DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Stefanski and Berry

1) He did not select Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson. Not did he draft Sam Darnold. All of them are in the playoffs.
Unless I missed something, Mayfield was in the playoffs too.

When we talk about Mayfield's ability to get to and win a Super Bowl, posters here continue to point out players that haven't achieved that goal either. Allen, Jackson, Darnold, Cousins, Herbert, Murray, Love, Tua, Lawrence, and Prescott have all failed to make it to a Super Bowl thus far in their careers. Burrow and Hurts made it to the big game but failed to win it. 12 players (some with more time) have failed to meet the standard that supposedly was set for Mayfield. Should they all be discounted for their failures too? Another question is: what kind of supporting cast did Mayfield possess compared to these other QB's? Did Mayfield have a top 10 defense when he played? How about the best receiving tandem in the NFL? Pro Bowl TE at his disposal? What about a top 5 kicker or punter? I think that if you take some of those assets away from those players listed above, their results would be greatly different.

This is not a Mayfield post as much as it is a point of unrealistic expectations. True that Mayfield never took the Browns to a Super Bowl but there are 10 players listed here that are considered the cream of the crop that haven't achieved that goal either. They've all had 5-years plus to achieve that goal, when do they become labeled as failures? I mean really now, I read posts about getting Cousins and/or Darnold. Darnold just played in his first ever playoff game. Cousins has been in the league 13 years and still hasn't made it to the glory land. Are we lowering our standards now? Keep in mind, when the Browns made the big move and went out got Watson, he had zero Super Bowl appearances, and that streak continues.

I just wonder, who's out there to meet the standards that were so prevalent when the Browns ran Mayfield out of town. We'll see who Berry decides is that new shiny toy soon - I don't have much faith in him after watching what he's done at QB these last 5-years.

Look, we all know a huge mistake was made. We love our Browns and it's difficult to see us in this mess, but we've said enough about it. The situation makes us all sick including me. Some of us have tried to come up with solutions, who we should draft who we should sign, trade for etc. Maybe there's an out for us with DW's re-injury. I was told a long time ago when a problem arose at work instead of continuing to complain about it lets concentrate and put our energy into the solution. I was 20 at the time and learned. It's okay to bitch and moan about it but there comes a point that should end and move on. Just my .02.

There are over 10k comedians out of work and you're here trying to be funny.

Well that settles it... he's the Funny Bunny.

Whenever a HC after a disastrous season recruit someone from within I’m little bit skeptical.

Rees was part of the coaching staff who ended 3-14.
Based on these results it’s hard to see how his knowledge helped us to the degree that he deserves a promotion?

Until we have seen some results maybe we should lower the expectations until the hype is justified.

They were also stupid enough to let Baker play hurt... And if, as you say, it was a management decision starting at the top, then none of them deserve their jobs. It does not take a genius to see that a guy with that big a character flaw isn't gonna make it after you pay him big bucks then guarantee it.

Baker wasn't a horrible QB.. Not at all. He was all heart.. and they kicked him to the curb like so much rubbish.

I was listening to the radio in the car.. The Fan I think.. Anyway, interesting point was brought up. Watson has been here for 3 years and still hasn't pick up on the KS Offense. Flacco did it in a few days.

I refuse to believe that Berry and Stefanski didn't see the problem.. I think Haslam stuck his nose in it.

Of course,JMO

The Athletics eye-opening report on the drama in Berea

Hmmm. As many of us suspected.

Stefanski’s double standards.
Berry in the driving seat.
Deshaun was already mentally broken before coming to Cleveland and the FO was afraid he couldn’t handle criticism in front of his teammates.

Quotes from players confirming what we thought all along.

Like Callahan didn't leave mainly to go work with his son?

Those clips are just "gifs". First invented as a way to comnpress images to make them easier to transmit on slow internet connections, soon they became a tool to create animations. Remember "flip-books"? Same principle. Anyway, a gif is just an image as far as your computer and the internet are concerned. I like gifs because they look like filmstrips... and make the Meme Police really angry. 😁


A tutoral:

Go to google, type in the image you are seeking, include "gif" in the search box. Once the query has finished, click "images" so that you'll have a full page of images to choose from.


Click on any small image from the page to open the box on the right with the full size image. Right click while hovering the image and click "copy image address".

Now go back to DT and in your reply box click "use full editor" at the bottom. Now, click on the thumbnail to insert "image tag" located at the top of your reply box. Once that box pops up, paste your image address (Ctrl + P is the keyboard shortcut for paste). Click "OK" and that line of code will appear in your reply box.

