DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Losing Culture

The last year Baker played here healthy Stefanski and Baker led the Browns to the playoffs. It seems they worked together pretty well.

Asking for the logic you used to arrive at your opinion isn't trying to deny you a right to your opinion. I'm not at all sure where you got that from. I suppose you have never met people with egos that they had to learn their lesson the hard way and nothing or nobody could change them until they did. Blaming Stefanski for Baker's character flaws is not attractive.

I thought it was more of a working theory that had Berry as the one that initially started up the idea of trading for Watson... but it was Haslam that took the driver seat shortly after (specifically when Watson initially turned us down and we came back with the contract).

Sounds like a very credible theory. But like Tyson said: "theories are like buttholes, everybody has one until they get punched in the face." 🤪

I think this is one of those unknowable questions. Until the book comes out in 20 years.

My completely unfounded hunches:

Berry has very strong player analysis and selection skills but it seems like he doesn't give much attention to the importance of personalities, the psychology of the team and the fanbase, the personal failings of the player off the field and how that might effect the players and the team on the field. It's pretty typical of super smart over-achievers; they get myopically focused on numbers and the pieces-parts of the product and go blind to all the other environmental and personal vagaries that are involved that can have a major effect on how the product performs. They, being super logical and not driven by emotion, struggle to understand why those things matter to anyone else and minimize their potential effects. He is a guy that got a bachelors in economics and a masters in computer science in 3 years total at Harvard. Safe to say he's a machine. Machines struggle to understand the non-machine stuff. I don't know, I could be wrong of course but that narrative seems to fit his decision making since he's been in Cleveland.

And, Haslam has impulse control problems coupled with poor football judgement. I've known many a wealthy person who is highly susceptible to stories that makes them look like a magical deal maker, the guy that "just made it happen", that could see the diamonds where others saw only coal, or was guided to fortune by angels reserved for the special. When I heard that homeless guy/ Manziel story my first thought was oh no, the magical rich guy story, the worst of them all! They become enamored with some move and how decisive and visionary it will make them look. They listen to the yes's, they discount the no's, and sometimes the no's even just add to their vision of how plucky they'll look in the end when they're victorious. (For those playing at home, that's exactly how you sell crap to super rich people). Truth is, they often DID get to where they are by believing and acting on their stories, they dial out the analysis paralysis and just jump. They have a few successes and they just keep jumping. Survivorship bias means you only hear about the ones that stuck enough landings, even if their success was the result of luck and circumstances as much as their special skills. But that pluck is also often their undoing if they don't develop some self-awareness and guard rails. You might for instance buy a football team and hard charge into a series of worst decisions even made in the history of the sport, lol. Again, I don't know, could be totally wrong, but again, seems to match the contours of his actions since he's been in Cleveland.

If you want to be a dynasty franchise, you have to perform, not think, outside the box.

If you are doing what other teams are doing, you are average.

Everyone criticizes this front office and coaching staff for not doing what other teams are doing.

If you are not the lead horse, the view never changes.

I want a team that is trying to do something different and be the innovator.

Yes, you may make many mistakes, but eventually, if you persevere long enough, you will succeed.

I don't disagree Bugs ... but a famous and one of my favourite quotes attributed to Winston Churchill - However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. For me the results indicate that either the plan or the people executing the plan are failing at an epic rate. jmo

Oh I Opined alright. I said a few times that it was a GROUP decision. But some folks just glaze over that because it doesn't fit their agenda.

He had to. Everything was in place except to get Watson on board. Only the owner can sweeten the pot. That said, I don't think Haslam gave the directive to Berry to go sign Watson.

I've missed it or just got senile and forgotten ... Thanks. While I am not high on the FO - I do believe they are united so being a group thing makes sense to me.

I have no doubt that you know more about these things than I...that said, group decision and group idea-creation are two different things. Someone started the ball rolling. I don't even have a guess as to who.

