DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Stefanski and Berry

I agree, but in the end I would rather start the season with Chubb on the roster over over whoever might be the last guy on the roster.

There would have to be some conditions, like a low signing bonus, a lower salary with incentives. Also note I said to begin the season. If the guy is cooked, then you have to cut him or give him incentive to retire. I like Nick and what he stands for in the way he conducts his as much as anybody. Even so, you can't keep the guy around because you like him.

You might be able to do that with a guy who is young and you have hopes for his future upside. Nick has no upside. He has already been up, and the reality is he probably won't come close to where he was. Now the only real question is how low is his low going to be?

That remains to be seen but we can't get to the point we are cutting better backs just to keep Nick. That isn't going to help us win games. If it does get to the point we feel like we need to let him go we let him know so and Nick decides to retire a Browns player. Like I said earlier, there are ways we can thank him for that decision and work him some sort of thank-you bonus. Maybe IR him for the year. He gets paid, then retires.

I don't know, people smarter than I can figure all of that out.

We aren't a million miles apart - I just look at it being the glass being more half empy than it being half full. I don't know if that's because I am more pessimistic or more realistic. I guess open to opinion and interpretation. But using your list to add my 2 cents.


I'm not going to suggest you agree with all my comments - but to me, that means this is the list of STARTING positions needed this offseason:

QB.
RB1.
WR1.
3 OL players.
1 CB
1 S

8 starters. To me that's a LOT.

And what we haven't dug into here is the lack of quality behind the starters - some of the injuries have exposed glaring weaknesses. It's not impossible to get it right on 8 starters in an off-season. . . but it's damn hard.

After so many front office changes and lack of continuity for so many years - when Hue went 1-31 I was arguing we needed to give him more time and try continuity instead of rinse and repeat. Having seen how wrong I was then - having seen other teams seemingly change their fortunes by getting the right people in the right positions of GM/HC and how quickly a team's fortunes can turn around .... I'm ready to move on from Berry. Just my current outlook and no doubt made more ruthless by what I have watched on Sundays this year.

Very good discussion. I like the thoughts and agree for the most part. Where I disagree is I do think Jerry Juedy is a #1 WR and proved that when Winston was QB.

QB - I think this team needs a bridge QB next season. Because of Watson's salary and presence in the locker room it needs to be a veteran at this time. Kirk Cousins is perfect if the Running game can be improved.
RB - I don't believe we have to draft the top back in the draft and use that kinda capital on a back but in the 2nd or 3rd round a back similar to either of Ohio's 2 RBs would be a perfect fit. Junkins or Henderson.
OL - Keep the right side of the OLine together next year Wyatt Tellar and Conklin. Start Luke Wypler and Zack Zinter at Center and Left Guard and Jones at left Tackle. Bring in some younger guys in the early to mid-rounds to compete.
WR - Still need a speed guy to stretch a defense.
TE- Need a very good run blocker and another pass catcher

DL - Need another run stuffer up the middle that can put teams in 3rd and long.
LB - Need depth
CB - Need to find a legit starter opposite Ward
S - Need a Free Safety opposite Delpit.

On the surface it might appear that way. And it most certainly would have softened the blow. But allow me to pose an example. If you have great QB play and a lousy D because you lacked the resources to invest in it, that QB may be able to put 32 points on the board but that won't help you win if your opponent is scoring 34.

And that may not happen right away. It's a condition that would happen over time. The first round draft picks give you the opportunity to get top tier talent on the cheap for their fist four years. You can't get that anywhere else. Multiply that by three and it will eventually rear its ugly head.

I like Stefanski but he needs to find a way to get his kind of QB on the roster. He rightfully knew who Baker Mayfield was or is. A mediocre at best QB that could get to the playoffs but never be capable of winning a Superbowl. Career statistic prove that out including this year. He has lead Tampa Bay in a bad division to an average 8-7 record. That is who he is 7 to 10 wins each year as QB is his ceiling. The Browns have a very similar QB on the roister now in Jamies Winston. Just higher highs and lower lows with Jamies running the show. Stefanski needs a ball control game manager QB to compliment a strong running game. Why he and Berry thought that was Deshawn Watson is beyond me. Only thing I can think of was they seen Watson's gaudy stats and thought he could fit in any offense. That was a major failure. The QB that fit Stefanski's offense the best was Joe Flacco. But with Chubb out the running game fill apart and Joe had to be a gun slinger. I would like to see Stefanski sign Kirk Cousins to be his bridge QB until he is able to get the long-term answer at QB that fits his scheme. Rebuild the running game into what it was. The defense is not as good as 2023, but it is not terrible. A few tweaks and this defense can be effective with a strong running game and a game manager. The missing pieces is a consistent special team and the ability to win the turnover battle. Last few years this team has been horrible in turnovers.

