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Flacco loved going to Cooper and Njoku... and in that order IIRC.


I would hope that we don't entertain any Njoku trade talks until the trade deadline. Having 2 solid TEs in Stefanski's system is a huge plus.

Amari is still a FA as far as I know. Do you think our FO would consider signing him because we have Joe and they worked well together or should we just try and develop our young guys?

I think Jeudy is supposed to be the new-and-improved Amari. I say we roll with that.

The way Cooper left, I don't see him wanting to coming back nor us want him back.

I agree wit everything you say about his departure. I doubt he would want to come back here. But then you ever know. A few million verses sitting on the couch may be the best option he has.

From a strictly business standpoint, with him being unsigned he may be a good WR you could sign at a low, bargain price.

From the practical side I feel they believe that was addressed with the signing of a younger WR with potential when they picked up Isaiah Bond. So IMO the Amari ship has sailed.

I don't see Cooper ever playing again honestly

If Cooper ever plays again it will be as cheap backup player, most Bills' fans feel they got shafted in that trade.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I wanted to rewatch the game to see how he played in it. I still haven’t watched it again but he was putrid in the first game. I know he had a lot of starts for Chicago, most at LT last year. Chicago had the worst oline in the league last year. Some of that can be blamed on their QB but they have been bad for years.

Like I said I think he is on the 53. He is signed for 1 year and I hope he works out. I’m just not convinced he can be good.

I was wrong! he just signed haha

Cooper wrote his ticket out of town when he did not sign up for the Watson crap show. He did great with Flacco, but the Browns organization would have to eat crow to sign him and that won’t happen.

11 Rookies. An aging OL. Significant questions at WR (although we might be lucky between Jeudy, Bond and Larvadain - Tillman is more than fine as a #3 and might even progress).

I have serious reservations and low expectations - guess we will see if the posters who keep indicating Berry is something of a genius is right or not.

we are certainly using this year as a development/wait and see year, adding the big splashes in the draft next year too

The New Orleans Saints named Spencer Rattler their starting quarterback for the 2025 NFL season, beating out second-round rookie Tyler Shough. So there is that in regards to QB's.

It's an odd-numbered Stefanski year so history would tell us that a surprisingly good year would be in the offing, right? Every few years when the vibe is right I make a big stupid bet on the Browns to win it all. I figure, if they ever do, it won't be a year when everyone expects them to be good. They always blow those. They'll come out of nowhere. So, $100 booked. If they win it all it's $35k. Pays almost 2 yrs of daughter's college. Gotta dream, right?

We'll see of course but I feel like it's very possible we win like 8-9 games and end in the middle of the AFC pack. Being realistic, playoffs are still a stretch, the AFC is just so crowded, but our defense alone will win games. I really wish I felt better about the OL and the running game. Joe will win us some, gift wrap some Int's for some losses. There's nothing new about him and his ceiling.

I'm eager to see what Gabriel becomes. He's the wild card IMO. I've had the irrational feeling since the day we drafted him and I pored over his game stuff that he's the guy. I felt the same way about Baker so... do with that what you will. But he's super steady and smart, seems like quick processing, tons of high level college experience, good ingredients. Just, ya know... short.

I wonder if his teammates call him snake. "The Ratt-Ler is shakin!"

I think there are far too many variables to rate the Browns ceiling. Injuries being at the top of the list. Most people, whether it turns out to be true or not, do not feel Flacco can play an entire season. If true, how will Gabrielle play if forced into service? How will injuries impact our opponents? The list just goes on and on of the many variables that could impact the Browns ceiling. Far be it from me to know an answer to that.

Before anyone talks playoffs or (gulp) Super Bowl, you have to do well in or win your division. The Browns clearly have the poorest offense within the division. Keep in mind, since Stefanski's arrival - the Browns have never had a top 12 Total Offense. Last season, the Browns bottomed out with the 28th rated Total Offense. On defense, the Browns are predicted 3rd in the division far behind Baltimore and Pittsburgh. Only Cincinnati is predicted to finish worst in total defense than the Browns. Now I agree that teams can surprise and most certainly the Browns are capable of that. Many variables could impact the Browns ceiling but oranges to oranges - it doesn't look good. As with every year - WE CAN HOPE THOUGH!

