I never thought I'd say this but I'm just done with it. They have completely lost my interest. I don't care any more. This constant acceptance of losing and then just making it worse has taken it's toll. I have to hand it to all you guys who manage to hang in there. It would be nice to see the team win some games once in a while. I don't know how they can manage to even market the team in the face of this kind of garbage play.
I'm off now for a badly needed break from the NFL.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
So as I asked in yet another post. When you find such an example, how did that work out? Are you trying to suggest that was a success and we should repeat that process?
They both report to Haslam but the GM is the boss of the HC. There's a difference.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I don't see behind the curtains. Maybe KS is a hard ass disciplinarian who instills a better attitude in players when they transgress??? But it does not seem like it. Camp Cupcake - the vanilla 'i must do better' press releases .. hell we had a "star" WR on the team who didn't know the play book and seemed to line up pre-snap in the wrong place multiple times in multiple games ... and there was apparently no apparent accountability.
Just my feeling/opinion, but it seems to me that KS is moving away from this. They had anti-Camp Cupcake this year, and I don't know why but it seems like he's becoming less of a pushover with certain players.
He has a ways to go in terms of re-establishing himself as someone that won't let players run wild.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
So as I asked in yet another post. When you find such an example, how did that work out? Are you trying to suggest that was a success and we should repeat that process?
I'm not suggesting anything. You asked for an example. I cited one.
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
They both report to Haslam but the GM is the boss of the HC. There's a difference.
This is incorrect and there is no proof you can present to demonstrate that Berry has authority over Stefanski. I know others have pointed this out to you before.
So as I asked in yet another post. When you find such an example, how did that work out? Are you trying to suggest that was a success and we should repeat that process?
I'm not suggesting anything. You asked for an example. I cited one.
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
They both report to Haslam but the GM is the boss of the HC. There's a difference.
This is incorrect and there is no proof you can present to demonstrate that Berry has authority over Stefanski. I know others have pointed this out to you before.
Here is a portion of my response to Peen..............
Quote
The issue with that is that the "coaching staff" would have been fired and you would be trying to land a new GM. Can you think of a time when a new GM was hired that the owner mandated who his HC would be other than an interim GM? I mean nobody is above the GM accept the owner. So wouldn't this just be another case of Haslam overriding the football people? And if you can think of or find such an example, how did that work out?
You did cite one. One that according to most turned out miserably. Thanks.
And there is no proof that the GM isn't the boss over the HC as it is with every team in the NFL. The fact they both report to Haslam on their specific duties is not proof of that. I'm sure others have pointed that out to you. If they haven't they should have.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
You did cite one. One that according to most turned out miserably. Thanks.
You're welcome!
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
And there is no proof that the GM isn't the boss over the HC as it is with every team in the NFL. The fact they both report to Haslam on their specific duties is not proof of that. I'm sure others have pointed that out to you. If they haven't they should have.
You could not find the evidence to support your claim could you? I eagerly await anyone to show evidence that Andrew Berry is Stefanski's boss.
In the NFL, the general manager (GM) is not always strictly the "boss" over the head coach (HC); the hierarchy varies by team and organizational structure. Generally, the GM oversees football operations, including player personnel decisions like drafts, trades, and contracts, and typically leads the search for a new head coach. However, the owner of the team has the ultimate authority and makes the final decision on hiring or firing both the GM and HC. The relationship and power balance between the GM and HC can vary widely depending on contracts and ownership style.
Some teams have GMs with more control over football decisions, while others have head coaches with significant power, sometimes even more control than the GM. For example, a head coach with a strong contract and authority may have the final say on personnel, even over the GM's preferences. There are also cases like the Dallas Cowboys where the owner, Jerry Jones, acts as both owner and GM, making all decisions directly, including over the head coach.
Successful franchises tend to have strong collaboration and alignment between the GM and HC, even if one is officially higher in the hierarchy. Ultimately, the owner holds the top authority in the NFL team structure, and there is no uniform rule that the GM is always the boss over the HC—it depends on the team's internal dynamics and contracts.
what about the cleveland browns?
For the Cleveland Browns in 2025, the general manager Andrew Berry and head coach Kevin Stefanski have a notably cooperative relationship. Both were retained after a disappointing 3-14 season in 2024, with the Browns' ownership signaling a "fresh start" for the duo. They share responsibility for team decisions and outcomes, including significant moves like the controversial Deshaun Watson trade, which also involved the owners.
