DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Interesting article on the DA/BQ wonderings of next year

Quinn's Still The Man
January 5, 2008 · By Nick Allburn
While the entire NFL was surprised by Derek Anderson's success, no team was more astounded by Anderson's sudden emergence than the Browns. Anderson posted gaudy numbers in 2007; 3,787 yards passing and 29 touchdowns, statistics which dwarf the accomplishments of other expansion-era Browns quarterbacks.

Of the numerous expansion-era Browns signal callers, only Tim Couch has broken the 3,000 yard barrier (3,040 yards in 2001). To find a Browns quarterback who threw more than 29 touchdown passes, one must look back to 1980, when Brian Sipe threw for 30 scores and over 4,000 yards. Browns fans have not watched a quarterback enjoy this kind of statistical success in the last two decades, yet here we are, discussing the possibility of trading Derek Anderson this off-season so that the keys to the offense can be handed to a red-shirted freshman quarterback who has only thrown eight regular season passes. On paper, it looks like lunacy.

But I don't want to dive into the DA versus Quinn debate, at least not yet. No, instead I'd like to take a look at a few events that took place during the time frame of the Browns' final pair of games. These events, some of which were very unlikely, may have tipped the scales in Quinn's favor.

Browns at Bengals: The Anderson Meltdown

The Browns had a chance to clinch their first playoff birth since 2002, and all they had to do was sink the rudderless Cincinnati Bengals. But the Browns choked, losing in the Queen City 19-14 due almost solely to a catastrophic showing by Derek Anderson. DA threw four interceptions, two of which gave the Bengals laughably short fields which resulted in touchdowns. Prior to this game, some of the more sophomoric Cleveland sports talk show hosts were ready to canonize Anderson, as they mocked anyone who even alluded to Quinn getting a shot at the starting job in ‘08.

Derek Anderson was faltering somewhat, even prior to the Bengals game. Anderson hadn't had a rating of over 100 since week eight (at St. Louis), defenses were starting to figure him out, and his play had cost the Browns one game (at Arizona) and contributed heavily to the Browns' second half collapse in Pittsburgh. And if one objectively reviews the game video from the entire season, even the most ardent Anderson supporter would have to concede that DA consistently left points on the field. This is witnessed in the fact that the Browns never blew out an opponent, even in games that the Browns controlled from start to finish (Houston, New York Jets, San Francisco).

That said, the Cincinnati game was the most costly loss for Derek Anderson; he missed an opportunity to lock up a playoff spot, he missed an opportunity to possibly cement himself as the Browns' starting quarterback next season, and he probably cost himself millions of dollars in the event that another team tries to sign him or trade for him (signing him to a long-term deal afterwards).

It was only one bad game, and everyone's entitled to one, but for many Browns fans, that game allowed Derek Anderson to make a complete transition from hero to goat. While Anderson is far from a finished product, the Cincinnati game glaringly exposed two of his largest flaws; inaccuracy and making lazy reads, bird-dogging receivers. The door had been opened for Brady Quinn.

Browns Re-Sign Ken Dorsey

The Wednesday after the Bengals game, the Browns gave third string quarterback Ken Dorsey a three-year contract extension. This started speculation that the Browns were essentially re-committing to Quinn, as Dorsey had been given the mantle of being Quinn''s "mentor" during the pre-season.

Truth be told, as a number three quarterback with vast knowledge of OC Rob Chudzinski''s system, Dorsey was also instrumental in Derek Anderson's development. But there's little doubt that Dorsey is probably more important to Quinn than Anderson, both personally and professionally, as Quinn once described Dorsey as "a mentor, [and] a friend". It was Quinn, not Anderson, who issued a public plea for Dorsey's return after the Browns waived him in their last wave of training camp cuts. While it was hardly a public vote of confidence in Quinn, re-upping with Dorsey may have been an indicator that the Browns were starting to lean in Brady's direction.

Quinn Gets His Chance

Following a week of speculation on whether or not Quinn would play, Romeo Crennel foolishly resolved to play Derek Anderson for the entirety of the Browns' final game against San Francisco, taking imprudent risks with the health of the quarterback who would have invariably started had the Browns qualified for the playoffs. Frankly, playing all of the starters for the vast majority of the game was lazy and uncreative thinking on Crennel's part.