They all agreed to the most colossal front office blunder since...hell I dunno...but someone pitched the idea to the others.

SO IT WAS DEPO's FAULT !!
I jest....

I think the main sticking point is just how much say did Stefanski have in the decision and all of the events that concluded with the signing of watson. I'm sure that he told them he could win with watson and certainly had no objections to them signing him. When looking at the film it would certainly appear a HC would believe they could win with him. But some seem to indicate that Stefanski's role went much deeper than that.

To me it just doesn't make sense that he was involved in how much draft capital to give up, how much to offer him in a contract or whether to back up the Brinks truck to make that second offer. That just sounds like decisions made by those whose primary jobs it is to make decisions in that part of the process.

Berry and Stefanski must be held accountable for their performance. You are who your record says you are. Win and you get another year. Lose and you need to be replaced. There is a coach on this roster getting it done right now. Jim Schwartz would be a perfect replacement. He can bring stability to the only side of the ball that needs to keep stability. If this coach cannot get it done and if this GM could not build a team that could get it done in 6 years I do not see why 7, 8m or 9 years woill make any difference. I don't like their chances they benched their only remaining experienced QB. Traded away the other. Now they have a reached for QB leading the team and more than likely by Thanksgiving the QB that fell further than any QB in draft history. Nice job!!!

So you think a new GM would keep the current coaching staff? That almost never happens. If Berry is fired the entire coaching staff will be gone too including Schwartz. Berry is the man who built this roster and you yourself said they should both be held accountable.

Yes. If this team is drafting in the top 5 again this season both have to go. Scwartz has been around a long time. I think they can find a GM that has worked with hiom and can move forward. Has to be better than Berry and Stefanski. They are who their record says they are.

No proven GM will keep the current coaching staff. If you want another experiment with an unproven GM be my guest. But if that's what you are proposing then look in the mirror and point the finger at yourself when it fails. Highly qualified GM's do not take the job with who is on their staff being dictated to them. They don't need to. If you make hiring a new GM contingent on them accepting the HC you demand you severely limited yourself from top quality candidates. That's a recipe for disaster.

If that is a recipe for disaster what do you call 3-14 followed up by a 1-3 start?

According to some folks it must have been the devil. The fact is it was a group decision and their is plenty of blame to go around from Jimmy, to Berry, Kevin, our QB coach, offensive cordinator, scouts, JW, Paul, Catherine Hickman, Bob Quinn, Chris Polian, Jimmy Raye III, Callum Mahoney, Glenn Cook, Ken Kovash, and a slew of others. It's a team effort, yet some folks just want to point the finger at one person and blame away. The decision to trade for Watson was indeed a terrible trade but just like any good moves the Browns have made are the work of the TEAM, so are the bad moves. Like our front office or hate this front office that's an opinion in my mind and everybody is entitled to their own opinion. What I try to do is just make sure the facts being talked about are correct.

LIke I said a TEAM effort.

Unless Schwartz is the guy pegged as the next head coach.

I am not sure where things stand with the Rooney rule anymore. Seems a bit outdated to me. I am not sure it is needed any longer.

If a team currently has a coach on staff they know they are going to hire it makes no sense to go through several useless interviews.

I had the exact same thought and indeed - I'd be more than happy with that move. No idea what he would keep in place or what he would want to change - but he'd sure have the inside track on knowing what works and doesn't.

I see what you did there ... He's Depo to everyone else ... 'Paul' to you 😁

FWIW, we have to start at the top.

As nice a guy and as a Respected business man, Al Lerner hired more for show than for GO. Policy wanted to fire Chris Palmer and Lerner reportedly wanted to keep him. Should have kept him.

Randy had no clue. That's as simple as it gets.

Now Haslams, Firing Chud after his first year.,. YIKES..... The entire Watson situation. Double Yikes. Out of that, look who became an all pro....... Mayfield. Now he wants a new Stadium,,,,,And he wants us to pay for it.