The Browns ownership, led by Jimmy and Dee Haslam, ultimately holds the top authority and expects Berry and Stefanski to work closely and deliver results. While Berry as GM oversees football operations including personnel decisions, Stefanski as head coach leads the coaching staff and game-day strategies. The Browns' situation reflects a balance of power where neither is strictly above the other, but both are accountable and expected to be aligned to improve the team's performance. The owners play a decisive role if changes are needed at either position.
Successful franchises tend to have strong collaboration and alignment between the GM and HC, even if one is officially higher in the hierarchy.
Quote
both are accountable and expected to be aligned to improve the team's performance.
Up until the point they disagree on something. Then common sense would dictate the final decision would be left up to the person who is officially higher in the hierarchy.
People need to stop pretending that every decision made in the organization is some Kumbaya moment. That only exists in fantasy land.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
No, Kevin Stefanski does not report to Andrew Berry; both the head coach and the general manager report directly to the Cleveland Browns' ownership, led by Jimmy Haslam, forming a collaborative partnership under the owner's oversight. Cleveland Browns' Organizational Structure Collaborative Partnership: Stefanski and Berry operate as a collaborative unit, a partnership where they work together to lead the organization. Direct to Ownership: Neither the head coach nor the general manager reports to the other; instead, they both report directly to the Browns' ownership group, headed by Jimmy Haslam. Owner Oversight: Jimmy Haslam provides the direct oversight and direction for the entire organization, and he is the ultimate authority for making decisions regarding both the general manager and the head coach
I'm not sure there's really anything you can point to that would indicate Berry has any sort of say/leverage over Stefanski. -Both KS and AB had their contracts extended at the same time and for the same duration. -Stefanski was hired first and then was on the search team that got us Berry. -Haslam has both of them reporting to him, and what we know of Haslam makes it highly unlikely that he's ceding any sort of authority to someone reporting to him.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
The Browns ownership, led by Jimmy and Dee Haslam, ultimately holds the top authority and expects Berry and Stefanski to work closely and deliver results. While Berry as GM oversees football operations including personnel decisions, Stefanski as head coach leads the coaching staff and game-day strategies. The Browns' situation reflects a balance of power where neither is strictly above the other, but both are accountable and expected to be aligned to improve the team's performance. The owners play a decisive role if changes are needed at either position.
Bingo!
And from Haslam's own mouth...
"We are going to hire the coach first and then we will do the GM search. The coach will be involved in that process but will not have the final say. [The head coach] will not have the final say but will be heavily involved in that process. In you all's terms, we will not have an 'arranged marriage.' Let me just continue on because I think I know what you are going to ask, the coach and the GM will report to ownership as equals and obviously married up with each other."
On why the Browns have determined this organizational structure is best, given the team has had various structures in the past:
"Let's face it, we are running it the hard way, right? I think everybody talks a lot about structure – and I think structure is important – but I think far more important are these two things: getting the right people and making sure they are aligned. If you looked at the other 31 teams, there are all kinds of different structures, but if you look at the successful organizations that are consistently in the playoffs year after year, there is alignment within the organization and they have the right people in the right place – coach and GM. That is what we are focusing on tremendously, and that alignment is something that is really, really important. It sound easy, but it is not."
Why, when you also have the org structure, the timeline of the hires and extensions?
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
You do realize what was posted is nothing more than the PR statements of the Browns, right? I mean if that's the story people want to buy into more power to them. I also remember when big tobacco said their products were not harmful. I'm not going to belabor the point but if PR statements are the measuring stick more power to you.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I don't think KS should be here as HC - I've felt that a long time but hoped for the best. But posting Baker stats when he has a good game - relating it to nothing else - is just trolling for the sake of trolling. Baker left 3 years ago, I'll root for him his entire career - but what he does for TB or any other team isn't relevent each and every week. Not unless you are trolling. Baker's acheivements and performance were mentioned in the game day thread 'Other Games' - they are more than relevant there. jmo .. you do you.
I need to be humble and take your point a with me. Of course you’re right.
I understand people's frustration with losing. The immediate reaction is fire people. Life in the NFL.
However, if Haslam was going to do that I think he would have done it after this past season.
Haslam knows the circumstances in the Browns case are different from most situations. He had to OK the contract.
Going forward for all those who want KS and or AB gone. Obviously that is up to Haslam.
I don't concern myself with things I have no control over. I just look at the team and comment on what I see.
