DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Liberation Day

Futile to ask posters to stick to the one topic - but all I want is for anyone who thinks this is a good economic strategy to post here and defend these tariffs by Trump. Anyone who thinks they are not going to work, likewise post your thoughts. Only history will be the judge. For me it would be great to see a lot of the Trump supporters make a simple commitment of supporting this ... and yes, that's becuase in my opinion, this thread will be something to revive later when the policy fails. Spectacularaly.

I've posted previously the analysis of the price of washing machines as a result of tariffs from Trump1. 42% price rise. US jobs created - at a cost of in excess of $800,000.00 per job. Tariffs don't work.

I see prices escalating, other nations recipricating. Global economic forecasts down. Average Joe Shmoe in the USA (and RoTW) paying higher prices.

I wonder whether what Trump has done will prmpt countries like Tiawan who control the world's critical supply of computer chips are [1] more likely to be under threat from Chinese aggression after USA's soft approach to Russian aggression in Ukraine [2] As a result of antagonistic Tariffs. I wonder if other countries that sell the USA critical minerals and materials will restrict them to the USA as leverage (I know I would).

Lastly because I have a low opinion of Trump and think he's a narcist child that wants to be a King - I wonder if all/many of the countries reciprocate (which they will) whether Trump will try to raise the tariffs again - making everything that much worse.

That's my 2 cents. What do you think?

What are trumps qualifications and understanding of global economics. NONE. There is no one outside of trumps circle that thinks this makes any sense. literally no one in the world outside of trumps circle. Show me one example of a respected economist or leader that thinks this is good for anyone. I am pretty sure they do not exist.

What in the hell does that mean. Geez, that's odd.,


As for the subject, What are we being liberated from?

Answer:

Our hard earned dollars...

trump has bankrupt 3 casinos. Think about that! Cassinos are money making machines. He has bankrupt 3 of them. He probably made lots of money personally in the process. I also think there is major stock trading going on in his family and circle, that is based on what he is going to do, and they all know about it ahead of time so THEY can make money and HE can make money based on stock trading with inside information at the highest level. trump wins everyone else in the world loses because trump only cares about trump.

Just commemorating another Lord of the Flies thread.

So you are for the tariffs or think they will fail? I can't tell from that clip or comment!!

Dow down 1246 points ...

That'd make it the 8th biggest drop in a day - ever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_daily_changes_in_the_Dow_Jones_Industrial_Average

Of course, there's lots of time left for a rally.

Worse than the worst case scenario...

And it could get worse-one of trumps waterboys last night said that they were hoping that small countries like Vietnam would issue reciprocal tariffs quickly so that we could crush them-they also said that if the large trading partners like China or the EU would reciprocate then we would raise our tariffs even more-and then the real crap show would begin

Just an example of what a "well made plan" this was..............

President Trump’s sweeping tariffs announced today stretched across the globe, including the remote Heard and McDonald Islands, which are populated by zero humans but lots of seals and penguins.
Despite having no apparent exports or imports, the sub-Antarctic islands, which are an external territory of Australia, will be subject to a 10% tariff, according to a document the White House provided during Trump’s tariff announcement today.

Sacks of hair have more smarts.

Here are my points.

I question the methodology and number crunching behind that chart and would like to know more. It has been a long standing question of mine. And I will say that the simple graphic leads me to believe that the numbers could have been made up, because that would be typical of Trump.



Now, I wonder if those numbers are accurate and the US is being essentially blocked from selling into foreign countries.

If so, it is a negotiating strategy to get foreign countries to lower their tariffs of US imports. I would suspect that once the ranting and raving is done, tariffs placed on US products would be lowered quietly. That would be a good thing.

There is little doubt that is will cause inflation in the short term. It will also help with the deficit and revenue taken in by the US because it is another tax.

It will be a bumpy ride for the next few months.

well, people are being liberated of their 401k gains. so if that was the goal, then another promise kept?