Quinn would get his chance anyway, and whether it was fate or dumb luck, a mid-second quarter injury to Derek Anderson's throwing hand allowed Quinn to lead the Cleveland's final drive of the half. Quinn played as well as anyone could have hoped, leading the Browns deep into San Francisco territory and ending the drive with a field goal. In fairness, Quinn, who was victimized by three drops (including two in the end zone), played much better than his stat line (3-8, 45 yards) indicates.

Quinn played as well as the Browns could have hoped, which has been Quinn's modus operandi since he signed his contract. On and off of the field, Quinn has done everything the Browns have asked. During the pre-season, Quinn moved the offense effectively whenever coach Crennel called his number. And during the regular season, Quinn never complained about holding a clipboard behind Charlie Frye or Derek Anderson. Actually, Quinn has made most of his noise in the marketing department, serving as a pitchman for sports supplement giant EAS and starring in a goofy ad for Subway.

What It All Means

Nobody''s saying that Anderson is garbage; he's a pretty good fit for Chudzinski's offense and he can probably be an average or above average quarterback in Cleveland for years to come. The question for Phil Savage and friends is whether or not they have more confidence in Brady Quinn, and whether or not they want to bank on Quinn's vast, albeit untapped, potential.

It seems unlikely to me that the Browns will start next season with Anderson and Quinn on the roster. To do so risks a schism in the locker room, a media circus, and ignores an obvious opportunity for the Browns to trade one quarterback this off-season to upgrade their lackluster defensive front seven.

So what will happen? To me, it looks like the Browns will trade Derek Anderson and install Quinn as the starter, and it looks like the three events I highlighted above have greased the wheels for such a decision. The Browns have too much invested in Quinn to give up on him. The investment isn't so much financial (Quinn's contract is very manageable), but rather in terms of draft choices and philosophy. Phil Savage staked his reputation and quite possibly his career in Cleveland to Brady Quinn when he traded up to select him in last April's draft. And for better or worse, those investments will keep Savage in Quinn''s corner.

http://theclevelandfan.com/article_detail.php?blgId=2759

i think its funny that Derek Anderson can throw over 3000 yards and 29 TDs but he's worse than that.

but quinn is 3/8 with 45 yards and is better than that.



I understand it, and it makes sense. I just dont like it.

There is nothing new in this guys article for me. It's the same arguments that have been rehashed here on this board, and likely will continue to be rehashed until a clear course is set.

The writer did say a few things that I DO NOT agree with however.

Quote:

---

It seems unlikely to me that the Browns will start next season with Anderson and Quinn on the roster. To do so risks a schism in the locker room, a media circus, and ignores an obvious opportunity for the Browns to trade one quarterback this off-season to upgrade their lackluster defensive front seven.

---

I just don't see the players being a problem. They play for RAC not DA, and not BQ. I don't know it for a fact but I think they will support RAC in whatever decision he makes as far as who the QB will be. Once RAC decides who the QB is going to be the media and the fans are sure to stir the pot, but if history is our guide RAC won't fold to any outside media / fan revolt. The last point he makes I agree with, it could come to pass that the Browns decide that DA's value is getting better players for us on the defensive side of the ball.

Quote:

---

The Browns have too much invested in Quinn to give up on him. The investment isn't so much financial (Quinn's contract is very manageable), but rather in terms of draft choices and philosophy. Phil Savage staked his reputation and quite possibly his career in Cleveland to Brady Quinn when he traded up to select him in last April's draft. And for better or worse, those investments will keep Savage in Quinn''s corner.

---

I don't agree with this statement at ALL. 1st we start the season with CF, and then along comes DA, and he puts life back into the Browns. The idea that we have to much invested in Quinn is without merit period. PS would be an absolute idiot and would in fact be risking his job by not sticking with the best QB for the Cleveland Browns, the hell with the course choosen. I can't speak for the rest of the Browns fan base but I expect PS to make the best moves for the Browns, and if that means going in another direction, or a direction that he wasn't aware was available to him last spring then thats what I would expect him to do, anything less send his ass packing. I now refer to PS and RAC as the trusted ones, because I don't think either man is beyond admitting a mistake, or making a course correction if thats whats best for the Browns.