Anyone else worried about the lack of speed and experience at wr?

Same…. I have very low expectations this year…. Hoping we’re either bad enough to draft a top 5 QB or are able to see promise in one of our rookie QBs late in the year…. But don’t expect us to do much this year…

Maybe they’ll prove me wrong…

...What lack of speed?

I think Tillman is our "slowest" WR at 4.54.

Thrash at 4.46 might be next "slowest." Speed shouldn't be the problem.



I'm cautiously optimistic about our WRs. I don't know that they'll be amazing, but I think they can do what needs to be done, with upside for more.

It's not the worst place in the world to be - "it's the hope that kills ya" ... can't tell you (although we've all been there) how many seasons I've gone into thinking/believing we had a real shot. If we win games great. If we are competitive - great. I guess the most frustrating thing for me - as someone alluded to earlier - it's that down year when Stefanski might appear to get more out of the team than is expected. Obviously that's a good thing generally - but if it leads to another under performance when the expectations are raised we'll be right back where we were 5-6 seasons ago. I wasn't in favor of resigning Berry and KS - it's got to be time to poop or get off the pot. This is Berry's roster 100% - he's made this roster and the talent or lack of it is 100% on him at this point. KS has had good years and flat year. Is he going to step up and be a slightly above average HC - that's really all I need at this point. Fingers crossed.

Isn't it amazing how we as fans change our expectation levels.

Quote: Is he going to step up and be a slightly above average HC - that's really all I need at this point.

What we have is a 5-year Head Coach and GM in Berry with a losing record (40-44) regular season and (1-2) in the playoffs. Folks, that's an average of 8 wins per year. Is that an acceptable level for a 5-year term HC and GM? Keep in mind, as mgh888 stated: "This is Berry's roster 100% - he's made this roster and the talent or lack of it is 100% on him at this point."

The Browns must go 11-6 this season just to get to a plus .500 record for their 6-year term. Name me one HC/GM duo that has held on to their job after going 6-years with a losing record? Add into the fact that the Browns have been the highest average spend team in the NFL the last 4-years with negative results. Who holds on to their job with a resume like that?

So now, the expectation level is "a slightly above average HC" and GM. After last seasons (3-14), we are at a lower point than when these two (Berry and Stefanski) arrived. As with every year, I'm cautiously optimistic but like it's been said, "it's the hope that kills ya." However, IMO, we should except nothing but the best. If we accept slightly above average, then that's the highest plateau we'll every reach. When you accept mediocrity, the best you'll ever get is mediocrity. 40-44 is mediocre and yet we continue to accept that as we have the last 25 years. Excuses are like azzholes, everybody has one.

"Fingers Crossed" at this point too!

I'm not sure whose "expectations are raised" when your starter is Flacco with third and fifth round rookies as the back ups. It seems quite obvious they are planning on drafting what they hope will be their franchise QB in next years draft unless a miracle happens to dictate otherwise. The way they have set the stage for that seems overwhelmingly obvious.

I believe if anyone's feelings are raised going into this season that's a self inflicted issue.

I think there's a decent likelihood that we pick first... because we have the Jax pick.

Just two short years ago, this defense was #1 in the NFL in pass defense and #11 in rush defense. Injuries happened last year, but a healthier and younger version of 2023 means that it isn't a given they won't be ahead of either or both of the defenses in the AFC North.

Offense is where we are going to need some help from above, imho. As go the QBs, so to the offense as a whole. It sure would help if Judkins could get back on the field. I think there is a healthy gap between him and Ford in ability.

You express your optimism rather strangely.

Teams don't do great when their starting QB is hurt. (And the guy that we're still paying, that was supposed to be our starting QB, is still hurt.) It's not really a reflection on coaching. When teams do well after their starting QB is hurt, it would appear to be a better indicator of coaching ability. League voters seem to see it that way.

Expecting the best is greeting card BS parroted by entitled malcontents. Not every variable is controllable. Neither is every owner.

The "best" I hope for is this:

The "Best" one can do is roll with the punches, keep getting up, and put in the work. Berry and Stefanski seem to do so.

