Sadly many have no idea why Ukraine wants assurances included in the deal. It could be that trump doesn't know either. This is why Zelenskyy wants such assurances. As Zelenskyy pointed out to J.D. Vance and trump, Russia has broken agreements with Ukraine more than once. For those who have no idea what he meant, here's the proof of what Zelenskyy is saying.
This is from a 2019 article explaining the Budapest Memorandum. It's a very long article so I'm only including the portions of what Russia, The United states and Britain agreed to............
A nuclear-armed state breaks up
In the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the United States, Russia, and Britain committed “to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine” and “to refrain from the threat or use of force” against the country. Those assurances played a key role in persuading the Ukrainian government in Kyiv to give up what amounted to the world’s third largest nuclear arsenal, consisting of some 1,900 strategic nuclear warheads.
When the USSR broke up in late 1991, there were nuclear weapons scattered in the resulting post-Soviet states. The George H. W. Bush administration attached highest priority to ensuring this would not lead to an increase in the number of nuclear weapons states. Moreover, as it watched Yugoslavia break apart violently, the Bush administration worried that the Soviet collapse might also turn violent, raising the prospect of conflict among nuclear-armed states. Ensuring no increase in the number of nuclear weapons states meant that, in practice, only Russia would retain nuclear arms. The Clinton administration pursued the same goal. With the prospect of extending the Non-Proliferation Treaty indefinitely looming, an alternative course that allowed other post-Soviet states to keep nuclear weapons would have set a bad precedent.
Eliminating the strategic nuclear warheads, intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs), and strategic bombers in Ukraine was a big deal for Washington. The ICBMs and bombers carried warheads of monstrous size — all designed, built, and deployed to attack America. The warheads atop the SS-19 and SS-24 ICBMs in Ukraine had explosive yields of 400-550 kilotons each — that is, 27 to 37 times the size of the atomic bomb that devastated Hiroshima. The 1,900 strategic nuclear warheads — more than six times the number of nuclear warheads that China currently possesses — could have destroyed every U.S. city with a population of more than 50,000 three times over, with warheads left to spare. Assurances for Ukraine
Before agreeing to give up this nuclear arsenal, Kyiv sought three assurances. First, it wanted compensation for the value of the highly-enriched uranium in the nuclear warheads, which could be blended down for use as fuel for nuclear reactors. Russia agreed to provide that.
Second, eliminating ICBMs, ICBM silos, and bombers did not come cheaply. With its economy rapidly contracting, the Ukrainian government could not afford the costs. The United States agreed to cover those costs with Nunn-Lugar Cooperative Threat Reduction assistance.
Third, Ukraine wanted guarantees or assurances of its security once it got rid of the nuclear arms. The Budapest Memorandum provided security assurances.
Unfortunately, Russia has broken virtually all the commitments it undertook in that document. It used military force to seize, and then illegally annex, Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula in early 2014. Russian and Russian proxy forces have waged war for more than five years in the eastern Ukrainian region of Donbas, claiming more than 13,000 lives and driving some two million people from their homes.
Some have argued that, since the United States did not invade Ukraine, it abided by its Budapest Memorandum commitments. True, in a narrow sense. However, when negotiating the security assurances, U.S. officials told their Ukrainian counterparts that, were Russia to violate them, the United States would take a strong interest and respond.
Washington did not promise unlimited support. The Budapest Memorandum contains security “assurances,” not “guarantees.” Guarantees would have implied a commitment of American military force, which NATO members have. U.S. officials made clear that was not on offer. Hence, assurances.
Beyond that, U.S. and Ukrainian officials did not discuss in detail how Washington might respond in the event of a Russian violation. That owed in part to then-Russian President Boris Yeltsin. He had his flaws, but he insisted that there be no revision of the boundaries separating the states that emerged from the Soviet collapse. Yeltsin respected Ukraine’s independence and territorial integrity. Vladimir Putin does not.