The trusted ones will do what is best for the Browns, period. Be it keeping, trading, signing, for whatever or whomever to make the Browns the best they can be. I expect nothing less, and I am certain thats what they will deliver..

JMHO

Brown to the Bone

Roethlisberger threw 3 INTs & fumbled on the last play of the drive keeping them from advancing in the playoffs...



Perhaps they should trade him for draft picks and promote Brian St. Pierre. After all, Big Ben will probably only be an average or above average QB for Pitt for years to come.

see? Cal, I get ya...


Thats what I dont like about this debate about DA/BQ. DA is gonna be good.

Quote:

---

Following a week of speculation on whether or not Quinn would play, Romeo Crennel foolishly resolved to play Derek Anderson for the entirety of the Browns' final game against San Francisco, taking imprudent risks with the health of the quarterback who would have invariably started had the Browns qualified for the playoffs. Frankly, playing all of the starters for the vast majority of the game was lazy and uncreative thinking on Crennel's part.

---

Typical talking head or media type.. Doesn't know much but tells everyone else what they did wrong...

I do believe we have already covered all the areas this writer touched on in his story.

Not really anything new here other than some of the writers personal opinions which are just another opinion based on no evidence...just the writer's speculation.

But hey, we should welcome Nick Allburn to the board...if he's not already a member... ....woof...mac

So far, the most outlandish idea I've heard came from a buddy of mine who's a steeler fan. He said the Browns should play Quinn in 2008 and compare his season to Anderson's in 2007. Whomever has the better year should stay, and whomever's wasn't as good should go. Obviously, he's not a football Einstein!

I just don't know where I sit on this issue. If we could get at least a 1st and 3rd or even a pick and a top level DL from another team, it would be hard to turn that down. On the other hand, we have the proven in Anderson and the unproven in Quinn. What if we get rid of Anderson and Quinn isn't as good? Then there's also the injury factor. Look how many mediocre QBs took snaps this season (Chris Weinke, for goodness sakes even got a start). I'm sure whatever decision is made, will be scrutinized for years to come! I'm also glad I don't have to make it.

I believe this article tells it like it is. I agree with just about everything he said.
...now we await Versatile Dawg to denounce the article.

Quote:

---

I believe this article tells it like it is. I agree with just about everything he said.
...now we await Versatile Dawg to denounce the article.

---

Let me see if I can beat Vers to the punch on this..

Vette are you saying you agree that RAC missed the boat not playing Quinn more in the last game?

I personally think that the reporter is trying to pass off his judgement as being superior to RACs about that subject. I guess that's why RAC is an NFL Coach and the writer is,,,,,,,well..... a writer!

Quote:

---

He could only control what was in front of him and he did the right thing.

---

I agree with that and it was the right decision.

As slim as the chances were we did have a chance, two of them, to get us in the playoffs in the last game of the season.

Once was a Tenn loss. The other was a Tenn tie. If we lose and they lose we're in. If we lose and they tie, admittedly a rare NFL outcome, we are out.

What would the same people who are now saying we shouldn't have played our starters in that game be saying if we didn't and lost that game only to have Tenn tie the Colts?

It's my bet that they'd be once again screaming for RAC's head because he should have controlled what was in front of him but didn't.

Sign DA to the highest tender....

So that if no team doesn't want to cough up the draft picks.. then we keep him for another year and see if he does what he did this past season, and that is lead the Browns to a winning record.

jc...

I have no problem with RAC's decision to play the starters. Anyone who really believed Tenn would lose that Indy game, knowing Dungy would not play starters for long was hiding in the sand.

So, play the starters, go 7-1 at home, and get the first double digit win season in the expansion era. Go into the off season with some confidence.

Ending the season with 2 losses could have been deflating to the team going into the off season, on top of missing the playoffs.

Although I think he should have just left Quinn in after Andersen's injury. On the off chance that Tenn did lose, you don't want your starter to aggravate the injury to the point of being unable to play.

