DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski sign contract extensions with the Browns

After five seasons excuses and bad luck flies out of the window. The quality of the leadership is what the results say.

Who are you claiming to be leadership? Is Berry not giving Stefanski the talent to win with or is it Stefanski can't win with the good talent Berry is giving him? No matter how you slice it, it isn't legitimate to claim it's both.

Given the number of times we've been told that the decisions made in Berea are "collaborative" that would indicate that "it" very well could be both.

How many player have we drafted that have elicited the response "Who?" or "Say what"
Way too many
I think Berry tries to outsmart everyone and but only ends up outsmarting himself

How many player have we drafted that have gotten better after they joined our team?
The only one I can think of is JOK but that is because he got so much worse his first year with us that when he got back to where he was in college it was a huge improvement. We don't develop anybody

So I agree that it is both

We may not like the honest answer...but it is "both'!

Stefanski and Berry are both guilty of producing poor results based on the performance of Berry and Stefanski.

I will also point out that the Browns operate with an upper layer of management that has the power to alter the leadership of Berry and Stefanski. I'm talking about the Browns "hands on everything owner Jimmy Haslam" and his right hand man, ex-baseball GM and Browns Chief Stratagy officer, Depodesta.

These 4 individuals occupy leadership positions and they rank #1-Haslam #2-Depo #3-Berry and #4-Stefanski.

It's difficult to judge the performance and leadership of Berry and Stefanski given the present management structure.

IMO, last season's 3-14 record was a perfect example of a franchise attempting to operate with 4 leaders.

The FO selects the players. The coach coaches the players the FO gives him to coach. Stefanski may give the FO the "type of players" he wants at different positions, ie..... smaller, faster LB'ers, a more physical RB, etc..... but he isn't selecting the players drafted or signed.

You don't have an entire scouting staff and analytics department so the HC who does none of that makes the picks and makes deals in regards to signing players.

That would be the extent of Stefanski's "collaboration" in that department. You do have four leaders. Each being the leader at their job. Stefanski's job is to coach. I sure hope nobody else is the leader or equal leader at his job. And common sense should tell you nobody else is. Just like he is not one of the leaders in doing the job of GM.

When discussing talent, this is a playoff caliber team 2 out of the last 5 years, 1 in the previous 18 seasons. What we haven’t had is an influx of young talent with only 1 draft pick in the last three years in the top two rounds (second rounder Michael Hall). It’s tough to stay at a high level without young talent to supplement aging vets.

At the end of the day, this staff has been more successful than any other staff in the 25 years since the Browns return. Anyone remember 1-31…

It might take a year or two to dig out of the Watson mess, but I’m not convinced Stefanski and Berry won’t survive the debacle.

Once upon a time in a land far far away there lived a horrendous ogre named Paul Depodesta.

Dogs aren't cats

Numbers are numbers.

Last place
No superbowl wins when Berry and Stefanski said they could win the Super Bowl with
With Watson playing half the season

When did Stefanski say he could win the SB with watson playing half the season?

How about these numbers..?

Browns Owners record since 2012...73 wins--138 losses--1 tie

Browns Chief strategist record since 2012...54 wins--93 losses--1 tie

Owner = 11 seasons with losing record...2 seasons with a winning record

Chief strategist = 7 seasons with losing record...2 seasons with winning record

The Browns are what their record says they are...thanks to the poor performance of these 2 leaders.

I keep going back to this simple question...what are we good at in the front office and/or coaching? Spending Jimmy's money isn't an answer.

Collecting large paychecks for unacceptable results.

Whats next? Ya gonna blame the janitors that have been here 12 years for our record. You do know sweeping the floor is different than football.

I forget who repeated by name
Why do you ask
Remember Berry and Stefanski felt that Mayfield should have beat Kc with Higgins and a injured Landry

I don't recall them saying anything about a Superbowl win, but it was a bad deal as it turned out.

I do recall reading that 4-5 other teams were seeking the trade, so it's a hindsight comment that any simpleton can make now.