That's just some of the ownership problems.

For me, it starts at the TOP.

What stupid play calling before they lost the leed.
Ether all runs or all passes.

Stefanski has to go. Gabriel did not play bad. He did not lose the game. He did not win it either but overall he was serviceable today and Stefanski's offense still cannot score over 17 pts. His system simply is not or does not work.

Dillon Gabriel played under the circumstances really well. Not spectacular but good enough to give us a chance to win. I have been critical and I still think he’s undersized but let him get the time to prove us doubters wrong. He deserves it.

Kevin Stefanski on the other hand….

Let’s be honest. This’s who he is.

He knows football, he can lead players and with enough talents around him the Browns are a decent second or third tier team.
But he’s not a winner. He’s not the HC who on a regular basis wins winnable games. He’s not the HC who turn water into wine or transform mediocre in to good , good in to great or great in to spectacular. That’s not Kevis Stefanski. Results don’t lie.

With enough talent, a few world class and a top ten talent QB like we had in 2020 the Browns can reach the later stages of the playoffs.
That’s Stefanski’s ceiling. Pair him with an average underachieving GM who can’t build a decent roster and the 2025 season is his level.

Those who advocating for him and Berry to stay got what they wanted now.
Be satisfied now and enjoy the results.

Stefanski should have been fired in 2021. He was terrible then, he is even worse now. Not sure who was responsible for the Watson debacle, but losing Baker set the Browns back so many years.

Stefanski and Berry should not have anything to do with 2026. They need to go ASAP. I do not see what the moron Haslam sees in these two.

Pfm, here in Cape Coral Tampa is our home team. I’m watching Baker pick Seattle defense to pieces. Something like 25 for 28, 300 yds and 1 tds. And our leadership gave him away for 6 dirty jock straps. They should be fired for that alone.

Another late Q4 winning drive by Mayfield. His fourth if I’m not mistaken.
Must feel great to be a Buccaneer when they have a QB who produce whenever the game is on the line.

Clutch!

This is from the post game thread. I just thought that it exemplified the difference between the Browns under KS and a winning team culture ... I don't see behind the curtains. Maybe KS is a hard ass disciplinarian who instills a better attitude in players when they transgress??? But it does not seem like it. Camp Cupcake - the vanilla 'i must do better' press releases .. hell we had a "star" WR on the team who didn't know the play book and seemed to line up pre-snap in the wrong place multiple times in multiple games ... and there was apparently no apparent accountability.

I root for Baker as much as anyone. But your comment is toxic and trolling and has zero relevence to the Browns today.

And Mike Vrabel is winning in New England, just like most of us knew he would. He worked for us last year, but we didn’t offer him the head coaching job because we were led told about how revered Kevin Stefanski is and how he would have a new job before he left the building.

What’s even more toxic is to keep incompetence, keep on losing winnable games, what’s the record now in our last year, 4-20 or something?. Stefansky and Berry did everything in their power to get rid of Baker and since he got healthy he’s elite qb.

Do you consider our HC as an elite (top 10) HC?
Do you consider our GM as an elite GM?

Every time I see Baker succeed and Stefanski fail, and yes it was a HC loss, it makes me irritated. I want the Browns to succeed too but with incompetence at the top it will probably never happen.

I also have a very soft heart for Baker because I think he was unfairly treated . My reaction is human. My and others complaints come frustration .We’re rational because we react to what we see.

But with that said I partly agree with your point. My disappointment takes the best out of me. I apologize for that but you also must realize that as long the Browns continuing underperform to the extent we see now the critic will increase.

Stefanski is a decent HC but unfortunately his time will never come in Cleveland.

Sitting here in the cheap seats as an old man now , I feel like Stafanski failed Baker as a QB and as a person ( young man trying to fine his way in the world ) .. The disconnect seemed obvious to me .. If you are looking for guidance and leadership , forget Haslam .