Unrealistic expectations only set you up for disappointment. Expecting the best in everything is unrealistic.

It's not the having hope that kills you, it's the losing it. Hard to keep hope when you're hoping for the unattainable.

I think that too has its variables. It would probably not be as difficult to use those two draft picks to trade up to #1 with a team that feels they are not desperate for a QB. A team that was playing a rookie such as Tennessee who sees their weakness lies at other positions. Or even a team that has two or three QB's in this draft rated as being pretty much equal.

It may also not be required for the Browns to move up to #1 if they see more than one QB as being pretty much equal.

As an example I don't think in this past draft that even those two first round picks would have moved the needle in order for Tennessee to give up their #1 pick. If Tennessee has the #1 pick in the 2025 draft I think it would.

Good article on Ced , from Tom Withers, a long-time Browns writer:


BEREA — All the potential and promise is still right in front of Cedric Tillman. Within his reach.
The Browns believe in the lanky wide receiver, who after two frustrating, disappointing seasons is ready to meet expectations — and more.
“It’s time to step up,” he said following practice Thursday.
Desperate to find a No. 2 receiver to complement Jerry Jeudy, the Browns are hoping the time is now for Tillman, who was playing by far the best ball of his young career in 2024 — 26 catches for 330 yards in five games — when he suffered a concussion against Pittsburgh on Nov. 21.
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He missed the last six games and Tillman’s reputation took a blow as outsiders began to wonder if the 2023 third-round pick from Tennessee would be thrown on the heap of other Browns draft busts.
But while the team headed into the offseason knowing depth was a glaring need and major issue at receiver, the Browns didn’t pursue any big names in free agency. Tillman took that as a positive sign, a vote of confidence.
“Of course, that feels good,” the soft-spoken 25-year-old said, offering a slight smile. “But I understand this is a business. Things can change from today to tomorrow, so I’m always going to be motivated. But obviously it did feel good, but I’ve got to go out there and show people what I can do.”
There have been flashes. Just not enough.
Tillman had a nondescript rookie season. He barely got on the field in the first four games, was inactive for the next three and finished with 21 catches for 224 yards and zero touchdowns.
Last season began slowly as well before Tillman turned into one of Jameis Winston’s top targets after the backup quarterback took over when Deshaun Watson went down with an Achilles tendon injury. Winston to Tillman became one of the few sweet spots for the Browns in an otherwise sour season.
He followed an eight-catch game for 81 yards against Cincinnati with seven catches for 99 yards and two TDs in a win over Baltimore. This was the Tillman the Browns had been waiting for, but unfortunately his strong stretch ended three games later when he got drilled after a 4-yard catch in the snow against the Steelers.
It’s clear that Tillman doesn’t like reflecting much on what might have been the past two years. There’s no changing his past. And while his confidence grew during his five-game span, he was left mostly unfulfilled.
“It was more frustrating because I was ready to take off,” said Tillman, who recently missed a few days with a right thumb injury. “Last year is last year. New year this year.”
New quarterback, too. Well, a familiar one as 40-year-old Joe Flacco begins his second stint as Cleveland’s starting QB. Tillman feels comfortable with Flacco and hopes they can continue what they began in 2023.
“He was here two years ago, so we got a little chemistry back then,” Tillman said. “But obviously having OTAs and having camp now I feel like (it) has only developed more. … He gives a big confidence. Obviously he’s won a Super Bowl, a 20-year vet now, so he’s played the game for a long time.
“He’s seen every look you can throw at him. So he’s cool. He’s composed. So it gives us confidence.”
Tillman isn’t lacking in that department, either.
At 6-foot-3, 215 pounds, he looks the part. His size gives him a distinct advantage over shorter defensive backs, and that discrepancy is something the Browns are hoping to exploit. Tillman’s shown growth in running routes, he’s got soft, sure hands when the ball comes his way and he’s shown a willingness to block.
“It don’t feel bad smacking people and stuff like that,” he said with a chuckle.
Tillman sidestepped making any predictions about what he can accomplish this season. He’s been through enough in his first two seasons in Cleveland to know that things can change quickly, without warning.
He acknowledged there were some wide-eyed moments to overcome as a rookie, but Tillman feels the path traveled has toughened him.
“I’ll be lying if I say I don’t get a little nervous here and there,” he said. “But obviously it being the third year now, I’m comfortable with the offense, the coaches, the speed. I’m ready to go.
“I have goals. I ain’t going to say them publicly. I’ll keep it to myself. I’m focused on winning and if that’s 1,000 yards, 500 yards, regardless. That’s what my focus is on — winning.”
There’s no reason to make excuses. There’s nothing to hold him back. Tillman feels it’s time for him to break out.
“I’ve just got to be healthy,” he said. “If I’m healthy, I know what I can do.”