Any negative comments at the time were about character issues, not performance issues, so let's keep it real.

I think this is probably a good question or angle to focus on with regards to how AB and KS have performed. So many factors can impact winning and losing seasons - from injuries to obviously trading for Watson which has been nothing short of disasterous.

On Berry:

1. I think you could say Berry has manipulated the salary cap. You can argue whether or not he's a genius or simply doing what any competant GM wuld do if the owner was willing to commit $$$ the same way. I tend not to want to give him a lot of credit here - but many do, so it's on the list.
2. I think Berry has shown himself to be a shrewd negotiator with trades. Full credit here. Additions like Jeudy and Cooper were big moves. Credit due.
3. On drafting players - I actually think he's poor. It's on the list because it's such an important part of his job. Newsome and JOK are the highlights out of some very MEH draft classes AB has put together. You could add Delphit once he was used properly, Jacob Philips and Emerson have contributed more than most others. Wills was a big whiff - Schwartz a disaster we clung on to forever - same with David Bell (Berry has been woeful at drafting WR).
4. On Watson - Berry owns a little part of the blame. Whether it was Jimmy who altimately decided to go all out or not, Berry must have been on board and must have been happy to overlook the way things ended in HOU with the hold out and numerour legal issues that were ongoing at that time. A massive gamble that failed.

On KS:

1. He outperformed the rest of the NFL during cvoid.
2. Like covid, he has shown an ability to outperform when expectations were low.
3. Personally on the flip side he seems to have chronically under performed when expectations we raised.
4. He's done great with 'back up' QBs like Brisset and Flacco.
5. Conversely he utterly failed to coach/mentor/protect Baker. We can agree that was an almost impossible challenge - but there are degrees of success/failure and the way it ended and the way the injury was handled was amateur hour and as big an F as imaginable.
6. He's been aggressive on play calling 4th downs - but we've seen the success rates of those calls have been below NFL average which means the high % of going for it combined with a lower success % is bad play calling.
7. I'd also argue he has shown a tendancy to get pass happy - even with Chubb in the backfield and rookie/back up QB's playing.
8. I'd argue he also calls plays like he is trying to out-smart and out-cute other NFL HC's - and he's come up losing out more often than winning those scenarios.
9. He's called some great games - and we've seen a tendancy to have more great first half play calling than the ability to adjust at half time.

As ever - all strictly my opinon. I wasn't in favor of the extensions when they happened. All we can do as fans is hope it works out for the best.

Nice but I called that trade the worst in the history of football the day of.
So who is the simpleton?
Have a good day

Ha ha

Can you show me where they said that?

I think that's the only people he hasn't blamed yet.

Even if you're in that boat that supports the claim that Berry only makes the player selections and Stefanski only coaches said players (as their set assignments), it doesn't change the fact that Stefanski has had the opportunity to coach two 1st round selections at QB (1 of which was a top-5 QB and the other a top-5 QB shortly after he left) and has failed miserably to get Top 5 play out of either player.

Now, you can jump on that excuse boat of claiming players attitude, immaturity, off the field issues and so on contributed to the issue but how many HC's in the NFL have had two top 5 former or current QB's under their control the last 5-years and couldn't raise either players performance to that top 5 level under their coaching?

Now you can blame Berry for dumping one and acquiring the other as the problem but when does lack of coaching ability take accountability?

So, here we are on the cusp of another draft and FA. The Browns need QB's and a solid draft pick. They've acquired Flacco and Pickens. It would also appear that a 1st or 2nd round QB may be in the mix. If the Browns fail with these QB's again, who is responsible? Berry for not providing a top 5 QB or Stefanski because he can't coach them up? Even with the high draft pick, considering its documented weakness, have the Browns changed their former 5-year mission and vision of a must have a top 5 QB in order to be Super Bowl competitive? Have Berry and Stefanski now collaborated on having a top 20 QB as being sufficient to reach the elusive Super Bowl plateau? It would certainly appear so since their current crop (including the draft pick) has little to no chance of being a top 5 QB in 2025 or 2026, JMHO.