They play for RAC not DA, and not BQ. I don't know it for a fact but I think they will support RAC in whatever decision he makes as far as who the QB will be. Once RAC decides who the QB is going to be the media and the fans are sure to stir the pot, but if history is our guide RAC won't fold to any outside media / fan revolt. The last point he makes I agree with, it could come to pass that the Browns decide that DA's value is getting better players for us on the defensive side of the ball.

This decision has nothing to do with the fans/media..just like it didn't when Phil shipped Frye out...
I remember his remark.."U think we're running an experiment here? We're trying to win"...
It will all hinge on Phil/Rac's evaluation of DA...and how they tender him..
Then if it's structured to invite teams to come seeking to sign him..then as the saying goes, let the chips fall where they may..

At the same time we could see DA here next season but if he's not compensated for he becomes a UFA after next season which means he walks , and the Browns don't get any compensation from it..
I'll say this ..if he is here, he DRASTICALLY needs to improve two things..
1-DECISION MAKING
2-ACCURACY...

general reply....

the thing i don't see mentioned is that da was in essence a rookie also....first year as a starter, and first year in this system...he could possibly improve....

now he does need work reading coverages, and his short throw accuracy sucks....the last few games it looked like he was trying to take some off, and this made his accuracy worse...add in the weather and some balls were way off target.

another thing that rubs me the wrong way is having qb depth....everyone says it can cause problems....well i agree, but only if your losing...winning makes it forgotten....having good depth at every other position is a plus, but not at qb? i think thats wrong...

i'd rather win...and if the starter goes down....keep winning...

i guess it will come down to trade offers, savage will have to decide if its worth losing depth at qb, to gain somewhere else....two first day picks could land us 2 good defensive players, or a great running back, and a good defensive player from the draft...then we get another backup qb in fa...

i myself think that our offense started to stall when teams slowed down cribbs...we also seemed to became more commited to the run as the season went on....teams took away the deep ball, stopped blitzing and gave anderson the chance to make mistakes...


now if quinn is as good as guys like diam thinks he is, then he may in fact be better now than anderson could ever be....it was said by someone that he had "frye's mobility, da's arm, and dorsey's smarts".....well if thats the case, i gotta be honest, i wanna see him play...

glad i don't have to figure this out...

now he does need work reading coverages, and his short throw accuracy sucks....the last few games it looked like he was trying to take some off, and this made his accuracy worse...add in the weather and some balls were way off target.


Sometimes I feel he ignores the coverage because he thinks he can get the ball into a small window..
Other times I'm not sure what he's seeing..because you can see defenders either right there or sitting there waiting to jump the pass..
He doesn't set his feet before he throws..but honestly on the short passes he should be able to connect on those..but he doesn't..nor has he since college.

I'm OK with DA staying or going,I do think that we need to be the one(for once) to get the better end of a deal concerning DA.Hopefully there's a team out there willing to overpay for his services,if that's the case,I see PS not hesitating to pull the trigger. A 1st and 3rd will do it for me.

Don't you know that DA is a finished product who can nenevr improve on anything?

I mean ..... come on .... haven't you been paying attention?


I still like the idea (and I forgot who said it first) that if the team is so good that it doesn't matter who the QB is, then we should trade both DA and Quinn .......... because ... after all, anyone could do what DA did.

Quote:

---

Sometimes I feel he ignores the coverage because he thinks he can get the ball into a small window..

---

that could very well be...its possible that as a rook (which imo he was) he's gotta learn what he can, and can't do....

Quote:

---

Other times I'm not sure what he's seeing..because you can see defenders either right there or sitting there waiting to jump the pass..

---

this is where you have to wonder if he is comfortable reading coverages...you are correct....there were times he would drop back, turn and fire it to a guy that was triple covered...sure he got rid of it quick, but another receiver was wide open somewhere else...it's gotta be reads, cause why risk a pick when there is a better option...smart qb play is better than forcing it....force it when you have to, not because you think you can....

Quote:

---

He doesn't set his feet before he throws..but honestly on the short passes he should be able to connect on those..but he doesn't..nor has he since college.

---

this is another thing i don't get....how can he throw it well long, but not short...makes no sense to me....gotta be easier to hit something closer, than farther no? who knows....

reading coverages has got to be his major problem....going deep one on one with edwards might be safer, than throwing into the middle of the field short....if its just his feet, than its fixable

Bah, i was hoping Vers came out by now ...