I like Jeudy a lot - but I think he's a very very good #2. I think he can be a fairly medicore #1.

I think relying on Teller and Conklin would be a mistake. I'd put money on them not playing more than 5 games healthy together based on track record of recent years.

It is a good discussion - and maybe I am wrong to think of finding 8 starters and depth across the roster is too much to do in a sinlge off season. idk.

Comparing Winston to Baker tells everyone all they need to know. In Cousins last 5 starts he threw 9 int's and 1 td. He was then benched for their rookie.

And BTW- Stefanski can't sign anyone. He is the HC. Not the GM.

Winston and Baker's career stats are fairly equal. Look them up!

Not at this stage of their careers they aren't. Look it up.

Are you speaking of the Colts during the Manning years?

I get your argument. But look at the Bengals these past three years. They had their first-round picks and franchise quarterback. Their record?

I wonder how things would have turned out if the Browns had never traded for Watson and stayed with Mayfield. My guess is they would have made the playoffs and then fizzled out. We have better than what we have today but by how much? A different frustration?

I agree with you. They thought Watson was an upgrade from Mayfield. Statistically he was. In this offense or after his legal affairs he was not. I am glad we are still not holding out hope Mayfield would improve. He is still who he was here an average QB whose floor is around 7 wins and ceiling is around 11 wins a year. That is better than what Watson has shown but would he ever get us over the Ravens, Bengals, and Steelers. Probably not. What was his record vs those 3 teams? He was beating the Bengals but Burrow was just getting started and he was going to pass Baker rather quickly.

I suppose if you wish to cripple the debate by limiting the choices to either Baker or watson one could do that. There have been three drafts since the Browns traded for watson. And while not all QB trades or signings work out the way one would hope, The Vikings signed Sam Darnold to a one year 10 million dollar contract. Zero draft compensation. They are currently 13-2.

So yes, if you wish to constrict the debate to watson or Baker only I see your point. But since the time they signed watson there have been three first round draft picks the Browns would have had plus the FA market they could have used to try and address the position. So it's not actually a "Baker or watson" conversation.

And conversely would you rather be watching DTR/Zappe playing right now or Baker?

You have a zero chance of winning a SB if you never make the playoffs.

Turned on the Bengals game Sunday and watched Conklin get beat like a drum all game long. As of today we don't have quality tackle on the roster .. If Jones makes it back healthy , and in SHAPE , you may have one. i believe the OL is in worse shape than many will admit to.

I was not trying to make it Watson vs Mayfield. I was assuming that the Browns did not sign Watson. Mayfield would have been the guy.

Where in the draft would the Browns have been placed? I am assuming the fifteenth or higher. The odds get small drafting a quarterback outside the top five selections.

Darnold? Minnesota took a flyer on him and he produced. Did Sam figure things out in San Fransico? Would Stafanski have made it work in Cleveland too?

We don't know Berry's plan if Watson did not sign with the Browns.

The other argument is how anyone predicted Watson could not play at the minimum average. I get the dislike of the person, but to say nonfunctional is a beat of a stretch. Choosing any quarterback available other than Watson would have been a tough sale at the time.

Good responses by you and Day. Your thought process and mine are similar with a few minor things. I'm responding to a few of your replies from above:


RB - we technically need to add to the 3rd down back. My reasoning is if Chubb is still working back by the beginning of the season or as protection in case he just isn't productive. This could be done through a cheap FA signing or a day 3 late round pick.

WR - Regarding Juedy, I could be talked into him being a #2. However, a good QB (good luck with that Browns) and the passing route designs is why I can see him being the go to guy. I would love to say Tillman can be a #2, however with the limited time this would be me being hopeful.

OL - I can easily see needing 3 OL. Jones, Bitonio (if he decides to play). I think Pocic and Teller will be gone and Conklin is borderline for me. If Conklin goes it's because of cap reasons or FO wants new blood b/c of his history of injuries.

CB - Newsome will be interesting. I would love to know the FOs thoughts regarding him. I can see him staying, I can see him being traded. I could also see them moving him and seeing Cam Mitchell or Harden fight it out. I think some of it will depend on whos available in FA. I know CBs are pricey, though slot corners could be a little cheaper. Maybe they have someone already in mind they've been scouting from other teams. Secondary possibility is the draft.