U.S. officials did assure their Ukrainian counterparts, however, that there would be a response. The United States should continue to provide reform and military assistance to Ukraine. It should continue sanctions on Russia. It should continue to demand that Moscow end its aggression against Ukraine. And it should continue to urge its European partners to assist Kyiv and keep the sanctions pressure on the Kremlin.
Washington should do this, because it said it would act if Russia violated the Budapest Memorandum. That was part of the price it paid in return for a drastic reduction in the nuclear threat to America. The United States should keep its word.
All Z had to do was sign the minerals deal and save his country from further death and destruction. A MAJOR US investment in Ukraine minerals would be an enormous security "force" for Ukraine against Russia...not to mention Europe's (then) involvement there. Russia isn't going to attack non-offensive American interests in Ukraine.
Ukraine has/had NO CHANCE to win this war...it can be prolonged, but only with US $$$. Even then, Ukraine isn't getting back the ground lost in this war...that was never an option. So what is Z's end game here? Keep fighting - with our $$$ - and eventually outlast Putin? That's ridiculous. Just what is the goal in Z's mind?
Trump handed him an 'out' and a way to create financial opportunity to re-build his country...and he clearly and publicly rejected that idea and demanded something he is in no position to demand. Not to mention that Z's demand (NATO/security guarantees) would only further incentivize Putin to continue on / increase the offensive.
I challenge responders to this post to stick with the issue and not degrade discussion into further insults. How does a peace deal get done?
But I do declare dear poster, such outrageous BS and false flag talking points straight out of Russia have no place in serious talks about what the strongest democracy on earth should do in this situation. Trump should stfu and follow what EVERY POTUS since the end of WW2 has done and keep Russia in its place. Putin attacked them after they surrendered their nukes at our request. It matters not how Trump feelz, it only matters that the USA defends democracy at home and abroad. Damn the costs. They gave up their nukes and we had an agreement to protect them. Shame on you for not knowing or acknowledging that. And if by chance this truth bomb does offend you in the slightest of ways, feel free to pout like Putin and Trump.
Meanwhile, you don’t want to see the hell that will be unleashed in your back yard if Trump abandons Ukraine to Putin. If you thought the BLM protests were bad, you ain’t seen nothing yet. 70% of America and 90% of the world disagrees. So take your Rusky talking points, roll em up and smoke em. I absolutely don’t want to see, hear, or smell them. But do feel free to carry Putin’s water with a sign to protest the protests when they come to a street near you. That will keep your life interesting for quite a while I’d guess.
Anjd BTW taking their mineral for money we freely gave just because they are vulnerable IS EXTORTION. Trump is extorting Ukraine and once again the right is fine with it. Do you people even own mirrors? Because I can’t fathom how you look at yourselves in them.
I'm going to look, but in case you have it, can you post up a good summary of this "minerals for protection" deal that was passed on?
Yeah bro, Trump is trying to extort them out of $500 Billion in minerals that are needed to make batteries and electronics as “compensation” for monies we freely GAVE them under Biden. No strings attached, you know, like a true super power that defends democracy, not like a boot licking Putin lap-dog. And as far as I can see, he wants that done BEFORE he will even discuss the future and further protections from Putin. Thug-ish Putin-esque behavior from our POTUS and VP. Damned disgraceful IMHO.
You’ve completely lost your mind if you believe that rubbish. But I do like how you suddenly love CNN. But even their headline reads 52% back Ukraine. Not your happy place in Trump’s butt nor Russia, they back Z. This is yet another X-hole post.
Yeah bro, Trump is trying to extort them out of $500 Billion in minerals that are needed to make batteries and electronics as “compensation” for monies we freely GAVE them under Biden. No strings attached, you know, like a true super power that defends democracy, not like a boot licking Putin lap-dog. And as far as I can see, he wants that done BEFORE he will even discuss the future and further protections from Putin. Thug-ish Putin-esque behavior from our POTUS and VP. Damned disgraceful IMHO.
so i have not verified ... I've heard twice that Ukraine initiated the offer on mineral rights. They did it with the belief that much of those minerals are under or close to the land Russia occupies ... And as yet they are not certain to be economically viable to extract.