Quote:

---

I'm OK with DA staying or going,I do think that we need to be the one(for once) to get the better end of a deal concerning DA.Hopefully there's a team out there willing to overpay for his services,if that's the case,I see PS not hesitating to pull the trigger. A 1st and 3rd will do it for me.

---

i think that if we were offered that, then we just might take it...

i however don't think we tender him until we absolutely have too...

i think we really want to resign him to contract...he's still tradable, and we define the terms....i would hate for a team like balt, to poison pill the contract and get him...

if we are planning on moving forward to quinn, then we have to take what we can get for anderson....or tender him, and let him walk after next year, no way we take the cap hit and resign him to big bucks...not to be the backup...


if however we are considering giving da another year, then we definetly have to resign him to a contract if we can..if he pans out, then we have our qb for years to come.....if he doesn't, then we trade him as soon as its cap feasible to do so.... the goal is to get something for him, if we decide to move on to quinn...

now i know the cap ramifications would be significant, but i have to wonder what quinns contract says.....i thought it was said that if he starts in his first 2 years, that he gets escalators that make it a top 10 contract (in other words, a boat load of cash)

so why not start da for one more year, give a big chuck of that cash to the guy who has shown something on the field...he don't pan out....trade him, or keep him on the bench, and move to quinn...quinn will be playing out his contract without the escalators, untill he shows he's got it...then you redo his contract, when anderson's cap hit is off the books....

Quote:

---

Don't you know that DA is a finished product who can nenevr improve on anything?

I mean ..... come on .... haven't you been paying attention?

---

lol...what really blows my mind, is for years we've all been arguing, and we didn't have a qb..

now we're arguing cause we have two with upside and potential....

the only thing thats finished in this world is my size 32 jeans


cribbs at qb huh? got some promise

This guy is wrong on so many levels its PATHETIC .... kinda lke Y-town making fun of those that have enough football smarts to know that 98% of the QB's in the league given DA's circumstances could have had similiar or better OVERALL RESULTS ... but neither of their football ignorance is my problem ...

His DUMB ASS STATEMENTS ....

1. NOTHING is CEMENTED for next years starter ... NOTHING ...

to many things have to play out ....

A. Will we get an offer for DA that we will accept ... i doubt we will ... but WHO KNOWS how stupid some other team may be and who knows what Opie believes is good value for him ...

B. If he's back the bungle game will mean NOTHING ... there will be a QB comp starting at the first OTA ...

C. Re-signing Dorsey MEANS SQUAT ... DA and BQ are both still pups and will both benifit from having him around .. that tilts the scales ZERO ...

2. Quinn getting his chance MEANS DIDDLY ... weather he went 8 - 8 with a thread the needle TD on 4th and gaol from the 19 or weather he went 0 - 8 and had 5 picks dropped and none of the balls even touched one of our recievers the ORG. would take VIRTUALLY NOTHING out of that limited viewing of BQ ....

and if they did they should all be fired ... THAT MEANS NOTHING to folks with any sense at all ... and trust me .. no one enjoyed seeing him play OK more than I did ...

and he only had 2 drops ... where the hell was the 3rd drop ... first pass was tipped ... 2nd one hit Vickers hands only cause Vickers bent over backwords and got his hands by his ankles .. no way was that a drop ... the two drops and the fade he threw out of the end zone to brey ... this guys a MORON if he is calling Vickers pass a drop ...

3. It seems unlikely that both will start next season on the roster ... BULL CRAP ... I think theres prolly a 90% chance that both start next season on the roster ...

About the only thing this bozo said that was true is about the investment we made in BQ and the financial aspects of his contract ....

the part about RAC not resting his starters ... well that one could have gone either way ... depends on teh coaches philosophy ... with the fact we were coming off a bad game .. I have no probs with him playig the starters the entire way ... if he decided to sit them for a half that would have been fine also .. hes a MORON for being so down on RAC for this one ...

Overall hes as clueless as .... well U know ..

Quote:

---

kinda lke Y-town making fun of those that have enough football smarts to know that 98% of the QB's in the league given DA's circumstances could have had similiar or better OVERALL RESULTS ...