If that is the case, are the Browns not falling back to 2021 when they had a top 15 QB but determined it would never work - even though he was a top 5 player a couple of years later? This is why I've had little to no faith in Stefanski and Berry. When does accountability start for these guys, after another failure? Their history shows that failure is more likely than success! They're sporting a 5-year losing record (including playoffs) of 41-46 and must win 12 games this year to climb above .500 for 6-seasons. When is enough is enough?

This is kinda off-topic... but I really hope we get to find out the full story regarding Watson's on-the-field performance here. The way his play just absolutely cratered the moment he left Houston is mind-blowing. It feels like one of those situations where there's gonna be a mega-article written a couple years down the line when someone finally spills the beans. I highly doubt it's going to put Cleveland or the Browns in a positive light, but oh well.

I'm kinda with you in terms of Baker. Baker had to grow up and be more of a pro in order to enjoy the success he has now, but I do fault KS somewhat for not helping him more in getting there.

So Stefanski made watson start throwing the ball into the ground. Good to know.

No, but he didn't do that in Houston when coached by O'Brien. Why is that? Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting Watson at all. However, Stefanski has not been able to coach up any top-rated QB since he's been here. Career backups or over 40 - yes or maybe with mixed results. Most coaches can only dream of having the opportunity to coach a top 5 talent. Stefanski has had two opportunities for 5 straight years and failed miserably at both. After all, the numbers don't lie - he has a 5-year losing record with a team that has spent more or at least top 3 than any other team during that period. Now people are excited about the opportunity to hand this guy on a platter another possible 1st round pick. Excuse me for being skeptical, but after 5-years with less than poor results coaching previous 1st round selections who were or are top 5 talent doesn't make me warm and fluffy all over in the least.

Do you even know the hit rate on first round QB's is? So is it your contention that Stefanski "untrained" watson on how to play the QB position? Stefanski did lead the Browns to the playoffs with Mayfield at QB. So far that's the best Baker has done since he left here too.

Why is it you didn't mention that watson didn't want to come here in the first place?


That and you seem to think that all of his personal issues played no part in what transpired. You make it sound pretty good when you only tell part of the story.

To be fair, he was hitting with Baker... until he wasn't. Baker and Chubb were HUMMING until the shoulder injury and then the line started falling apart.

To be fair, Mayfield was hitting because the COVID limited his contact with Stefanski. As soon as Stefanski got full control he bailed on him. Remember, the thought process was the Browns couldn't get to the Super Bowl with Mayfield and they needed a top-5 QB to achieve that goal. Nevermind Baker taking the Browns to the playoffs for the first time in almost 2 decades or that he started out on fire in week 1 of the 2022 season before injuring his shoulder in week 2. The Browns (Berry and Stefanski) dumped a QB after 4-years after setting the rookie record for TD passes at the time, made the playoffs and actually won a game, and then bailed on him after an injury season that Stefanski should take blame for playing a player he knew wasn't up to par. Enter top 5 QB Watson and what a failure it has been. Stefanski couldn't coach up Mayfield or Watson. What in his bag makes anyone think he can coach up Dart, Milroe, or any other draft pick?

Here's one for the pundits, name me a QB with less than 7 years' NFL experience when he got them that Stefanski has coached up to success as an OC or HC.

2019: Kirk Cousins (yr 8), Sean Mannion (yr 5);
2020: Case Keenum (yr 8), Baker Mayfield (yr 3);
2021: Case Keenum (yr 9), Nick Mullens (yr 4), Baker Mayfield (4);
2022: Jacoby Brissett (yr 7), Josh Rosen (yr 4), Kellen Mond (yr 2), Deshaun Watson (yr 5);
2023: DTR (yr 1), Joshua Dobbs (yr 3), Jeff Driskel (yr 6), Joe Flacco (yr 16), P. J. Walker (yr 4), Deshaun Watson (yr 6);
2024: Deshaun Watson (yr 7), DTR (yr 2), Tyler Huntley (yr 5), Jamis Winston (yr 10), Bailey Zappe (yr 3).