What was offered and what Trump note wants might be miles apart , but interesting if this can be verified
The more things change the more they stay the same.
All Z had to do was sign the minerals deal and save his country from further death and destruction. A MAJOR US investment in Ukraine minerals would be an enormous security "force" for Ukraine against Russia...not to mention Europe's (then) involvement there. Russia isn't going to attack non-offensive American interests in Ukraine.
Ukraine has/had NO CHANCE to win this war...it can be prolonged, but only with US $$$. Even then, Ukraine isn't getting back the ground lost in this war...that was never an option. So what is Z's end game here? Keep fighting - with our $$$ - and eventually outlast Putin? That's ridiculous. Just what is the goal in Z's mind?
Trump handed him an 'out' and a way to create financial opportunity to re-build his country...and he clearly and publicly rejected that idea and demanded something he is in no position to demand. Not to mention that Z's demand (NATO/security guarantees) would only further incentivize Putin to continue on / increase the offensive.
I challenge responders to this post to stick with the issue and not degrade discussion into further insults. How does a peace deal get done?
Sheesh, those are Putins and right wing media talking points.
The "deal" had only one aspect, Ukraine giving up mineral rights, there was nothing in return (NATO/Security guarantees). That is the problem, the Trump regime was not willing to provide anything ensuring that Ukraine would be supported in its war against Russia. A great deal for the US, but totally stinks for Ukraine.
They said Ukraine would not last 3 years ago. Russia has been losing the headcount battle at greater than 10:1, perhaps as much as 20:1.
It was not an "out" is was a giveaway that could only be invoked if Ukraine existed. If Russia wins, the deal is probably off. Russia has to contemplate its future as well, and can easily withdraw to its own territory given its ass kicking so far.
Russia can stop fighting and leave. That is how a deal could work.
I don't know man. We are stuck in a war that sits at stalemate. I say us stuck in the war because we are the ones largely funding things for Ukraine. I am not in favor of just tossing billion after billion into an endless hole.
I don't like Putin and Russia, but the reality of the matter is that Russia is the one with the ability to lob nukes around the globe. We should be talking to Russia. At least we are. Under President Biden I don't think we ever talked. To me, that just wasn't responsible. There is truth in the saying about keeping your enemies close.
I am not saying we just bow to Putin, but we sure as hell need to be working to resolve this thing as fast as possible.
But you want to send troops into Gaza?
I don't really want to, but I also think that would at least be useful. Or could be useful.
First, no, I don't want to get in to a land war with the Russians. That only ends up one way, and NOBOBY wins that.
In Gaza, I see it more as a deterrent and does give us a better ability to bump off some of the maggots crawling under the the rocks if they want to crawl out.
It also sends a message to Iran that the Big Dog is now on the porch next door. Let's face it, Iran is from where most of the terrorist money comes. We need to send a strong message that we are there and are there to help keep the peace, or if need be become a quick strike option in the area.
Iran is the biggest global threat at the moment. We need to be there with the ability to grow into a full sized base if needed. If they finally get a bomb, it won't take long for them to ignite the damn thing.
Better to stop that before it happens. If that happens, Pandora is out of the box.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
The point of security guarantees in ukraine is 1000% a deterrent. It's the same situation you claim as in Gaza, the difference being the rest of the world is against the USA doing anything in Gaza and most of TRoTW wants to see a security guarantee in Ukraine. For more than a week Britain and France has stated they would put boots on the ground in ukraine as that guarantee, with support frow the USA ... Not with US boots on the ground, just as a guarantee of support.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Here’s what you and Willie are missing: We have spent TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS since Putin came into power countering Russia’s military and ensuring that we stay ahead of them.