Economy
How did the U.S. arrive at its tariff figures?
Published Thu, Apr 3 20253:21 AM EDTUpdated Thu, Apr 3 20254:12 AM EDT
Neelabh Chaturvedi, Asriel Chua

The White House Wednesday listed tariff rates for different countries. It didn’t take long for market observers to try and reverse engineer the formula.
Many observers said the U.S. appeared to have divided the trade deficit by imports from a given country to arrive at tariff rates for individual countries.
Such methodology doesn’t necessarily align with the conventional approach to calculate tariffs and would imply the U.S. would have only looked at the trade deficit in goods and ignored trade in services.
The U.S. also appeared to have applied a 10% levy for regions where it is running a trade surplus.
WASHINGTON, DC - APRIL 02: U.S. President Donald Trump speaks during a “Make America Wealthy Again” trade announcement event in the Rose Garden at the White House on April 2, 2025 in Washington, DC. Touting the event as “Liberation Day”, Trump announced additional tariffs targeting goods imported to the U.S. (Photo by Chip Somodevilla/Getty Images)
U.S. President Donald Trump speaks during a “Make America Wealthy Again” trade announcement event in the Rose Garden at the White House on April 2, 2025 in Washington, DC.
Chip Somodevilla | Getty Images
Markets have turned their sights on how U.S. President Donald Trump’s administration arrived at the figures behind the sweeping tariffs on U.S. imports declared Wednesday, which sent global financial markets tumbling and sparked concerns worldwide.

Trump and the White House shared a series of charts on social media detailing the tariff rates they say other countries impose on the U.S. Those purported rates include the countries’ “Currency Manipulation and Trade Barriers.”

An adjacent column shows the new U.S. tariff rates on each country, as well as the European Union.

Courtesy: Donald Trump via Truth Social
Those rates are, in most cases, roughly half of what the Trump administration claims each country has “charged” the U.S. CNBC could not independently verify the U.S. administration’s data on these duties.

It didn’t take long for market observers to try and reverse engineer the formula — to confusing results. Many, including journalist and author James Surowiecki, said the U.S. appeared to have divided the trade deficit by imports from a given country to arrive at tariff rates for individual countries.


Such methodology doesn’t necessarily align with the conventional approach to calculate tariffs and would imply the U.S. would have only looked at the trade deficit in goods and ignored trade in services.

For instance, the U.S. claims that China charges a tariff of 67%. The U.S. ran a deficit of $295.4 billion with China in 2024, while imported goods were worth $438.9 billion, according to official data. When you divide $295.4 billion by $438.9 billion, the result is 67%! The same math checks out for Vietnam.

“The formula is about trade imbalances with the U.S. rather than reciprocal tariffs in the sense of tariff level or non-tariff level distortions. This makes it very difficult for Asian, particularly the poorer Asian countries, to meet US demand to reduce tariffs in the short-term as the benchmark is buying more American goods than they export to the U.S., ” according to Trinh Nguyen, senior economist of emerging Asia at Natixis.

“Given that U.S. goods are much more expensive, and the purchasing power is lower for countries targeted with the highest levels of tariffs, such option is not optimal. Vietnam, for example, stands out in having the 4th largest trade surplus with the U.S., and has already lowered tariffs versus the U.S. ahead of tariff announcement without any reprieve,” Nguyen said.

The U.S. also appeared to have applied a 10% levy for regions where it is running a trade surplus.

"Absolutely nothing good coming out" of Trump tariff announcement, veteran economist Rosenberg sayswatch now
VIDEO04:53
“Absolutely nothing good coming out” of tariff announcement: economist Rosenberg
The Office of the U.S. Trade Representative laid out its approach on its website, which appeared somewhat similar to what cyber sleuths had already figured out, barring a few differences.

“While individually computing the trade deficit effects of tens of thousands of tariff, regulatory, tax and other policies in each country is complex, if not impossible, their combined effects can be proxied by computing the tariff level consistent with driving bilateral trade deficits to zero. If trade deficits are persistent because of tariff and non-tariff policies and fundamentals, then the tariff rate consistent with offsetting these policies and fundamentals is reciprocal and fair,” the website reads.

The U.S.T.R. also included estimates for the elasticity of imports to import prices—in other words, how sensitive demand for foreign goods is to prices—and the passthrough of higher tariffs into higher prices of imported goods.

