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Originally Posted by Floquinho
.... start the rebuilding asap.

I'm not opposed to a rebuild starting now but IMO we still have a 2 year window to succeed if we can get a competent veteran QB. If we can't obtain one then by all means start the rebuild. I'm old and don't have a great deal of time left on the right side of the grass, but I'm to persevere through a rebuild.....


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Yes 2024 was a bad year. But why do the Browns have
more bad years than most NFL franchises?
How many winning seasons since 1999?
Yeah the Browns could reach 11 wins in 2025.
But look at the division they play in .
If the chips fall the Bengals way that's 3 AFC North teams
In the playoffs.
I don't see a Joe Burrow or Josh Allen in the draft to turn this
Franchise around anytime soon .
History has shown AB can't draft impact offensive talents
Maybe if the Browns moved on from AB I can see light
At the end of the tunnel

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Originally Posted by bonefish

Don't worry about the money. There are experts who will.

The experts that you’re referring to are the same “geniuses” who gave away three seasons of draft picks and a $230m monster contract to the biggest QB failure in the history of the NFL. Right now you don’t see the wood for all the trees being in front of you.

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You missed the point.

The money really is not the issue. The performance is the issue.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
You missed the point.

The money really is not the issue. The performance is the issue.

Yes it is

Originally Posted by steve0255
Originally Posted by bugs
If I am understanding this restructuring correctly, the Browns changed Watson's void year into a real year without adding salary. This gives cap relief in 2025. They can wave him after June 1, 2026, allowing the Browns to cut the dead money to 30+ million. Where is the cap hell?

This is what you don't understand: The Browns owe the books right now 172M of Watson's original 230M. The Browns have only accounted for 24.9% of Watson's guaranteed contract on the books the first 3-years. No matter how or where Berry moves the money (deferred bonuses in void years) the Browns will have to account for that guaranteed money sometime. A pre-June 1st cut would make it all due that season. A post June 1st cut would give the Browns the opportunity to spread it out over 2-years but in either case, they still have to account for the entire contract unless Watson has violated it in some way.

Pre-June 1st Cut Dead Money:

This year's dead money is $172,734,000

2026 dead money is estimated to be $99,799,000 provided the Browns account for the $72,935,000 planned cap charge. According to reports, Berry has restructured again so this number will go higher again.

2027 Watson is a free agent. Dead money still owed to the books will be $26,864,000 provided Berry records the planned $72,935,000 due in 2025 and 2026. Again, if Berry doesn't or moves money, DEVERTS, this dead money cost will be higher.

Right now, the Browns are over 17M over the cap for 2025. Berry is going to have to do something to free up some cap funds. The last 2-years he has had the highest cash payout for any team in the NFL and already predicted to achieve that again in 2025. Someone would have to explain to me how you can have the highest cash spend and be tied for the worst record in the NFL? Yep, let's keep Berry and Stefanski: one spending money like it grows on trees with no results and the other posting a 5-year losing record - makes sense to me - LOL!

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Money has not been the issue.

We are starting Bailey Zappe who followed DTR who followed Winston who followed DW.

The Browns trail only the Titans in turnover rate. Guess who is picking second in the draft?

The Titans.

You do not win games that way.

You talking cap now and showing numbers is wasted space.

You don't know the Browns cap and the contract plans for 2025. The 17 number means nothing right now.

Do you really care about the money Haslam spends?

Do you believe you know more than Berry about the Browns cap and their contract plans?

You will find out in 2025 the Browns will have money to spend.

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I care about the money in the sense that without an answer at QB, we're also likely going to have to go above and beyond FA contract-wise to convince anyone to come here.

Because we tied up so much money in a bad contract, we're likely going to have to add more "bad" contracts to add "impact" FAs. The team just isn't attractive to most players.

That's kind of the problem I have with the just sign Cousins crowd's idea. Why would Cousins want to come here? I don't think the "his contract would be cheap" line of thinking works from his side. At least not with the offensive roster we have now. Might give a discount to a team with a Super Bowl shot, doubt he wants to come get blasted behind our seemingly broken OL.

So while yes, we have money, I'm not sure spending more money on potentially similar albatross contracts is really a solution. If Cousins were willing to come for the vet minimum for 1 year, great, but that just seems unlikely to me. We'll likely have to pay the "the team looks awful tax."


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JMHO.

I do not believe money will be a factor with the Browns plans for the coming season.

What is more important are their overall plans.

The entire coaching staff will be evaluated. People will be let go. New people will be hired.

The quarterback room will look a lot different. There will not be a designated starter.