Now, we actually have a chance to pummel them. Willie made the point that Ukraine can’t win this war. I don’t think that’s true. But even so, guess what…neither can Russia. I’ve made the point over and over again that they have continually thrown the living room furniture in their fireplace to keep the fire going.
They have lost a TON of intellectual capacity, capability, and just people in general (twice what we lost in WW2). They can’t sustain this much longer and they are even less transparent about how bad they are feeling the economic affects.
It will take them a long arse time just to get back to where they were pre-war. Now is the time to up the pressure, not let up. If people complain about costs, fine. Package loans. Package deals. Redistribute defense spending to keep it up. Whatever. But it’s essential to keep helping them kick Putin’s butt.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
Let's face it.. Ukraine is quickly running out of bodies to fight against Russia.
They already lowered the recruitment age to 25 in April of 2024. Now, they are targeting 18-to 24-year-old men who were previously exempt. (18-24 is the smallest age demographic with around 1.1 million m/f) https://www.ft.com/content/f24ee6a1-cf3b-477b-b773-e5af4cf94eaf
If this war continues, Ukraine will belong to Russia by the end of 2026 as Ukraine will likely run out of able bodies.
I also want to just posit one thing to the thread: everyone knows how this war started. Everyone objectively knows who the aggressor was and knows who committed the human rights atrocities.
Now, tell me, have you ever seen Trump remotely address Putin’s in the same manner he addressed Zelensky - with or without Putin actually being in the room.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
At this point I would withdraw all aid from Ukraine if it hasn't been done already.
If Zelensky wants to continue this war then let him, but it should be without our money. Anyone that supports the war in Ukraine should go to the front lines if they have that much invested.
Well if we help them win, the incel right can go help repopulate… I’ve never seen such shameful excuses for men. Peen, Putin wants you to feel afraid to take him on. BUT PEEN he knows pushing his red button is the final act, period. He does that he is dead, out of power, no coming back. Putin could have nuked us ten times by now if he was truly going to… He just wants the sheeple to be afraid. And that’s not directed at you, that’s how he and Trump view common men.
Back in the 80s the USSR would sail around behind our fleets to pick up our garbage we threw overboard to look for tech and documents. We used to practice nuke drills onboard. They did it like it was real when they were breaking in a new crew. My job was to sweep bodies off the flight deck dressed in an impermeable waxed suit. They knew the suits were BS then, but they also knew nobody was going to survive the fallout anyway. Putin is a dictator with imperial dreams, destroying the world is not in those dreams, I guarantee you that. Is it impossible, no. But it’s highly-highly-highly unlikely, because he would be ending himself.
I would rather risk that than allow him to turn toward Europe, or possibly hit here. I hope you realize how weak we are at the moment thanks to Elon and Trump taking a wrecking ball to our institutions. Any sane person would think Trump just might be in Putin’s pocket. If you want to avoid all out war, step up, speak up, and stop daddy. Because we ARE the deterrent that stops Russian aggression, period.
At this point I would withdraw all aid from Ukraine if it hasn't been done already.
If Zelensky wants to continue this war then let him, but it should be without our money. Anyone that supports the war in Ukraine should go to the front lines if they have that much invested.
And this is why you are not a 4 star general, or a diplomat. You know nothing about it. And if I was young and in the shape of my youth, I would have no issue going to help Ukraine. Have you seen the footage of the poor Russians being sent in as cannon fodder? With our tech, that war ends in no time flat. With our troops, there is no competition. Sure we would have losses, but nothing like Russia would have. How many y times have our boys hammered Putin’s troops in the middle east and elsewhere, and we tried to be friendly about it. Extract yourself from the Trumpian bubble for a minute or two a day and look at the rest of the world.