This screenshot of the U.S.T.R. webpage shows the methodology and formula that was used in greater detail:


Some analysts acknowledged that the U.S. government’s methodology could give it more wiggle room to reach an agreement.

“All I can say is that the opaqueness surrounding the tariff numbers may add some flexibility in making deals, but it could come at a cost to US credibility,” according to Rob Subbaraman, head of global macro research at Nomura.

— CNBC’s Kevin Breuninger contributed to this piece.

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/04/03/how-did-the-us-arrive-at-its-tariff-figures-.html

Trump’s tariffs amount to ‘worse than worst-case scenario’ as investors brace for stock-market beatdown
U.S. stock futures and the dollar tumbled after Trump unveiled sweeping tariffs on trading partners that were higher than investors had expected
By
Joseph Adinolfi
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Published: April 2, 2025 at 6:29 p.m. ET

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President Trump unveiled his latest tariff plans at his “Make America Wealthy Again” event at the White House on Wednesday.
President Trump unveiled his latest tariff plans at his “Make America Wealthy Again” event at the White House on Wednesday.
Photo: AFP via Getty Images
Referenced Symbols
EURUSD


U.S. stock futures and the dollar tumbled on Wednesday after President Donald Trump unveiled “liberation day” tariffs that were larger than investors had expected.

President Trump strode up to the lectern in the White House’s Rose Garden shortly after 4 p.m. Eastern time to the sound of trumpets and applause from the audience.

The initial market reaction was relatively benign — with stock futures ticking higher while the dollar climbed against rivals like the euro
EURUSD


— as Trump kicked things off by announcing a 10% across-the-board tariff on all goods entering the U.S. That figure was in line with some of the more benign media reports ahead of the event.

But then, Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick handed Trump a giant table enumerating the higher rates that would be applied to certain individual American trading partners, and investors’ mood suddenly shifted. Futures turned sharply lower, along with the dollar.

According to the table, which was shared on X by the White House, the U.S. will slap a 34% tariff on Chinese goods, a 20% tariff on goods entering from the European Union and 46% on those from Vietnam.

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“Futures rose about 30 or 40 points initially when he said ‘reciprocal tariffs,’” noted Steve Sosnick, chief market strategist at Interactive Brokers, during an interview with MarketWatch.

“Reciprocal doesn’t sound so bad. Then, when people actually saw what the numbers were — 10% across the board and in many cases much higher — it became very tangible for them. And down we went.”

Stock futures were sharply lower when trading paused for an hour at 5p.m. Eastern. By the time it started back up an hour later, S&P 500 futures
ES00



.

“It’s a seismic day for global trade. Trump is blowing up the postwar system that made the U.S. and the world more prosperous, and he’s doing it with reckless confidence,” said Nigel Green, chief executive of global financial advisory giant deVere Group.

Wedbush analyst Dan Ives characterized the announcement as “worse than the worst-case scenario.”

“While there are many details to be worked out and investors will focus on the specifics over the coming 24 hours, the jaw-dropper was the China reciprocal tariff of 34%. Taiwan at 32% is the other major one along with the E.U. at 20%,” Ives said.

Diane Swonk, chief economist at KPMG U.S., said that Wednesday’s announcement would push U.S. tariffs to the highest level since the early 20th century.

Still, others pointed out that plenty of ambiguity remains. It is still unclear how long these sky-high levies will even remain in effect, said Adam Hetts, portfolio manager and global head of multiasset at Janus Henderson Investors.

“Eye-watering tariffs on a country-by-country basis scream ‘negotiation tactic,’ which will keep markets on edge for the foreseeable future,” Hetts said in written comments. “Fortunately, this means there’s substantial room for lower tariffs from here, albeit with a 10% baseline in place.”

Investors were still waiting on the official text of the executive order. But Trump said that the levies, along with a 25% tariff on all automobile imports, would take effect after midnight.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/t...brace-for-stock-market-beatdown-4cf6d5ca

Not a fan of these tariffs. I think he's lost his mind and is full of himself. And his plan isn't going to work.

what's so insane about this nonsense is that even in a reality where corporations change their business practices overnight and start developing factories in the US, it will still take a couple years to get the necessary infrastructure in place to support the economy. that means the selloff doesn't stop anytime soon.

would've been nice if we worked on that infrastructure decades ago, instead of letting corporations take off overseas and divest in the American worker.

but the free market knows what's best, so....oh well.

