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While you're the horse that keeps banging into the wall.

It was 2 seasons, not 1.

This may sound like I'm splitting hairs, but I don't feel like I am. He got picked up by Carolina, eventually got benched, then went to LA to stand-in for Stafford until he was healthy. Then Tampa Bay signed him in FA. He got a double-dose of humble pie over the course of that season, and I believe that, above everything else, has helped him get to where he is today.

For example
https://brobible.com/sports/article/baker-mayfield-patrick-mahomes-quarterback-coach/

It wasn't until we dumped him that he decided to start working with a QB coach in the off-season.

Compare that mentality to this... https://sports.yahoo.com/browns-bak...rowing-coach-in-offseason-195337203.html

3-14.
No FQB.
Probably one of the worst organization in the NFL the last 20 seasons.
Why is that?

You’re not in the position to tell others about how to run a successful NFL franchise.
Open your eyes. Results don’t lie.

And yet here you are, no more qualified than I doing that exact thing. Results don't lie. Making up a fable as to whom it as responsible for those results claiming as if you know the answer to that seems to be the issue here.

In football, results actually can lie. A perfect pass can bounce off a receiver's hands. Receivers fall down. A ball can take a crazy ricochet to a RB it wasn't intended for and go for a TD.

Players get hurt on the field. Players have mental health issues from stuff off the field.

You were what your record said you were, but the story doesn't end there.

Blind horses don't run. Trainers frequently cover sighted horses' eyes to calm them down to make them walk where they want them to instead of freaking out and running willy nilly.

Unfortunately, Haslam is not a horse. Hopefully the current group can still find a way to pull some wool over his eyes and make him manageable.

Carolina fired their HC four games into that season with Baker. They were in full-on tank mode. He wasn't going to sign up (re-sign) for more rides on a trainwreck. They both smartly moved on.

His first game with the Rams - on a couple days of prep - was legendary.

Tampa Bay picked him up for nothing. Since he's been a Buc, he's thrown more TD passes than anyone else in the league. Tampa Bay saw the talent...our guys didn't...AND they thought DeShone was the savior...and THAT is the problem.

Lamar had to learn how to throw an NFL football...Josh had to learn how to operate an NFL offense and throw the ball to his teammates and not into the ether...Sam had to be in the league for years until he showed the talent he showed in college.

Lamar and Josh were drafted by playoff-caliber teams and have only played for (1) Head Coach in their entire professional careers. Baker and Sam were drafted into dumpster fires. Baker's first HC was Hue Jackson coming into a team that had won (1) game in (2) years.

I don't doubt that Baker needed to do some growing up...he had no direction until...what...his 4th HC in (3) years. He got his team to the playoffs...and WON a playoff game...the FIRST year he played for someone other than a nut-job at HC. He was dismissed and not molded.

I am over the players in question in this debacle...have been for years. What I cannot get over is that the guys who completely missed on their own FQB also missed on a dud with more red flags than a flag football game and sold the farm to do so. They also went into a super-bowl-window season with DTR as the only other QB on the roster.

They have completely botched the most important decision in sports. They just finished a 3-14 season and have an old roster and no viable QB. As long as our team is a trainwreck/dumpster-fire and loses game after game after game...AND the guys who led us here are still here...this Baker/DeShone debate isn't going anywhere.

Great post. Trying to find something to argue with... nope... nothing there.

Tampa Bay signed him to a 1yr/$4M deal and had him compete with Kyle Trask for the job. I'm not sure what talent they saw. Deal looks more like a dice roll than an expectation of how he has done. 31 teams apparently didn't see more than 1yr/$4M talent in Baker at the time.

Watson didn't work out here. Other teams saw talent there also, though. The Browns weren't the only ones willing to make a big deal.

The defenses in the NFC South were awful this season. Baker benefited from being on the best team in a bad division.

A player has to allow himself to be molded.

...Took me a bit to come to the conclusion that you were talking about Watson rather than Kizer. I was confused for awhile. Bleh, the QB carousel has been rough.

You are spot on mate. No matter how some fans want to try to frame the narrative. A couple points that you mention that shouldn't be overlooked but i feel they always are.

1 the first game with the Rams ... Yes within 2 days of signing he played what was a Thursday night game i think. National press didnt think he could possibly start and yet he played and had a great game.

2 hard to under play that the people in charge of the team went into a season with DTR as THE backup .... Just unbelievable

Going to really upset The Rish with that talk.

Actually, it is as bad as it looks IMO.

The turnover study has its merits, but the Browns have an aging O-line, no true #1 WR, an oft injured overpaid TE, a weak backfield with more questions than answers about Chubb's future, and no QB. That's only the offense and doesn't include the defense or special teams that have questions a plenty.

The Browns have a HC and GM that have a 5-year losing record overall and for the first time after 3-years, we have a 1st round draft pick and are back in our normal drafting position of picking in the top 5.

Finding a QB is certainly a priority but comparing their pursuit and results to Washington who not only had a new head coach but brought in an OC who (with the HC's blessing) tailored the offense to the rookie's skill set sets Cleveland and Washington apart. Stefanski hasn't done that in 5 years, what makes you think he will now? You might say that he tried that with Watson by getting Dorsey, yet the results say something totally different.

