situation to see it brought out. I mean I suppose someone could say, "Yeah but they're not Josh Allen". Which is true. But then Josh Allen wasn't drafted by the Browns either.

It took eight seasons for Geno to be anything but a bust. It seems like "right situation" was definitely a two-way street. It took seven years for Darnold. A combined nine different teams. I don't think these dudes were great QBs waiting to happen and all these teams were just clueless.

I'm not sure what "Yeah but they're not Josh Allen" even means, but I'll point out something that doesn't bolster the point... Smith spent four years with the team that drafted him and he was putrid. Darnold spent three and got worse as the years passed. But somehow people think Allen would have been dropped by the Browns before Stefanski even arrived in year three.

I understand BBS plays a part but I think the notion is basically absurd. And it's goofy to point to Allen's success as being fostered by stability, as if it was the saving grace in a QB with better tools than 98% of the QBs we've ever watched... but then look at Geno and Sam and say it was the first seven teams that got it all wrong.

If you spend three or four years being drafted by a team that lacks the ability to develop a QB you end worse than when you got there. Rather than maturing to the NFL level you develop bad habits that take longer to work out of you than when you were drafted. You regress rather than progress. It wasn't "the first seven teams" that got it wrong. It was their first team. The ones who drafted them. It's taken years for them to overcome that.

I'm not saying Allen would have been cut from the Browns. I'm saying trying to claim it couldn't have gone either way is what sounds absurd. Three or four years with bad coaching at the beginning of your NFL career can cause a lot of damage if you're not coached up right. And that damage isn't quickly or easily overcome.

I'll tip my cap to a fair-minded assessment, but we definitely have a big difference of opinion in one aspect. You make it sound almost as if these teams ruined them (both started with the Jets, btw, so your take holds a certain amount of water) and they played no role in the winding road that followed. Like the teams taught them bad habits. Fair enough, but we're ignoring the elephant in the room -- the elephant for all QBs.

Both of these dudes had to learn to take care of the rock and both were notorious for bad turnovers -- Darnold all the way back to USC. Nobody coaches you to turn the ball over and everybody coaches you not to. Hard to lay that blame at the feet of any "coaching".

QBs that learn to limit turnovers have the best chance of success in this league, QBs that don't only have a puncher's chance.

And as I said, I'm not discounting your opinion. It's simply as I see it there are coaches who know how to coach up QB's and those who don't. Certainly every coaching staff in the NFL tries to stop the QB's they draft from turning the ball over. They all try to teach them proper footwork and not to run into sacks among many other things. My assertion is simply that some coaches have the ability to accomplish those goals and some coaches don't. That's one of a multitude of reasons why great NFL HC's are so few and far between.

I'm not trying to take away from Allen and his development by saying he wouldn't have worked here. I'm saying you have to have both (good, stable coaching AND a talented QB) in order for an incomplete QB talent to thrive. You've made me think a lot about this... Browns really haven't had either, except maybe for Mayfield.