He’s a guy I’ve been waiting to see make an impact, ever since we drafted him. He was starting to come on in his 2nd year but the concussion derailed that in 2024.

He flashed as a rookie, I like his size and his hands.

""The "Best" one can do is roll with the punches, keep getting up, and put in the work. Berry and Stefanski seem to do so.

Unrealistic expectations only set you up for disappointment. Expecting the best in everything is unrealistic.

It's not the having hope that kills you, it's the losing it.""

Yes - that's the best you can hope for on any given Sunday. But to judge KS and Berry wouldn't one look at the entirity of their Browns career and production? Is it not fair to say this roster is 10% Berry's roster and if it lacks talent, or lacks depth, if we are preparing to throw a season away in search of a very high draft pick and a franchise QB (as someone suggested) ... is that not releavant? If we play below the sum of our parts every other year is that not a factor in judging KS in addition to putting in the work? I mean after Freddy Kitchens it was fabulous to hear a coherent and inteligent HC talk - that lasted a while. I want a bit more now. Results consistency etc -- and while I might want a playoff spot I have stated above - merely seeing slightly above average NFL abilities seems like a reasonable expectation? Or are your expectations lower?

...Yes, the roster is at least 10% Berry's....

Every roster has places they wish they had better depth and talent. Every team isn't guaranteed the same amount of talent. There isn't the same amount of talent available for every team at every position. There are only so many players at certain levels at certain positions. I don't think this roster lacks depth or talent. I think this is the most talented roster we've had top to bottom in a long time. Do I wish we had a better QB than Flacco? Of course. Do I wish Emerson hadn't gotten hurt? Of course. But we've got some talent. DL is rolling pretty deep. I like our OL depth much more than usual. I mean Cole Strange is sitting on the practice squad. Even at WR, Corley on the practice squad was a guy I liked in his draft. Those guys are talented in WR room. Proven? No, but they have the tools to cause problems for defenses.

QB is the biggest part. When the biggest part goes bad for reasons outside your control, that's not a reflection on a coach's ability. I think you confuse abilities and results. A hall of fame caliber RB could look pedestrian behind a bad OL. "Bad"/broken QBs make whole teams look bad. Great QBs don't grow on trees. I'd say You can't just magically plug one in off the couch mid-season, but somehow Stefanski made that work with Flacco. That's not normal. I'm a little worried Flacco recapturing the magic is the expectation of some people. There are several reasons that might not happen or might not last. Really don't like the Parsons trade's potential impact on those chances.

I "expect" good "process." I don't expect good results. Hopefully the two go together. Unfortunately, they don't have to. One can control the work one puts in. One can't control the results one gets. Szmyt happens.

Unfortunately for the Browns, Jimmy had to learn (might still have to learn) that in the NFL throwing more money at problems isn't an available strategy past a certain point. Once you fully guarantee a contract, you've got to live with it. That anchor is still handicapping the team and the cloud still casts a rather large shadow, so it's borderline amazing the roster is as good as it is and the vibes inside the team seem rather positive.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the season. I think it could go well. However, I also see plenty of things that could go wrong. I don't expect it to go either way. I'm just going to try to enjoy the ride.

Given the FA market and QB draft class last year, what better solution could you have provided at finding a long term answer to the QB position?