Always preview your reply to make sure the image displays properly. More and more, people who "own" the image are including code that prevents this from happening. There are a few workarounds, but we'll save that lesson for another day.

I may be reading this all wrong, but as I recall it was baker driving the bus to keep playing while hurt. Somewhere the comment was made about having an adult in the room....a comment aimed at Baker. Well, maybe the adult in the room would have said sorry Baker, you aren't going to play hurt.

It was a botched relationship with all parties having some culpability in the strained relationship.
.

I remember reading that as well.. But, bottom line, who's the boss here.. The QB or the Coach?

As for it being a botched relationship, sure.. You tell a kid that works his tale off, gives all he has that your kicking him to the curb for a guy with a tendency to be a sexual beast. Sure, that's gonna hurt. The Browns did this to themselves.

I understand the desire to get what looks like a great QB. I get it. But damn, make sure whats on the field meets up with what's between his ears. That didn't happen with this.

How do you check what's going to be between the ears in the future? You can see the past and talk through things, check with past references, but you can't actually see how someone will respond to a situation they've never been in before. To go from "beloved superstar" to being hated almost universally in the public sphere and that bleeding into his own locker room was apparently a traumatic experience, and people respond to "trauma" differently. Getting booed every time you go on the field keeps making that psychological "wound" worse.

It really was a rather unique circumstance. Throw in injuries on top of that and it's not a great recipe.

Looking back it's easy to see the warning signs. But expecting the "bad times" to pass didn't feel like a completely crazy idea at the time. Unfortunately, they kept getting worse. He never won enough to change the narrative.

I think some early wins could have changed a lot in the surrounding environment. It didn't work out that way.

Winners have their sins forgiven a lot more readily by fans than guys struggling on the field.

You can't predict what will go on between the ears of a player in the future. As such all you can do is go by how it worked in the very recent past. Then you act and invest accordingly.

This is why I mentioned in another thread about KS developing a rep (IMO) of not being good and managing/coaching his star talent. He should've been the one that coached Baker to what we're seeing today, and it sounds like he was still handling Watson with kid gloves this season. He's gotta know that players pick up on applying different standards to different QBs.

That seems plausible to me. Berry offering what he sees as a market value ceiling-based contract for Watson and then backing out of it when it got outside of his comfort zone, only to have Haslam pull rank and say "Nope, get him at all costs."

I don't know. I think different players respond to different things. Watson's biggest problem, at times, seemed to be that his confidence was shot. Winston's personality would seem to preclude that problem. Treating everyone the same all the time sounds great in a textbook. Individuals can react differently to the same things, though.

Unfortunately, there are times when there is no right answer and a player is just broken during a certain period. It doesn't mean he can never get better. Sometimes a player needs time and that's a commodity that doesn't really exist during the season. It's always on to the next opponent. Or they simply need a different perspective/change of scenery. A chance to step back and reflect.

When a coach is told to get it done with this particular player by the owner and nothing seems to get through to that player, what do you do? It's not that everyone wasn't trying to make it work. Watson, seemingly, just wasn't in a space where he could absorb anything. He was occupied with other worries that he couldn't shake. His body also had issues. Health concerns also have psychological impacts.

Articles consistently slanted in a certain way could have carried their own toll. I have no idea what effect being constantly bad mouthed by people that don't know me would have on me. I don't know what effect constantly seeing that negativity would have on coworkers. I doubt anyone would call it a healthy environment.

Sadly, it's the world we live in. I'm not sure what can be done about it.

Nobody knows if he’s a bad hire or not, future will tell, but I have still preferred some fresh blood to this organization.

Right now we don’t have any elite coaches.
We know what we get from Stefanski. Sometimes good but when the expectation raise he often fall flat to the ground.

I hope with all my heart that Rees is the new Canales, Coen or similar.
Young smart guys with modern ideas who knows how to care of their players so they feel appreciated and respected.

Something that we have been lacking the last four five seasons.

So you want coaches who kiss the players asses?

What off field issues is this guy talking about with Baker? The only time I can see that baker had an issue off field is when they introduced the whole watson thing. They Baker went a little nuts and I think, for good reason.

Originally Posted by Damanshot
I understand the desire to get what looks like a great QB. I get it. But damn, make sure whats on the field meets up with what's between his ears. That didn't happen with this.

How do you check what's going to be between the ears in the future?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Past behavior is a pretty damn good indication of what the future holds. I mean, employers do that all the time. Guy comes in for an interview, he's had drug problems in the past, it's very possible he'll do it again.

In this case, it's bad judgement that Watson exercised. Very safe bet he'll show bad judgement again.