The rest of your responses I can understand the reasoning or agree with.

Regarding your list for the offseason:


Keep in mind (hopefully) one of those spots will probably be a 1st rounder. This is if they don't go 1st round QB, which I'm not excited with this year.

Maybe they go Mason Graham to get your impact DT or a top CB like Will Johnson or they could go offense with a top WR or OL. Either way, the goal would be to pick a day 1 starter or someone that will become the starter after a few games.

The OL should come fairly cheap regarding C and G. Hopefully Wypler and Zinter will progress this year. Wypler was my excited pick when we drafted him. I thought he was one of the best picks for the later rounds, so I'm pulling for him. Either way, we need to bring in solid FAs for starting or depth.

Andrew Berrys 2020-2024
Another table

Proof or opinion? I took this from X just to show another angle of AB.

The Browns roster isn’t young and filled with talent any longer. Garrett, Ward, Njoku, Chubb and Bitonio, just to name a few, is on the backside of their career.
In two three seasons I think they’ll are probably gone.

The team lacks quality on many positions. Why is that?

The stats above show that Berry’s picks haven't been good enough to elevate the team to compete with the better teams. In fact the opposite.
When we on top of that give away three first and three third rounders the results become a given.
Without enough possibility’s to find low cost talents our chances to make our roster better erodes for every season we were without good draft picks.

The question for me is if Andrew Berry is good enough to rebuild this team to a level that we can win the division?

His track record so far says no. His decision making has been more than questionable and because of the Watson situation we’re financially restricted another two three seasons.

That’s for me enough to come to the conclusion that we need a new GM.
I respect all of you who think differently but in the end I don’t think our results lie.

I am fine with OPINION as long as it is pointed out that's it's just opinion. I'm not fine with it when its opinion being stated as FACT.


Because no team is perfect. Go to ANY roster in the NFL and it is not perfect.[/quote]





Your calling THIS proof LMAO

One click on your top link is not only opinion it's just plain WRONG. X post by some guy named Wildlife lover that list everybody as busts if they are not starting right now

Click on the second link and it claims Thomas and York are not on the roster but does not mention they are still on NFL rosters. Hell Bell is still with the Browns nice reporting there Robby Shnenenigans

Issah Thomas is still playing in the NFL
So is York, Harrison Bryant
David Bell is still with the Browns on IR
Willis was a Starter for 4 years
Newsom is our starting Nickleback.
Hall has started 2 games so far his rookie season
Wright, Zinter, Hudson, McGuire, Mitchell, Robinson, Fields, Ford, and Harris have all started for the Browns and the other guys listed are backups, which you need in the NFL with all of the injuries.

BTW that second link is by somebody who calls himself Roberto Shenanigans on twitter and he claims to be Personally foul, Moderate tomfoolery with bouts of debauchery. Music. Movies. Cleveland. Bad takes. I'm an idiot. Find me at @ robertoshenanigans.bsky

That's some top quality posts there

You can always trade up in a draft. Yes depending how far up you wish to move it can cost a lot of future draft capital but not three future first round and a second picks. You set up a scenario that yes, it only has a Baker or watson option. They already decided to move on from Baker but jumped the gun by giving away the farm for watson.

So yes, with a trade up they could have drafted a QB. And yes, they could have signed a different QB and had better results. Instead we are far worse off than we started even if you don't include all of the draft capital that was squandered. Our team is weaker due to losing those draft picks and worse off at the QB position. Despite your reasoning to the contrary there's really no way to defend that.

Some of the Baker Mayfield takes on this board are hilarious. He is skilled at play-action, can easily make any throw, stays in the pocket, has a cannon - with accuracy - for an arm and goes through progressions well (he does now anyway, not as well while he was here). That is EXACTLY the kind of QB Stefanski needs in his offense.

He does not have ideal size and can get himself in trouble due to his confidence in his ability (oh the horror of a skilled, confident QB). He was a Cleveland type of guy...the underdog...his teammates love him. He's a FQB...and we do not have one of those.

This notion that getting rid of him was smart because he will never win a super bowl is beyond ridiculous - as if anyone (let alone Berry) can identify THAT guy. The ONLY Browns QBs who have been to a super bowl did so on ANOTHER team. It's amazing how one douchy flag-plant makes fans of a college team hate the best QB we've had since Bernie.

Berry and Ski misjudged the FQB realm twice in one week/month. I have no confidence in them getting it right a 3rd time.