Schemes will change. The team will churn a third of the roster.

Money has no impact on those changes.

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Some people believe the bill never comes due.


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Originally Posted by bonefish

Do you believe you know more than Berry about the Browns cap and their contract plans?

You will find out in 2025 the Browns will have money to spend.

I don’t need to know more than Berry.

Public numbers don’t lie and with a bit of common sense it’s not so hard to understand the problems this organization is facing in the next coming years.
Currently we’re light years behind the best and last in our division. To catch up we need much more than money, the last couple of seasons has unfortunately shown us that even with too much money we couldn’t catch up.

This’s what incompetence and bad decision making do to this franchise.

Hopefully you will one day see it like it is and realize that having the right people making the decisions is the only way forward.

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My vision is pretty good all things considered.

I only need reading glasses. Thanks for your concern.

Cleveland trailed only the Niners in spending in 2024.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cash/_/year/2024/sort/cash_total

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Originally Posted by bonefish
My vision is pretty good all things considered.

I only need reading glasses. Thanks for your concern.

Cleveland trailed only the Niners in spending in 2024.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cash/_/year/2024/sort/cash_total



In 2024, the Browns were out spent by the Niners by $2,999,064 or a bag of footballs.

BROWNS CASH SPEND
2026 REAL TIME = $181,521,140 - 6th - 30 players signed to date
2025 REAL TIME = $259,383,980 - 1st - 45 players signed to date
2024 cash spend = $329,448,825 - 2nd - 53 players signed
2023 cash spend = $293,519,168 - 1st - 53 players signed
2022 cash spend = $278,044,412 - 3rd - 53 players signed
2021 cash spend = $238,941,551 - 3rd - 56 players signed
2020 cash spend = $225,326,256 - 14th -52 players signed

Clearly the highest cash spend by any team over the last 5-years, and we have as losing record over that time period. For any business - THAT'S A PROBLEM!


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The thread was about having money to spend.

Currently being $17m over cap.

When the time comes there will be money to spend on free agents etc.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
The thread was about having money to spend.

Currently being $17m over cap.

When the time comes there will be money to spend on free agents etc.


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At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Some people believe the bill never comes due.

Do you think the bill comes due for the billionaire boys club? Come on man…

The cap is for fantasy fans to worry about, not actual teams.

Last edited by OCD; 01/04/25 10:53 PM.
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Originally Posted by OCD
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Some people believe the bill never comes due.

Do you think the bill comes due for the billionaire boys club? Come on man…

The cap is for fantasy fans to worry about, not actual teams.

No, this is not about the billionaire club. I think everyone knows Haslam has the money. The problem is that every team has a specific amount of money (the cap) to spend each year. Because of the Watson contract and the money moved each year by Berry deferring that cost, the Browns cannot cut bait with Watson because they still owe $172M to the books for him. Watson has collected $138M in payroll but the Browns have only recorded $58M of that $138M. Add in the other 12-15 players that Berry has played fast and loose with and that is where the issue is about the bill. Come on man...


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Apparently you haven’t figured out the owners use the CBA like a loosely written guideline. It was crafted to insure it went up annually so vet players got a fair share. Now, unless you are a star vet, you either take a below average deal or you get cut. And Berry has proven multiple times that they built in a ton of loopholes a team can leverage almost indefinitely. And when the bill does finally come due, the cap is high enough to absorb it painlessly. Unless you sign a rapey mental cripple to replace your young Franchise QB. But that’s not a cap issue, that’s a step on your own junk issue.

The billionaires never get to lose, anywhere.

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Sometime this week the Browns will fire some people.

Dorsey is most likely gone. Andy Dickerson, Bubba Ventrone also will most likely be gone.

I think there is a good chance that DTR, Zappe and Winston will be gone.

I do not think Myles will be traded but I could be wrong.

Change is coming.

The offense will not be the same.

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The Browns wasted NO time firing these two. Clearly, Stefanski thought they were the main issue. I'll assume KS goes back to calling plays.


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Who is responsible for hiring these two..?

Those who hired Dorsey and Dickerson should be judged for their poor judgement also.


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Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
The Browns wasted NO time firing these two. Clearly, Stefanski thought they were the main issue. I'll assume KS goes back to calling plays.

It will be interesting to see if we hire a play caller capable coach or not. Clearly the move to Dorsey as play caller only sparked outrage and disappointment with fans. laugh

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Looks like KS has the same eye for talent as Berry.


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Originally Posted by FrankZ
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
The Browns wasted NO time firing these two. Clearly, Stefanski thought they were the main issue. I'll assume KS goes back to calling plays.