My point, which seemed to sail right over your head is, you claim we have a disaster now and your scenario promotes the Browns follow it up with yet another disaster. If you want to fix it at least present a scenario that gives the strong possibility it will fix it and not yet another failed remedy.

I don't think KS should be here as HC - I've felt that a long time but hoped for the best. But posting Baker stats when he has a good game - relating it to nothing else - is just trolling for the sake of trolling. Baker left 3 years ago, I'll root for him his entire career - but what he does for TB or any other team isn't relevent each and every week. Not unless you are trolling. Baker's acheivements and performance were mentioned in the game day thread 'Other Games' - they are more than relevant there. jmo .. you do you.

The issue with that is that the "coaching staff" would have been fired and you would be trying to land a new GM. Can you think of a time when a new GM was hired that the owner mandated who his HC would be other than an interim GM? I mean nobody is above the GM accept the owner. So wouldn't this just be another case of Haslam overriding the football people? And if you can think of or find such an example, how did that work out? Whether you "feel" they need the Rooney rule or not it still exists. But my point is that what some are suggesting is that you try to hire a new GM mandating he has no say in his HC. That as it pertains to his ability to function as a GM by assembling his own coaching staff he has none.

You may find a person that looks good on paper who has never been an NFL GM before willing to accept that. I'm sure you could. Someone who is just starving for a shot at that position. A rookie NFL GM. But that's the same formula that got us to where we are now. And even Berry got to pick his own HC. I'm, not saying that couldn't work out but it seems like that same rerun of the movie we're watching now.

I just feel that when you try to hire a GM with the caveat' that he has no say in who his HC is you just severely limited the most and best qualified candidates for the job because they won't want it. I mean if the owner wants to handcuff your ability to name your own HC at he very beginning of your professional relationship, what kind of message does that send as to how things will work out moving forward?

To build a winning culture - elementary wise - you must win games. According to Statmuse: Since 1999, the Browns have a regular season record of 142-282-1 including this year's games. That's a 0.335 winning percentage. Currently, the Browns have the lowest win pct. in the NFL since 1999. The next lowest team is the Las Vegas Raiders who are 170-255 at 0.400 since 1999. That's 28-win games better than the Browns. Since Stefanski and Berry have been in charge, the Browns have a regular season record of 41-48-0 record including 2025. That's a win percentage of 0.461 currently. With 25% of the 2025 season in the books, if the Browns continue at their current pace, they'll post a 4-13 projected record only one game better than 2024.

Since 1999, the Browns have had only 1 HC/Intermin to post a winning record before leaving the Browns. In 2018, Gregg Williams took over for a fired HC Hue Jackson and led the Browns to a 5-3 record over their final 8 games giving Williams a 0.625 winning percentage. With a 0.625 winning percentage in eight games as Head Coach, he was the first and only head coach since Marty Schottenheimer in 1988 to leave Cleveland with a winning record as Head Coach.

Though it's true that Stefanski possesses the second highest winning percentage for the Browns since 1999, he does not hold a regular season winning record. Stefanski entered the 2025 season with a 40-44 record for a winning pct of 0.476. At his current pace, Stefanski will finish the season at 44-57 a 6-year regular season record with a 0.436 winning pct. That's just slightly ahead of #3 Butch Davis who coached the Browns threes season and 11 games to a 24-35 record for a 0.407 winning pct with 1 playoff appearance. No Browns HC since 1999 has completed 4 seasons with the Browns as HC until Stefanski.

The Browns have had 12 HC's/Intermin since 1999, 27 years. Only Williams has posted a winning record during that timeframe for his career as HC of the Browns. It's past time for the Browns move on from Berry and Stefanski and hire a winning HC and GM for a change. After 27 years, maybe the Browns can finally get it right!

Literally, the Cleveland Browns. The Browns hired Kevin Stefanski and then later hired Andrew Berry. Also, the GM is not the HC's boss in Cleveland. They both report directly to Haslam.