If you are trading up, are you not losing valuable draft picks?

Not three first rounders and a second rounder. How much depends on where you draft and how far you want to move up. But let's not pretend the compensation would be close to the same.

I agree with all of that. I've watched a few of his games, he's also become very "crafty" running the ball. Career highs in yards (almost double), TDs, first downs (21) and YPC. He also seems to always know when to slide. He's become a solid all-around QB. And he's a tough SOB that is always available.

I don't think I'm alone in saying it was a blast to root for "one of us". I wonder what last year would have been like with Baker at the helm.

I am curious if anyone else thinks this season is completely bizarre!

1. Stefanski gives up play-calling early in the season.
2. Dorsey is committing career suicide with how inept the offense played.
3. Quincy Carrier has an interesting take (Browns loss clears way path to land #1 overall pick - Week #17) on how Cleveland may obtain the first pick of the draft.
4. Cleveland obtains a ton of cap space restructuring Watson in August and December.
5. Why hasn't Stefanski taken back the playing calling duty?
6. The defense is playing hard every game.
7. Most of the starters are still playing. Normally you see starters going on IR for a hang nail.
8. The Browns are tanking the season, but why is no one in the media calling the Browns out?
9. The Browns front office and coaching staff are not acting like the worst team in the league. We've seen it many times when a team gives up with this many wins/losses.

I have not watched "Hard Knocks." For those of you who have, are you seeing dysfunction similar to when Hue Jackson was head coach?

In my opinion, everyone is thinking, "Same ol' Browns," except the Browns! I am guessing this should be a pretty crazy offseason.

I'll just comment on the Hard Knocks portion of your post. This rendition of Hard Knocks is about the entire AFC North. So while the length of each episode is the same it is divided between four teams rather than one team. As a result you really don't get a great look at the inner workings as it pertains to any of the four teams the same way you would if all the time was dedicated to a single team the way it has usually been.

As far as Hard Knocks there's been no talk of business driving.

When Stefanski curses on Hard Knocks it seems awkward. Like if Ned Flanders started cursing.

I'll always wondeedr who it was that said, "hey, let's dump Baker and pay out a kings ransom to get Watson"?

Since that deal was sniffed out, I said it was stupid. Nothing has happened to change my mind. I won't hold injuries against the kid, but when healthy, he's only had a handful of games where he played decent. That's not worth anywhere near $230 Million.

So to the person that thought that was a good idea and to the fans that thought Baker wasn't good enough, I give you all the Razberry award!

I hated the trade then, and I hate it even more now.

We were among the few who felt that way.,. I got beat on for my beliefs.

j/c

Just remember that the same people who punted Baker and stroked Watson also thought that going in to LAST year, it made sense to have ONE backup QB...the one and only DTR.

Nice verbiage

Just an update going into the final week of the 2024 regular season:

COACH_________TEAM___REG SEASON____PCT___#PLAYOFF__RECORD___PCT_TOT RECORD__PCT____DIV Titles
1. Harbaugh_____BAL______53-30_______.639_______4 (d)____2-3_____.400___55-33_____.625______1 (a), (c)
2. Tomlin________PIT______50-32-1_____.608_______4 (d)____0-3_____.000___50-35-1____.587______1 (a), (c) 18 straight years without a losing record
3. Taylor________CIN______43-38-1_____.531_______2_______5-2_____.714___48-40-1____.545______2 (b) (c) To Date: Only Super Bowl appearance for AFC North last 5-years
4. Stefanski_____CLE______40-43_______.482_______2_______1-2_____.333___41-45______.477______0 Neither the team nor Stefanski have ever won AFC North

(a) AFC North Crown to be decided this weekend.
(b) Cincy still alive for playoff berth.
(c) As of today, still eligible for the Super Bowl.
(d) 2025 playoff spot included since they have already clinched (Cincy to be determined this weekend).

The Browns have the only coach and GM with a losing record cumulative over the last 5 years within the division (AFC North). The Browns have had the highest team cash payout the last 2-years with 2025-26 looking like they'll be the highest again. Nothing better than holding on to your Head Coach and GM with a 5-year losing record, no Division titles, no conference championships, no Super Bowls (ever), and spending more money than any other NFL team at the "factory of Sadness"!

Just "KICKING THAT CAN DOWN THE ROAD"

Only one small, tiny weenie detail you are leaving out. Since 1999 40-44 giving the Browns the loss Saturday. This is still the team's best 5-year win loss record including 2 playoff appearances.