Late tonight, Trump “paused” all aid to Ukraine. Paused is the word used by his MAGA mouth pieces. Stopped is what it is… We’re leaving them for Putin. Wth MAGA? Are you even American any more?
I agree we have spent trillions plus on a war against Putin. I don't see how that justifies continuing to do so, at least in this situation. Zelenskyy is a loser in a loser position.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Let's face it.. Ukraine is quickly running out of bodies to fight against Russia.
They already lowered the recruitment age to 25 in April of 2024. Now, they are targeting 18-to 24-year-old men who were previously exempt. (18-24 is the smallest age demographic with around 1.1 million m/f) https://www.ft.com/content/f24ee6a1-cf3b-477b-b773-e5af4cf94eaf
If this war continues, Ukraine will belong to Russia by the end of 2026 as Ukraine will likely run out of able bodies.
Russia has been doing this type of thing for at least the last year.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
At this point I would withdraw all aid from Ukraine if it hasn't been done already.
If Zelensky wants to continue this war then let him, but it should be without our money. Anyone that supports the war in Ukraine should go to the front lines if they have that much invested.
If Putin were in here, he'd give you a smile and a pat on the head.
So you've got that going for you.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Let's face it.. Ukraine is quickly running out of bodies to fight against Russia.
They already lowered the recruitment age to 25 in April of 2024. Now, they are targeting 18-to 24-year-old men who were previously exempt. (18-24 is the smallest age demographic with around 1.1 million m/f) https://www.ft.com/content/f24ee6a1-cf3b-477b-b773-e5af4cf94eaf
If this war continues, Ukraine will belong to Russia by the end of 2026 as Ukraine will likely run out of able bodies.
They also said that before Ukraine launched an offensive into Russia (which I believe they still hold despite Russia trying to push back).
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Europe wouldn't pull its head out of its butt until the US swapped sides over to Russia, NKorea, etc.
Tragic is the perfect word.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
On the one hand the whole of the west should have done more. On the other hand Europe has spent more supporting Uktlraine than the USA. That's despite the GDP of EU being about half that of the USA.
But you know Trumptards parroting Putin Propaganda are going to Trumptard.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I agree we have spent trillions plus on a war against Putin. I don't see how that justifies continuing to do so, at least in this situation. Zelenskyy is a loser in a loser position.
Trump and your position will do nothing but embolden Putin to expand his aggression further into eastern Europe. What we are paying now is a drop in the bucket compared to what it will cost us in the long run if we don't help Ukraine weaken Russia now and show Putin just what the cost of his aggressiveness will cost him. If history has taught you nothing it should have at least taught you what appeasing dictators leads to.
Your position is we should save a fraction of what it will cost us later. That math doesn't add up.
In effect trump is rewarding Putin for his invasion of Ukraine. You seem to support that.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
On the one hand the whole of the west should have done more. On the other hand Europe has spent more supporting Uktlraine than the USA. That's despite the GDP of EU being about half that of the USA.
But you know Trumptards parroting Putin Propaganda are going to Trumptard.
That's what useful idiots call the EU doing nothing. Only in trumplandia.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Just so we are staying factual , the usa has appropriated a hundred an eighty two billion to Ukraine so far and Ukraine has received maybe a hundred an eighteen billion.
Cost of the iraq war has been estimated as highs three trillion.
Last edited by mgh888; 03/04/2512:43 PM.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I agree we have spent trillions plus on a war against Putin. I don't see how that justifies continuing to do so, at least in this situation. Zelenskyy is a loser in a loser position.
How in hell could you have gotten that from what I said?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
I agree we have spent trillions plus on a war against Putin. I don't see how that justifies continuing to do so, at least in this situation. Zelenskyy is a loser in a loser position.
How in hell could you have gotten that from what I said?
Fox News talking points just loaded up.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
How are republicans sitting back and letting this happen? I guess they think its a great thing. Lets help Russia kill Ukrainians! because Russia agreed to all of Russia's terms! And Ukraine did not.
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