As you can see, the answer to the above question is ZERO!

I stand corrected, I discounted Winston so actually Stefanski has had three 1st round selected QB's in 5 years with Cleveland that he couldn't coach up to a top-level QB for the Browns.

2024 projection: Joe Flacco (yr 18), Kenny Pickett (yr 4) another 1st round pick, Unknown rookie (yr 1).

and some are irrational.

Others are imaginary.

This isn't even rational, much less fair. Your argument is that a QB executed because a 2-time coach-of-the-year winner wasn't allowed to coach him. Baker isn't with Cleveland because of Baker. It's lamentable that KS doesn't/didn't have the leadership chops to get him to grow up.

As for your list... that isn't exactly a murderer's row of NFL QBs. You've got Baker, and Cousins the year after he showed up in Minny. Of the remainder of the QBs (which are backup-level, at best), I'd say he did a really good job with Jacoby, given what he was dealing with. Other than that, not sure what you're expecting from the likes of Mond, PJ Walker, etc. He did (barely) coax a win out of PJ Walker. I'm not really sure what you're getting at here.... is it KS's fault that he wasn't able to conjure a starter out of a rotating list of backups and PS-caliber QBs?

As for Watson... my belief is that whatever happened with him post-Houston is bigger than him or the coach or whatever, and the fault lies with whoever pushed to make that trade thinking he'd be the solution.

The only one you've managed to convince with that nonsense is yourself.

I was asked if I had a clue about the success rate of a QB drafted in the 1st round. So, I checked and there have been 38 QB's selected in the 1st round between 2011 and 2022. The years of 2023 and 2024 were excluded because there's not enough data to prove one way or another at this time. Anyway, of the 38 selected there were 12 that are/were above average or a direct hit. The success rate is 31.58% over the 12-year period. Considering the early performances of the QB's the last two years, this percentage rate of success will rise.

Of course, the Browns success rate over the time period is zero percent with misses on Mayfield (FO/HC Decision), Manziel, and Weeden.

Over the 14-year period, the Browns have actually had 9 of the 1st round selection on their roster one time or another. That's 23.68% of the 1st round selections during this time period have made a stopover in Cleveland.

Stefanski himself will, in year 6, have his fourth first round selection QB on the roster in Pickett and maybe a 5th depending on if Berry pulls the trigger on a QB in round 1.

2024: Too Early to Rate
Caleb Williams
Jayden Daniels
Drake Maye
Michael Penix Jr
JJ McCarthy
Bo Nix

2023: Too Early to Rate
Bryce Young
CJ Stroud
Anthony Richardson

2022:
Kenny Pickett - current miss

2021:
Trevor Lawrence – Above Average - Hit (1)
Zach Wilson – Miss
Justin Fields – Currently a Miss
Trey Lance – Miss
Mac Jones - Miss

2020:
Joe Burrow – Hit (2)
Tua Tagovailoa – Above Average - Hit (3)
Justin Herbert – Above Average - Hit (4)
Jordan Love – Above Average - Hit (5)

2019:
Kyler Murray – Average - could still be hit or miss
Daniel Jones – Miss
Dwayne Haskins - Miss

2018:
Baker Mayfield – Currently Above Average - Hit (6)
Sam Darnold – Average - could still be hit or miss
Josh Allen – Hit (7)
Josh Rosen – Miss
Lamar Jackson – Hit (8)

2017:
Mitchell Trunbisky – Miss
Patrick Mahomes – Hit (9)
Deshaun Watson - Was a hit early but Currently, a big miss

2016:
Jared Goff – Hit (10)
Carson Wentz – Miss
Paxton Lynch – Miss

2015:
Jameis Winston – Miss
Marcus Mariota - Miss

2014:
Blake Bortles – Miss
Johnny Manziel – Miss
Teddy Bridgewater - Miss

2013:
EJ Manuel – Miss

2012:
Andrew Luck – Hit (11)
RGIII – Miss
Ryan Tannehill – Average QB - Miss
Brandon Weeden – Miss

2011:
Cam Newton – Hit (12)
Jake Locker – Miss
Blain Gabbert – Miss
Christian Ponder – Miss

You also tried to make your case by listing former first round QB's that the entire league had determined were no better than capable back ups at best. You claimed he failed with baker Mayfield when Baker's last healthy season here he made the playoffs with Baker. That's the very best Baker has done since he left here. And you list Pickett who the Steelers have already given up on.