The Browns have many more problems to address besides just turnovers.

This team could just as easily be a wildcard team again next season as it was in 2023. So, you said this offense is just terrible. Was it really terrible when Jamies Winston was under center? If Jamies did not throw so many picks he showed that a QB can thrive in Stefanski's system. Flacco also proved that in 2023. Stefanski has taken this team to the playoffs with Baker and Flacco. If they can find the right bridge QB this team can be right back into the playoffs. John Dorsey's decision to draft Baker over Josh Allen has been the decision that has set this franchise back. Berry and Stefanski tried to right that wrong when they traded for Deshaun and it did not work out. They swung and missed. Hopefully next time they get it right.

So funny that in hindsight, there's so much talk on this forum about Dorsey screwing up by drafting Mayfield instead of Allen. Yet, in 2018, a survey was conducted on this forum as to who the forum fans wished for as the "#1 Pick Wish" that disputes that claim. Interesting enough, not a single person who participated noted Josh Allen as their wish at #1. In fact, out of 67 votes, no one picked Allen as the #1 pick and only 1 mention of Allen at pick #4. The top 2 forum picks, Darnold and Rosen: Darnold just finished his first season in 7 years as the starter in all games for a team and Rosen only lasted 3 years in the NFL.

2018 PreDraft Survey

People blast Dorsey on this forum for taking Mayfield, imagine if Dorsey had leaned toward the forums top 2 picks and still yet, nobody wanted Dorsey to select Allen at #1! Interesting history considering what I'm reading now on this forum.

PSA:

It is a GM tasked with getting the decision right and not armchair internet warriors. I wanted Sam Darnold. But I also have a 50+ hour a week other job that does not allow for me to watch endless game film and interview candidates. Mayfield was not a good 1st overall draft pick. He had immaturity issues that ultimately ended his tenure with the Browns. He found a nice spot for him now. In the weakest division in the NFL where he can be successful. He was not going to be successful in the AFC North. Joe Burrow and Lamar Jackson are both far superior players to Baker. Josh Allen was the only QB in that draft class that can and does compete with Burrow and Jackson.

I do not see a QB in this draft class that can either, but the upside of Jalen Milroe can possibly get to that level if used properly. I am predicting that at the combine he will run in the 4.3 range at 220+ pounds. He does have a rocket for an arm. His upside at QB is the only one I see that could get the Browns to an elite level. The curious QB is the Ohio State QB. He has proven he can execute at a high level with superior talent. Gets the ball out quickly to the right read. Can he elevate equal or lesser talent like he did superior talent? Those are the only two QB I can really get behind this year.

People forget how erratic Josh Allen was his first two years in the league. I doubt he - or anyone for that matter - could survive with Hue Jackson as their first HC on a team that had won (1) game in (2) years. Followed by Gregggg and Freddie. Allen WAS molded...he had continuity in his HC...his team was in the playoffs the year before they drafted him...they were stable BEFORE he got there.

This notion that Allen would have had similar success in our dumpster fire is quite the reach. How's this one for a reach: Had the Ravens or Bills drafted Baker they would have won a super bowl since 2018.

Yeah, I made the same point about how Allen would have fared here with all of our issues.

If you take a X/Y axis and vector their performances over the years, the two intersect with Allen starting out below Baker and then catching up and surpassing Baker.

j/c…

Not much of a surprise.

Yeah, I think many here thought he'd takeover the play-calling.

I didn't want Hue Jackson near any rookie QB. ...I didn't want Hue in the building with any QB.

Edit:
Here's what I actually wrote in that thread:

"I still don't know who I want. All the QBs have warts.

I like Lamar Jackson, but have no faith in us using him right. I like Chubb, but don't think he's as dynamic as Myles. He still might be the best player in the draft.

Gun to my head I'm saying Chubb 1, Jackson 4. Don't feel great about it, though. Mainly that order b/c I've heard more buzz for Chubb going before 4."

The DE/Edge Chubb that went 5th.

That was the perfect example of why every day fans aren't qualified to be NFL GM's. It's why we aren't the experts we often times think of ourselves as. It shows that we don't have a scouting staff, an analytics department and all of the resources nor access to all the film to break down and analyze players like the NFL does. It shows why we aren't getting paid the big bucks to do those jobs.

Other than that I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Do you think GM's that make millions should arrive at the same conclusion a bunch of fans on a message board come to?

Amazing. I obviously didn’t participate but I was a Baker guy in that draft. I really didn’t want Darnold. My thinking was that Allen was going to be what Darnold was before this year. Kind of a Tim Couch, just not quite good enough. That’s why I don’t make the big bucks I guess.