See that's the thing. I don't think anyone likes the situation we're in as it pertains to the QB position. And I think the reason we happen to be there is the entire watson debacle. And that's certainly on Berry and the owner. People can say, "But everyone including Stefanski was all in on signing watson." And that's fine to say but other than PR statements nobody has any way to know if that's true. Here's what we do know. Berry is the GM. It's he who is the final decision maker. I understand in business those at the top love to pass the buck down the ladder but t isn't the people who work for them that make those decisions. I do find it odd when the fans do that same thing. Haslam is the only person who has to approve of that decision and he does that when he agrees to sign the checks. If he doesn't agree to sign the check no deal gets done.

We can rehash that until our faces turn blue but that's the situation we're in. So what silver bullet did you see out there at the end of last season that would have been a better solution to the long term QB situation than loading up to get one in next years draft?

Now keep in mind the salary cap situation. Keep in mind they didn't just have 60 or 80 million a year to throw at a retread. Those are all factors they were dealing with. I understand the frustration. I'm frustrated myself. I don't think anyone was more upset than I was when they signed watson. Sadly when I hate being right it sometimes happens that I am. So it is with the watson situation.

I get that the watson situation was of their own doing. But that ship sailed some time ago. So for those upset with the QB situation. For those expecting "more" this season. How would you have made it better during the off season than they did? Not 20/20 hind sight. But the situation at hand during the last off season.

As much as it pains me to say it, I don't think there was a better approach than the approach they chose to take.

The Watson debacle is an obstacle for sure. But if i remember, didnt Berry start off life in his position with extra picks? So overall maybe we've lost one 1st rounder ? .... Either way and whether we gave up more for DW or not ... The point is that looking at just this off season's choices is, well, missing the point. Berry has been in place long enough that this entire roster is of his making ... I agree woth Bull, there are parts I like. DL, our rookie ILB. There's some positions where theres a chance we'll be good. But where I disagree with Bull and maybe yourself, of course ALL teams have strengths and weaknesses. Teams dont have or need studs at every position. But in my opinion, our roster is way below average compared to other NFL teams. I'm not throwing my toys off the pram just stating what I see. I'm not overly pessimistic and as said earlier, no expectations.

This is the part I focused on. I can't say I disagree with you in totality.......


Neither Stefanski nor Berry had ever held their respective positions in the NFL before. I believe realistic expectations should have presumed there would be some bumps and bruises along the way. With that in mind I won't say whether I think having both a rookie HC and a rookie GM at the same time was a smart move on the part of Haslam, but that's the factual situation we were in at the time. Speaking for myself I wasn't expecting to get blood out of a turnip. I expected some growing pains. That was the situation going into with this FO and coaching staff. Start from zero and work your way up from there. I believe some of those early years mistakes should have been expected The watson debacle I won't excuse.

The issue is, you don't have a QB until you have a QB. We see teams every year that set themselves up to draft a top rated QB. This isn't a novel situation. For some it solves the bulk of the issues and for some it does not. I think we will have to address the OL moving into future seasons for sure. Depending on the outcome of the Judkins situation we may or may not be set at RB. The D is pretty stout.

But otherwise as you stated, you don't need studs at every position but if the OL and QB positions moving forward pan out it would make it a pretty strong roster overall. Yes I understand there are other positions that would still have needs but that's a situation every team faces.

I'm in wait and see mode and I think my post above pretty much explains why.

Bottom line is Stefanski and Berry were hamstrung from previous GM and the miss of not selecting Josh Allen as QB in 2018 draft. If a true franchise QB was selected the Browns would be like the Bills in 2025 preparing to attempt to reach and win a super bowl. 2018 draft was a miss as far as drafting a true franchise QB. Then this GM/Coach/Owner tried to buy a franchise QB when one came available. That did not work out due to what? Injury? Loss of talent? Too many off the field issues? All the above? etc... So now they will try again next draft to right that wrong from 2018. They have right now 2 chances. That has made this year's college football season even much more exciting than normal. Tomorrow Clemson QB Cade Klubnik is playing against LSU QB Garrett Nussmeier. That game easily could have next year's Browns QB playing in that game. Then there is Penn State QB Drew Allar, South Carolina's LaNorris Sellers. Maybe our future franchise QB is playing Ohio tomorrow Arch Manning if he comes out. Either way one of the names listed should be our starter next year let's hope this staff or the staff that replaces this staff picks the Josh Allan instead of a head case.