So, what you're saying is that since 1999 - 2019, the Browns were just a bowl of crap with 1 playoff experience and now they're just a turd floating in a punch bowl. Hmmm, actually, the best 5-year record was 2019-2023 where the Browns were 43-40 during the regular season. Freddie Kitchens only year as HC is actually 3+ games better than Stefanski results this year.

Winning has to start within the division. In most cases, you better be in the top 2 of your division to have a chance for the playoffs. The Browns have finished 2nd in the division 4 times since 1999 (25 years) and made the playoffs 3 times. The Browns have finished 3rd in the division 6 times and last in the division (including this year) 15 times now or 60% of the time. Stefanski's last place finishes: 2 in 5-years or 40%. To me, when you have the highest cash spend in the entire NFL year in and year out, 40% last place finishes is unacceptable. Posting the worst record since 2017 with the amount of investment in this team is unacceptable.

Chew on this a while, win by Mayfield and Tampa and they are in the playoffs - win by Hundley and the Dolphins this weekend and they could be in the playoffs. Two possible playoff
contending QB's discarded by Stefanski and Berry - yep, let's give them another extension for fine work!

So when did the HC start deciding on cuts and trades? I don't think you'll find that in his job description. So you think it's Stefanskis fault that the FO has given him crap QB's? In case you kissed it they already got an extension.

I do not believe that cuts and trades are purely a GM thing. In particular the cuts, I don't believe for a minute that Stefanski doesn't have anything to do with cuts. Stefanski might not have total control, but I don't believe he has players cut without his knowledge, input, or collaboration. I also don't believe they trade players without his input. No one would believe that Mayfield being replaced didn't have Stefanski's input or collaboration. If fact, I'm willing to bet that it started with Stefanski and grew from there.

At the time, we couldn't run Hundley out of here fast enough according to a bunch of people on this board. He didn't look all that great here but he's a capable backup. Also, calling Miami a playoff-contender is a stretch. They may be better than us but they aren't good.

I generally like Stefanski and would like to see him with a QB that fits his offense better than the ones we've had. That said, other coaches and GMs have gotten fired for far less than what KS and AB have subjected us to. I do understand why people want blood.

I'd be willing to say that you seem to keep making it sound as if he makes the decisions on such matters. Only the FO sets the value on players in regards to trading them. Only the owner and FO strongly consider the public image/PR part of the team. If they don't like the perception they decide to change it.

You make it sound as though a HC who made it to the playoffs with a QB the last time he was healthy decided he wanted to get rid of him because he was injured during the losing season that followed. The things you are describing are based on nothing more than your feelings.

This FO determined Watson was a QB they couldn't refuse. To do everything they could including a crazy contract and giving up huge draft assets in order to get him. Or do you think Stefanski told them to do that too? That watson could lead the Browns to a SB and Baker couldn't. Stefanski is well below that pay grade.

So far they are right in the fact Baker hasn't led anyone to a SB. But then again to have a shot at the SB you have to make the playoffs. So there's that.

And Stefanski even managed to make the playoffs with a guy they pulled off the couch last season. But I suppose we should just pretend that didn't happen either. Oh that's right, when Stefanski does something right is has to be luck.

Lamar Jackson has not led any team to the Super Bowl...neither has Josh Allen...nor Justin Herbert. The entire "QB to lead one to the Super Bowl" argument is total BS and crazy lazy.

DeShone Watson's playoff record is 1-2. Kurt Cousins' playoff record is 1-4. Baker Mayfield's playoff record is 2-2...his first playoff loss to that year's eventual Super Bowl winner with Jarvis Landry and Hollywood Higgins as his go-to guys...his second playoff loss to the Lions in a shootout in Baker's team's 'rebuilding' year after the GOAT retired. With a win Sunday, Mayfield will have back-to-back Division Championships.

Whomever is in charge of determining the QB for the Browns has been wrong every single time. (I might give someone credit for signing Flacco last year, but then "they" didn't want Flacco back so as to not hurt DeShone's feelings).

There is nothing about this organization that is irreplaceable...except for Jimmy's wallet.

So your theory is that this FO and Halsam gave a QB a 230 million dollar guaranteed contract, gave up three first round draft picks as well as a second round draft pick for a QB they didn't think could lead them to a SB? Talk about total BS and being crazy lazy.

By any measure it's the GM of an NFL team who makes personnel decisions.

I'm not sure how you could have actually read my post and not think that I agree it was a mistake to get rid of Baker.