We are not a playoff team. That was clear before the season started. I want to see what we have at years end and then look at the draft.
I will get on board when I believe in a quarterback.
Right now I am a Baker fan. I enjoy watching him. I am rooting for Baker. I like his story.
I would love to see Gabriel succeed. If that falls through I am on to the draft. I don't think Sanders will get a start. If he does then I hope he is great. Although I have doubts.
Mandoza, Moore, and Mateer have my attention. I am going to watch this college class closely.
I don't see behind the curtains. Maybe KS is a hard ass disciplinarian who instills a better attitude in players when they transgress??? But it does not seem like it. Camp Cupcake - the vanilla 'i must do better' press releases .. hell we had a "star" WR on the team who didn't know the play book and seemed to line up pre-snap in the wrong place multiple times in multiple games ... and there was apparently no apparent accountability.
Just my feeling/opinion, but it seems to me that KS is moving away from this. They had anti-Camp Cupcake this year, and I don't know why but it seems like he's becoming less of a pushover with certain players.
He has a ways to go in terms of re-establishing himself as someone that won't let players run wild.
After more than five seasons as a HC it’s hard for the players to change their perception of Stefanski’s leadership.
They know more or less how he react after a loss/win, what he tolerate, his boundaries and how he react when something goes against him. That identity (how the player look at him) has been formed after seasons of ups and downs. You can only lose so much before the players perception change and they don’t any longer see their HC as a winner.
Combine that with strange, sometimes unexpected or flat out bizarre decisions and many of the elder players will lose faith in wining something and slowly lose their respect against the leadership. ’
It's definitely hard to undo first impression and re-establish a different stance/perception.
He came here as a very young head coach. I think he let himself get pushed around a little bit (ex. OBJ, Baker's injury).
I do see him getting more animated on the sidelines. He seemed to take a different tact in TC this year. I'm all for our coaches self-reflecting and improving their coaching chops. I think that's what being a new leader is all about. Might as well happen now while the roster repairs itself from the Watson trade.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
It's definitely hard to undo first impression and re-establish a different stance/perception.
He came here as a very young head coach. I think he let himself get pushed around a little bit (ex. OBJ, Baker's injury).
I do see him getting more animated on the sidelines. He seemed to take a different tact in TC this year. I'm all for our coaches self-reflecting and improving their coaching chops. I think that's what being a new leader is all about. Might as well happen now while the roster repairs itself from the Watson trade.
I agree, but to have that extended time to improve their abilities they need a certain amount of acceptable results. At the moment they don’t fulfill that criteria and the small sample of improvements is more player quality related than coach improvements.
They were tops in the league for the short time we had starters healthy (Oline, Good Baker, etc). They were competent with backup-caliber QBs and a mostly-healthy offense (ex. beating San Fran with PJ Walker).
IMO, the Watson fiasco goes a long way to explain why the offense regressed and is now depleted. I wasn't a fan of not picking up any starter-level Oline help in FA nor making any legit picks to the line in the draft, but so far it's hard to argue against the results of this draft. If we'd missed on picks that would be a different story. The one ?? I'm seeing out of this draft is DG because he's only started 1 game.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Jimmy Haslam told reporters last week that the new head coach would be "heavily involved" in whom the Browns hired to head the football operation, and that each would report to ownership as equals.
Separately, Berry and Stefanski report to Haslam. For good or bad, Haslam provides the oversight and direction for the organization and is the sole power to make decisions regarding either the GM or head coach.
Under Haslam, Berry has the autonomy to decide the roster while Stefanski has the decision making when it comes to who plays, the coaching staff and the details. It is important to note that Haslam has the power, if he chooses, to override those things as Berry and Stefanski’s boss.
With that structure, it has made sense for Stefanski and Berry to be a united front. In many ways, it has led to the initial quote from this article where they say basically the same thing.
I never thought I'd say this but I'm just done with it. They have completely lost my interest. I don't care any more. This constant acceptance of losing and then just making it worse has taken it's toll. I have to hand it to all you guys who manage to hang in there. It would be nice to see the team win some games once in a while. I don't know how they can manage to even market the team in the face of this kind of garbage play.
I'm off now for a badly needed break from the NFL.
I feel the same way, I would never miss a game, draft, anything Browns. Used to call off, schedule vacation days, not do family outings. But that has changed over the last few years. Why should I care about the losing, when the Browns don’t?
I will still watch, but not missing stuff anymore!