The Browns got blinded by the nice shiny object and completely dropped the ball on Watson.

I’m not sure if you’re serious but the ability to make your players feel appreciated, respected together with accountability, and keeping a high standard has always been the long term best recipe to success.

You have any other ideas that’s better?

As I was looking at players I like in the draft in different rounds, players that really peaked my interest were Ty Warren and Cam Scattaboo.
I thinking that they might drop because they probably won't run that fast in the 40

What is it about these guys that I like?
I love how these guys are football players
We have too many guys who play football
These 2 are intense

Why is that so appealing?
The current Browns are too non-chalant in their approach to the game
Too laissez-faire in their approach to the game.
We don't play with the type of needed intensity
I want a team that punishes the other team (cleanly)

I think that attitude is a direct trickle down from stefanski
The team needs an attitude change

The part in Jester's post about the trickle down from Stefanski has some merit. I've always thought that teams tend to take on the personality of their head coach (not always, but often). This might be the case here. It's why "player's coaches" are often replace with disciplinarians when fired and visa versa. You don't need to be a yeller and screamer, but damn he seems so stoic so often. Add in not being critical of a star player (if true) and it wouldn't be surprising if players lost respect for him.

Dan Campbell comes to mind to bolster your point.

That being said, all kinds of personalities have won at HC. Tony Dungy won the big one and he was very accommodating to his players. I think the big thing though is being consistent. From what we've heard, it sounds like they elevated Watson and that's very damaging, especially since he played like garbage and acted like garbage.

What bad judgment? Break down the before (trade) and after for me. I can see the off the field before the trade. Where was that here? His on the field judgment also feels like it changed between there and here.

I think they accurately predicted the off the field "correction" of his aberrant behavior. Unfortunately, the on the field wasn't what had been there in the past.

What stayed the same? The problem was that the thing they wanted to change wasn't the only thing that did.

I don't know. It seems like you're simplifying something to a point where it's not really reflective of the actual situation. Or maybe you have a clearer idea of what you mean in using behavior and judgement that doesn't translate as cleanly for me. It's a little too buzzword pop psychology rather than meaningful evaluation imo. What past behavior continued here?

Personally, I think the problem is more in what changed than what continued. To me, it looks like the change was something that's not going to change back any time soon. His whole personality/"aura" changed. Some people can play the heel. Some can't handle being thrust into that role.

I think the human side of players and that effect on on field performance gets overlooked too often. But it's hard enough to be a financial guy, operational planning guy, and talent evaluating guy without adding psychotherapist to the rich, famous, and despised to the mix. ....I mean how many truly hated players are there? Let alone to that degree.

Hopefully, it really was a once in a lifetime thing that we don't have to worry about ever again. (I'm not saying that we shouldn't take away lessons.)

It seems a lot of people have what they think is a better idea. A more disciplined team. But that's how message boards work. Opinions often vary. The reality is these players get paid well to do their job. So they should do their jobs. Nobody should have to stroke your ego every time you catch the ball. Or every time you get a sack, rush for a first down or make a TD.

That's what you're getting paid to do. The appreciation shows up on your paycheck just like it does for the rest of society. Nothing wrong with an attaboy or good job once in a while. But if players need a counselor or mental help because they don't feel "appreciated" enough, that's outside the realm of an NFL HC. Kissing their ass isn't part of his job description.

I think the Lions could be in for considerable regression next year, particularly if they lose coordinators.

I think we at times underestimate their impact, and the way different coaching styles on a staff either fit together or don't. There is the X's and O's, and then there is the messaging/interaction. I wonder how much of the Watson getting coached one way while Winston was another had to do with Dorsey being the voice they wanted Watson to hear from to see if that worked, but, after seeing that it didn't, Stefanski decided to be more involved. I think Winston also wanted Kevin to be more involved. Allegedly, Winston wanted to play in the "Stefanski offense" when he signed.

For the elevating Watson part-When the owner decides he has to have the guy and gives him a quarter billion dollars guaranteed, he's kind of already elevated. When you're making about as much money as everyone else in the organization combined and there is effectively no way to cut you without paying you all of it, you kind of have the power. Hopefully the (re)injury changes that equation some.

An absolutely train wreck of post.
Not only does it scream 1975 it has also has all the ingredients of the opposite of what create a healthy work environment and in the end a winning culture.

I fully understand that many athletes expect their ass to be kissed for doing their jobs these days. It's just sad that many in the public such as yourself condone it. Not everything that you think has changed has changed for the better.

Most on this board are complaining that Stefanksi has been kissing watson's ass. Well we see how much that's helping watson, right? While you advocate he kiss more players asses.