It will be interesting to see if we hire a play caller capable coach or not. Clearly the move to Dorsey as play caller only sparked outrage and disappointment with fans. laugh


bro im still confused why Stefanski didn't call the plays for Winston knowing Dorsey has a different style.


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By

Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com

BALTIMORE — After their dismal 3-14 season and four straight games with 10 points or fewer, the Browns have fired offensive coordinator Ken Dorsey and offensive line coach Andy Dickerson, a league source told cleveland.com.

As Dorsey walked out of the locker room and headed to the bus after Saturday’s 35-10 season-ending loss to the Ravens, he looked upset.

It was the second time he’s been fired since the Bills let him go after 10 games last season.

The Browns were last in total points with less than 15 per game and close to last in total yards and rushing yards. In the past four games, all losses, they’ve scored 7, 6, 3 and 10 points, respectively. Dorsey, the former Browns quarterback, was hired after last season to replace Alex Van Pelt in a major overhaul of the offensive staff. The re-do was an abject failure from start to finish.

Kevin Stefanski considered relinquishing playcalling to Dorsey at the start of the seaons, but retained the chore through an abysmal 1-6 start, with a struggling Deshaun Watson at the helm. He turned it over to Dorsey Oct. 27th against the Bengals, and at first, it seemed like a smart move. Jamies Winston, who replaced Watson when he suffered a ruptured Achilles tendon Oct. 20 vs. the Bengals, averaged more than 300 yards per game in his seven starts, and set the club record with 497 in the loss to the Broncos.

But Winston was prone to interceptions --12 in his seven starts -- and they earned him a trip to the bench for the final three games of the season. Dorian Thompson-Robinson started Weeks 16 and 17 against the Bengals and Dolphins, and the turnovers continued.

The Browns finished with a league-high 34 giveaways, and last in the NFL with a minus-22 turnover differential. They threw a league-high 23 interceptions, including some on ill-advised play calls, such as many passes to Elijah Moore in the red zone and end zone. He finished the season with a league-high nine passes for him intercepted, including Bailey Zappe’s pick-six in Saturday’s loss to the Ravens.

As for Dickerson, the Browns first-year offensive line coach, he had a tough act to follow in Bill Callahan, who left the Browns to join his son, Brian, in Tennessee. His absence was a tremendous blow to the offensive line, which stumbled out of the gate partly due to injuries at offensive tackle.

By midseason, the writing was on the wall for Dickerson, with assistant offensive line coach Roy Istvan taking on more reponsibility, and Browns consultant Mike Vrabel stepping in to try to help save the day.

During practices, Vrabel began to spend the bulk of his time with the offensive line, moving over from tight ends, where he helped new tight ends coach Tommy Rees in the early going.

Vrabel was hands-on with the o-line, giving them defensive looks and helping them hone their technique. Dickerson sometimes looked like the odd man out in the early part of practice open to the media, standing off to the side and watching.


As I said a few weeks ago outside of QB Dorsey and Dickson were the two biggest problems on offense.


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Originally Posted by Swish
Originally Posted by FrankZ
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
The Browns wasted NO time firing these two. Clearly, Stefanski thought they were the main issue. I'll assume KS goes back to calling plays.

It will be interesting to see if we hire a play caller capable coach or not. Clearly the move to Dorsey as play caller only sparked outrage and disappointment with fans. laugh


bro im still confused why Stefanski didn't call the plays for Winston knowing Dorsey has a different style.

I wonder if the change was already in the works and it was just bad timing? It does boggle the mind.

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Not much of a surprise. It seems as though Dorsey has the opposite of the Midas touch. Allen really went completely beast mode this season without him and we looked like garbage with him.

Given the article earlier that talked about players being extremely confused, I wonder if Dorsey over complicated the offense. He’s a very smart dude. There’s no debating that. I wonder if he structures play concepts in such a way that it’s hard for non-nuclear physicists to comprehend.


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I wrote they would be fired before I read it.

It was automatic.

The offense is going to change.

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Originally Posted by mac
Who is responsible for hiring these two..?

Those who hired Dorsey and Dickerson should be judged for their poor judgement also.

I have no idea who made the choice on Dickerson but it was very wrong. I can tell you it wasn't Kevin's idea to hire Dorsey.


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Originally Posted by dawglover05
Not much of a surprise. It seems as though Dorsey has the opposite of the Midas touch. Allen really went completely beast mode this season without him and we looked like garbage with him.