So in the absence of any sort of argument (thoughtful or not) we're just skipping straight to poo flinging. I was hoping for some sort of attempted explanation of intended benefits of the tariffs, especially since they're the center of Liberation Day.

Yeah, that sure does not sound like foreign countries have placed a 67% tariff (China) on incoming US goods.

He makes stuff up. They will figure it out, Trump does this stuff all the time with numbers.

This is directly related to the tariffs and is a question I think trump supporters need to consider and really should address if they have any input.

I think we all know that trump berated the NAFTA agreement as a terrible trade deal. In response he tore up NAFTA and he negotiated a new trade deal with the USMCA trade agreement with both Canada and Mexico. He called it....

"“the best and most important trade deal ever made by the USA”

https://www.texastribune.org/2020/08/12/usmca-trade-agreement-coronavirus-texas-mexico/

Yet in February he said this about the USMCA trade agreement......

President Donald Trump is outraged that Americans are footing an unfair financial burden, citing a 2020 trade deal called the U.S.-Mexico-Canada Agreement that he signed.

The president claimed during a White House press conference Monday that the impacts of the USMCA will be alleviated with a 25% tariff on all Canadian and Mexican goods starting next week, and unwittingly criticized himself after rebuking America’s neighbors.

“I mean, who can blame them if they made these great deals with the United States, took advantage of the United States on manufacturing?” Trump said Monday. “On just about anything, every aspect you can imagine, they took advantage.”

He continued, “I look at some of these agreements, I’d read them at night, and I’d say, ‘Who would ever sign a thing like this?’ So the tariffs will go forward, yes, and we’re gonna make up a lot of territory. All we want is reciprocal. We want reciprocity.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-accidentally-insults-himself-142955248.html

So now, after proclaiming what a great trade deal he made and then saying it was a terrible trade deal he made, he placed a 25% tariff on Canada and Mexico.

So was he lying to you when he signed the USMCA trade agreement or is he lying to you now?

bro even i know better than to tick off old rich white guys. Trump has messed with the wrong people's money. oopsy!

Well, this is 100% a poo flinging thread. Did you read the OP? Basically saying "let's see if anyone is stupid enough to defend this, that way we have receipts to make fun of them later." Did you read the poo flinging after that?? MGH has been off the rails since the election and now you all want a pound of flesh while the iron's hot -- i.e, before there are actual results from these actions.

I've generally refrained from participating in threads where you have to stand there and face a barrage of attacks. Especially since people, whose names I don't even need to mention, lob names like "racist", "Nazi", "Fascist"... And people like you, that have more than that shred of intellect do nothing to call them out. Especially since many of the comments that get directed at me are from low info people that have no platform but to insult and make claims that have no merit or actual thought attached... and people like you, that have more than that shred of intellect do nothing to call them out. And pleeease don't think I'm asking for that, I'm a solid four years past that.

Nobody here wants to talk about the merits or pitfalls of tariffs, they want to attack. "Trump is a spoiled child that wants to be king and he only wants to enrich himself and his friends". That's not a conversation most with an alternative view will engage in -- they'll raise an eyebrow and walk away. This thread was penned to be the latest circle-jerk. I'll stand by and laugh at the comments while you all pat yourself on the back.

This place is 100% a liberal echo chamber. It doesn't even take much of an effort to take a trip around a few message boards to see that's true. The chances for fruitful political discourse are few and far between. That's why I post here less and less, I realize more and more, what a terrible waste of time it is.

No not a poo flinging thread. I was honest about how I feel about the tariffs and Trump. I was honest about wanting people who seem to be on board with whatever Trump does to be on record - because unlike most of the noise or other executive orders that Trump initiates that people can debate after the fact, this is going to be black and white. In 24-36 months time - the economy won't be debatable. It won't be something to deflect or try to finesse into another discussion. The DOW will be the DOW. Inflation will be the rate it is. The GDP will be what it is. Exports will be an empirical number. Growth or decline will be non-debatable. There is no pandemic or Covid to try to factor (hopefully) and hopefully no Wars breakout like Ukraine. What follows will be a reflaction of this policy - and the global impact.