Lost in this debate about GM & HC hierarchy - and as it relates to any qualified/experienced GM coming here - pay attention to steve's posts about dead cap hits spread through the next few years.
If I'm contemplating taking a GM job with a team with our dead cap...not being able to pick my HC is not at the top of my list of concerns.
Lost in this debate about GM & HC hierarchy - and as it relates to any qualified/experienced GM coming here - pay attention to steve's posts about dead cap hits spread through the next few years.
If I'm contemplating taking a GM job with a team with our dead cap...not being able to pick my HC is not at the top of my list of concerns.
I don't see any outside coaches and gm's lining up for the Browns job as long as Watson's cap hit hangs out there trying their hands. I think best case scenario is keep Berry as GM and promote Jim Schwartz to Head Coach and have him find a new offensive coordinator. The offense is terrible, and the team has no real QB. Stefanski is clueless on what is a good too great QB. I don't think he should be anywhere near making the decision on which QB to draft in next year's draft.
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money." Margarat Thatcher
We may be coming close enough to the end where that's not as big of a deterrent. The main driver (but not the only one) of our total dead cap hit is Watson, but we have only 2 years, tops, left of having to deal with that. That would be baked into the expectations of a new coach, I would think.
Let's be honest, when has a FO/coach staff NOT resulted in a massive roster overhaul?
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
I think best case scenario is keep Berry as GM and promote Jim Schwartz to Head Coach and have him find a new offensive coordinator. The offense is terrible, and the team has no real QB. Stefanski is clueless on what is a good too great QB. I don't think he should be anywhere near making the decision on which QB to draft in next year's draft.
So you would be comfortable with the same GM, Berry, who put us in the QB situation we're in now, picking yet another first round QB in next years draft? Or are you now claiming Stefanski runs the draft too?
It's not his name on those contracts. It's amazing how people seem to forget that we have an entire scouting department as well as an entire analytics department which Berry is in charge of. It's obvious their decisions are based largely on analytics. So if Stefanski is picking the QB's what in the hell are the analytics and scouting departments, which Berry is in charge of doing?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I think best case scenario is keep Berry as GM and promote Jim Schwartz to Head Coach and have him find a new offensive coordinator. The offense is terrible, and the team has no real QB. Stefanski is clueless on what is a good too great QB. I don't think he should be anywhere near making the decision on which QB to draft in next year's draft.
So you would be comfortable with the same GM, Berry, who put us in the QB situation we're in now, picking yet another first round QB in next years draft? Or are you now claiming Stefanski runs the draft too?
It's not his name on those contracts. It's amazing how people seem to forget that we have an entire scouting department as well as an entire analytics department which Berry is in charge of. It's obvious their decisions are based largely on analytics. So if Stefanski is picking the QB's what in the hell are the analytics and scouting departments, which Berry is in charge of doing?
Stefanski is who his record says he is. His offense is the same no matter who is at QB. 17 pts is max. Only exception is when Jamies Winston was at QB and even then Stefanski admitted he turned over the play calling to Ken Dorsey. Gabriel was Steafnski's hand picked QB and he got everything he wanted Sunday. 0 turnovers, 100+ yards rushing, a defense that held its opponent to under the league average and he still could not win.
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money." Margarat Thatcher
Which great NFL QB since Baker left has Stefanski had that NFL coaches could win with? And you totally dodged every point in my post. You may wish to go back and take a look at the scoring in 2023. It proves your entire premise is bogus. And that was with pulling Flacco off the couch. Those results are what won him coach of the year. Try dealing with some facts for a change. And then you mentioned Winston in 2024.
What evidence do you have that "Gabriel was Steafnski's hand picked QB"? That's yet another thing you just made up.
I'll ask you yet again, do you feel comfortable with the same GM that has put us in QB hell continuing to choose the QB for the Cleveland Browns? Try to focus enough to answer the question this time.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
We’re having our usual yearly problems and issues. Meanwhile, the AFC is wide open this season and we won’t be able to take advantage of it. The Pats, the local team where I live, look like they might be playoff contenders after a couple of poor seasons and here we are with no end in sight for our issues. Just to rub salt in the wound the Jaguars are playing really well at this point and we all know that we have their #1 pick. We could easily be 3-2 and right in the thick of things but not to be. Usual grief being a Browns fan.
I know -this is a great year for a team to take advantage of an injured/struggling AFC. If we would have had our team from a few years ago we'd be a big favorite IMO
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