Sometimes I'm not sure if you even hear yourself but we do.

I'm beginning to wonder if I'm missing something regarding the point you're trying to make. If so, I do apologize.

I don't understand why you labeled Mayfield a miss. He's obviously gotten it together and has the skill to be a starter. I would argue the same regarding Tannehill's overall career (I'd put him as solidly average and a 'hit' considering he was a starter over the majority of his career and has a pro-bowl selection). One could also argue for Bridgewater being a hit (I'm less sure about that one).

Let’s start with thet easiest one.
Coach-of-the-year is a consolation prize. If you don’t see this you’re beyond hope. It’s means absolutely nothing.


Stefanski failed miserably with Baker. On every level.
If Baker’s career has ended in Cleveland then maybe you have a point, but it didn’t.

Lack of discipline. It’s the HC responsibility to install that.

Lack of communication. Any wise and experienced HC knows that an open communication is everything. When a player starts to communicate via social media it means that those in charge have failed.

Lack of trust. When a relationship has come to the point that trust is gone, guess what, it’s on the person who has the most power.

A player can be emotional, throw a tantrum, behave badly. Travis Kelce acted like an idiot against his HC on the biggest stage. Their relationship didn’t brake down. Nothing changed their chemistry or respect for each other. That’s the difference between a leader who knows how to handle those with to much attitude and Kevin Stefanski.

Stefanski has over the years shown multiple times that he’s a mediocre, sometimes even bad, when it comes to dealing with players who have an attitude, and that’s lot of those in the NFL.

The person who’s in charge is supposed to be the grown up, the wise, the person with both discipline and compassion. That’s not Kevin’s strength.
He’s a school teacher who takes care of football players.

Deshaun Watson?
His failure with Baker is just another sign of his lack of maturity when players don’t dance to his tune.

I'm not sure why the darts are coming but let me unconfuse you about the post.

Pit, the QB's I listed were every QB that was drafted in the 1st round during the timeframe. You asked me about the success rate of 1st round QB's. If you're going to list the successes, you need to list the misses to get that percentage of hits. Whether the league had determined them to be capable backups or not is inmaterial - they are all part of the 1st round picks.

Stefanski (and Berry) had determined they couldn't achieve their goal with Mayfield. In what world do you live where a FO determines you're not good enough as being a "Hit?" Right or wrong (that's another topic), Stefanski and Berry gave up on Mayfield - PERIOD. Also, Mayfield has had 2 of the 3 best years he's had the last 2 seasons with last year being his best according to QB Rating. Finally, Pickett was listed as a current miss after missing with PIT and PHI. I listed him as current only because he has another chance in Cleveland and may turn it around - maybe.

oober, I didn't list Mayfield as a miss - he's listed as above average and a hit. The part you are reading refers to his time here in Cleveland where Stefanski and Berry gave up on Mayfield. Certainly, you can't call his time here as a hit when the FO gives up on you - can you? He's a hit now because of his turnaround in Tampa.

I was torn on Tannehill for the exact reasons you posted. That's why I listed him as an average starter but average isn't good enough to be a hit. I mean, people will bitch about Mayfield being on the list with his 2 Pro Bowls, Offensive rookie of the year, and 3 playoff appearances in 7 years compared to Tannehill's 1 Pro Bowl in 11 seasons. Bridgewaters's injury killed him - he was never the same after that gruesome injury.

Hope this provides a little context for you guys.