Trump has said a lot of things, he's done a lot of things already in Term 2. I don't see anything bigger than this for the way the country goes. "It's the economy stupid." Truimp likes the limlight - likes being famous - likes to be the headline every day through his chaos and outlandish claims. But none of that will be remembered if this fails as spectacularly as it might. No matter how dumb we think it is - we all hope the landing is as soft as possible. And - I am genuinely 100% interested in hearing about any reason to support this.

You don't like the way the copnversation was framed? Sorry - but I was being honest and transparent. You can choose to insinuate that the Tariffs are supportable and a case made for them but decline to engage ... that's your call.

Here's a very good read: https://www.kcl.ac.uk/trumps-tariffs-what-is-behind-them-and-will-they-work

Doesn't attack the tariffs - but does explain why they don't bnelieve they will be successful.

Trump’s tariffs are supposedly aimed at addressing this concern, with a view to balancing trade.

However, it is pretty much universally agreed that they will not work. Macroeconomics tells us that a trade deficit is caused by an imbalance in savings and investment, plus the difference in government spending and tax revenue – i.e. the fiscal balance. The US has a trade deficit because it runs an enormous fiscal deficit – currently around 5.5% of GDP and far higher than other rich countries. If Trump truly wanted to move the US toward a trade balance, he would need to tackle this issue. While Elon Musk and DOGE are supposed to be reducing government spending, they are unlikely to make significant headway since achieving significant spending reductions will necessitate cuts to politically sensitive areas like Medicare and Medicaid. Furthermore, Trump appears to be committed to tax cuts that will exacerbate the fiscal imbalance. As such, tariffs targeted at specific countries, notably China, may affect the bilateral trade balance but, as happened in Trump’s first administration, that trade just gets displaced elsewhere, leaving the overall trade balance unaffected because the fundamental cause – the fiscal deficit – has not changed.

On manufacturing jobs, the verdict is, I would argue, more complex. It is undeniable that the era of globalisation from around 1980 onwards has had a detrimental impact on low skilled workers. Among those who did not attend university, wages fell by around 20 per cent between 1980 and 2016 in real terms. The ‘golden age of capitalism’, from the end of WWII to around 1973, in which everyone got richer across the income distribution, has given way to a world of rising inequality, wage contraction among the low-skilled (and increased wage growth at the top end) and ever greater precarity of employment. Some of this is to do with technological changes, but it is also a result of deliberate policy interventions that prioritised the interests of capital over labour.

There's a lot more but this part I thought was most salient.

He doesn't want to talk about it so instead he uses every right wing buzz word to blame everyone else for it. Like I posted earlier... It's all my fault.

Because I knew at some point rather than taking any ownership it would be blamed on others. And there it is.....

jc


Trump's chart is misleading. It lists "Tariffs the other countries are imposing on us", when it's not that at all. It's trade deficits. What are other countries supposed to do about that? Makes no sense.

Trump Jets Off to Watch Golf as U.S. Economy Goes Up in Flames


https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mar...us-economy-goes-up-in-flames/ar-AA1CeLiv

I was listening to the meltdown on CNBC and they keep going-for the most self proclaimed business admin in history-they don't seem to give a damn about business and peoples money, and inflation-their logic is flawed, their actions are borderline idiotic-and they are sitting there this afternoon and are like-Its going good.
Vance says trump is taking the economy in a different direction-

There are some companies that are down 15-25+% on the year-and we ain't done yet

Liberation Day?
Did I get divorced again?
Didn't even know that I was married.
I need to lay off that tequila.

"Tariffs charged to the USA including Currency Manipulation and Trade Deficits" are the exact words.

Now we can have a discussion about currency manipulation, but I do not see how trade deficits can be included. That is basically rigging the books and then crying foul because the USA imports a lot of things from overseas countries. Now the more simplistic logic is yes, if you make it, can ship it here and its still a lower cost, then you can sell it. Now Trump is attacking the fact that we do something that has made common sense.

If we were being prohibited by tariffs from selling into a foreign market, that would be a reasonable explanation. This is just silly.