Given the article earlier that talked about players being extremely confused, I wonder if Dorsey over complicated the offense. He’s a very smart dude. There’s no debating that. I wonder if he structures play concepts in such a way that it’s hard for non-nuclear physicists to comprehend.


this is also another one that's weird to me. while we as fans have our gripes about Stefanski's play calling, it was more centered around the flow of the game. i don't immediately remember any of the players themselves mentioning that stefanski's offense was complicated to learn.


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Originally Posted by GMdawg
I can tell you it wasn't Kevin's idea to hire Dorsey.

Thanks for that bit of information. I had suspected as much but had nothing substantial to base that opinion on. My suspicion all along is that it's Haslam and AB that are desperate to make the watson deal work out and no matter what they feel they need to do in order for that to happen they will do it. I believe they felt bringing in someone to tailor the O around watson rather than have watson work in a better system was their idea all along.

After a 1-6 starting record for watson this season I hope that has shown them that it isn't the scheme. It's watson. And let Stefanski run the team again rather than make decisions for him that make him look bad and the fans will blame him for.


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Originally Posted by Swish
Originally Posted by dawglover05
Not much of a surprise. It seems as though Dorsey has the opposite of the Midas touch. Allen really went completely beast mode this season without him and we looked like garbage with him.

Given the article earlier that talked about players being extremely confused, I wonder if Dorsey over complicated the offense. He’s a very smart dude. There’s no debating that. I wonder if he structures play concepts in such a way that it’s hard for non-nuclear physicists to comprehend.


this is also another one that's weird to me. while we as fans have our gripes about Stefanski's play calling, it was more centered around the flow of the game. i don't immediately remember any of the players themselves mentioning that stefanski's offense was complicated to learn.

Sometimes it even seemed like opposing defenses didn't think it was hard to learn as well. wink

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Originally Posted by FrankZ
Originally Posted by Swish
Originally Posted by FrankZ
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
The Browns wasted NO time firing these two. Clearly, Stefanski thought they were the main issue. I'll assume KS goes back to calling plays.

It will be interesting to see if we hire a play caller capable coach or not. Clearly the move to Dorsey as play caller only sparked outrage and disappointment with fans. laugh


bro im still confused why Stefanski didn't call the plays for Winston knowing Dorsey has a different style.

I wonder if the change was already in the works and it was just bad timing? It does boggle the mind.

From part of a long article on the 2024 season...

When Winston took over as QB1 with Watson lost for the 2024 season to the Achilles injury and the Browns sitting at 1-6, Stefanski relinquished playcalling to Dorsey. This prompted Winston to approach Stefanski with questions, according to a player source. Winston had signed with the Browns in part because of his eagerness to run Stefanski's offense, believing his strength lay with play-action and under-center work. Stefanski, the source recalled, was understanding of Winston's concerns and told him to trust the staff's ability to maximize his skill set and retain elements with which he was comfortable.

No big announcement was made to the team or offense regarding the playcaller change, according to multiple player sources. One player found out when Stefanski was asked during a midweek news conference. Another noticed when the week of preparation began and Dorsey was the one calling plays.


https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...evin-stefanski-andrew-berry-jimmy-haslam

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It was obvious when Stefanski handed over is horrible play calling to Dorsey that Kevin was protecting his own job. Dorsey should have never been hired, he is horrible as I've said many times in the past. Dickerson was just as bad. Every single other offensive coach should be fired as well, including the person responsible for hiring these morons.


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As for Dickerson, the Browns first-year offensive line coach, he had a tough act to follow in Bill Callahan, who left the Browns to join his son, Brian, in Tennessee. His absence was a tremendous blow to the offensive line, which stumbled out of the gate partly due to injuries at offensive tackle.

There is a bit more to the story concerning how the Browns Head Coach and Management filled the Bill Callahand's OLine spot. They had other options...

...when Bill Callahan was hired by the Browns in 2020, the Browns also hired an assistant OL coach to work under Callahan in 2020...Scott Peters, who played OL in the NFL for 7 years before taking the Browns assistant job in 2020 (2021, 2022 and 2023). Four seasons as Bill Callahan's assistant didn't seem to impress the Browns coaches and management and I guess the thought of building on the continuity by hiring someone who worked under one of the best OL coaches, Bill Callahan, didn't mean much to the Browns coaches and management.

I guess all the talk about the Browns trying to maintain "continuity"..= BS.


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I wanted Cleveland to keep Scott, and am saying a prayer that we can lure Hank Fraley away from the Lions.


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j/c...

Starting to have my doubts JOK is ever able to play again.


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