---

LMAO! Yeah .... 98% of QBs in the league huh? Wow ...... so we should look forward to like 50-60 TDs in Quinn's 1st season as a starter (whenever it comes) .... right? I mean, if Anderson came within 1 TD of the team's all time record ...... but 98% of QBs in the league are better .... then Quinn outta be able to kill his numbers.

Also ..... if 98% of all NFL QBs could do what Anderson did ... then we should trade both DA and Quinn for defensive help. I mean ..... if any bum could come in and put up 29 TDs ....... and have us in almost every game ....... then what do we need a good QB for? We could trade both QBs for quality defensive help, and plug Ken Dorsey in and win the Super Bowl. Hell ... we just signed him to an extension ..... so let's shore up the defense with the world of picks we'd get for Anderson and Quinn ..... then even is Dorsey doesn't work out, we can still plug one of the other 98% of NFL QBs in there. Come to think of it ... this offense is so good it practically runs itself ..... and we might not even need a QB at all.

Sometimes I read stuff that just makes me shake my had in utter disbeleif ..... and that 98% comment is one of those. Wow. Clueless? I think that some people throwing that word around need to take a little look in the mirror ...... because some of their statements make clueless look positively profound.

Don't waste your time man.

I'm not sure what everyone else saw from BQ in his debut but I saw a QB that was accurate with decent-to-good arm strength who actually checked down receivers rather than blatantly staring at them.

I love what DA did this season, 10 wins when I thought 5. I just think BQ is flat out better than DA.

You saw all that in 8 pass attempts, huh?

One thing that I noticed with those 8 pass attempts was BQ looked so much quicker than DA in every aspect of his game.

Quote:

---

Sometimes I read stuff that just makes me shake my had in utter disbeleif

---

I hear ya on that one bro .... appearantly U don't understand SIMILIAR OR BETTER ... I didn't say double his TD passes ... but thats what U choose to rant about ...

and MOST NFL QB'S would not have thrown any where near 18 picks with this O and schedule .. but nice of U to overlook that ...

I said different for a REASON .... DA made some GREAT throws that only a few QB's in the league can make ... VERY VERY FEW ... he also threw some only VERY VERY FEW would make in a NEGATIVE WAY ... either forcing them in ... just missing guys by 2 or 3 yards .... throwing into triple coverage ...

like i said ... I used the word DIFFERENT for a reason ... FACT IS that given time almsot all nfl QB's will PICK U APART ... appearanlty U don't agree with that even though its been WELL KNOWN FOR DECADES ...

DA could have wrote a book with all the time he had ...
DA had one of the top 3 pass blocking OL's in the league .. if NOT THE BEST ...
DA had KW and Brey making some MAD ASS CATCHES .... and yes Vers ... Brey in the middle of the season and at the end of the season had a case of the dropsies ... but he made way more GREAT CATCHES that bailed his ass out than he did drops ...
DA played an UNBELIEVABLY EASY SCHEDULE ...

Sorry Y-town I'm not going to just bury my head in the sand and point to his TD passes as some sign he did things most others couldn't ....

Quote:

---

? I think that some people throwing that word around need to take a little look in the mirror ...... because some of their statements make clueless look positively profound.

---

your right ... SOME ARE .. luckily for me .. I;m not one fo them ...

at the end of the day bro ... I have said the same thing and told the same story since day 1 .. when he was going good ... I said hes not near as good as most think ... pointed out his flaws and got ripped for it by guys like U ..

back then u were throwing all kinds of stats around ...

1. TD passes ...
2. QB rating ..
3. yards thrown for
4. points scored

now we go through a bad stretch with DA where he falls back to pretty much what i said he was and I still say the same things I did back then ..

on the other hand your now only hanging your hat on one stat ... TD's ... cause it seems like everything else CAME WAY BACK TO THE PACK ...

one of us has two legs to stand on ... the other one has lost an entire leg as is down to his knee on the other one ...

Quote:

---

Don't waste your time man.

---

Take the advice of one who's used to getting his butt whooped on pretty much every issue over the last 5 years by my far superior football knowledge ..

don't waste your time ... you'll just get emberrased like he has on a regular basis ...