Do you really not see that the reverse is true as well? I won't dispute your point, but I know for a fact that I have stuck up for you before to people on the left. I will admit that has definitely died down given the rapport of some of our recent conversations.

But with people throwing out the term "Libtard" constantly, amid other posters who put everyone on Ignore and then just hurl passive aggressive insults and whatnot...

You yourself have walked into various conversations with guns blazin' at times as well. I have also done that.

There are no innocent parties on here (or few at least).

Many on the right and the left have both left this forum. We're just the idiots who keep getting drawn back in again and again for reasons unbeknownst to me. Maybe we hold out false hope. Who knows...

Dow down 1689 pts. That’s what America thinks of these tariffs.

Being honest i read Fate's post as more of a rant than anything. I reqd yours as more of the poo flinging/personal attack. Neither is particularly conducive to discussion but yours seems more likely to escalate into the personal insults and memes. Jmo

What personal insult did you see in my post? Maybe you should look back over FATE's post again. I simply stated what he did. He blamed everyone else for his lack of posting a rational response. But I have seen poo flinging start over less than that.

It's all my fault.


What post was it you were readimg again?

I went back and re-read the OP, and in all honesty, if that's too intense for you then you're going to have a hard time finding a home anywhere on the internet. mgh goes into the name-calling at the end, but it's pretty mild. It's also funny that the person with the first response is whining about poo-flinging.

You taking umbrage with the tone of the OP is proving his point more than anything else. So congrats for that, I guess. IMO, there is a whole lot coming out of this admin right now that really isn't anywhere near as debatable as it is bad for the country. I don't see how badgering allies the way we are, blindly (and in some cases illegally) slashing budgets that don't even add up to anywhere near the stating savings goal, and eroding things like due process and checks&balances are good for the country. Nothing would make me happier than a common sense explanation on why it is.

As for who's got who's back... yeah, I understand DT is very much a middle school playground, but I just don't go for that. I don't see Pit's posts, and it's VERY rare that I click to reveal them. Honestly, when I thread is just you or lamp or Memphis going back and forth with **You are ignoring this user** then that just means I'm probably done with the thread. I've probably "gone to bat" for you more times than I have the rest of the folks you mentioned. I don't carry water for any major political party, so I don't feel obligated to go to bat for something I don't agree with.

White House defends not including Russia, North Korea on tariffs

The White House on Thursday defended its decision to not include Russia, North Korea, Cuba or Belarus in the latest round of tariffs, which targeted dozens of global trading partners that were labeled the “worst offenders” when it came to trade barriers.

A White House official told The Hill in a statement that the four nations “are not subject to the Reciprocal Tariff Executive Order because they are already facing extremely high tariffs, and our previously imposed sanctions preclude any meaningful trade with these countries.”

The official added that Trump has “recently threatened to impose strong sanctions on Russia” to further explain leaving out Moscow.

President Trump on Wednesday imposed a 10 percent baseline tax on goods being imported into the U.S. But many countries were targeted with even higher tariffs, including China, Vietnam, Taiwan, Japan, India, South Korea, Thailand, Switzerland, Indonesia, Malaysia, Cambodia and the European Union.

China will face the highest tariffs; the president announced a 34 percent tariff Wednesday that will be imposed on top of a previously implemented 20 percent tariff for a total 54 percent tariff on goods.

Other high numbers include 46 percent on Vietnam, 32 percent on Taiwan, 32 percent on Indonesia and 49 percent on Cambodia.

Trump said last month he is weighing additional sanctions and tariffs on Russia as a way to bring Moscow to the negotiating table to end the war in Ukraine. Russia said weeks later that it expects the U.S. to ease certain sanctions as part of an agreement for a limited ceasefire with Ukraine.

https://thehill.com/homenews/admini...donald-trump-tariffs-russia-north-korea/

Putin and Kim Jong Un win again as trump continues to punish our allies.

Well, to be fair we have Russia under sanctions. So, we aren't doing trade with them. There isn't any trade to tariff.

Too intense for me?? That's definitely not dismissive, sarcastic or passive aggressive. You should have had more "likes" for that one. 🤣

I didn't say it's too scary for me, I said I choose not to participate because it's a fool's errand.