Here is the fact of the matter. Different people react to different types of motivation. There is no one size fits all as you suggest. Some people are motivated by being pampered and having their ego stroked.

How many asses do you think Dan Campbell kisses? Some people are more motivated by strict discipline. Stop pretending that you have to treat NFL players the same way you would your dog. "Good job Fido! Good job!"

Daman..The entire management/coaching unit supported Haslam's desire sign Watson. So far there is no evidence that Stefanski, Berry or Depo had the courage to speak up and tell Haslam he was make a huge mistake.

They did make HISTORY: they are responsible for pulling off the worst trade in franchise history and possibly the worst trade in NFL history.

They all went along with the deal to sign Watson believing they would be viewed as the smartest management group in the NFL.

As a Browns fan of 65 yrs, I still ask, why the Browns..? in this case....EGO and INEXPERIENCE by those in charge.

Once again some seemed confused by thinking that it part of Stefanski's job to confront Haslam. He is in no way any part of the FO structure. The chain of command hasn't miraculously gone straight from HC to owner. Stefanski's boss is AB. AB's boss is Haslam.

You don't need courage to stand up to Jimmy when you agree with him. They all agreed that Baker was not good enough to take us to the Super Bowl and win it. You keep playing musical chairs on who to blame. 1st it was all Jimmy Fault, then you bamed Depo for everything, then it was AB's fault, them KEvin's, now it's Jimmy's again. You keep changing your mind more than a kid in a candy store.

Before trade: Women issues

After Trade: On the field poor decisions

Thus, he's weak and has a problem between the ears.

Funny, you want to protect him seemingly, but at the end of the day, he's not what he once was. My feeling is that he got the money., He's not hungry like he was coming out of college. Why should he be?

He talked a good game, Berry and the haslams and I suppose KS all bought in and never seemed to take into account his problems between his ears.

It's not about protecting Watson. It's about your argument not tying together. What do "women issues" have to do with "on the field poor decisions." He had the "women issues" without the "on the field issues". Now he has the reverse.

Judgement isn't some fixed ability that applies the same to everything all the time. People live, learn, and change. The change is not something that can easily be predicted due to no access to the internal workings of another person's mind.

They accounted for the problem between his ears that they knew about (they addressed it in the contract.) They didn't predict the problem that hadn't yet made itself manifest.

Plenty of players with "judgement"/"women" "issues" are still good at football.

Watson had been paid a big contract before we traded for him. He still played well. Plenty of players continue to play well after getting paid. He allegedly was still working hard.

I don't think the problem is the money. I think the problem is the environment. I don't mean in the locker room, though it likely has bled in there. I mean the media environment. The "fan" environment.

He'd probably love to keep playing ball, but the outside BS adds up. He does have enough money that the continued psychological damage might not be worth it.

I'd be glad for Watson to hang up the pads. I just think you overestimate what it was possible for the team's decision makers to know and underestimate the psychological complexity of the situation.

I won't attempt to totally discount what you are saying because I agree to an extent it holds merit. Yet at the same time I think you need to consider the investment you're willing to make verses the risk factor. I fully understand that there were other teams vying for his services but that didn't make those teams right either. Desperation can lead to illogical conclusions.

There are more than just calling it "women issues". It was an overwhelming number of women over a a period of time. Not a single issue with one or even two women. I believe that ups the ante in consideration to that aspect of it.

But that's not the only issue to consider here. For some reason watson didn't even play in his last season on the roster of the Texans. Somehow they couldn't work out a way for this fantastic QB to get on the field. Different reasons have been given for that. From they wouldn't play him due to the investigations into the claims he sexually abused those women to he sat out because he was demanding a trade because he was promised input in the selection of the team's next head coach, but the Texans did not fulfill that promise. Watson was upset about this and requested a trade from the team. So there's yet another thing the Browns needed to consider.

Then we have the fact that after the Browns initial offer watson informed the Browns he took them off the list of teams he was willing to be traded to. His contract gave him the right of refusal to be traded to any team he didn't want to play for. It seems hard for me to fathom that you wouldn't seriously take into consideration paying the ultimate price tag for a player who made it as plain as day he he didn't want to be here. A Brinks truck can change a player signing a contract but can it really change his motivation about wanting to pay there?

There were a culmination of factors combined that needed to be considered here, not just one. It appears that looking at the entire picture as a whole the Browns didn't give this the gravity they should have.

Decisions that people make is the point. In this case, while women and on field decisions don't seem to mesh, they do in the sense that they are both bad decisions.