I will say this as an aside… QB’s that come to Cleveland need to be very positive and resilient! It’s harder here than just about anywhere IMO. And this franchise and fan base has less patience or forgiveness than anywhere else I can think of. I live in the NYC area and I don’t think the Giants or Jets and their fans are nearly so. So in terms of head-set, Baker was a smart pick. He’s a populist who knows how to rally his troops and he’s tough. A bit thin skinned, which was a real problem at times but got better until the FO crapped the bed. The team just didn’t seem to know how to deal with him. Allen in hindsight fits that bill as well. Darnold and Rosen don’t. The point being, who ever ends up here needs to be mentally tough and relentlessly positive. We ALWAYS go thru extended tough times in Cleveland. We need a general who can handle that and stay buoyant and focused and not “check out” or crumble and start looking for his exits. This is of course on top of, you know, having all the actual good QB traits.

I agree. I seriously doubt Berry's ability to evaluate players. He does pretty good with defensive backfield players, but after that, just look at the draft picks.

It's pretty nauseating.

I'd rather bump Berry to team President or something....he does bring value to a franchise, then get a draft consultant or just let Stefanski and his staff pick the players.

The oline is aging but they looked significantly better when Winston was in there.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that we were using the Dorsey/Watson spread offense with those blocking schemes for the whole year, which is NOT this oline's preference.

Just think, we could have a coach draft us Cole Strange and N'Keal Harry with his first round picks (a couple of Belichick's recent selections.)

Being a good coach doesn't make you a great drafter. I think GMs can get in trouble when they let coaches (or owners) have undue influence on the picking.

I don't know that draft consultants necessarily work either. How did Mike Mayock do as a GM?

An NFL HC has so many other duties I don't see how a team could rely on him to make the draft picks. There's an entire scouting and analytic department that work on conjunction and full time to work with a GM in relations to drafting and FA signing. I certainly don't believe we have the right GM but transferring that responsibility onto your HC certainly isn't the answer.

I wish they would get someone else to be the "draft expert." Berry is pretty good at determining value and managing the cap. I just don' think he has a scout's eye for talent.

I'm not so sure about the "value" part. As for my reasoning..... That whole 230 million dollars guaranteed contract and 3 first round draft picks thing would seem to indicate otherwise. In situations where the stakes were much lower I think he's done pretty well.

Getting in bidding wars when your owner is willing to spend can have downsides.

That's one of the hard parts of free agency. You don't really know how someone is going to do in your program until they are there. They may be a key part of one team's puzzle, but not necessarily yours. Vets are a lot pricier than rookies.

Get Costner. Draft Day 2.0

There's no debating the Watson scenario was an unmitigated disaster. I just have no idea how much of that guarantee and dollar amount was initiated by him vs Haslam.

Seriously… how far back did that trade kill us?? Texans flip their team with a lot of draft capital from us

I think it wads 100% haslam…. And I get it… if Walton returned to form then it would have been worth it…. Unfortunately, he hasn’t… and most likely won’t…

I see it as a positive the Browns are finally interested in hiring a designated QB coach...

And this is certainly one such example.


And that's also true. But there are also critical parts of this puzzle I think this FO underestimated or simply neglected to give the full weight it deserved. The numbers and the film alone certainly didn't tell but a fraction of the story.

First there were all of the sexual allegations that everyone knew would be litigated moving forward. Quite a distraction for not only watson but the team as well. Yet that's not the only factor to consider.

Secondly there's the fact that watson plainly stated that he refused to be traded to Cleveland after they made him their initial offer as per the no trade clause in his contract. He in no way wanted to come to Cleveland to play. Once thy made him that crazy offer the money outweighed where he wanted to play. The fact a player doesn't want to play here is a huge part of the puzzle.

Then there's the fact for some reason he didn't even play in his last season in Houston. Several rumors floated around as to why and I'm not sure anyone knows the actual truth of the matter. But from watson he said the team told him he would have input on the HC'ing hire and they didn't hire the person he wanted. For me that's a huge red flag.

I believe this FO and owner were so enamored by the film they didn't give enough weight to what wasn't on film.

How many times have we seen an injured player Not be able to reach full potential the year after a pretty severe injury or surgery? Chubb comes to mind right away. So I don't look at what happened to Baker in Carolina as anything more than a blip on the screen. He did a little better on the west coast.. Not much but a little.

But fully recovered from Surgery, he went to Tampa and did a fine job. Seemed to have gotten better even... Last year, he was pretty damn good I'd say. Set some records. Lit it up well. And they love him in Tampa. But to be fair, they were not HAPPY at all at the prospect of getting him at first. Fans didn't want him at all at first. Now, they love him.

The same thing could have happened with Watson here, but it didn't... His wallet got fat and it's almost like he forgot how to play the game. I hate saying I told everyone so, but I did..... Sorry, Not sorry!

I don't think the problem was that they didn't put enough weight on the not on film stuff. I think they took it seriously and had plans for it, but they failed to account for his response to the pervasive surrounding environment or they expected the environment to steadily improve.

They had actions required of him to try to avoid the masseuse scandal related problems. They seemed to try to do everything in their power to keep him happy to avoid the player/decision maker discord problem.

They may have failed to anticipate the in locker room reaction to Watson and his baggage. But, Watson was generally a well thought of teammate in Houston.

The problem with the not on film stuff is that it can't readily be quantified.

It was a unique situation. There's no standard procedure for dealing with it. It's hard to imagine a standard process that would account for all the circumstances.